Hey, let's not do personal attacks, bc it only makes people pissed off anyways, starting a new topic, Fire had a pretty bad decline in usage this month, tbh I'm kinda curious as to why because it's actually a pretty decent type. Kaiser mentioned he predicted a drop but not nearly as bad as how it happened. Just a thought
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Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion
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Just think about it in a way of battling. Sure you have taunt sableye, but when your sableye isn't out? Permanent hazards unless you run defog drifblim which isn't a great option, and when you are in a meta with no Sablenite most will predict a taunt and strike you. Also i was saying that Gardevoir is more than enough of a check for a type that cannot hit Sableye with STAB (immunity). It's called preserving your win condition. And I never said anything about hoopa sweeping being situational. Hoopa is a huge threat to ghost. What I don't understand is if people say normal Sableye is just as viable why ban mega?
"What I don't understand is if people say normal Sableye is just as viable why ban mega?"
First of all the obvious notice is stat difference, sableye doesnt have much going for it except prankster which is one of the best abilities in the game, mega sab has crazy defense and sp.d to tank hits. Second, i know taunt sab is as good, but magic bounce paranoids lots of users in dealing with non attacking moves to the opponent, it tricks them and leaves ditches in their holes. I think the major reason competitive users see it as "unbalanced" is how much its helping a type, dark now has crazy coverage defensively and offensively (decreased slightly since its been used too much, making players notice same sets), bulk contributes majorly and ability can change everything (Ex: Drought Mega char y, gives fire a huge boost in their attacks, changing how fire used to play). The Meta right now is confused on what to decide with the choice in ban or no ban, like i said, if ban we could try to see if anything changes, if not, we deal with mega sab i suppose. So my answer to the question is that, reg sab is viable not AS viable and much helpful than its mega which responds to a different play style and strategy thats better than its regular form.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
Ok, so I know I've made my opinion on the subject of Sablenite clear to a number of people, but not actually explained why it's my opinion per se. There's also been a few comments made behind closed doors along the lines of "oh look dow's defending sab again what a meme", and "maybe he's gotten past his best at this point", or even "the council has a few veterans on it that perhaps should retire", so allow me to defend my position once and for all.
So to start with: the tiering philosophy.
#3 Doesn't seem to be particularly relevant either. Neither Dark nor Ghost is exactly hugely OP, and while their nerfs would make Psychic stronger I'm unconvinced that they would do so to an extent where Psychic would be broken.
#2 is somewhat more complex. Let's take this one step at a time.
Firstly, we ban things that are broken. From OU's definitions:
We also ban things that are uncompetitive. Again, OU's definitions:
And then there's unhealthy. The OU definition:
Ok, so here we get into the real meat of the tiering philosophy:
Would banning Sablenite add or subtract from the metagame?
I'll start by saying that people's initial knee-jerk reaction might be "ban it, it's annoying" isn't relevant. We're not going to nerf stall because it's annoying, and that's not the reason that either Baton Pass or Swagger were banned. What we're looking at is the health of the metagame and how each type fares with or without a ban in place. So let's start with the obvious:
Dark doesn't like the ban. Why? Well, obviously it's losing a very nice mon. Obviously it's not going to be rock if Sablenite gets banned as lefties sable is still perfectly usable, however it does struggle more without M-Sable. I doubt I need to prove that m-sable is bulkier than sable but some calcs anyway:
252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Obviously it's going to get burned at some point in any case, but if you're switching in to force it out the extra damage is really going to add up. So overall, losing sablenite is a minor loss for Dark. Usage is a reasonable metric for overall viability, and I'd expect Dark to fall to around where Ghost currently is - usable, but not your first choice for a team and probably allowed in the lesser used types mono tier that was played in a bo3 tour a while back.
Next, let's look at Ghost. Currently, ghost isn't the most viable type around, but at the same time it's certainly usable. I built a Ghost team to play in the current round of the Mono Brigade tour that it doesn't look like I'll end up playing. The type might have a few negative matchups, but honestly it holds its own decently, if not amazingly, against the most used types. With an M-sab ban, not only would things like M-gyara, Hoopa-U, Banded Knock Off mons like Mamoswine etc. be even more of a threat, but the type's overall viability would plummet. Yes, Aegislash is a good mon, and there's also mons like Gengar at your disposal. Yes, Aegi can generally check those things that M-Sab is used to counter. But it lacks recovery, and is very easy to wear down if the team support isn't good enough - which it wouldn't be. There'd be pretty much no hazard control (no, taunt sab isn't good enough, it can't switch in on a garchomp that's about to set rocks and at the same time stop it setting rocks), and it would have to come in on a huge number of threats rather than just the few that it covered and m-sab didn't, allowing it to be slowly beaten over the course of maybe 10 turns. At the same time, teams with plenty of strong attackers such as Dragon could wear it down very easily, even if just taking 30% off its health every time they come in until it's gone. Honestly, Ghost would be about on par with Rock. Having used Rock, I can say it has some usable strats and usable mons (sticky web + m-diancie and banded terrakion can work very well), but it just doesn't have what it takes to be a usable type overall. That's about where Ghost would be. This to me seems like a very big hit for ghost.
Next, we'll look at the effect of a ban on the other types. As has been shown by the intesive research of a vast number of people, every type has mons that can deal with M-sab, and an extremely large majority of types either have such mons that would be extremely good in any case (e.g. Bandnite) or would struggle with a large number of things in the meta (e.g. Electric). Getting rid of M-sab would lighten teambuilding a little, perhaps. I might not run taunt on my m-gyara, or change a Keldeo set from SubCM to something else, but frankly those are perfectly viable in any case. I see no major difference between that and running Iron Head Scarf Kyu-b to deal with the M-Garde that would otherwise 6-0 my dragon team. Frankly, in terms of teambuilding there doesn't seem to be that much difference between M-sab and M-garde. They both need specific checks on a few teams, and perhaps require you to change the set of one of your pokes a little to be able to deal with it a bit better.
Ok, but surely it's different in terms of the battles then? Well, M-sab will sweep if you let it set up on you, and if you're in a tough situation or your team's weak to it that setup could potentially be as little as one well-placed CM when you predict it to WoW instead. Meanwhile, if you're not careful around M-garde it'll come in and get a free KO on a poke of your choice. It's different, sure, but I wouldn't say M-sab is particularly worse, just different due to being far more stally. Generally M-sab needs one or two pokes taken out (or at least crippled) before it can start setting up to sweep. That's really no different from any other setup sweeper.
