Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

Sacri'

the end is here
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
A- → A

I've wanted to talk about this for a little while. Gurdurr is fantastic right now, it is extremely valuable for most teams, it checks most physical attackers extremely well on top of being a great win condition. Simply put, Bulk Up gurdurr has the potential to threaten every single type of team thanks to Guts + access to knock off & mach punch. I've used it a lot lately and it has been able to put a ton of work in a several number of games, the fact that Mesprit usually dislikes gettting knocked off allows it to create great mindgames, forcing the opponent to think twice before switching mesprit into gurdurr. Gardobors a bit annoying but it cant do much back to Gurdurr so it's definitively not that big of a deal. Most pokemons that would want to switch into it get crippled by Knock off which usually means that Gurdurr can switch out and come back to threaten the whole team later on. It's ability to heal up with drain punch makes up for the lack of leftovers. Ghost types like Rotom do pretty poorly versus it because they cant do that much damages to it and WoW just makes Knock off stronger. Fighting priority is extremely valuable because things like Tauros and Shiftry are very common. Things like vileplume or weezing do a decent job at walling it even though knock off is always annoying to them but both are really passive and a lot of things in the tier can pressure both of them without much problem.

tl;dr: Gurdurr brings much more to a team than any other A- rank, being a valuable win condition + decent check to a lot of common things + effective versus most styles is definitively enough to push Gurdurr to A.
 

erisia

Innovative new design!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
A -> A-: Agree: Hariyama is a good mon and its unique resistances and ability to use an Assault Vest make it a really good stop-gap for teams that otherwise struggle with special attackers. With that said, the standard AV set is also quite easy to check, with every good team packing a solid switch-in to Close Combat and many Psychic- and Ghost-types going back to running Colbur Berry due to the reappearance of Gurdurr. I really enjoy AV Guts as a surprise Scald switch-in that becomes slightly less passive in some matchups, but I think this set is also A- worthy. Choice Band is also a fun wallbreaker but its Speed-tier is bad compared to even other slow wallbreakers such as Aurorus and Torterra, and its defenses are only passable without any investment, being OHKOed by most strong super-effective STABs. Hariyama hasn't really gotten any worse but I thought it was quite overrated to begin with.

B+ -> B: Disagree: Oh look a slow defensive mon with some vulnerabilities. I think Vileplume fits quite well with the likes of Ferroseed and Gourgeist-XL as a defensive Grass-type that you switch in to check stuff, then either land some chip damage or a status move, heal up, or switch out when the opponent brings in their check. Vileplume in particular is great for switching into Knock Off and punishing contact attackers; sleeping and paralyzing stuff that you switch into is hilarious and makes Vileplume really great at gaining momentum from pivoting into threats. Base 110 SpA is also great and Sludge Bomb, while being easy to wall with stuff like Skuntank, is pretty great against most neutral targets, and again the large Poison-chance is great. Offensive sets are also a lot of fun and Hidden Power Ground variants do a great job of luring Skuntank so your Psychic-type (read, your secondary Fighting-resist) can sweep. If anything I think this mon should go to A-!

C- -> D: Disagree: Sandslash is a godawful spinner and the only reason it's C- rank as far as I know is its Sand Rush set, alongside its brothers in Hippopotas and Stoutland. I don't mind this going to D per sé but if it does then Hippo and maybe Stoutland need to go unranked, and we've already discussed how that's not ideal.

C -> Unranked: Agree: Now the blacklist is over can we just remove this? It's used by absolutely no-one due to its abysmal reputation and the ease with which you can predict what it will do, because literally every other set is outclassed by a rival Ice-type. Oh and here's an obligatory "Bronzor walls this into oblivion" mention.

Unranked -> C-: Agree: If Bronzor can rise to B- then this can definitely rise to C-. Frillish has a definite niche as a spinblocker with reliable recovery and Scald immunity. It's also one of the best Tauros checks out there and it's not even that passive between Will-O-Wisp, Taunt, and Night Shade (well, unless you're facing Sub Tauros).

