Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

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TheAce22

Banned deucer.
Wait wait wIt. You guys are seriously considering unbanning Mega Blazekin... I could see it being allowed on fFire maybe but either way then it's pretty important to have sun which means Ninetails would be needed which is taking up a slot. On Fightigng tho it would be rly op honestly. I didn't play the meta when Mega Blazekin was unbanned in mono(Was it unbanned or not, idk and I'm doing this on mobile so it's painful to find that out) but it can be threatening force in über so, let alone monotype, and Fighting already is doing pretty well, with the addition of that it easily beats steel, since doublade and scizor and skarm can't win that matchup anymore and honestly if that thing gets an Sd up with Speed Boost it could definitely have the potential to destroy teams. I would personally never want it unbanned and agree the meta is as balanced as ever, so why change it?
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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Just to be clear: there is no way we're considering mega blaziken.

Regular blaziken is up for discussion, but I'd much prefer that discussion be over replays of unrated matches than pure theory-moning.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
Just to be clear: there is no way we're considering mega blaziken.

Regular blaziken is up for discussion, but I'd much prefer that discussion be over replays of unrated matches than pure theory-moning.
I honestly don't see why M-blaze shouldn't be treated the same as regular blaze.
LO blaze is stronger. LO blaze doesn't take up a mega slot (which is particularly important on fire). Sure, LO Blaze doesn't have as much bulk but it doesn't make a particularly large difference, with many of the things that 2HKO M-blaze still only 2HKOing LO blaze. They were both banned at the same time, and might I note that in Battle Spot Doubles (which is probably the closest meta to ours where it isn't banned) Blazikenite hits a mere 44% usage (on PS! 1630 stats) and 53% on Nintendo's official stats.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Now I'm theorymoning... x-x

The benefit of the mega is mostly in the speed tier and bulk in my opinion. Base 100 is massively different than base 80 (it may be 70? I'm on mobile.)

It is really hard to outspeed and revenge kill a base 100 scarfer, whereas the base 80 is par for the course.

That said, I'm open to considering it if it proves to not be broken in some test games.
 
Now I'm theorymoning... x-x

The benefit of the mega is mostly in the speed tier and bulk in my opinion. Base 100 is massively different than base 80 (it may be 70? I'm on mobile.)

It is really hard to outspeed and revenge kill a base 100 scarfer, whereas the base 80 is par for the course.

That said, I'm open to considering it if it proves to not be broken in some test games.
My philosophy atm is, if you run mega, you lose out on 1 of fire's best special wallbreakers (mega char y), and it could give Ninetales some spotlight back in the meta again. If you run mega Blaziken over LO, no residual damage (unless your running a recoil attack ofc), and yes, you outspeed more. In a way that sorta balances that out. I'd be concerned though letting mega on Fighting, or even regular in general.
 
I honestly don't see how is the unbanning of Blaziken even up for discussion when it's so ridiculously overpowered, but anyway. There are 3 common Blaziken sets, all have the same 3 moves (HJK / Flare Blitz / Knock Off), but differ on their last move.

Protect completely invalidates scarf pokemon as checks because in order for a scarfer to beat Blaziken it would have to be already in against it, otherwise it has toswitch after blaze has already killed a mon (and thus already has a +1 Speed under it's belt) or has to switch directly into it (as it attacks or uses Protect) and then watch it as it Protects again to +2 Spe, thus outspeeding (or if Blaziken's user doesn't want to risk it it can scout the move it's using and then switch to an appropriate mon like Keldeo or Hawlucha). It's a late game sweeper that doesn't care about scarfed pokemon.

Swords Dance sweeps through every defensive mon there is with VERY LITTLE prior damage (most OHKOes only need SR), which Blaziken can set up when forcing a switch (which it can easily do, like scaring Tyranitar on a Fire team) or setting up on a support mon without Thunder Wave (Support Mew, Sableye, etc..), and the only defensive pokemon which can stop if are Quagsire and Physically Defensive Unaware Clefable (which can't OHKO back but can stall Flare Blitz with Softboiled).