But getting somewhat more back on-topic. The teams other than Ghost and Dark would in most cases experience a minor positive. It's possible that this positive would outweigh the negative for Ghost and Dark, but honestly I've yet to see a convincing argument saying this is the case.
It's at this point that I'd like to look at a one of the assumptions behind OU's tiering definitions, which I think is still relevant in this situation:
So tl;dr: Sablenite is not broken, uncompetitive or unhealthy, nor would banning it lead to a net positive for the metagame large enough to justify a ban. Therefore, I urge suspect voters to vote No ban. (Seriously though if you're going to vote just read what I've written, there's some important reasoning in there that it'd be worthwhile at least skimming over.)
So to start with: the tiering philosophy.
#1 simply tells us not to type-ban it were there reason to do so. Moving on.Tiering Philosophy said:
#3 Doesn't seem to be particularly relevant either. Neither Dark nor Ghost is exactly hugely OP, and while their nerfs would make Psychic stronger I'm unconvinced that they would do so to an extent where Psychic would be broken.
#2 is somewhat more complex. Let's take this one step at a time.
Firstly, we ban things that are broken. From OU's definitions:
Now, that's not the case. It can be difficult to get around M-sab if you don't know what you're doing, but no team is entirely helpless before it and I've yet to see a good player be 6-0'd by it. That's not to say it's not a good mon, it can certainly be very good in some scenarios. But in most circumstances the player who plays better is more likely to win.
We also ban things that are uncompetitive. Again, OU's definitions:
Evidently this isn't the case. We're not dealing with something like confuse ray m-sab, and although sometimes it comes down to critting honestly this is more often something against the m-sab user rather than in their favour as sab's the one more likely to lose to a crit.
And then there's unhealthy. The OU definition:
Ok, this one's unusual because, in Aldaron's own words, "We haven't really had an example of an unhealthy ban yet". The example he shares is that if Stealth Rock were to be suspected, it would be because of this. I wouldn't say M-Sab is at all like that, nor would I say it inhibits "skillful play" to a large extent. When I've faced M-sab using a team somewhat weak to it, in fact, I'd say that the playing had to be more skillful rather than less to avoid it getting setup opportunities.
Ok, so here we get into the real meat of the tiering philosophy:
Would banning Sablenite add or subtract from the metagame?
I'll start by saying that people's initial knee-jerk reaction might be "ban it, it's annoying" isn't relevant. We're not going to nerf stall because it's annoying, and that's not the reason that either Baton Pass or Swagger were banned. What we're looking at is the health of the metagame and how each type fares with or without a ban in place. So let's start with the obvious:
Dark doesn't like the ban. Why? Well, obviously it's losing a very nice mon. Obviously it's not going to be rock if Sablenite gets banned as lefties sable is still perfectly usable, however it does struggle more without M-Sable. I doubt I need to prove that m-sable is bulkier than sable but some calcs anyway:
252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Obviously it's going to get burned at some point in any case, but if you're switching in to force it out the extra damage is really going to add up. So overall, losing sablenite is a minor loss for Dark. Usage is a reasonable metric for overall viability, and I'd expect Dark to fall to around where Ghost currently is - usable, but not your first choice for a team and probably allowed in the lesser used types mono tier that was played in a bo3 tour a while back.
Next, let's look at Ghost. Currently, ghost isn't the most viable type around, but at the same time it's certainly usable. I built a Ghost team to play in the current round of the Mono Brigade tour that it doesn't look like I'll end up playing. The type might have a few negative matchups, but honestly it holds its own decently, if not amazingly, against the most used types. With an M-sab ban, not only would things like M-gyara, Hoopa-U, Banded Knock Off mons like Mamoswine etc. be even more of a threat, but the type's overall viability would plummet. Yes, Aegislash is a good mon, and there's also mons like Gengar at your disposal. Yes, Aegi can generally check those things that M-Sab is used to counter. But it lacks recovery, and is very easy to wear down if the team support isn't good enough - which it wouldn't be. There'd be pretty much no hazard control (no, taunt sab isn't good enough, it can't switch in on a garchomp that's about to set rocks and at the same time stop it setting rocks), and it would have to come in on a huge number of threats rather than just the few that it covered and m-sab didn't, allowing it to be slowly beaten over the course of maybe 10 turns. At the same time, teams with plenty of strong attackers such as Dragon could wear it down very easily, even if just taking 30% off its health every time they come in until it's gone. Honestly, Ghost would be about on par with Rock. Having used Rock, I can say it has some usable strats and usable mons (sticky web + m-diancie and banded terrakion can work very well), but it just doesn't have what it takes to be a usable type overall. That's about where Ghost would be. This to me seems like a very big hit for ghost.
Next, we'll look at the effect of a ban on the other types. As has been shown by the intesive research of a vast number of people, every type has mons that can deal with M-sab, and an extremely large majority of types either have such mons that would be extremely good in any case (e.g. Bandnite) or would struggle with a large number of things in the meta (e.g. Electric). Getting rid of M-sab would lighten teambuilding a little, perhaps. I might not run taunt on my m-gyara, or change a Keldeo set from SubCM to something else, but frankly those are perfectly viable in any case. I see no major difference between that and running Iron Head Scarf Kyu-b to deal with the M-Garde that would otherwise 6-0 my dragon team. Frankly, in terms of teambuilding there doesn't seem to be that much difference between M-sab and M-garde. They both need specific checks on a few teams, and perhaps require you to change the set of one of your pokes a little to be able to deal with it a bit better.
Ok, but surely it's different in terms of the battles then? Well, M-sab will sweep if you let it set up on you, and if you're in a tough situation or your team's weak to it that setup could potentially be as little as one well-placed CM when you predict it to WoW instead. Meanwhile, if you're not careful around M-garde it'll come in and get a free KO on a poke of your choice. It's different, sure, but I wouldn't say M-sab is particularly worse, just different due to being far more stally. Generally M-sab needs one or two pokes taken out (or at least crippled) before it can start setting up to sweep. That's really no different from any other setup sweeper.
But getting somewhat more back on-topic. The teams other than Ghost and Dark would in most cases experience a minor positive. It's possible that this positive would outweigh the negative for Ghost and Dark, but honestly I've yet to see a convincing argument saying this is the case.
