Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[Wanka]

I think the combo of jellicent and Aegislash is the support that DEG is talking about. Those two can wall a lot of stuff that threatens out mega sab. Aegi walls stuff like gardevoir and mega diancie (non stab Epower is not Ohkoing anytime soon) and aegi can proceed to threaten out those checks or just straight up take them out with its STAB combo along with a potential WP if diancie does decide to hit it with an earth power. This also applies to kyurem. If i kyurem is going to try and earth power an aegislash it can just SD and boost up along with WP and Proceed to just return sweep dragon teams given rocks are up which really aren't all too difficult to get up with lurk.

Stuff like volcarona can let in a stone edge golurk if you are caught trying to guiver on it and thats never a good time for bug. It can out CM some of the mons above like a nidoking or a slowbro and as for jelly...jelly walls the stuff like keldeo and if they decide to hp grass its not going to do much to begin with and then you let aegislash get in vses mono fighting which again....is never a good time when u let aegislash get in for free against HO types.

I have mixed feelings overall about mega sab though because there are times when it can get overwhelmed but I honestly would not mind if it got banned because the willo wisp recover and team support ghost provides it just makes it so damn hard to kill unless you crit it. On paper annoying 100% does not mean a mon is broken which is exactly what mega sab is, but I don't think anyone would complain if it got banned.

 

[Dece1t]

Hey I noticed the discussion. I'm gonna add my own opinions if thats ok lol.

Mega Altaria: The thing that makes this thing a monster is the fact it has awesome defensive and offensive typing, as well as incredible bulk upon mega evolution, making it very easy to set up a dragon dance, and sweep, or overall make it a tank. As it does give dark quite a hard time, and fire to an extent, I feel it is stoppable. If anything, I'd probs suspect it on flying, and leave it unbanned on dragon (bc it has the greatest niche of a dragon immunity, and dragon's only viable mega). But, for now I'm gonna say Leave Unbanned.

Mega Charizard X: The thing after 1 dragon dance boost is nearly unstoppable, and can plow through almost every type in the game. It runs a bunch of varied sets, including Sp Def, so you never know what to expect from it. As someone mentioned above (sorry too lazy to look up lol), it resists the bolt beam combo, making things a lot easier for flying team, that and it's backed by amazing support provided by skarmory, lando t, ect. Overall, I'd say Suspect on Flying, Leave Unbanned on Fire.

Genesect: Bug is at top usage in the metagame right now, and Genesect is #2 at usage. It can run a billion sets, and you never know what it is unless you see a blue disk on its back. A lot of people have said we shouldn't unban ubers just to make another type better at the cost of the metagame, genesect is the same story, it's not a necessity on bug as it has a ton of great pokes, the only problem I'd see increase for the type would be Dragon, Ground, and Steel. My opinion, Global Ban.

Mega Pinsir: This thing is Bug's best wallbreaker thanks to its great speed tier (sorry mega hera :c), amazing ability, and fantastic bulk. After 1 SD boost, unless its bulky, its a pain in the ass to take out, and you'd probably have to rely on making a lot of sacks. However, I believe it is more handleable compared to genesect, and if we remove both immediately, that may be too much. Leave Unbanned, Suspect at a later date.

Mega Sableye: Everyone pretty much hates versing this thing. For Ghost, it's pretty much the type's on viable dark neutrality, and it provides great utility for the teams. As many people have learned its extremely hard to make 1500's up without it. On Ghost, it isn't broken, Dark is a bit of a different story. As it provides a useful fighting immunity, it has an amazing defensive core in the form of ttar, mandibuzz, and umbreon as well. This is a very hard core to deal with in a lot of cases, and Dark does have other viable mega's that people have used, and still manage to make 1500's, 1600's, and even 1700's. Leave Unbanned on Ghost, Suspect on Dark.

I hope this helps any. I just kinda put my own opinion in, a little too lazy to do replays/calc atm lol.

 

[Acast]

Lol this is funny since everyone wants to ban Zard X because it plows through Electric and somehow Ghost. Well, in ghost, Zard cant setup on Jellicent Gengar Chandelure (if played right) Aegislash does 50-50 golurk so I don't see the point. And dont go by banning it cuz electric has nothing it does. Thundy can twave and Amph lives a +1 DClaw. If we're gonna ban zard we might as well ban Scizor since it 6-0s ice teams. Yeah we all wanna use Mega Aero when Lando is around, or Mega Pidge when we have Clucknadus / Togekiss and we all love a 4x weak to rocks Zard Y right? SAVE ZARD X

Flying teams have plenty of Heal Bell support, so Twave is a temporary solution to a problem that is just going to come back later. Not to mention the Thundurus probably got OHKOd by Zard X as it was using Thunder Wave, so you won't be able to para it again after it gets Heal Bell support.
Also, what calc were you using when you said Ampharos lives a +1 Dragon Claw? Maybe after a Cotton Guard it will, but if it's unboosted, it needs to fully invest in HP and Defense and have a Bold nature just to have a chance of living a +1 Dragon Claw

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 362-428 (94.5 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

And that's assuming the Zard isn't Adamant. It's a guaranteed OHKO with an Adamant nature.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 398-470 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Another thing you forgot when listing off all those Flying megas is that Mega Gyarados can easily take Mega Charizard X's place. Flying is most certainly not starved for good megas and I suggest you stop acting like it is.

 

[Tyke]

Flying teams have plenty of Heal Bell support, so Twave is a temporary solution to a problem that is just going to come back later. Not to mention the Thundurus probably got OHKOd by Zard X as it was using Thunder Wave, so you won't be able to para it again after it gets Heal Bell support.
Also, what calc were you using when you said Ampharos lives a +1 Dragon Claw? Maybe after a Cotton Guard it will, but if it's unboosted, it needs to fully invest in HP and Defense and have a Bold nature just to have a chance of living a +1 Dragon Claw

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 362-428 (94.5 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

And that's assuming the Zard isn't Adamant. It's a guaranteed OHKO with an Adamant nature.

+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Ampharos: 398-470 (103.9 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Another thing you forgot when listing off all those Flying megas is that Mega Gyarados can easily take Mega Charizard X's place. Flying is most certainly not starved for good megas and I suggest you stop acting like it is.

I think Arifeen meant Ampharos lives it if you don't mega-evolve. I'm using Ampharos with Counter to deal with Mega-Zard atm, since Zard can't risk not attacking Ampharos.

But yeah, shaky check at best, and really not at all a reason to keep Zard-x in the meta.

I think the combo of jellicent and Aegislash is the support that DEG is talking about. Those two can wall a lot of stuff that threatens out mega sab. Aegi walls stuff like gardevoir and mega diancie (non stab Epower is not Ohkoing anytime soon) and aegi can proceed to threaten out those checks or just straight up take them out with its STAB combo along with a potential WP if diancie does decide to hit it with an earth power. This also applies to kyurem. If i kyurem is going to try and earth power an aegislash it can just SD and boost up along with WP and Proceed to just return sweep dragon teams given rocks are up which really aren't all too difficult to get up with lurk.

Stuff like volcarona can let in a stone edge golurk if you are caught trying to guiver on it and thats never a good time for bug. It can out CM some of the mons above like a nidoking or a slowbro and as for jelly...jelly walls the stuff like keldeo and if they decide to hp grass its not going to do much to begin with and then you let aegislash get in vses mono fighting which again....is never a good time when u let aegislash get in for free against HO types.

I have mixed feelings overall about mega sab though because there are times when it can get overwhelmed but I honestly would not mind if it got banned because the willo wisp recover and team support ghost provides it just makes it so damn hard to kill unless you crit it. On paper annoying 100% does not mean a mon is broken which is exactly what mega sab is, but I don't think anyone would complain if it got banned.