Baton Pass is a more support oriented set so it's a 50/50 whether it has Knock Off in favor of Substitute but it's still a dangerous specially cause it can set up on support pokemon that do carry Thunder Wave or other status (like Ferrothorn and Chansey), and then continue attacking until forced out to pass it's speed boosts for another pokemon on Fighting or Fire to continue the destruction (MegaHeracross / Keldeo / Terrakion or MegaCharizard Y / Victini / Heatran) just to come back late game to finish what it started.

And those are the common sets, it could easily use Poison Jab to handle Clefable & Azumarril better, or Hidden Power to defeat Quagsire, Stone Edge for Dragonite, etc...

That is without the support that it gets from it's respective types, Fire might not be the most balanced team but it's a great type for HO teams, specially with a great VoltTurn core formed by any combination of Victini / Rotom-H / Darmanitan / Infernape & Sun support coming from MegaCharizard-Y. While in Fighting it gets Breloom | Cheanught / Cobalion to get rid of it's checks, the latter also providing with SR and Volt Switch support & Keldeo / Terrakion / Hawlucha / MegaMedicham to help it weaken the opposing team, hell, you can even use regular Gallade with Memento and Screens to provide it with plenty of set up opportunities!

And last but not least, this would negatively impact a lot of types, many of which are on the verge of being unusable, if Sableye had the effect of changing a few sets this would be that only twice augmented. We're talking CB Aqua Jet Lapras and Chople Berry Walrein to not be sweeped by fire (which I remind you already need Specs to break Mega Sableye), StunPowder Whimsicott, Bug not being able to switch MegaPinsir for another Mega, etc...
 
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I honestly don't see why M-blaze shouldn't be treated the same as regular blaze.
LO blaze is stronger. LO blaze doesn't take up a mega slot (which is particularly important on fire). Sure, LO Blaze doesn't have as much bulk but it doesn't make a particularly large difference, with many of the things that 2HKO M-blaze still only 2HKOing LO blaze. They were both banned at the same time, and might I note that in Battle Spot Doubles (which is probably the closest meta to ours where it isn't banned) Blazikenite hits a mere 44% usage (on PS! 1630 stats) and 53% on Nintendo's official stats.
what death on wings said. why are neglecting regular blaziken from mega blaziken? Life orb blaziken does way more than mega blaziken. (hence why both the regular and mega were banned) I could see it on fire, but DEFINITIVELY NOT ON FIGHTING, it would bring fighting to a more powerful power than flying or psychic. But i really, really, really wish we brought back type bans, i know it makes things complex but it made the meta fun. A balanced meta doesnt mean a fun and fresh meta. I strongly hope we can bring back type bans, it made everything better.

I honestly don't see how is the unbanning of Blaziken even up for discussion when it's so ridiculously overpowered, but anyway. There are 3 common Blaziken sets, all have the same 3 moves (HJK / Flare Blitz / Knock Off), but differ on their last move.

Protect completely invalidates scarf pokemon as checks because in order for a scarfer to beat Blaziken it would have to be already in against it, otherwise it has toswitch after blaze has already killed a mon (and thus already has a +1 Speed under it's belt) or has to switch directly into it (as it attacks or uses Protect) and then watch it as it Protects again to +2 Spe, thus outspeeding (or if Blaziken's user doesn't want to risk it it can scout the move it's using and then switch to an appropriate mon like Keldeo or Hawlucha). It's a late game sweeper that doesn't care about scarfed pokemon.

Swords Dance sweeps through every defensive mon there is with VERY LITTLE prior damage (most OHKOes only need SR), which Blaziken can set up when forcing a switch (which it can easily do, like scaring Tyranitar on a Fire team) or setting up on a support mon without Thunder Wave (Support Mew, Sableye, etc..), and the only defensive pokemon which can stop if are Quagsire and Physically Defensive Unaware Clefable (which can't OHKO back but can stall Flare Blitz with Softboiled).