It's at this point that I'd like to look at a one of the assumptions behind OU's tiering definitions, which I think is still relevant in this situation:
See, this is my main problem with the pro-ban arguers. There's something of a stalemate at play here. The anti-ban side can't entirely refute the pro-ban side's claims, perhaps, but the pro-ban side doesn't really have many claims in the first place and that's the real problem here. Mega Sableye is not broken. It is not uncompetitive. It is not unhealthy. So why should it be banned? The response seems to be that it's difficult to play around, such that there would be a net positive were it banned. But there isn't very much reasoning in favour of that being the case, frankly. There's probably a reasonably strong case to argue either way, and while I'm confident that it would be a net negative to ban Sablenite I can't really prove it to be the case. But the burden of proof lies with those putting forward a claim. We don't ban things because we're not sure if they're broken. We only ban things if we're confident, beyond reasonable doubt, that they're in need of a ban. And I honestly see no such reason to be confident.
So tl;dr: Sablenite is not broken, uncompetitive or unhealthy, nor would banning it lead to a net positive for the metagame large enough to justify a ban. Therefore, I urge suspect voters to vote No ban. (Seriously though if you're going to vote just read what I've written, there's some important reasoning in there that it'd be worthwhile at least skimming over.)
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I was actually about to start a short write up similar to this but see no need.
This was worded beautifully and I could not have possibly said it better myself
zarifs computer broke
Please do not misconstrue what I'm going to say as a personal attack. This reply isn't necessary directed at Rhalekin, per se; he is to be used more of an example. Yes, I understand that this may feel like I am doing nothing but attacking the person, but those are not my intentions.
Doing upwards to 92% damage at +0 to anything at +1 while taking something like 60% to a +1 hit is a LOT more than "barely doing anything to it."
At this point, I guess that Mega-Diancie and Sylveon are not Sableye checks either, as neither can OHKO it at +1 and both take way too much damage from a +1 Dark Pulse to constitute as true checks.
I actually find the logic in this quoted segment offensive.
To make it worse, he gives the example of Mega-Sableye and Hoopa. How is that even a core? Are we rocking that Trick Room Hoopa + Nasty Plot Mega-Sableye?
Now, he does go into a good point that Mega-Sableye forms potent defensive cores, and this is very true. However, to say that "people can't even get past them" is a facetious statement. If this were true, the ladder would be at a standstill where every person and their mother would be laddering with Mega-Sableye teams and magically win 100% of the time. Yes, Mandibuzz + Tyranitar + regular Sableye is a very powerful defensive core. Yes, Mega-Sableye arguably makes the core much stronger and that much more difficult to break. However, one would then need to argue that Sableye is not singularly broken, but his defensive cores are. Now, that is a great argument, but then we must consider similar cores such SkarmDos, the Immunity Core, Normal's Eviolite Core + Staraptor and so on.
It is also important to note that this person didn't give examples as to how these types auto lose to Sableye, but rather argued for a ban because Sableye makes the users of this type "want to punch their screen."
It sounds really crazy, but I haven't met any so far.
In short, Magic Bounce is one of the best abilities in the game and such a defensive pokemon couldn't ask for a better ability. Should we also ban Diancie, Espeon, and Xatu for having the same ability?
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What I'm trying to accomplish in this post is to illustrate to the council that this tier is growing and that the possibility of raising the COIL requirements in future suspect tests can help increase the quality of the voting stage. In the past, you have stated that you don't want the requirements too steep because you want a wider pool of people to participate and because you don't want to just have the voices of the better players of the community heard.
However, as we have seen in these past two identification threads(one player even met the requirements with a GXE in the 60s), players with less skill have persevered to achieve the required COIL, and their efforts were rewarded by letting their voice be heard. Many of us can agree that 2600 COIL wasn't too difficult for us to achieve. If we look at official tiers, we'll see that COIL requirements are 2700. Now, 2700 isn't too far off from 2600, but higher enough to still prove challenging to newer players. I would go as far as saying that 2750 or 2800 still isn't farfetched since we do not have the luxury of performing suspect tests without the test subject to instantly see how different the meta is without the threat to help solidify our opinion of the ban. I feel like official suspect tests are more difficult to ladder in, as the meta instantly changes and you are forced to quickly adapt to it if you want to be successful.
Having steeper requirements means having more genuine votes. As of now, I fear a Sablenite ban because certain salty/lazy individuals will vote to ban it simply because they do not like dealing with it. That coupled with the legitimate votes of players that genuinely feel that Sableye is broken/unhealthy/centralizing can very well be enough to unfairly ban him.
People like this having access to vote is actually quite scary. I think that we can agree, for the most part, that his most recent "arguments" for banning Sablenite were not only weak at best, but also illustrated his lack of insight in metagame knowledge.
Hello? How do we even go about this? Mega-Gardevoir does nothing to a +1 Sableye only to sack itself after attacking it?
Doing upwards to 92% damage at +0 to anything at +1 while taking something like 60% to a +1 hit is a LOT more than "barely doing anything to it."
At this point, I guess that Mega-Diancie and Sylveon are not Sableye checks either, as neither can OHKO it at +1 and both take way too much damage from a +1 Dark Pulse to constitute as true checks.
I actually find the logic in this quoted segment offensive.
So, we are now going to ban threats because they are annoying? Seriously? Smogon is a competitive community, so that logic obviously doesn't suffice as a competitive argument. However, the person instilling said logic has every right to vote based on that misconstrued logic.
To make it worse, he gives the example of Mega-Sableye and Hoopa. How is that even a core? Are we rocking that Trick Room Hoopa + Nasty Plot Mega-Sableye?
Now, he does go into a good point that Mega-Sableye forms potent defensive cores, and this is very true. However, to say that "people can't even get past them" is a facetious statement. If this were true, the ladder would be at a standstill where every person and their mother would be laddering with Mega-Sableye teams and magically win 100% of the time. Yes, Mandibuzz + Tyranitar + regular Sableye is a very powerful defensive core. Yes, Mega-Sableye arguably makes the core much stronger and that much more difficult to break. However, one would then need to argue that Sableye is not singularly broken, but his defensive cores are. Now, that is a great argument, but then we must consider similar cores such SkarmDos, the Immunity Core, Normal's Eviolite Core + Staraptor and so on.
Yes, we know that Electric and Ghost severely struggle with Sableye, but every other type has at least one solid answer to him. The fact that Psychic and Fire are even on the list is actually quite appalling
It is also important to note that this person didn't give examples as to how these types auto lose to Sableye, but rather argued for a ban because Sableye makes the users of this type "want to punch their screen."
Let's get real. How many of us have battled good players that click x after Sableye reaches +1?
It sounds really crazy, but I haven't met any so far.
And players also think twice about spreading status when a Guts user is chilling in the back. Players think twice to use choice locked Fighting moves vs Steel with Doublade hiding in the back.