I would complain :/

 

[feen]

Flying teams have plenty of Heal Bell support, so Twave is a temporary solution to a problem that is just going to come back later. Not to mention the Thundurus probably got OHKOd by Zard X as it was using Thunder Wave, so you won't be able to para it again after it gets Heal Bell support.

What will Togekiss heal bell on against Electric? It's completely situational and it can be prevented from Heal Bell if the Electric user plays aggresively. Again, Ice vs Mega Scizor.

Another thing you forgot when listing off all those Flying megas is that Mega Gyarados can easily take Mega Charizard X's place. Flying is most certainly not starved for good megas and I suggest you stop acting like it is.

Lol this is just hilarious. Mega Gyarados can never take Mega Zard X's place. They have different weaknesses and roles. And with Mega Gyarados you're getting 6-0ed by a Life Orb Thundurus.

 

[1 True Lycan]

Arifeen lets not forget that togekiss is bulky af and can easily heal bell on zapdos, rotom-w, ampharos etc. Also, zard x resists boltbeam and can 2hko most electric types so literally the only thing the electric user can do is priority t-wave. There is a thing called switching out which you may have forgotten about so I doubt the flying user would be foolish enough to let their win condition be neutered so easily.

While Mega Gyarados can't sponge hits like Mega Zard, it is certainly not a bad pokemon. I don't see why you're complaining about flying being weak when it has access to 4 megas (not including zard x and altaria), which I think is more than any other type right now. I think you should actually make some arguments countering the ones we have presented rather than complaining about flying becoming a weak type (lol).

 

[LemonJello88]

My thoughts on Mega-Sableye as a Ghost player:

Mega-Sableye is definitely a great mega on Ghost. Ghost provides the great team support of Jellicent and Aegislash though this core can be worn down with most teams. Aegislash has no viable recovery, and, even though it can be brought in against many Fairies, will eventually die soon. Below, I will provide ways this core on Ghost can be defeated.

• Dragon - Garchomp can beat Aegislash with Earthquake, Altaria beats Sableye (and can easily set up on it with Heal Bell/Refresh). And once Aegislash is weakened, Mega Altaria can set up on it (most don't run a Steel move) and finish it off with an Earthquake.
• Normal - Mega Lopunny destroys this core. Aegislash's King's Shield can stop it somewhat, but it can be predicted. Mega Pidgeot/Diggersby can beat the core as well. Pidgeot 2HKO'ing with Hurricane, and Diggersby being able to come in on Jellicent's Recover and kill it with an Earthquake.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 424-501 (104.9 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

• Grass - Serperior is a huge threat to this core being able to constantly Leaf Storm and HP Fire on Aegislash. Nothing outspeeds it unless you run a Choice Scarf Chandelure.
• Steel - Lum Berry Bisharp pretty much wins against these Pokemon, being able to Knock Off Aegislash even with the King's Shield because of Defiant, and set up an SD vs. anything.
• Fighting - Guts Heracross with Knock Off, SubCM Keldeo can beat this core if Jellicent is Cursed Body.
• Electric - Aegislash gets worn down by Flamethrower from Manectric, and Thundurus's Knock Off. Many special attackers, SubCM Raikou, Mega Ampharos, etc...
• Water - Manaphy Tail Glow's and wins, Azumarill with Knock Off can weaken Aegislash for other set-up sweepers to win. Swift Swim HO can really hurt with Mega Swampert.

I could talk about every type but I think I've proved my point that, on Ghost, Sableye with team support can be defeated and should not be banned (along with the subject that it's Ghost's only viable mega). I might talk about Sableye's role on Dark on another post, but I just wanted to show how Sableye-Mega should not be banned on Ghost.

 

[scpinion]

sqsa

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Frequently Asked Questions
What does [move / item / ability] do?
Check out the Smogon Strategy Dex or Pokemon Showdown's Dex. They have lots of great information on competitive Pokemon battling!

What is banned from Monotype?
The Monotype banlist is on the Smogon Strategy Dex too!

How does Monotype handle Mega-Evolutions that change typing?
Why can't I use Mega-Gyarados on my Dark team?
When using a mega evolution that changes its typing, the base form and mega evolution must retain the typing of your team.

This means you can only use Mega Gyarados on a Mono-Water team because Mega Gyarados and regular Gyarados only share a Water typing. Similarly, Mega-Aggron can only be used on Mono-Steel, Mega Charizard X can only be used on Mono-Fire, and Mega Altaria can only be used on Mono-Dragon.

if you found this then props

(art by Acast)

Welcome to the Monotype metagame discussion thread!

Viability Rankings / Smogon's Strategy Dex / Monotype on Showdown / Usage Stats / Sample Teams​

If you're new to the OM forum, Monotype is a really simple concept; you build a team of six Pokemon sharing one common type and fight against teams with the same restriction. You are allowed to use Pokemon with dual-typing on a team represented by either type, but every other Pokemon must share at least one type with the dual-typed Pokemon. For example, you can use Gyarados, a Water/Flying-type Pokemon, on a Mono-Water or a Mono-Flying team. If you choose Gyarados, you can also use Lanturn, a Water/Electric-type Pokemon, and create a Mono-Water team with the two of them, but you cannot use Zapdos, a Flying/Electric-type Pokemon, on that team because it does not share a type with Gyarados and Lanturn.

Some Mega Evolutions change their typing upon Mega Evolving. When using a Mega Evolution that changes its typing, the Mega Evolution must retain the original typing of the team. In practice, this means is that you can use Mega Gyarados on a Mono-Water team, but you may not use it on a Mono-Flying team (because Mega Gyarados isn't a Flying type) or a Mono-Dark team (because regular Gyarados isn't a Dark type. Similarly, Mega Aggron can only be used on Mono-Steel, despite its base form being allowed on Mono-Rock teams. If you're ever unsure if a Mega Evolution is legal on your team, you can check the legality of your team in the Teambuilder on Pokemon Showdown!

Using six Pokemon of the same type can lead to some interesting team archetypes, and it challenges teambuilders to make sure the common weaknesses a certain type of Pokemon share are covered as best as possible. This metagame allows for all kinds of Pokemon to be viable against top threats, so be imaginative. As you play, you'll find many unique threats that aren't common in the usage based tiers.

The Monotype metagame features builds from all playstyles—Offense, Balance, and Stall. The playstyle will often reflect the Pokemon available on that type. For instance, there are many strong offensive Fighting types, but the type lacks reliable defensive Pokemon. As such, a Stall Fighting-type team is hard to make, while Offensive Fighting is viable. The best Monotype players build and play a wide variety of types, using teams that capitalize on the strengths of an individual type. Forcing your favorite type into an archetype that it will struggle to pull off is a good way to lose matches and get frustrated!

Tiering and Discussion
Monotype has its own tiering, which is based on the tiering philosophy at the end of this post. The metagame is led by a 7-man council, each with an equal say in tiering decisions.

You may find the current banlist in the Monotype entry on the Smogdex.​

This thread is meant for discussion—not just requesting bans! That said, if you feel anything not on these banlists is too overpowered for the meta, this is the place to discuss it. All tiering discussion should be framed within the context of the Monotype Tiering Philosophy, which you can find below. Additionally, if you want to recommend a Pokemon for suspect testing, include some evidence and reasoning why you think said Pokemon is broken. Just saying something like, "I think Kyurem-Black should be banned because it has base 170 Attack." is a post that will get deleted, and it won't get you taken seriously. Back up your claim with replays showing how the Pokemon is overpowered in practice. Tell us how it interacts against other types/playstyles, what checks and counters it, its role on the team type(s) where it's played (going back to the Kyurem-Black example, how does it play on Mono-Ice vs. Mono-Dragon?), and so on. If you need any advice or have any questions on things you think are broken but are unsure what the best way to post is, contact a member of the Monotype Council either through message or on Showdown in the Monotype room.