Baton Pass is a more support oriented set so it's a 50/50 whether it has Knock Off in favor of Substitute but it's still a dangerous specially cause it can set up on support pokemon that do carry Thunder Wave or other status (like Ferrothorn and Chansey), and then continue attacking until forced out to pass it's speed boosts for another pokemon on Fighting or Fire to continue the destruction (MegaHeracross / Keldeo / Terrakion or MegaCharizard Y / Victini / Heatran) just to come back late game to finish what it started.

And those are the common sets, it could easily use Poison Jab to handle Clefable & Azumarril better, or Hidden Power to defeat Quagsire, Stone Edge for Dragonite, etc...

That is without the support that it gets from it's respective types, Fire might not be the most balanced team but it's a great type for HO teams, specially with a great VoltTurn core formed by any combination of Victini / Rotom-H / Darmanitan / Infernape & Sun support coming from MegaCharizard-Y. While in Fighting it gets Breloom | Cheanught / Cobalion to get rid of it's checks, the latter also providing with SR and Volt Switch support & Keldeo / Terrakion / Hawlucha / MegaMedicham to help it weaken the opposing team, hell, you can even use regular Gallade with Memento and Screens to provide it with plenty of set up opportunities!

And last but not least, this would negatively impact a lot of types, many of which are on the verge of being unusable, if Sableye had the effect of changing a few sets this would be that only twice augmented. We're talking CB Aqua Jet Lapras and Chople Berry Walrein to not be sweeped by fire (which I remind you already need Specs to break Mega Sableye), StunPowder Whimsicott, Bug not being able to switch MegaPinsir for another Mega, etc...
You said swords dance, baton pass, poison jab, knock off, stone edge, and with the hjk/flare blitz. Dude you only have 4 moves, and you need 2 filler (since its always required to have high jump kick and flare blitz). Fire could really use blaziken and it could help up with matches like rock and normal which fire autoloses too (doesnt autolose to normal but its really fucking annoying to get rid of chansey and porygon2 with a staraptor with intimidate). It could bring up fire's bad usage now while also giving it a nice fast sweeper since all the fire pokemon arent relatively fast unless you put a scarf on it, and with a battle i had with stun with my dragon vs his fire, blaziken didnt do a whole lot in the battle since it really struggles off to get a sd off or try to hit a pokemon really hard since you need to make room for other moves from aside swords dance. I could really see it benefiting Fire a lot. Also remember i never said fighting, i only said fire, blaziken on fighting would be really powerful and make fighting stupid (Even tho situational, Sd+knock off sweeps psychic, giving fighting a laugh as it sweeps and destroys your slowbro and mega gardevoir). Hope they bring back type bans.
 
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I honestly don't see how is the unbanning of Blaziken even up for discussion when it's so ridiculously overpowered, but anyway. There are 3 common Blaziken sets, all have the same 3 moves (HJK / Flare Blitz / Knock Off), but differ on their last move.

Protect completely invalidates scarf pokemon as checks because in order for a scarfer to beat Blaziken it would have to be already in against it, otherwise it has toswitch after blaze has already killed a mon (and thus already has a +1 Speed under it's belt) or has to switch directly into it (as it attacks or uses Protect) and then watch it as it Protects again to +2 Spe, thus outspeeding (or if Blaziken's user doesn't want to risk it it can scout the move it's using and then switch to an appropriate mon like Keldeo or Hawlucha). It's a late game sweeper that doesn't care about scarfed pokemon.

Swords Dance sweeps through every defensive mon there is with VERY LITTLE prior damage (most OHKOes only need SR), which Blaziken can set up when forcing a switch (which it can easily do, like scaring Tyranitar on a Fire team) or setting up on a support mon without Thunder Wave (Support Mew, Sableye, etc..), and the only defensive pokemon which can stop if are Quagsire and Physically Defensive Unaware Clefable (which can't OHKO back but can stall Flare Blitz with Softboiled).