In short, Magic Bounce is one of the best abilities in the game and such a defensive pokemon couldn't ask for a better ability. Should we also ban Diancie, Espeon, and Xatu for having the same ability?
And here we see that this person has zero respect for the opinions of others as he trivializes their arguments and turns them into petty claims. This mindset is incredibly dangerous because it shows that this person firmly believes in his deluded ideology and no matter how well expressed, the opinions of others will not penetrate his skull
Yea, if by some miracle Sableye stays, then you'll be forced to mature as a player and deal with this threat. I find battling Togekiss, Bisharp, Landorus, Thundurus, Pinsir, Gardevoir, and Yzard annoying. Does this mean that they should be banned or that I would vote for a ban if they were ever suspected in the future? No, because I do not find any of them singularly broken and my personal feelings have no say in a large, competitive environment.
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What I'm trying to accomplish in this post is to illustrate to the council that this tier is growing and that the possibility of raising the COIL requirements in future suspect tests can help increase the quality of the voting stage. In the past, you have stated that you don't want the requirements too steep because you want a wider pool of people to participate and because you don't want to just have the voices of the better players of the community heard.
However, as we have seen in these past two identification threads(one player even met the requirements with a GXE in the 60s), players with less skill have persevered to achieve the required COIL, and their efforts were rewarded by letting their voice be heard. Many of us can agree that 2600 COIL wasn't too difficult for us to achieve. If we look at official tiers, we'll see that COIL requirements are 2700. Now, 2700 isn't too far off from 2600, but higher enough to still prove challenging to newer players. I would go as far as saying that 2750 or 2800 still isn't farfetched since we do not have the luxury of performing suspect tests without the test subject to instantly see how different the meta is without the threat to help solidify our opinion of the ban. I feel like official suspect tests are more difficult to ladder in, as the meta instantly changes and you are forced to quickly adapt to it if you want to be successful.
Having steeper requirements means having more genuine votes. As of now, I fear a Sablenite ban because certain salty/lazy individuals will vote to ban it simply because they do not like dealing with it. That coupled with the legitimate votes of players that genuinely feel that Sableye is broken/unhealthy/centralizing can very well be enough to unfairly ban him.
I typed up my thoughts on Mega Sableye when the suspect started, so here they are.
(Notice that this was typed up at 5 AM, I was really sleepy, if I typed something dumb, feel free to point it out.)
Sableye has an 89.29% usage on Ghost, with 89.7% holding Sablenite. Sableye has a 67.65% usage on Dark, with 71.5% of them having Sablenite, so it is no doubt a common poke.
What Sable-M can do:
Megableye can run a variety of sets, one of the most common being Will-O, Recover, Calm Mind, Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball. The EVs are usually either 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA Bold Nature, or 252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA Calm Nature.
It basically sets up Calm Minds to protect against special attackers and get SpA boosts, and will-o-wisps physical attackers. It also has Magic Bounce, so status’ing it won’t be an option, unless you’re a Toxic Synchro Umbreon.
Most types have an answer to Mega Sableye, but 2 types struggle a lot with it: Electric and Ghost.
The average Ghost team would look something like Sableye/Aegislash/Gengar/Chandelure/Golurk/Jellicent. If Sableye gets 2 CMs up, it’s good to go against Gengar, Chande, and Jelli.
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
And that calc is using a Specs Chandelure, which Ghost only runs 7.1% of the time.
All that’s left is Golurk, Aegislash, and Sableye. Aegislash really cant do much, it can either try to shadow sneak, or try to swords dance. Shadow Sneak without any boost literally does nothing, around 17.5%. If it Swords Dances, Sableye will just Will-O-Wisp it, canceling out the +2. The most damage it can do while burned is this:
+6 252+ Atk burned Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 98-116 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO
Recover, CM, wait for burn to kill, repeat.
252+ Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Burn. Enough said.
All that’s left is Sableye, which will almost always be mega, so it’ll be a stall war between the 2 Megableyes.
Oh, just in case you were wondering,
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 101-122 (33.2 - 40.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Next up is Electric. Most electric teams only have 1 physical attacker, so all Sableye needs is to burn it, and CM it’s way to victory.
Let’s look at what would happen to other types if Sablenite got banned.
I think Psychic would rise in usage, since that’s one less annoying poke to deal with.
Same with Fighting, Mega Sable was a problem for Fighting.
I think Dark would drop to around where Ghost is now in Usage, around 4.1%
Ghost would probably drop down to where Fire is, 3.1%
Electric would go up maybe 1% or so in usage, still wouldn’t be too viable.
Some people are arguing that banning MegaSable would kill Ghost as a type, but I really don’t see a problem with just running regular Sableye.
The banning criteria 2 is
“2. Ban elements of the metagame that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy.”
Let’s look at OU’s definitions of all of those.
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
If you know what you’re doing, and you’re not running Ghost or Electric, you can get around MegaBleye with some effort.
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A lot of the times it’s up to if you get a crit or not. This isn’t true for other set uppers, as they (mostly) don’t have Magic Bounce. You can’t really make skillful plays, it’ll just spam will-o and CM and Dark Pulse. I think this definition kind of fits.
Looking over what I just wrote, I’m not really sure if MegaBleye is ban worthy or not. But, since I do believe it kind of fits the definition of Uncompetitive, I am most likely voting Ban
(Notice that this was typed up at 5 AM, I was really sleepy, if I typed something dumb, feel free to point it out.)
Sableye has an 89.29% usage on Ghost, with 89.7% holding Sablenite. Sableye has a 67.65% usage on Dark, with 71.5% of them having Sablenite, so it is no doubt a common poke.
What Sable-M can do:
Megableye can run a variety of sets, one of the most common being Will-O, Recover, Calm Mind, Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball. The EVs are usually either 252 HP/252 Def/4 SpA Bold Nature, or 252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA Calm Nature.
It basically sets up Calm Minds to protect against special attackers and get SpA boosts, and will-o-wisps physical attackers. It also has Magic Bounce, so status’ing it won’t be an option, unless you’re a Toxic Synchro Umbreon.
Most types have an answer to Mega Sableye, but 2 types struggle a lot with it: Electric and Ghost.
The average Ghost team would look something like Sableye/Aegislash/Gengar/Chandelure/Golurk/Jellicent. If Sableye gets 2 CMs up, it’s good to go against Gengar, Chande, and Jelli.
252 SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 130-154 (42.7 - 50.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
And that calc is using a Specs Chandelure, which Ghost only runs 7.1% of the time.