Monotype Tiering Philosophy

​

1. Keep the banlist simple.
No complex bans!

One of the greatest things about Smogon is how it encourages simplicity in tiering. Not only is this an excellent idea, the Monotype metagame utilizes many of Smogon's resources (PS!, forums, analyses, articles, social media, etc.), so we will adhere to this policy strictly.

2. Ban elements of the metagame that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy.
We will use OU's definitions of broken, uncompetitive, and unhealthy. In addition to those, we will also discuss suspects through the framework of "Does it add to or subract from the metagame?". For an example, see below. This leaves each person open to rationalize their suspect votes within a set framework.

Suspect voters are expected to view and discuss the metagame from the perspective of multiple types, not just a single type. Included in this is the mindset that some matchups are going to be skewed and some types are going to be bad because of the inherent game mechanics.

3. No single type should be overly powerful.
If a type becomes too powerful we will ban an element that nerfs the type and minimizes collateral damage from other types. This rule will be applied within the limitations of rule #1 (no complex bans). Just because a type has the most usage does not mean it is overly powerful.

Example for "Does it add to, or subtract from the metagame?".

Scizor vs. Talonflame in the ORAS metagame

Scizor destroys Ice, Rock, and Fairy. However, were it banned, Ice would still be as bad as it currently is, as would Rock. Scizor is great at exploiting the weaknesses of those teams (poor defensive typings, weak to common priority). Fairy struggles because it lacks Steel resistances that are able to hit Scizor for significant damage. These are flaws of those teams, not Scizor. Other types/'mons exploit these same weaknesses when facing Ice, Rock and Fairy. Additionally, the 15 other types have reliable methods to check Scizor.

Overall, it isn't that Scizor is too strong for the metagame (broken) or undesirable to the point it inhibits skillful play (unhealthy); instead, 3 types are ill-equipped to handle Scizor in addition to many other aspects of the metagame. By banning it we would lose more than we gain.

In comparison, let's look at Talonflame. Talonflame destroyed Grass, Bug, and Fighting. While Grass doesn't hit particularly high usage, it was commonly asserted that neither Bug nor Fighting would do well before Talonflame was banned. After removing this threat, two whole types became viable, as well as easing the pressure on a struggling type.

Talonflame beat these types by exploiting their weakness to Flying-type attacks (like Scizor's Bullet Punch and Ice/Rock/Fairy). However, it did this to most types because it had a small pool of Pokemon (even by OU standards) that reliably checked/countered it. In Monotype, this was exacerbated. Spamming priority Brave Bird was a reliable strategy to beat most teams that didn't naturally resist it (Electric, Rock, Steel). By banning it we eased pressure on team-building for 15 types and promoted the usage of 2-3 types, which created a more diverse metagame. We gained far more than we lost.

​

As a final thought, before you post, think about what you're saying and whether it adds anything to the conversation or sparks discussion. If not, add to it until it does. Let's make an effort to have fun while keeping a certain level of mature conversation!

Special note: This thread is for metagame discussion, not tiering philosophy discussion. If you would like to propose a policy change then please start a private message with the members of the Monotype council. If the council would like to field general discussion on the tiering philosophy then it will make a post requesting input from the community.

2nd Post

Plan for Tiering the Early Metagame​

a) Start with a Minimalistic Banlist
Each member of the council was allowed to interpret this idea as liberally as they liked. We held a vote that included most everything that is currently banned (all cover legends and obviously OP things were excluded). Elements that received 4/7 votes begin the gen7 metagame banned. The primary goal is to allow the community to evaluate these elements in the new metagame. We don't expect all this stuff to be healthy, but we want to test it.

Unbanned: Aegislash, Altarianite, Blaziken(-mega), Charizardite X, Darkrai, Damp Rock, Genesect, Greninja, Metagrossite, Sablenite, Slowbronite, Smooth Rock, Talonflame.

Remains Banned: , Deoxys(-Attack), Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Lucarionite, Mawilite.

New Gen7 Mons that are Banned: Lunala, Solgaleo

b) Aggressively Tier the Early SuMo Metagame via Council Decisions
Every ~7-14 days the council will take a vote on things the community has identified as problematic. Our options will be: ban, no ban, or wait. This way you guys know where the council stands on controversial elements in the early stages of the metagame. This system is predicated on your participation in this thread. If you have problems with elements of the metagame, this is the place to bring them up! We, the council, will be active and engaged so we can work together as a community to rapidly reach a healthy metagame.

Important Note: We're going implement bans without a suspect test in the early stages. Likely, some of you will be unhappy with these bans, and if history is a good indicator, you'll be vocal about it. Please try to keep the discussion mature and civil! These decisions are not irreversible—the metagame will certainly develop over time and we will likely revisit some of our initial bans through the suspect process.

c) Avoid borderline cases in council decisions.
After the initial period where the council makes decisions as described above, we will shift to the standard Smogon suspect process. During the time where bans will come directly from the council, we will avoid borderline cases. To enforce this, any council ban will require a 5 out of 7 supermajority. We want to have a healthy suspect process after the early metagame. This means suspecting troublesome elements that remain in the metagame and potentially revisiting things that were initially banned. Most importantly, this policy allows you, the community, to tier elements that are not blatantly broken.

History of Tiering Decisions for Gen 7 Monotype
None yet!

3rd Post

The Monotype council:

• Acast
• Clearly
• Eien
• iVid
• Paleo
• scpinion
• rnbs

The council leads the metagame, decides what should be suspected, and may implement bans. In general, the council requires a 4/7 majority to start a suspect. If the council can reach a unanimous decision when it comes to tiering, they can consider banning elements without a suspect test, but only after the community has had the opportunity to discuss the element in question.

Council members are meant to be model members of this community, they are selected based on a range of qualities:
– Strong understanding of the Monotype metagame
– Battling prowess
– Insightful forum posts, particularly in discussion threads
– Respectful, mature posting habits
– Forum and Simulator activity

Former members

all falls down
DoW
Anttya
Entei.
Freeroamer
Nani Man

What will Togekiss heal bell on against Electric? It's completely situational and it can be prevented from Heal Bell if the Electric user plays aggresively. Again, Ice vs Mega Scizor.

Lol this is just hilarious. Mega Gyarados can never take Mega Zard X's place. They have different weaknesses and roles. And with Mega Gyarados you're getting 6-0ed by a Life Orb Thundurus.

Aerodactyl would be great for offensively checking that LO Thundy if Zard X/Alt is gone. Adamant Rockslide/Stone Edge is an OHKO and it still outspeeds. It can Taunt the Skarm that switches in as well so it gets whittled. Scarf Lando-T can OHKO Thundy, dgaf about Prankster Twave, and can U-Turn on the predicted switch.

It's not like Flying will be unable to address the things it is weak to w/o Zard or Altaria. It will just be more difficult if Flying doesn't have a Dragon-type to switch into every Electric attack aimed at the team. Flying has 3 (4 if you count lando and lando-t separately) completely viable 'mons that are immune to Electric attacks (Gliscor, Lando, Thundy-T). They just carry the added risk of being weak to Ice (unlike Zard).

I agree, some people are overselling what ZardX can do, but saying Flying will just lose to any 1 Pokemon w/o ZardX is severely underselling the other 5 'mons on the team.

 

[SirSkit]

First off, I think it would be best if we could try handling these things one at a time instead of talking in circles about banning 5 different Pokemon :/ And uh, correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't really matter if the type "needs" it or not, or how it'll end up if the Pokemon in question is banned. IMO if it breaks an absurd amount of types by itself, or, if the type that it's on supports it well enough to do so, it should be banned. And, honestly, I think it would help to actually bring up a few solid replays once in awhile instead of just suggesting what happens "in theory" .3.