Baton Pass is a more support oriented set so it's a 50/50 whether it has Knock Off in favor of Substitute but it's still a dangerous specially cause it can set up on support pokemon that do carry Thunder Wave or other status (like Ferrothorn and Chansey), and then continue attacking until forced out to pass it's speed boosts for another pokemon on Fighting or Fire to continue the destruction (MegaHeracross / Keldeo / Terrakion or MegaCharizard Y / Victini / Heatran) just to come back late game to finish what it started.

And those are the common sets, it could easily use Poison Jab to handle Clefable & Azumarril better, or Hidden Power to defeat Quagsire, Stone Edge for Dragonite, etc...

That is without the support that it gets from it's respective types, Fire might not be the most balanced team but it's a great type for HO teams, specially with a great VoltTurn core formed by any combination of Victini / Rotom-H / Darmanitan / Infernape & Sun support coming from MegaCharizard-Y. While in Fighting it gets Breloom | Cheanught / Cobalion to get rid of it's checks, the latter also providing with SR and Volt Switch support & Keldeo / Terrakion / Hawlucha / MegaMedicham to help it weaken the opposing team, hell, you can even use regular Gallade with Memento and Screens to provide it with plenty of set up opportunities!

And last but not least, this would negatively impact a lot of types, many of which are on the verge of being unusable, if Sableye had the effect of changing a few sets this would be that only twice augmented. We're talking CB Aqua Jet Lapras and Chople Berry Walrein to not be sweeped by fire (which I remind you already need Specs to break Mega Sableye), StunPowder Whimsicott, Bug not being able to switch MegaPinsir for another Mega, etc...
Ik seeing this type of discussion pop up may be a shock to a lot of people including yourself, mostly bc it's been banned for a while and people assume its OP without testing. So, here's what I suggest to you: make a decent fire team with it, with or without mega, that may give you a clearer insight on the situation. The meta changes, and I feel in this senario (testing it myself), it may not be a bad idea to at least discuss it, but you definatley have you educate yourself a bit more on it before saying anything. If you would like I can pass you the team I've been trying with it (you can always swap out char y or vice versa depending on what you wanna test). Click here for it.
 
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You said swords dance, baton pass, poison jab, knock off, stone edge, and with the hjk/flare blitz. Dude you only have 4 moves, and you need 2 filler (since its always required to have high jump kick and flare blitz). Fire could really use blaziken and it could help up with matches like rock and normal which fire autoloses too (doesnt autolose to normal but its really fucking annoying to get rid of chansey and porygon2 with a staraptor with intimidate). It could bring up fire's bad usage now while also giving it a nice fast sweeper since all the fire pokemon arent relatively fast unless you put a scarf on it, and with a battle i had with stun with my dragon vs his fire, blaziken didnt do a whole lot in the battle since it really struggles off to get a sd off or try to hit a pokemon really hard since you need to make room for other moves from aside swords dance. I could really see it benefiting Fire a lot. Also remember i never said fighting, i only said fire, blaziken on fighting would be really powerful and make fighting stupid (Even tho situational, Sd+knock off sweeps psychic, giving fighting a laugh as it sweeps and destroys your slowbro and mega gardevoir). Hope they bring back type bans.
Please read the damn first TWO lines of my post before answering.
 
Please read the damn first TWO lines of my post before answering.
Im using the same counter-arguement tho. It only has 4 slots, and you suggested a lot of possible options but some dont work on some pokemon, like idk hows protect gonna deal with dragonite or skarmory or how poison jab is gonna hit anything hard except fairy types. You are overreacting over how diverse but few its moves are, this isnt a genesect movepool and its only limited to 1 move after it has its required moves, i dont know how this is "OMG WAY TOO BROKEN, SWEEPS EVERYTHING" type of deal, we never even got to experience blaziken in gen 6 and we dont even know if its that broken in this meta or not. So come up with a better counter-arguement than "Please read the DAMN first two lines of my post before answering".
 