All that’s left is Golurk, Aegislash, and Sableye. Aegislash really cant do much, it can either try to shadow sneak, or try to swords dance. Shadow Sneak without any boost literally does nothing, around 17.5%. If it Swords Dances, Sableye will just Will-O-Wisp it, canceling out the +2. The most damage it can do while burned is this:
+6 252+ Atk burned Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 98-116 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 96.2% chance to 3HKO
Recover, CM, wait for burn to kill, repeat.
252+ Atk Golurk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 108-127 (35.5 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Burn. Enough said.
All that’s left is Sableye, which will almost always be mega, so it’ll be a stall war between the 2 Megableyes.
Oh, just in case you were wondering,
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Dazzling Gleam vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 101-122 (33.2 - 40.1%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
Next up is Electric. Most electric teams only have 1 physical attacker, so all Sableye needs is to burn it, and CM it’s way to victory.
Let’s look at what would happen to other types if Sablenite got banned.
I think Psychic would rise in usage, since that’s one less annoying poke to deal with.
Same with Fighting, Mega Sable was a problem for Fighting.
I think Dark would drop to around where Ghost is now in Usage, around 4.1%
Ghost would probably drop down to where Fire is, 3.1%
Electric would go up maybe 1% or so in usage, still wouldn’t be too viable.
Some people are arguing that banning MegaSable would kill Ghost as a type, but I really don’t see a problem with just running regular Sableye.
The banning criteria 2 is
“2. Ban elements of the metagame that are broken, uncompetitive, or unhealthy.”
Let’s look at OU’s definitions of all of those.
III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
If you know what you’re doing, and you’re not running Ghost or Electric, you can get around MegaBleye with some effort.
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A lot of the times it’s up to if you get a crit or not. This isn’t true for other set uppers, as they (mostly) don’t have Magic Bounce. You can’t really make skillful plays, it’ll just spam will-o and CM and Dark Pulse. I think this definition kind of fits.
Looking over what I just wrote, I’m not really sure if MegaBleye is ban worthy or not. But, since I do believe it kind of fits the definition of Uncompetitive, I am most likely voting Ban
If you didn't realize, Ghost 9 times out of 10 will also use their own mega sableye. You can't rly include that as an argument because it's basically either a stall war between the 2 mega sableyes (or, a race for the first person to get a crit), or aegislash is boosted enough (probs by WP, prior to sableye getting a boost) to take it out.
I swear I said it would be a stall war between the 2 Megableyes.
Also, even with WP and 1 SD,
+4 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO
Sable just will-o-wisps and recovers.
Well as Artiuno I stated, it is up to the person trying to ban it to come up with a foolproof argument.
You don't even know if its banworthy or not, you are just leaning towards a ban. This is really not a strong case for a ban and as such I think you try to think of an argument which PROVES sableye is banworthy and gets rid of any doubts in your mind. If you can't do this, perhaps you should vote no ban instead.
I was in a stalemate with myself, I couldn't find an foolproof argument for banning it, but I couldn't find one for not banning it either.
As Articuno said, "There's something of a stalemate at play here. The anti-ban side can't entirely refute the pro-ban side's claims, perhaps, but the pro-ban side doesn't really have many claims in the first place and that's the real problem here. "
Raising COIL requiriments seems good at paper, but I find some issues with it:ed wins said:
1. The playerbase of our tier (monotype) is still smaller than official tiers. This alone makes harder to find battles at certain moments of the day (specially for players with other time zones like me), so unless you are a ladderfag, it can be harder for more people achieve reqs.
2. I disagree with you when u say "players with less skill"; to say the truth I find it highly elitist. Reqs requirements are supposed to admit the biggest number of players which know the metagame, the COIL system was done expressly to show that. Now, in this suspect test, to get the 2600 COIL requirement a player needed 1500 or more in the ranking ladder (average stimation), which i find very capable in the tier, i don't know where are the players with less skill you are talking about.
I can argue as well about salty/lazy individuals will vote no ban because they use mega sableye on their team and don't like see their tool gone. Don't use hypothesis like an argument, because it can go both ways.ed wins said:
Also totally unrelated thing: can we stop posting 1 liners in this thread? they don't help the thread at all, and dont let space to replies.
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We have more ladder activity than all standard tiers except OU, Ubers, and UU (
edit: nvm UU crushed us last month, but in previous months we've been reasonably close to them.
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Wow nice attack ;-;
But i apologize for all the statements saying about its annoying, the types cant go against it like fire (stupid on my part), and i should have a little respect for peoples opinions but im adding solutions so it wont affect them to not use the type after the ban. and i never said if other pokemon got magic bounce they should be banned too, theres a difference between them and mega sab lol. I havent find a major arguement for why it should be banned because its hard to think off per say.
DoW
formally Death on Wings
If there's a stalemate, that means no ban. That's what Aldaron's post stated, that's what the tiering council has accepted into the tiering philosophy, and it's comparable to how the whole of society works - Innocent until proven Guilty. If you can't show that it's broken, don't vote for a ban because there's tens of mons out there that you can argue either way for, including scizor, m-gyara, zard y, zapdos, aegi, m-diancie, chansey... (yes, I've had people ask for every single one of those to be banned. No, they're not going to be banned until someone puts forward a very strong argument for a ban).
Raising the COIL would do very little to "improve the vote". What you're looking for is more like subjective reqs, which is done by plenty of tiers already, and basically means that if you don't post at all or your posts are really stupid they don't let you vote. You have to prove yourself good, essentially. More coil just means playing more games, subjective helps at least a little bit, although anything along those lines are for Scpinion and the council, and not this thread.
Anyway, havent really said anything in this thread but I'll just be quietly voting not to ban. Articuno I said most of the relevant stuff, but I don't think Sableye warps the meta to an ungodly amount around it. For the most part, it's entirely possible to simply build with it in mind, at which point it becomes a threat but not one that you simply can't deal with. It really comes down to how much of a threat you see it as, but even fighting, a type that has been shown to have an awful time vs Megasab, still manages to have a couple of solid methods around it, and I think that really says a lot about how dramatic some people have been in this thread. There's a large difference between being forced to run Registeel for Megamence and "being forced to run" a Keldeo for Mega Sableye. Wow what a loss. Not sure what electric does but I seriously doubt it's becoming viable with the banning of sab.