I might as well say what I think of what's up for discussion, so uh, here goes.
Mega Sableye (Ghost) - I'm leaning slightly towards keeping it, honestly. Ghost Monotypes gives it amazing support, which is pretty frustrating when Mega Sableye usually has the capability to sweep/wall Electric, some Ice, and some Grass (mainly the "lower tier" types) nearly by itself, while having other teammates to fall back on to help it wall more types pretty well. It also causes Ghost v. Ghost matchups to go to whoever sets up with Mega Sableye and crits first. You can't really ignore the pressure put on Mega Sableye on Ghost though, being the only Ghost that can switch into Dark-type attacks remotely well and can keep hazards off the field. Even if it can handle something 1v1, I think it is a little easier to break with enough pressure and aggresive plays. It counters a lot more stuff 1v1, but if we keep assuming that it's always ~100% HP, then yeah, then it's a lot more powerful from that point of view. So uh, basically, it's a lot easier to break when you take into account how much Ghost Monos rely on it to take Dark-type attacks, keep hazards off the field, etc, but it forms a core deadly enough to still break past some types.
I have some decent replays for Mega Sableye on Ghost, which kinda help a bit.

Replays

(I'm not the best with Ghost and these don't particularly prove my point, but they're replays nonetheless. Oh, and they're old af.)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-233272734 v. Steel
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-238110223 v. Ground
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-228865522 v. (non standard) Psychic
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/monotype-225894496 v. Flying

Mega Sableye (Dark) - I think this may need to be banned, but I don't really have a strong opinion about it. I think the main difference for how Sableye plays out on Dark than on Ghost is that it doesn't have really anything to help with its main weakness, Fairies. However, Dark overall doesn't rely as much on Mega Sableye as Ghost does, since it has a reliable partner in Mandibuzz which also staves off Fighting-types and removes hazards very well, and Tyranitar which obviously handles the majority of Fire-types that Mega Sableye hates. There's also Umbreon with Heal Bell, although that isn't too common. So uh, it's easier to support on Dark aside from the Fairy weakness, but I'm really not fully convinced that it needs a ban.

Mega Altaria - I'm more supportive of a ban for MAlt. This thing is such a great wincon in tons of matchups, it's crazy. The sets that use Cotton Guard + Dragon Dance or have Refresh/Heal Bell to get past stuff that can only get past it with status are too difficult to counter, not to mention that both Flying and Dragon, moreso the former, help it get past stuff that it hates a lot, with Landorus / Thundurus / Skarmory on Flying and Hydreigon / (Mega) Garchomp / Latios / Kyurem-B on Dragon. The bulkier sets are getting a lot more attention recently, and rightfully so, and are proving how Mega Altaria can run several sets pretty effectively, making it hard to deal with.

I don't have anything to add to what's already been said about Mega Pinsir or Mega Charizard X, but I'll just say that I'm neutral with Mega Pinsir, and supporting a ban for Charizard.

 

[feen]

Aerodactyl would be great for offensively checking that LO Thundy if Zard X/Alt is gone. Adamant Rockslide/Stone Edge is an OHKO and it still outspeeds. It can Taunt the Skarm that switches in as well so it gets whittled. Scarf Lando-T can OHKO Thundy, dgaf about Prankster Twave, and can U-Turn on the predicted switch.

It's not like Flying will be unable to address the things it is weak to w/o Zard or Altaria. It will just be more difficult if Flying doesn't have a Dragon-type to switch into every Electric attack aimed at the team. Flying has 3 (4 if you count lando and lando-t separately) completely viable 'mons that are immune to Electric attacks (Gliscor, Lando, Thundy-T). They just carry the added risk of being weak to Ice (unlike Zard).

I agree, some people are overselling what ZardX can do, but saying Flying will just lose to any 1 Pokemon w/o ZardX is severely underselling the other 5 'mons on the team.

The thing is Thundurus can always come in, predict and kill sth, and switch out. Hell, the only thing that can beat thundurus 1v1 is like Stone Edge SpD Gligar lmfao. Mega Aero is a good mega obv, but still lacks the great utility Zard gives flying teams.

 

[Tyke]

The thing is Thundurus can always come in, predict and kill sth, and switch out. Hell, the only thing that can beat thundurus 1v1 is like Stone Edge SpD Gligar lmfao. Mega Aero is a good mega obv, but still lacks the great utility Zard gives flying teams.

Doesn't Articuno bop Thundy 1v1?

I mean so far your arguments for keeping zard-x seem to amount to "sure it sweeps other types easily but tough poop for them" and "if i don't run it i get swept help me". Kind of contradicting.

 

[Anttya]

The thing is Thundurus can always come in, predict and kill sth, and switch out. Hell, the only thing that can beat thundurus 1v1 is like Stone Edge SpD Gligar lmfao. Mega Aero is a good mega obv, but still lacks the great utility Zard gives flying teams.

AV Torn outspeeds and lives a T-bolt, or do damage to it using Knock Off or Heat Wave. Yes, Flying doesn't have any reliable answers to Thundy but it can be revenge killed by pretty much every scarf. It can be t-waved but I'd happily sack one of my scarves so I can kill the most threatening mon. Take Raptor as an example, the Thundy user can either T-wave and die (75% of the time) or switch out and get nuked by a Double Edge.

You can't expect to have an amazing matchup vs every disadvantage, and you're good enough to find ways to win so stop complaining :(

Togekiss can live pretty much every Electric move at full health and it outspeeds stuff like Mega Amphy btw

 

[1 True Lycan]

idk how to quote people but in reply to arifeen:

In my opinion it is healthy if a monotype doesn't have switch ins for everything. Steel has no switchins for keldeo,garchomp,landorus etc. Dark has no fairy switchins, normal has no switchin for keldeo/medicham/other strong fighting types. I think it's a bit unfair for flying users to complain about not having switchins when every other type has at least one pokemon they can't switch in to. The trick is to apply offensive pressure and stop the danger mon from coming in for free. Charizard X destroys so many types, I don't think it's ability to take on electric types should save it from being banned.

 

[feen]

Hmm you have a good point Lycan and Anttya. I'm going to try Flying with some other megas and I'll give my opinion about it. I wouldn't care less about Zard X ban if zapdos Was here haha. Anyways I don't think we should ban zard x if we decide to keep Genesect, Hoopa-U and Mega Sableye to a lesser extent.
Mega Pinsir does not seem broken to me since bug eats grass any day with scizor heracross and pinsir just becomes the finishing touch.

 

[Wanka]

My thoughts on Mega-Sableye as a Ghost player:

Mega-Sableye is definitely a great mega on Ghost. Ghost provides the great team support of Jellicent and Aegislash though this core can be worn down with most teams. Aegislash has no viable recovery, and, even though it can be brought in against many Fairies, will eventually die soon. Below, I will provide ways this core on Ghost can be defeated.

• Dragon - Garchomp can beat Aegislash with Earthquake, Altaria beats Sableye (and can easily set up on it with Heal Bell/Refresh). And once Aegislash is weakened, Mega Altaria can set up on it (most don't run a Steel move) and finish it off with an Earthquake.
• Normal - Mega Lopunny destroys this core. Aegislash's King's Shield can stop it somewhat, but it can be predicted. Mega Pidgeot/Diggersby can beat the core as well. Pidgeot 2HKO'ing with Hurricane, and Diggersby being able to come in on Jellicent's Recover and kill it with an Earthquake.