Of course it can't do everything at once, but it doesn't have to. Swords Dance Blaziken is a wallbreaker and set up sweeper that destroy Balanced and Stall, but has a harder time against offense (which it sweeps as well if it gets a turn to get a speed boost). Protect Blaziken demolishes Offense and still does great against balanced teams and decently well against Stall. Baton Pass is a surprise set to take advantage of those that think they have Blaziken beaten (or are hoping it'll kill itself with recoil).

Those other options are what I said, options to get rid of the few hard checks that Blaziken does have, but even those are hardly checks at all (at +2 they are almost all killed after SR by either HJK or Flare Blitz as I showed last page). There is a reason Blaziken was banned in a meta that contained MegaKhan and MegaGengar and that had Talonflame as a perfect revenge killer for it (which I actually played least you all thing I don't have experience with the bird).
 
I agree that blaziken shouldnt really be up for discussion the damage it does is insane once it gets enough speed you will be forced to either wall it or use priority to revenge it, this is where problems come into effect some types just don't have the priority to revenge it for example Normal and Ghost, normal has its team building limited forcing the diggersby and lopunny mega to be used just to take it out but even then one of those two is going down by that point they will have number example, Ghost also struggles to take this thing out as it one shots thier bulkiest mons for example
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 382-452 (94.5 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 343-406 (89.7 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
not going to include aegi in this calc cuz it can easily set up on it same with sableye.
Trying to outright wall this thing wont be an opton either as the meta will just evolve and start using fire blast to muscle past some of its physical walls its not like weve not seen this kind of thing happen in the past examples of situations like this is the evolution of HP ground Volc, Gutscross and the re emergence of rockslide landorus i to help vs flying on ground
Later on i will try get some replays of this thing against some mono teams
 
I agree that blaziken shouldnt really be up for discussion the damage it does is insane once it gets enough speed you will be forced to either wall it or use priority to revenge it, this is where problems come into effect some types just don't have the priority to revenge it for example Normal and Ghost, normal has its team building limited forcing the diggersby and lopunny mega to be used just to take it out but even then one of those two is going down by that point they will have number example, Ghost also struggles to take this thing out as it one shots thier bulkiest mons for example
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 382-452 (94.5 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 343-406 (89.7 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
not going to include aegi in this calc cuz it can easily set up on it same with sableye.
Trying to outright wall this thing wont be an opton either as the meta will just evolve and start using fire blast to muscle past some of its physical walls its not like weve not seen this kind of thing happen in the past examples of situations like this is the evolution of HP ground Volc, Gutscross and the re emergence of rockslide landorus i to help vs flying on ground
Later on i will try get some replays of this thing against some mono teams
Quoting this post to start an argument.

I can see most of your calcs include Adamant Blaziken. What does that mean? Yes, with its not that great speed tier it is forced to run Protect to get a Speed Boost up. Also +1 normal Blaziken (especially Adamant) is slow enough to be outsped by the majority of other scarfers. Now leaving that aside, to set up you will obviously need Swords Dance or any other set-up move, and as Balto already said, that leaves you with 2 slots to pick your moves (which will most likely be Flare Blitz and High Jump Kick or whatever Blaziken runs I'm not familiar with it) which means you don't have place for Knock Off in there unless you choose to give up on one of your STABs which severely weakens Blaziken because its Attack stat might be great but not as threatening without high BP moves. And do you choose not to run Swords Dance Blaziken won't be more of a threat than a banded Scolipede with Megahorn minus the fact it can't get burned. I'd say we should consider base form Blaziken, at least give it a try?