Hopefully this wasn't too dumb and full of nitpicks ;_;
Anyway, havent really said anything in this thread but I'll just be quietly voting not to ban. Articuno I said most of the relevant stuff, but I don't think Sableye warps the meta to an ungodly amount around it. For the most part, it's entirely possible to simply build with it in mind, at which point it becomes a threat but not one that you simply can't deal with. It really comes down to how much of a threat you see it as, but even fighting, a type that has been shown to have an awful time vs Megasab, still manages to have a couple of solid methods around it, and I think that really says a lot about how dramatic some people have been in this thread. There's a large difference between being forced to run Registeel for Megamence and "being forced to run" a Keldeo for Mega Sableye. Wow what a loss. Not sure what electric does but I seriously doubt it's becoming viable with the banning of sab.
Hopefully this wasn't too dumb and full of nitpicks ;_;
I won't respond to the call for raising the reqs because I just want this to be a short reply, but I will say you made a very convincing and well thought out argument for it and we'll probably come back to it for future suspects.
Regarding the first part of your post where you say that people may think you are personally attacking the person you mentioned, I just want to assure you that you were not attacking him personally. You were attacking his arguments, which is perfectly acceptable and encouraged as long as it is done so intelligently. Thank you for doing it intelligently.
To everyone, no matter what your opinion of Mega Sableye is, please do feel free to call someone out on a false or poorly researched statement. As long as you are attacking the person's statement and not their character and you refute the statement intelligently, I will always encourage it even if we don't share the same opinion.
Raising COIL won't change anything. The bottom line is, Monotype doesn't count as a tc vote ( McMeghan make it happen eventually D:). This is both good and bad.
It's bad because we get far less people who care enough to get reqs to vote. However, it also means our COIL requirement can be lower. In tiers such as RU (they're suspecting Tyrant run atm) people will try and ladder just to achieve a tc vote. So, they set the COIL requirement higher to prevent most of the people who don't know the tier from getting reqs, and those that do get reqs are probably decent enough at RU at that point anyway to make an educted decision.
It's good because of... sort of the same reason. People won't ladder Monotype just to get a tc vote. The only people laddering will be people genuinely interested in contributing to the tier. This means that we don't need to really raise the requirements, because they're just a formality. People who bother getting them solely want to contribute to the tier, and I don't think they should be stopped.
I didn't have time to ladder for reqs this time, Ive been busy. If anyone cares though, I would have probably voted Ban. Not certain though, it would have depended on my opinion laddering with it. Don't change your votes how I or anyone else post and vote. Vote your honest opinion.
:-)
It's bad because we get far less people who care enough to get reqs to vote. However, it also means our COIL requirement can be lower. In tiers such as RU (they're suspecting Tyrant run atm) people will try and ladder just to achieve a tc vote. So, they set the COIL requirement higher to prevent most of the people who don't know the tier from getting reqs, and those that do get reqs are probably decent enough at RU at that point anyway to make an educted decision.
It's good because of... sort of the same reason. People won't ladder Monotype just to get a tc vote. The only people laddering will be people genuinely interested in contributing to the tier. This means that we don't need to really raise the requirements, because they're just a formality. People who bother getting them solely want to contribute to the tier, and I don't think they should be stopped.
I didn't have time to ladder for reqs this time, Ive been busy. If anyone cares though, I would have probably voted Ban. Not certain though, it would have depended on my opinion laddering with it. Don't change your votes how I or anyone else post and vote. Vote your honest opinion.
:-)
Yay! Replays are back.
Before I come back to read this tonight I would like you guys to open your eyes and see exactly how broken Sableye is. Even vs Fairy, Sableye freely burns every switch to make them not be switch ins any more. Sableye is so powerful that he freely sets up Calm Minds and proceeds to body bag the type with Dark Pulse finches and crits. Like seriously, how is this thing still in the meta?
If it wasn't for Sableye being so slow, Gardevoir would have swept. However, Sableye was able to stall out Trick Room against the likes of a Mega-Gardevoir. Sableye walls Trick Room Mega-Gardevoir and prevents Fairy to sweep Dark, therefore it is broken
Pls ban
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/monotype-294630227
Before I come back to read this tonight I would like you guys to open your eyes and see exactly how broken Sableye is. Even vs Fairy, Sableye freely burns every switch to make them not be switch ins any more. Sableye is so powerful that he freely sets up Calm Minds and proceeds to body bag the type with Dark Pulse finches and crits. Like seriously, how is this thing still in the meta?
If it wasn't for Sableye being so slow, Gardevoir would have swept. However, Sableye was able to stall out Trick Room against the likes of a Mega-Gardevoir. Sableye walls Trick Room Mega-Gardevoir and prevents Fairy to sweep Dark, therefore it is broken
Pls ban
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/monotype-294630227
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Theres been a lot of dont ban MSab, so this is just a post playing devil's advocate.
MSab should be banned from monotype since certain types realistically cant beat it, while every type certainly has pokemon to beat it in a 1v1 MSab is a ghost type and cant be trapped, so they are going to switch out.
Electric:
Toxic MAmphy - Umbreon has heal bell, which contrary to popular belief, actually does remove toxic status for MSab. Umbreon and MSab also get reliable recover (recover and wish) while MAmphy does not, allowing them to easily outlast MAmpharos, and if MSab even starts clicking an attacking move when MAmphy comes in then it wont last long
0 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 69-82 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 69-82 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- 9.7% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage
0 SpA Mega Sableye Snarl vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 49-58 (12.7 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Mega Sableye Snarl vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 49-58 (12.7 - 15.1%) -- possible 5HKO after sandstorm damage
As you can see even bulky MAmphy sets with max hp can only switch in around 7 times into an attack, combine that with any sandstorm damage (its a special attacker, why wouldn't they switch into ttar? If you start predicting and clicking focus miss, they just keep in MSab and hit you again, making it die even faster!)
Band Guts Luxray - Firstly MSab has no business spreading burn around, what does it affect? Its a type full of special attackers, MSab would be better of a nice boost to its SpDef in using calm mind, which would let it take on the entire rest of the team. You are then left with
252+ Atk Choice Band Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
Which MSab then recovers away, leaving you with a check that doesn't work.
Utility MSab also beats Luxray
252+ Atk Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 169+ Def Mega Sableye: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
SubCMRaikou - Is a lord an beats everything, whats the surprise? #notbiased But really, it loses to snarl. +1 snarl will 5hko, and you cant just start tbolting it since then you lose
+1 0 SpA Mega Sableye Snarl vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 78-93 (24.2 - 28.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 81-96 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 54-64 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
Ice:
Specs Walrein - Can actually win, assuming the dark user doesnt feel like preserving something that can almost 6-0 ice by itself
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Walrein Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(If they koff then switch out and come in and recover on something else, then rip)
Specs Lapras - Loses to MSab, it can koff then recover away the damage or even switch to a teammate.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lapras Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Max rolls = 99% damage!!! (2 hp from a ko), your going to need a tiny bit of prior damage but if its a 1v1 (like all your checks so desperately want) then it loses.