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 424-501 (104.9 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

• Grass - Serperior is a huge threat to this core being able to constantly Leaf Storm and HP Fire on Aegislash. Nothing outspeeds it unless you run a Choice Scarf Chandelure.
• Steel - Lum Berry Bisharp pretty much wins against these Pokemon, being able to Knock Off Aegislash even with the King's Shield because of Defiant, and set up an SD vs. anything.
• Fighting - Guts Heracross with Knock Off, SubCM Keldeo can beat this core if Jellicent is Cursed Body.
• Electric - Aegislash gets worn down by Flamethrower from Manectric, and Thundurus's Knock Off. Many special attackers, SubCM Raikou, Mega Ampharos, etc...
• Water - Manaphy Tail Glow's and wins, Azumarill with Knock Off can weaken Aegislash for other set-up sweepers to win. Swift Swim HO can really hurt with Mega Swampert.

I could talk about every type but I think I've proved my point that, on Ghost, Sableye with team support can be defeated and should not be banned (along with the subject that it's Ghost's only viable mega). I might talk about Sableye's role on Dark on another post, but I just wanted to show how Sableye-Mega should not be banned on Ghost.

Lemon I trust your judgement because I know you know what you are talking about, but simply just putting that garchomp beats it with eq doesn't mean that dragon easily deals with the support mons that you can use with sabelye. It's not like garchomp is just freely switching into shadow balls and the mono attacking altaria sets, a.k.a The good sets allow aegi to get in for free and either continuously fire off shadow balls which can really punch holes in dragon teams, or sd in its face. You can say that those mons can get weakened but it's not like chomp has this ability to always be 100% healthy and be able to check the support that surrounds sabelye. And to be completely honest, even if garchomp gets in safely against aegi, dragon builds tend to run bulkier chomp spreads and sabelye is bulky enough to just switch in on eqs and proceed to spread willo wisp against dragon teams which really hate the status and it just makes mega sab so much more difficult to kill when it's getting to fire off free willo's.

In regards to fighting.....I 100% agree that guts heracross gives mega sab the yip yop, but you have to look at things from a general perspective. I am yet to see any other heracross set on the ladder besides mega or scarf moxie and I don't doubt that guts is an effective set. And if people are using scarf guts then that brings up an issue that we call centralization which forces players to run specific sets just to simply deal with 1 mon in particular. This applies to mons like keldeo and bisharp as well. If mega sab is forcing you to run those sets because if you don't you lose to it then it calls for an unhealthy metagame when things always have to run a certain set or else they straight up lose to a mon which would happen against fighting. (not so much bisharp and steel)

Having the specs on keldeo is always nice for wall breaking and saying that "oh just run this set" actually is proving my point for me in saying that it is unhealthy because you can't run any other set or else you lose. And the idea of a balanced and fun metagame is not always running the same sets but more so of having the freedom to explore new ideas while maintaining effectiveness. Having to 100% run sub cm keldeo does not reflect this idea and therefore I don't deem it as a good point to keep it unbanned because its not always going to be sub cm and the idea isn't to make it that way. That being said fighting is more than likely going to lose to mega sab...

 

[Vid]

Hoopa-Unbound Matchups

trying to find checks to Hoopa-U probs missed some

Psychic has a terrible time vs Hoopa-U if its scarfed the best way to beat it is with Scarf Victini other than that it OHKO every member on your team bar Slowbro after sr.
Grass really struggles with Hoopa-U the best way to check it is with Breelom's mach punch after defensive drop. Other than that the Life Orb set eats up a hit from grass' faster Mons and OHKOS them.It high SpeDef makes it hard on Grass
Water can deal with Hoopa-U although it does not a have a solid switch. Best check to it is Keldeo in with Keldeo or Mega Sharpedo. Also if it doesn't have t bolt or Focus Blast Mega Gyarados. Also it can run energy ball
Fire has a better matchup than most other types although life orb destroys you. Checks include Darmanitan and Infernape and also Arcanine can take a hit and kill it with E speed plus Flare Blitz
Flying has a counter to Hoopa-U being Mandibuzz but if SR are up and Hoopa-U has HP Ice Flying is screwed. Also Mega Altaria can KO but has to win a 50 50
Dark has Mandibuzz which is one of better checks to Hoopa-U can also burn with Sableye. Dark is ok vs Hoopa-U
Fighting has lots of priority plus Keldeo and Terrakion. Overall fighting can deal with Hoopa-U with ease.
Ground has no solid switch in for Hoopa-U can check it with Exacadril. If its not Scarf then Mega Garchomp. Ground can deal with Hoopa
Fairy has a shaky matchup vs Hoopa-U Gunk Shot ohkos half of fairy's Mons with a Life Orb. Diancie is a solid check as well as Klefiki.
Rock has physically defensive Cradily and Terrakion as well as Tyrantiar which can take it so it is very beatable.
Ice has Avalugg to take on physical moves but if its mixed with lo. Weavile can be a solid check as well as Mega Abama
Steel has mega Scizor which can tank hit but if it has fire punch then your team is in trouble. Doublade maybe after couple defensive drops
Dragon rocky helmet chomp and can cover with random scarfers as well as Mega Altaria Hoops-U is can be dealt with Dragon
Bug has no switchins to Hoopa-U best way is using Scolipede, Scarf Gene with U-turn, and Scarf Herracross. Also Choice Ban Scizor can work.
Ghost struggles with Hoopa-U since Hyperspace Fury breaks through subs as well as protection Aegislash is left to die vs Hoopa-U. Best way to check is to live a hit with Mega Sableye and hit it with Foul Play or to weaken it a bit and pick it off with shadow sneak. Also ghost doesn't have a switch in to Hoopa-U or a way to revenge kill it without letting Mega Sableye take damage.
Electric struggles to kill Hoopa-U because of its good SpeDef. Also it has no switch in. Best way to sack something then burn it with Rotom-W or Paralyze it with Thundurs-I
Normal has the bunny to Outspeed and kill it but Hoopa-U breaks the core of Chansey plus p2 with ease. Also it can run sub to avoid status.
Poison Scolipede is probably best check also Drapion seems like a decent check to it as well. Poison does somewhat struggles with Hoopa-U also Mega Beedrill seems like a decent check if its not scarfed.

Calcs

*note i changed power of Night Slash to 100 BP and Hoopa's type to Psychic Dark
Psychic
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 335-398 (85 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 408-484 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Hoopa Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Mega Gardevoir: 262-309 (94.5 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO (for choice scarf users)
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 315-374 (70.9 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Alakazam Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 144-170 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
Grass
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 333-395 (94.6 - 112.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 346-408 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ludicolo: 331-390 (90.9 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cradily: 255-302 (67.8 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 166-196 (55.1 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 260-307 (89.3 - 105.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 259-305 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 153-181 (50.8 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Water
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 192-227 (47.8 - 56.6%) -- 35.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Lanturn: 386-454 (85 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 87-103 (28.9 - 34.2%) -- 2.8% chance to 3HKO
+3 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 217-256 (72 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Fire
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 269-317 (78.1 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa in Sun: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-H: 172-203 (56.5 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 242-286 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Flying
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 250-296 (59.1 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 306-360 (101.6 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Fighting

Calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 348-411 (115.6 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 330-388 (109.6 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ground
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 183-216 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 478-567 (149.8 - 177.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 270-320 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 230-270 (54.7 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gastrodon: 235-278 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (if physical defensive)
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Gastrodon: 341-402 (80 - 94.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Fairy
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 351-413 (89 - 104.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Gunk Shot vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 476-562 (131.1 - 154.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 201-237 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Rock
Look at Terrakion and Cradily Calcs from earlier
0 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 186-220 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 473-562 (117.3 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ice
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 329-387 (109.3 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
if scarfed needs focus blast or drain punch to beat weavile
Steel
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 235-278 (61 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 238-281 (71.2 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Dragon
Don't Think i need because dragon hard hitting scarfers to check it as well as Mega Altaria
Bug
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Volcarona: 265-313 (71 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 408-480 (135.5 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 259-305 (91.5 - 107.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 421-499 (139.8 - 165.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 271-321 (90 - 106.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
any bug type that outspeeds it can kill it with a stab bug move
Ghost
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 351-413 (108.3 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 156-184 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 182-216 (60.4 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Electric
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 220-259 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 220-261 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 193-228 (64.1 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Ampharos: 187-220 (48.8 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 239-282 (62.2 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 191-226 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 298-352 (79.6 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Poison
Psychic kills almost everything
252 Atk Drapion Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 208-246 (69.1 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 1575-1856 (523.2 - 616.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Normal
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 330-390 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 329-387 (46.7 - 54.9%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa: 370-436 (122.9 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hoopa-U has no switch ins for almost every monotype some monotypes struggle to check it. Also this Pokemon plays mind games because you don't know if it has the life orb for more power or if it has choice Scarf when you see it on the battle field. Also Hoopa-U is on two amazing types dark and psychic which both provides it with excellent support. On Psychic mons like Mega Gard, Mega Medi, Victini, Mew, Slowbro, Meloetta, Deoxys-s, etc. On Dark it has mons like Tyrantiar, Mega Sableye, Mandibuzz. On Psychic Hoopa-U gets much better support although. I think Hoopa-U should be Ban from Both Dark and Psychic Monotype for it beating many types without effort and not having a solid counter and some types being left without a check. Overall I am on the boat for Banning Hoopa-U on both Psychic and Dark.

 

[Kammi]

Lemon I trust your judgement because I know you know what you are talking about, but simply just putting that garchomp beats it with eq doesn't mean that dragon easily deals with the support mons that you can use with sabelye. It's not like garchomp is just freely switching into shadow balls and the mono attacking altaria sets, a.k.a The good sets allow aegi to get in for free and either continuously fire off shadow balls which can really punch holes in dragon teams, or sd in its face. You can say that those mons can get weakened but it's not like chomp has this ability to always be 100% healthy and be able to check the support that surrounds sabelye. And to be completely honest, even if garchomp gets in safely against aegi, dragon builds tend to run bulkier chomp spreads and sabelye is bulky enough to just switch in on eqs and proceed to spread willo wisp against dragon teams which really hate the status and it just makes mega sab so much more difficult to kill when it's getting to fire off free willo's.

In regards to fighting.....I 100% agree that guts heracross gives mega sab the yip yop, but you have to look at things from a general perspective. I am yet to see any other heracross set on the ladder besides mega or scarf moxie and I don't doubt that guts is an effective set. And if people are using scarf guts then that brings up an issue that we call centralization which forces players to run specific sets just to simply deal with 1 mon in particular. This applies to mons like keldeo and bisharp as well. If mega sab is forcing you to run those sets because if you don't you lose to it then it calls for an unhealthy metagame when things always have to run a certain set or else they straight up lose to a mon which would happen against fighting. (not so much bisharp and steel)

Having the specs on keldeo is always nice for wall breaking and saying that "oh just run this set" actually is proving my point for me in saying that it is unhealthy because you can't run any other set or else you lose. And the idea of a balanced and fun metagame is not always running the same sets but more so of having the freedom to explore new ideas while maintaining effectiveness. Having to 100% run sub cm keldeo does not reflect this idea and therefore I don't deem it as a good point to keep it unbanned because its not always going to be sub cm and the idea isn't to make it that way. That being said fighting is more than likely going to lose to mega sab...

Just a quick note, I feel that regular Sableye + Jellicent core sweeps Fighting just as easily if not more easily than mega-Sableye does- an extremely physically biased type is crippled greatly by Will-o-Wisp spreaders unless you run a Guts 'mon, and Jellicent does wall every Keldeo set (bar Sub/CM). Also, Dragon vs Ghost is a pretty even matchup, although Mega Altaria can really hurt a Ghost team. Shadow balls don't usually "punch holes into dragon teams" as you said, because Goodra and Hydreigon can both absorb Ghost moves fairly easily, and nothing on Ghost comes in for free against Hydreigon.

That being said, I feel that while the Aegislash/Jellicent/Sableye core that is being argued about is very effective in most cases, almost all types have a way to break this core due to Aegislash's lack of recovery, Jellicent's weakness to status and knock off, and Sableye's weakness to Fairy and strong special attacks- if you break one of the 'mons, you lose an essential part of the core and the rest of the battle is downhill from there. Most types have easy answers to one or two of the mons (Fire beats Mega Sab and Aegislash, extreme trouble with Jellicent; likewise Electric does very well against Aegislash and Jellicent but has issues with Mega Sableye) and so I feel that the core itself is not broken enough to have Mega Sableye banned- it's just an effective way to run a Ghost monotype.

Meanwhile, Ghost doesn't have the offensive pressure needed to get rid of threats on the opposing side. Gengar is extremely effective with its stellar speed tier and great sp. Atk (as well as movepool) but its defenses are paper thin. This along with LO damage (most common item) means that one hit is often enough to take down Gengar. Meanwhile, Chandelure has amazing sp. Atk as well but is almost always choice locked because of its less-than-great 80 base speed, meaning its easy to force out or switch in something to absorb a hit. On the physical side, Ghost is extremely lacking. Honestly, Aegislash/Doublade are probably the only things I would come close to calling "physical sweepers", and if you're running full physical Aegislash, it's not going to be a huge part of the defensive core, which negates the whole argument about Mega Sableye support in the first place. The offensive support for Mega Sab is really what I think takes it to another level on Dark (besides the overall Fairy weakness, as mentioned before by someone else).

 

[Zard1234]

Ok well time to defend Charizard X.As we all know Charizard X is arguably the best dragon dancer in the game right now and it can run various sets from offensive to defensive.Banning Charizard X is just not worth it.By banning it flying will be nerfed a lot.The zapdos ban has affected flying since before that flying was one of the best types to use in monotype and it has the almost unbeatable skamory and zapdos core.Without zapdos flying lacks good defog users.The only pokemon that can use defog effectively are togekiss,mandibuzz and skarmory.Banning Charizard X is not a good move since any pokemon with special attacks can beat skamory and mandibuzz(unless if you are running sp.def sets) and physical attacks can beat togekiss(unless if togekiss runs the physically defensive set) therefore making charizard vulnerable to stealth rocks.Not only that there are several pokemon that can stop charizard x from sweeping.Some of these are:Slowbro,thundurus-i,klefki,liepard,heatran,whimsicott.

Slowbro can easily take a dragon claw from +1 Charizard X and use thunder wave to cripple it

Thundurus-i has access to prankster and thunder wave therefore stopping charizard x from sweeping

Klefki has access to prankster, thunder wave AND reflect therefore it can either use thunder wave and stop charizard x or it can set up reflect and let its teamates take charizard x down

Liepard also has access to prankster and thunder wave and can stop charizard x from sweeping

Heatran can actually stop Charizard X as long as it has air balloon and roar.Heatran easily survives a dragon claw from charizard x and it's innume to flare blitz due to it's ability flash fire.Eq is a move that people usually run on charizard x but it does not affect heatran as long as it has the air balloon.Also if charizard x is at low health heatran can ko it with earth power.

Whimsicott may seem like an odd choice but since it has access to prankster and stun spore it can stop Charizard X from sweeping.