On a side note, this isn't anything I'm salty about and I obviously can't say against the council but I think removing the type-only bans has made the metagame generic and removed a lot of entertainment factors from monotype. I was hoping we could see the metagame changing a bit by adding back Blaziken, and the reason I'm saying this is it would be definitely a good argument adding Blaziken for fire only.
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
On a side note, this isn't anything I'm salty about and I obviously can't say against the council but I think removing the type-only bans has made the metagame generic and removed a lot of entertainment factors from monotype. I was hoping we could see the metagame changing a bit by adding back Blaziken, and the reason I'm saying this is it would be definitely a good argument adding Blaziken for fire only.
In addition to disagreeing with many of your points (it's very possible to get adamant blaze to +2 if you play well, sometimes even if you don't have protect), we are not adding another type ban.

Let me make this very clear. WE ARE NOT ALLOWING BLAZIKEN BACK ON FIRE AND AT THE SAME TIME NOT ALLOWING IT BACK ON FIGHTING.

Now, you probably know that I don't want blaziken back in any case, but this is an extremely important point that you should understand before going further. Allow me to make myself explicitly clear here.

We are not allowing Blaziken under a type ban. We are getting rid of type bans, not adding them. We don't want to add a type-ban just to allow a probably-broken mon back into the meta. Blaziken is not just getting back in on Fire.

Repeat: We will not add a type-ban just for blaziken.

Hopefully that message was just about clear enough that I won't have to bring it up another three thousand times.
Edit: typo
 
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Josh

=P
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WE ARE NOT ALLOWING BLAZIKEN BACK ON FIRE AND AT THE SAME TIME NOT ALLOWING IT BACK ON STEEL.
I'd hope it wouldn't be allowed on steel, steel is good enough as it is. ;)

I do agree with no type bans though. And unbanning Blaziken seems really bad imo. What could possibly go wrong letting a super powerful pokemon that cant be revenge killed with 2 spammable stabs, coverage options and the potential to pass to its teammates for round 2? Blaziken is pretty much Kyuw level for Ice, we don't want to turn a less played type into a less played type with a broken pokemon that 6-0s 3+ types alone. If we want to test ANY Uber down I could see Giratina (not griseous orb tho) potentially being balanced, seeing as it lacks reliable recovery n stuff, but I'm at school and don't have time for a big post with calcs n stuff so I'll leave it.
 
In addition to disagreeing with many of your points (it's very possible to get adamant blaze to +2 if you play well, sometimes even if you don't have protect), we are not adding another type ban.

Let me make this very clear. WE ARE NOT ALLOWING BLAZIKEN BACK ON FIRE AND AT THE SAME TIME NOT ALLOWING IT BACK ON STEEL.

Now, you probably know that I don't want blaziken back in any case, but this is an extremely important point that you should understand before going further. Allow me to make myself explicitly clear here.

We are not allowing Blaziken under a type ban. We are getting rid of type bans, not adding them. We don't want to add a type-ban just to allow a probably-broken mon back into the meta. Blaziken is not just getting back in on Fire.

Repeat: We will not add a type-ban just for blaziken.

Hopefully that message was just about clear enough that I won't have to bring it up another three thousand times.
I wasn't hoping for a type ban, as I said I am not going to go against the rules of monotype, I know already there won't be more type bans, don't have to write it in bold for me to understand.
 
Quoting this post to start an argument.

I can see most of your calcs include Adamant Blaziken. What does that mean? Yes, with its not that great speed tier it is forced to run Protect to get a Speed Boost up. Also +1 normal Blaziken (especially Adamant) is slow enough to be outsped by the majority of other scarfers. Now leaving that aside, to set up you will obviously need Swords Dance or any other set-up move, and as Balto already said, that leaves you with 2 slots to pick your moves (which will most likely be Flare Blitz and High Jump Kick or whatever Blaziken runs I'm not familiar with it) which means you don't have place for Knock Off in there unless you choose to give up on one of your STABs which severely weakens Blaziken because its Attack stat might be great but not as threatening without high BP moves. And do you choose not to run Swords Dance Blaziken won't be more of a threat than a banded Scolipede with Megahorn minus the fact it can't get burned. I'd say we should consider base form Blaziken, at least give it a try?