Steel:
Bisharp - Loses to MSab
+2 252+ Atk burned Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 169+ Def Mega Sableye: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 25.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk burned Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 169+ Def Mega Sableye: 46-54 (15.1 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO
Magnezone - Loses to MSab
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
Heatran - Needs hax to win, even with an active flash fire
252 SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
These are just 3 types that can have trouble with MSab, and even for these 3 MSab can beat its "checks" 1v1, or you can sack something and bring your check in but then its either too strong (rip special attackers) or its teammates easily take care of your checks
MSab by itself also steamrolls Ghost teams, as nothing can beat MSab except another MSab on that type. This is already 3 types (not including ice) that cannot beat MSab due to MSab 6-0ing by itself or because MSab with a tiny bit of team support ends up winning. This doesn't even take into account other types that cannot beat MSab + friends, and while team support alone can never ban a pokemon it really can break a pokemon when everything you have is easily beaten by the teamsupport.
56 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 318-374 (109.2 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 95-112 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- 83.5% chance to 4HKO
(Not that MDoom should stay in to Ttar anyway, so Sabless dark can beat MSab dark)
When taking into account teamsupport that are suddenly more types that cannot beat MSab, as pokemon that are easily worn down by hazards, sand storm damage, and just attacks in general when switching into MSab eventually die, and MSab + friends keep healthy with wish, recover, roost and lefties.
What about ghost? It has to be a casualty. The same principle that applied to Skymin and KyuW apply here. When they got banned the council said that they wouldn't be unbanning any more ubers. Why? Because they are broken in the monotype metagame. The same applies to MSab, just because Ghost becomes bad doesn't mean you shouldn't ban a broken pokemon, and even though offensively it will never reach the same potential the same affect still applies.
Just to end this I would like to point out how MSab is broken and uncompetitive from ous tiering policy.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/
"II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough."
In monotype the matchups are pretty skewed, much more than in ou. However certain matchup advantages get to be too much. MSab auto wins against electric if they use MAmphy as their check with toxic and the dark user carries heal bell. If MSab carries the right set and teammates it can easily get past teams that rely on 1 check to beat it. This fits with the BP team example, and while that may be ok for a few types (dragon v electric or fire) it is unacceptable for a ton of types (dark v electric, ice, steel, dark, ghost) to be auto losing based on who their check is and whether the dark user prepared for it. In this way MSab reaches the "uncompetitive" status.
"III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
B.) Examples are mostly Pokemon and include strong Ubers like Kyogre, Groudon, and Arceus. These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.
D.) Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but aren't necessarily entirely so.
1.) BP was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to match up, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
2.) While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team match up restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few gimmicky and obscure counters or checks for it."
MSab also fits under the definition for broken. While it may not be a uber capable of 6-0ing a majority of teams, it is broken in the way it requires something out of every type. While this is applicable in a small way to a lot of pokemon, such as how a water user must always prepare for Mega Venusaur, MSab pushes this to the extremes. A lot of types must include a check to MSab, just like water needs something to get past MVenu, but MVenu and water is just one type. MSab requires a majority of types to prepare for it, and more often than not creating specific sets just for MSab. While a little bit of change and adapting is good for a meta, a pokemon that forces every user of a type to use x as a check to not get 6-0d is broken. You cannot skill your way past MSab, as the only way to get past it is to use your check and click a move, no amount of double switching will force it out, no amount of surprise moves on physical or special attackers will kill it, you must use a certain pokemon or die.
Another thing to note is that banning MSab can only make the meta healthier. It greatly lessens the teambuilding pressure put onto teams, which would lead to a more fun and more diverse meta. Ghost and Dark still have regular sableye, which is also better at checking physical attackers but unlike the mega cannot wall an almost infinite amount of special attackers with cm + snarl.
This is why MSab should be banned, its combination of teammates, moves, abilities, and bulk make it broken and uncompetitive, and its difficulty to even check is shown in the way users prepare for it.
MSab should be banned from monotype since certain types realistically cant beat it, while every type certainly has pokemon to beat it in a 1v1 MSab is a ghost type and cant be trapped, so they are going to switch out.
Electric:
Toxic MAmphy - Umbreon has heal bell, which contrary to popular belief, actually does remove toxic status for MSab. Umbreon and MSab also get reliable recover (recover and wish) while MAmphy does not, allowing them to easily outlast MAmpharos, and if MSab even starts clicking an attacking move when MAmphy comes in then it wont last long
0 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 69-82 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 69-82 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- 9.7% chance to 4HKO after sandstorm damage
0 SpA Mega Sableye Snarl vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 49-58 (12.7 - 15.1%) -- possible 7HKO
0 SpA Mega Sableye Snarl vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Ampharos: 49-58 (12.7 - 15.1%) -- possible 5HKO after sandstorm damage
As you can see even bulky MAmphy sets with max hp can only switch in around 7 times into an attack, combine that with any sandstorm damage (its a special attacker, why wouldn't they switch into ttar? If you start predicting and clicking focus miss, they just keep in MSab and hit you again, making it die even faster!)
Band Guts Luxray - Firstly MSab has no business spreading burn around, what does it affect? Its a type full of special attackers, MSab would be better of a nice boost to its SpDef in using calm mind, which would let it take on the entire rest of the team. You are then left with
252+ Atk Choice Band Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 142-168 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
Which MSab then recovers away, leaving you with a check that doesn't work.
Utility MSab also beats Luxray
252+ Atk Luxray Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 169+ Def Mega Sableye: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
SubCMRaikou - Is a lord an beats everything, whats the surprise? #notbiased But really, it loses to snarl. +1 snarl will 5hko, and you cant just start tbolting it since then you lose
+1 0 SpA Mega Sableye Snarl vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 78-93 (24.2 - 28.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 81-96 (26.6 - 31.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
-1 252 SpA Raikou Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 54-64 (17.7 - 21%) -- possible 5HKO
Ice:
Specs Walrein - Can actually win, assuming the dark user doesnt feel like preserving something that can almost 6-0 ice by itself
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walrein Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Walrein Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 109-130 (35.8 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(If they koff then switch out and come in and recover on something else, then rip)
Specs Lapras - Loses to MSab, it can koff then recover away the damage or even switch to a teammate.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lapras Frost Breath vs. 252 HP / 60 SpD Mega Sableye on a critical hit: 102-121 (33.5 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Max rolls = 99% damage!!! (2 hp from a ko), your going to need a tiny bit of prior damage but if its a 1v1 (like all your checks so desperately want) then it loses.