 

[DoW]

Ok well time to defend Charizard X.As we all know Charizard X is arguably the best dragon dancer in the game right now and it can run various sets from offensive to defensive.Banning Charizard X is just not worth it.By banning it flying will be nerfed a lot.The zapdos ban has affected flying since before that flying was one of the best types to use in monotype and it has the almost unbeatable skamory and zapdos core.Without zapdos flying lacks good defog users.The only pokemon that can use defog effectively are togekiss,mandibuzz and skarmory.Banning Charizard X is not a good move since any pokemon with special attacks can beat skamory and mandibuzz(unless if you are running sp.def sets) and physical attacks can beat togekiss(unless if togekiss runs the physically defensive set) therefore making charizard vulnerable to stealth rocks.Not only that there are several pokemon that can stop charizard x from sweeping.Some of these are:Slowbro,thundurus-i,klefki,liepard,heatran,whimsicott.

Slowbro can easily take a dragon claw from +1 Charizard X and use thunder wave to cripple it

Thundurus-i has access to prankster and thunder wave therefore stopping charizard x from sweeping

Klefki has access to prankster, thunder wave AND reflect therefore it can either use thunder wave and stop charizard x or it can set up reflect and let its teamates take charizard x down

Liepard also has access to prankster and thunder wave and can stop charizard x from sweeping

Heatran can actually stop Charizard X as long as it has air balloon and roar.Heatran easily survives a dragon claw from charizard x and it's innume to flare blitz due to it's ability flash fire.Eq is a move that people usually run on charizard x but it does not affect heatran as long as it has the air balloon.Also if charizard x is at low health heatran can ko it with earth power.

Whimsicott may seem like an odd choice but since it has access to prankster and stun spore it can stop Charizard X from sweeping.

Flying is incredibly good at stopping SR. The huge number of defoggers, combined with Flying's overall presence (whether offensive or defensive, it's often got the momentum on its side) means that keeping stealth rock up on the field against flying is one of the hardest things to do. Stealth Rock was also extremely good against Talon; that's not around any more as it was simply too easy to stop it losing 50% of its health every time it switched in.
Moreover, Zard X almost always runs roost, meaning it can switch in twice on rocks and still heal up to full in one move.

Of the mons you listed, only Slowbro is a counter and many teams, such as electric or ghost, simply don't have an answer so listing a few responses doesn't help all that much.
Your idea of a counter generally seems to be a prankster paralyser, which doesn't help when zard x proceeds to OHKO it then switch out to togekiss for a heal bell. Heatran's balloon is only going to work once, as well. Being able to phaze once (and that's hoping it dd's rather than dclaws when you switch in) is barely a reliable counter.

tl;dr these aren't counters other than slowbro, Zard X (which I've been using for over a year) remains broken.

 

[Acast]

Ok well time to defend Charizard X.As we all know Charizard X is arguably the best dragon dancer in the game right now and it can run various sets from offensive to defensive.Banning Charizard X is just not worth it.By banning it flying will be nerfed a lot.The zapdos ban has affected flying since before that flying was one of the best types to use in monotype and it has the almost unbeatable skamory and zapdos core.Without zapdos flying lacks good defog users.The only pokemon that can use defog effectively are togekiss,mandibuzz and skarmory.Banning Charizard X is not a good move since any pokemon with special attacks can beat skamory and mandibuzz(unless if you are running sp.def sets) and physical attacks can beat togekiss(unless if togekiss runs the physically defensive set) therefore making charizard vulnerable to stealth rocks.Not only that there are several pokemon that can stop charizard x from sweeping.Some of these are:Slowbro,thundurus-i,klefki,liepard,heatran,whimsicott.

Slowbro can easily take a dragon claw from +1 Charizard X and use thunder wave to cripple it

Thundurus-i has access to prankster and thunder wave therefore stopping charizard x from sweeping

Klefki has access to prankster, thunder wave AND reflect therefore it can either use thunder wave and stop charizard x or it can set up reflect and let its teamates take charizard x down

Liepard also has access to prankster and thunder wave and can stop charizard x from sweeping

Heatran can actually stop Charizard X as long as it has air balloon and roar.Heatran easily survives a dragon claw from charizard x and it's innume to flare blitz due to it's ability flash fire.Eq is a move that people usually run on charizard x but it does not affect heatran as long as it has the air balloon.Also if charizard x is at low health heatran can ko it with earth power.

Whimsicott may seem like an odd choice but since it has access to prankster and stun spore it can stop Charizard X from sweeping.

Using an argument like "Flying will be nerfed if Charizard X is banned so we should keep it" is not a good idea, nor does it make any sense. If Charizard X is banned, it will be because it's too broken to allow it in the metagame anymore. The viability of Flying teams is the least of our concern right now, especially considering they are the second most used type out of all 18 types. If Char X gets banned, it's possible that Flying teams might drop down one more rung on the usage statistics, but that still leaves it at #3 out of 18. Even if Flying gets nerfed, the type will survive and it will prosper without Zard X, so arguing that Flying will be nerfed too much without it is pointless. I don't see why anyone would be concerned for Flying's viability when it's one of the best types right now.

 

[Ishtaria]

hihi I'm Ishy-Hime, a.k.a. Ishtaria! Since we are talking about possible suspects, bans, and such, I thought I would share my ideas about it.

These reasonings are and will be from a Dragon User's perspective, so there's that!

We'll start things off with a "pressing issue", a.k.a. Mega Altaria. To keep these short I'll just do one mon at a time.

Mega Altaria: First things first, Mega Altaria (imo) is an answer to the current metagame's condition. But it still has multiple counters already, like Sash Bisharp, Genesect, Scarf Magnezone, Zard X (even though I don't have issues with it, it still is a counter), Mega Gardevoir, Mega Diancie, Heatran, etc., so banning it would be somewhat unnecessary. Now it can cause unfair matchups, but it also can cause hindering matchups for the user as well, which I believe people forget. Most Mega Alt sets are the usual DD/Roost/Return or Frustration/Refresh or Heal Bell (player's preference tbh) and as for spreads, it's either King DDD (Defensive Dragon Dance) or 64HP/192Atk/252Spe. These spreads/sets are based off of the majority of Mega Altarias. I do understand that some types struggle against Mega Alt, which can cause centralization to stop it, and I do agree that Mega Alt should be suspected, but it shouldn't be a top priority. As for matchups go (I am not counting the Dragon Matchup, since that is stupid tbh, you have scarfs and banded Dragonite to handle Mega Alt and Mega Alt beats Mega Alt so no point. Plus I'm only doing the 3 matchups I feel Mega Alt simply takes over in):

Electric: So it's not that much of a secret that Electric struggles against Dragon (Fire also struggles with Dragon, but not Mega Altaria), so why is Mega Alt a problem for this matchup? Solely from the extra bulk it obtains from Mega Evolution and the ability to Dragon Dance is what makes the matchup more of an issue, but there are ways around it. Mega Alt can cause centralization with Electric, but this centralization could possibly help the type to progress in the metagame. Oh and these calcs are BEFORE a Dragon Dance AND without Rocks up.

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 254-300 (82.7 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Mega Altaria: 161-190 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 144-169 (47.5 - 55.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Okay so here are some calcs for Electric v Mega Alt on Dragon. The issue with the Thundurus calc is, Mega Alt's Return does at least 90.3% so the Thundurus Calc is to weaken Mega Altaria for later on. Bulky Rotom-W can tank a return, burn it, and Pain Split the Mega Alt. Most Mega Altaria's don't run Earthquake from what I have seen, so your Magnezone should take a few Returns from that Mega Alt.