On a side note, this isn't anything I'm salty about and I obviously can't say against the council but I think removing the type-only bans has made the metagame generic and removed a lot of entertainment factors from monotype. I was hoping we could see the metagame changing a bit by adding back Blaziken, and the reason I'm saying this is it would be definitely a good argument adding Blaziken for fire only.
Setting up doenst really need protect, all it takes is for you to bluff it and thats a free switch or you bring it in on a predicted check coming in making 2 boosts easy to get, for the record i did the math and an adamant blaziken at +2 is only outsped by base 108+ scarfers, which is an extremely low number this would allow you to run 3 attacks and SD, also comparing blaziken to scolipede isnt a great comparison as blaziken has a higher attack stat than scolipede even when jolly as well as having a much better offencive typing the only advantage scoli has is speed. And say you did run jolly that would allow some minor investment in bulk as you only need a 264 speed stat to outspeed scarf base 110 this leaves you with approximately 80 EVs to invest to take certain hits better. As a whole it does seem like it would really limit team building and would be over centralising in the way that altaria-mega was
 
I think most of us can agree Blaziken wouldn't be a terrible addition to Fire teams, it's fighting that a lot of us are concerned about. If you think about it for a moment (theory-moning), if you were to run Mega, you would have a great fast sweeper with nice offensive typing. It 2ko's skarm on swicth in, so you wouldn't have to rely on Infernape or Keldeo so much, and it helps against bug as well (helps as in probably demolishing), but you have a soft check to Yanmega (whose been rising in popularity since the Genesect ban). However, with running a mega, you lose out on the amazing natural bulk of Gallade, and the immediate wallbreaking power of Medicham, plus Mega Venusaur becomes more of a problem. If you don't run mega, you do have a bit more power thanks to life orb, but with only 1 speed boost with an adamant nature, your not outspeeding much until you get another boost. In a sense it is debatable, could potentially be a great sweeper, but it does have its minuses.

Based on what was just said, I think we should try to play with it on fighting against various types, and see how much harm it would do, it wouldn't hurt to at least toy with it.

(Btw, lets ditch the SD argument, because when is it gonna be able to set up, and what move would you replace for it? It doesn't have great defensive typing, so a lot of common typed attacks can take it out, and for SD, you'd probably replace knock off or protect, both are fairly needed for its overall success.)

Edit: it also brings the niche of a nice WoW absorber, so you wouldn't have to rely on Conk, Heracross, or statusing your keldeo.
 
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I think most of us can agree Blaziken wouldn't be a terrible addition to Fire teams, it's fighting that a lot of us are concerned about. If you think about it for a moment (theory-moning), if you were to run Mega, you would have a great fast sweeper with nice offensive typing. It 2ko's skarm on swicth in, so you wouldn't have to rely on Infernape or Keldeo so much, and it helps against bug as well (helps as in probably demolishing), but you have a soft check to Yanmega (whose been rising in popularity since the Genesect ban). However, with running a mega, you lose out on the amazing natural bulk of Gallade, and the immediate wallbreaking power of Medicham, plus Mega Venusaur becomes more of a problem. If you don't run mega, you do have a bit more power thanks to life orb, but with only 1 speed boost with an adamant nature, your not outspeeding much until you get another boost. In a sense it is debatable, could potentially be a great sweeper, but it does have its minuses.

Based on what was just said, I think we should try to play with it on fighting against various types, and see how much harm it would do, it wouldn't hurt to at least toy with it.

(Btw, lets ditch the SD argument, because when is it gonna be able to set up, and what move would you replace for it? It doesn't have great defensive typing, so a lot of common typed attacks can take it out, and for SD, you'd probably replace knock off or protect, both are fairly needed for its overall success.)