Steel:
Bisharp - Loses to MSab
+2 252+ Atk burned Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 169+ Def Mega Sableye: 91-108 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 25.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk burned Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 169+ Def Mega Sableye: 46-54 (15.1 - 17.7%) -- possible 6HKO
Magnezone - Loses to MSab
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO
Heatran - Needs hax to win, even with an active flash fire
252 SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Flash Fire Heatran Lava Plume vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
These are just 3 types that can have trouble with MSab, and even for these 3 MSab can beat its "checks" 1v1, or you can sack something and bring your check in but then its either too strong (rip special attackers) or its teammates easily take care of your checks
MSab by itself also steamrolls Ghost teams, as nothing can beat MSab except another MSab on that type. This is already 3 types (not including ice) that cannot beat MSab due to MSab 6-0ing by itself or because MSab with a tiny bit of team support ends up winning. This doesn't even take into account other types that cannot beat MSab + friends, and while team support alone can never ban a pokemon it really can break a pokemon when everything you have is easily beaten by the teamsupport.
Apparently MDoom does beat MSab, ( thx Joshz ) but standard ttar can counter it
56 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Houndoom: 318-374 (109.2 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 200+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 95-112 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- 83.5% chance to 4HKO
(Not that MDoom should stay in to Ttar anyway, so Sabless dark can beat MSab dark)
When taking into account teamsupport that are suddenly more types that cannot beat MSab, as pokemon that are easily worn down by hazards, sand storm damage, and just attacks in general when switching into MSab eventually die, and MSab + friends keep healthy with wish, recover, roost and lefties.
What about ghost? It has to be a casualty. The same principle that applied to Skymin and KyuW apply here. When they got banned the council said that they wouldn't be unbanning any more ubers. Why? Because they are broken in the monotype metagame. The same applies to MSab, just because Ghost becomes bad doesn't mean you shouldn't ban a broken pokemon, and even though offensively it will never reach the same potential the same affect still applies.
Just to end this I would like to point out how MSab is broken and uncompetitive from ous tiering policy.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/
"II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough."
In monotype the matchups are pretty skewed, much more than in ou. However certain matchup advantages get to be too much. MSab auto wins against electric if they use MAmphy as their check with toxic and the dark user carries heal bell. If MSab carries the right set and teammates it can easily get past teams that rely on 1 check to beat it. This fits with the BP team example, and while that may be ok for a few types (dragon v electric or fire) it is unacceptable for a ton of types (dark v electric, ice, steel, dark, ghost) to be auto losing based on who their check is and whether the dark user prepared for it. In this way MSab reaches the "uncompetitive" status.
"III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
B.) Examples are mostly Pokemon and include strong Ubers like Kyogre, Groudon, and Arceus. These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these Pokemon and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These examples limit team building skill.
C.) Examples also include ones whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily gimmicky Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere. These examples also limit team building skill.
D.) Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but aren't necessarily entirely so.
1.) BP was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to match up, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
2.) While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team match up restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few gimmicky and obscure counters or checks for it."
MSab also fits under the definition for broken. While it may not be a uber capable of 6-0ing a majority of teams, it is broken in the way it requires something out of every type. While this is applicable in a small way to a lot of pokemon, such as how a water user must always prepare for Mega Venusaur, MSab pushes this to the extremes. A lot of types must include a check to MSab, just like water needs something to get past MVenu, but MVenu and water is just one type. MSab requires a majority of types to prepare for it, and more often than not creating specific sets just for MSab. While a little bit of change and adapting is good for a meta, a pokemon that forces every user of a type to use x as a check to not get 6-0d is broken. You cannot skill your way past MSab, as the only way to get past it is to use your check and click a move, no amount of double switching will force it out, no amount of surprise moves on physical or special attackers will kill it, you must use a certain pokemon or die.
Another thing to note is that banning MSab can only make the meta healthier. It greatly lessens the teambuilding pressure put onto teams, which would lead to a more fun and more diverse meta. Ghost and Dark still have regular sableye, which is also better at checking physical attackers but unlike the mega cannot wall an almost infinite amount of special attackers with cm + snarl.
This is why MSab should be banned, its combination of teammates, moves, abilities, and bulk make it broken and uncompetitive, and its difficulty to even check is shown in the way users prepare for it.
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All I'm going to say is: 1: Umbreon isn't that common. It is just barely on top 9 of the Dark usage. 2: Like let's be honest here, Mega Sableye, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar AND Umbreon. That's basically a stall team and leaves you with only 2 open spots for offensive mons (#BanHoopa?). Dark is a type that has to trade offense to make the famous defensive core as where other types like normal require a core of 2 pokemon. Might as well ban Staraptor so we can weaken the normal core amirite?
On a side note: Lum Berry is the most common item on Bisharp making it able to set up without fearing a will o wisp. +2 252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Also let's not forget Steel can run Jirachi which skillfully flinches Sableye to death after mega evolution (which is easily forced with heatran).
Other than that your argument was pretty solid tbh and you were probably the first person to make me understand why Sableye might be uncompetitive.
I think it would be better if you would actually make a writeup and explain with calcs why Mega-Houndoom is a Viable check for Mega-Sableye, rather than making a post with one picture.
For another subject, i really hate when people bring up the argument that one type can’t survive if a pokemon is banned. If pokemon is broken it should be banned, how the ban affects the type shouldn’t have that much impact. (Aegi is kinda different story, its not broken on ghost, but its kinda broken on steel because of the team support it gets.). Same goes for Mega-Sableye, if the community decides it should be banned so be it, if not then its not banworthy. Iirc the new philosophy is that all types don’t have to be balanced, if they are Usable thats enough. For instance ice is bad in monotype( I mean yeah there are good ice players and it works in some matchups) cause it has a huge amount of bad match ups, and the type it self lacks resistances. But still its usable, maybe not that viable in ladder or anything, but still usable. Thats all should matter. I dont see the logic why a lot of people are asking for type only ban on dark for mega-sableye. It gets almost as good team support on ghost as it gets on dark. Jellicent walls CM Keldeo which is a huge threat against it on dark. Ban or No ban, those should almost always be the only options.
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