Fighting: Okay so Fighting can easily get swept by a Mega Alt AFTER two Dragon Dances and Rocks ofc. Why two? Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Icy-Wind Keldeo, and Sash/Scarf Gunk Shot Infernape. Although Gunk Shot Infernape isn't as common, it still is a counter to Mega Altaria. Mega Medicham can counter Mega Alt to an extend with Fake Out/Bullet Punch. Again, Fighting does have troubles with Dragon, Mega Alt just helps Dragon out. Calcs stay the same, before DD and no Rocks. Mega Medicham's work on Mega Altaria:

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 74-88 (24.1 - 28.6%) -- 98.3% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 148-176 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO

Although this combo does not knock out Mega Altaria, you can still work around it, by managing two fake outs and a bullet punch and bop there goes Mega Alt. This is at risk for sacking one mon to take out the biggest threat for Fighting. Now Scarf Keldeo isn't going to OHKO Mega Altaria with Icy Wind, but it slows down and weakens Mega Altaria enough for Mega Medicham to clean or even your Gunk Shot Infernape. If Infernape is sashed, then it can take Mega Altaria out before it gets knocked out.

252 Atk Infernape Gunk Shot vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 206-244 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Although this isn't common, centralization will occur until a type has a definitive counter to a certain pokemon.

Dark: Don't get me wrong when I said Mega Alt quite easily can sweep Dark, but Dark does have counters for it. There's Weavile, Bisharp, and Drapion. So in XY, Dragon had issues with Dark with Greninja and Sableye. Now that the tables are turned, Mega Alt with at least 2 DDs can sweep Dark without possibly getting knocked out. Weavile is seeing a lot more play in Dark which hinders a Mega Altaria that hasn't set-up. Even Sash Weavile (without rocks) can bop a Mega Alt. Calc Time! No Rocks, No Dragon Dances! First up, LO Weavile:
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 151-179 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 315-374 (102.6 - 121.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

So saying Dark has nothing for Mega Altaria is a lie. Weavile with Speed and Attack and stop Dragon easily which is why Mega Alt can't stop Dark as easy as people think! Bisharp!

252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 258-306 (84 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 204-240 (75 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Although in this circumstance Mega Alt outspeeds, Bisharp does have access to priority moves like Sucker Punch and, if predicting a switch, Pursuit. Bisharp is one of Altaria's biggest concerns that it can handle. Now time for the last calc for Mega Altaria, the somewhat common calcs of Drapion!

252 Atk Drapion Poison Jab vs. 64 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 188-224 (61.2 - 72.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Drapion: 186-220 (66.1 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Drapion wins in this circumstance due to it's speed, and before you claim that EQ can OHKO, it actually only does 0.8% more. The Calcs that I have done, simply prove that even unfair matchups can stop Mega Altaria. The calcs only prove that Mega Alt isn't broken, it's just really good for the types that can use it.

Dragon: Suspect Mega Altaria if needed
Flying: Leave Mega Alt as is

If you read all of this, Thanks for hearing my reasonings for Mega Altaria staying in Monotype!

tl;dr Mega Altaria is a problem for some types and there are ways around Mega Alt, suspecting it on Dragon should only be if necessary and Flying doesn't need nor uses Mega Altaria as much as Mega Charizard X, so banning/suspecting it on Flying would be pointless.

 

[Neimenko]

We'll start things off with a "pressing issue", a.k.a. Mega Altaria. To keep these short I'll just do one mon at a time.

The thing is, Altaria isn't a mon that mega evolves and starts hitting everything with return/frustration. It will try to set up, and against a lot of teams it has chances to set up, in all of those calcs altaria is at +0. I feel like one of the biggest problems with altaria is its unpredictabillity. You can never be sure which set it runs and when you figure out it might be too late. For example I made a flying mono (without zardx) yesterday and a new alt so I decided to test it. After a few matches I encountered a dragon mono. I sadly lost my thundurus to a stupid prediction early game but I thought my gyarados was a check to altaria since it carries ice fang. Well guess what? I was wrong. I kept gyarados until late game, then altaria came in. It turned out to be a cotton guard set. Only set that beats my gyarados. There are more examples of this. I've seen players bringing Ferrothorn or Scizor on an expected return just to take a fire blast to the face. Mons who rely on will o wisp are shaky checks too. Rotom can will o wisp altaria sure, mons such as Sableye can too, but if Altaria has refresh/heal bell they just become set up fodders. Weavile gets outsped by +1 altaria and altaria can set up on dark's defogger, Mandibuzz. Don't forget the healing wish support latias provides so if you manage to get rid of bisharp and weavile which can carry sash and are checks (not counters) to altaria if rocks aren't up, you can just use healing wish and bring altaria back. In dragon vs. dragon Dragonite isn't the luckiest check, since +1 Altaria does have a chance to OHKO it through the multiscale. I absoultely love using dragon mono, it's one of my favourites and I do think it'll get nerfed by altaria ban. I tried making some dragon monos without mega altaria and they were horrible. But that's not an issue currently and I do think that mega altaria is too good to stay in this metagame. That's why I want it to get banned globally, in fact, I think it's even more broken on flying. It's not used so much yeah, but flying has great defensive core and heal bell support.

 

[Ishtaria]

The thing is, Altaria isn't a mon that mega evolves and starts hitting everything with return/frustration. It will try to set up, and against a lot of teams it has chances to set up, in all of those calcs altaria is at +0. I feel like one of the biggest problems with altaria is its unpredictabillity. You can never be sure which set it runs and when you figure out it might be too late. For example I made a flying mono (without zardx) yesterday and a new alt so I decided to test it. After a few matches I encountered a dragon mono. I sadly lost my thundurus to a stupid prediction early game but I thought my gyarados was a check to altaria since it carries ice fang. Well guess what? I was wrong. I kept gyarados until late game, then altaria came in. It turned out to be a cotton guard set. Only set that beats my gyarados. There are more examples of this. I've seen players bringing Ferrothorn or Scizor on an expected return just to take a fire blast to the face. Mons who rely on will o wisp are shaky checks too. Rotom can will o wisp altaria sure, mons such as Sableye can too, but if Altaria has refresh/heal bell they just become set up fodders. Weavile gets outsped by +1 altaria and altaria can set up on dark's defogger, Mandibuzz. Don't forget the healing wish support latias provides so if you manage to get rid of bisharp and weavile which can carry sash and are checks (not counters) to altaria if rocks aren't up, you can just use healing wish and bring altaria back. In dragon vs. dragon Dragonite isn't the luckiest check, since +1 Altaria does have a chance to OHKO it through multiscale. I absoultely love using dragon mono, it's one of my favourites and I do think it'll get nerfed by altaria ban. I tried making some dragon monos without mega altaria and they were horrible. But that's not an issue currently and I do think that mega altaria is too good to stay in this metagame. That's why I want it to get banned globally, in fact, I think it's even more broken on flying. It's not used so much yeah, but flying has great defensive core and heal bell support.

Hence why I said, these spreads/sets are the most common, and at times, you do have to just Mega and attack, I am basing the calcs off of a very common Mega Alt spread with possible counters. Plus, if you have Alt out on a Weavile without DD-ing, you just have to hope he misses/goes for Ice Shard and hit. I did acknowledge that there is other sets, but focused on the most used ones.

 

[1 True Lycan]

You said yourself that the most common set for mega altaria is defensive dragon dance. What is the point of presenting calcs for altaria without it using dragon dance then? Altaria finds multiple opportunities to DD on dark and weavile is no longer a check at +1.

 

[scpinion]

Hence why I said, these spreads/sets are the most common, and at times, you do have to just Mega and attack, I am basing the calcs off of a very common Mega Alt spread with possible counters. Plus, if you have Alt out on a Weavile without DD-ing, you just have to hope he misses/goes for Ice Shard and hit. I did acknowledge that there is other sets, but focused on the most used ones.

I think the point is Alt will almost always be at +1 by the time these "counters" come in. Bisharp, Drapion, Weavlie, and Infernape all lose to +1 Alt. No Altaria user is sending it in on these Pokemon and the team support on both Dragon and Flying can pressure the Pokemon you listed.