Edit: it also brings the niche of a nice WoW absorber, so you wouldn't have to rely on Conk, Heracross, or statusing your keldeo.
Mega blaziken is not the one up for discussion its only normal blaziken for the time being, and the setting up is a huge argument as it is and deserves recognition as the set up is the thing that truly makes this thing threatening as it takes a 2hko to an OHKO, The poor defencive type ins a minor issue but this thing can set up easily on many will-o-wisp users and those that lack the coverage to beat it as in fairness it only has 4 weaknesses and 7 ressitances make it easy to set up, your also neglecting the fact that the offencive threat of an individual pokemon is to be accounted for as pinsir will normally set up on the switch and sometimes even on certain walls. Also even if we were discussing mega blaziken the thing gets brave bird which would allow it to muscle past venusaur which comes back to the argument is that it can be tailor made to fit the team which iirc was one of the things that got greninja banned from mono as it could be tailored to help with a teams specific weaknesses.
 
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thesecondbest

Just Kidding I'm First
Look at scolipede and then at blaze. Besides Blaze's ability to go mixed, they have pretty similar stats. Scolipede is faster and physically bulkier but with way lower special attack and slightly lower attack and spdef. Both have swords dance, both have good coverage, but scolipede even has the hazard lead set. Maybe blaze is broken, but it isn't very obvious to me and I think it at least warrants some testing and not immediate discarding. I've used blaze in ubers in the past and it could never set up an SD. Maybe in mono it can, but at least have an open mind please.
 
You've neglected to look at their typing's on the offence, blaziken doesnt have to rely on its coverage, Bug/Poison is no where near as much of a threat as Fighting/Fire as stab which in turn means blaziken doesnt need as much coverage to be effective and has more offensive presence, ubers is a different metagame where blaziken has more checks, I will try get some replays where i test out blaziken on fire and if i can get a team together ill try to test fighting to
 
You've neglected to look at their typing's on the offence, blaziken doesnt have to rely on its coverage, Bug/Poison is no where near as much of a threat as Fighting/Fire as stab which in turn means blaziken doesnt need as much coverage to be effective and has more offensive presence, ubers is a different metagame where blaziken has more checks, I will try get some replays where i test out blaziken on fire and if i can get a team together ill try to test fighting to
Offense or not, the question is how well can it be handled, whether it be by offensive means, or more than likely defensively. If you run brave bird for exacple, slowbro and Psychic in general would be more tedious. I'm backing thesecondbest on this 1, he's making a pretty decent comparison.
 
We dont have any proof where it seems that it just cant be unbanned and must remained banned because its too powerful. Take in what scpinion said, get some replays against some types, i recommend at least 2 battles for every type using both fire and fighting too see if its that bad or if its not that bad.

KGBeast actually suggested that we should just ban the speed boost ability to sustain blaziken being too broken. This looks like a good idea as it wont be a super fast physical sweeper that destroys everything, just a based blaziken. This idea seems promising.
 
We dont have any proof where it seems that it just cant be unbanned and must remained banned because its too powerful. Take in what scpinion said, get some replays against some types, i recommend at least 2 battles for every type using both fire and fighting too see if its that bad or if its not that bad.

KGBeast actually suggested that we should just ban the speed boost ability to sustain blaziken being too broken. This looks like a good idea as it wont be a super fast physical sweeper that destroys everything, just a based blaziken. This idea seems promising.
That would be a really Complex ban, something the council is not willing to do. Without Speed Boost Infernape would actually be better, Only thing what would be different is that Knock Off and it also gets Agility.

I can understand that it would not be broken, but do we really need to make out Banlist more complicated by making complex bans that aren’t really needed?
 
A while ago when greninja was banned I advocated for greninja to be unbanned on the condition that it could only use torrent. The fact of the matter is we could do that with a lot of uber pokemon by just banning a move, ability, or what have you (not worth all of the possibilities).

If blaziken is allowed back it is to have speed boost and not be type banned. I'm very much so against this idea though, blaziken by itself was uber in gen 5 and even now I would like to think it is too much for mono. Any advocaters of unbanning should get started on custom replays before this becomes a boring drawn out topic.
 
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