C -> Unranked: So Duosion is a Musharna variant that doesn't mind Toxic. This is all well and good but Skuntank is everywhere, Knock Off is everywhere, and Bronzor completely walls this thing even at +6. It can even use Skill Swap to give itself Magic Guard and then use Toxic on you! Heck even Aggron makes this thing struggle since there's no way it's running Hidden Power and Psyshock isn't going to do crap. Duosion is a nice gimmick at times but the fact that this was C rank when Musharna was A+ should tell you that this should be unranked now.
 

Blast

Member of the Alien Nation
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
A -> A-: Agree: Hariyama is a good mon and its unique resistances and ability to use an Assault Vest make it a really good stop-gap for teams that otherwise struggle with special attackers. With that said, the standard AV set is also quite easy to check, with every good team packing a solid switch-in to Close Combat and many Psychic- and Ghost-types going back to running Colbur Berry due to the reappearance of Gurdurr. I really enjoy AV Guts as a surprise Scald switch-in that becomes slightly less passive in some matchups, but I think this set is also A- worthy. Choice Band is also a fun wallbreaker but its Speed-tier is bad compared to even other slow wallbreakers such as Aurorus and Torterra, and its defenses are only passable without any investment, being OHKOed by most strong super-effective STABs. Hariyama hasn't really gotten any worse but I thought it was quite overrated to begin with.
All of those flaws are really generic. Being slow is something that applies to half the tier, including several mons in A and up, and having common checks and counters is something you expect from all the tier. If its checks and counters were a particularly pronounced problem for it, that might be worth considering, but I wouldn't even say that. Considering it has a ridiculously good coverage move in Knock Off, which is especially good coverage on a Fighting-type, and a bunch of other coverage moves on top of that, it has more than a few ways of remaining consistently useful against counters. It's the same case with its Speed. Ok, it's slow, even slower than a lot of other Pokemon that are also considered "slow." But why is that such a problem for Hariyama in particular? Not only does it have the bulk and resistances to make up for it, but you compensate for this flaw the same way you do for anything that isn't blazingly fast: you run Pokemon that can deal with faster-paced teams. It has its flaws, as it should, but I don't see how that makes it overrated when those flaws are about as generic as they are.
 
Unranking Duosion doesn't make sense. One of the key reasons, besides Skuntank usage which has been up there for quite a while, that Musharna has dropped off is that a lot teams always have counter measure for it and it usually involves crippling it with Toxic (through something like Steelix for instance) or pressuring it to the point where it runs out of Moonlight PP (Recover's PP and reliability regardless of weather is a pretty nice benefit for Duosion). You're really underselling how useful Magic Guard is because it forces to opponent to use a more direct means of checking it since status won't cut it short of sweep and that alone makes it more than a gimmick. Also Knock Off has been everywhere since Duosion was ranked, so I don't see how that's changed now. It's not exactly hard to pair Duosion alongside a Pokemon that can take advantage of Knock Off users; I just feel like you're looking at this too much in a vacuum rather than looking at its performance in practice. Bronzor is definitely threatening for it, but it's still not /that/ common if you look at its usage stats from last month (sitting at #92 so it's not even close to NU usage). Either way though, no one is going to stay in on Bronzor after getting Skill Swapped, let alone stay in on the turn it switches in the first place. A drop to C- would be more appropriate, but unranking it is too extreme.
 

shiloh

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Tiering Lead
hm havent posted here in a while but i have an opinion i wanna air!!

* * keep in c

while i know lots of ppl want to de-rank it, ive honestly been using it quite a bit while laddering and i think its still decent enough and has a nice to stay in c. ive been using a team made by FLCL with it and so far the set of ice beam / freeze dry / ice shard / explosion @ nevermeltice. its great at destroying balance and fatter teams since nothing wants to take an ice beam from it, and having a great speed tier and freeze dry allows it to mess with teams that rely on things like lanturn to handle it. explosion is huge for it luring in mag / yama which other ice types have a problem doing without running a gimmicky set. since the set ive been using doesnt have lo, its very easy to bluff a choice item and boom on the switch which only helps its solidify its niche further.

also lol @ "oh it cant touch bronzor its bad" that doesnt mean it should lose its ranking just b/c it cant do what every other ice type can do and what a large variety of mons cant do for that part. just b/c a new counter for a mon is found doenst mean the mon suddenly becomes unviable or bad, it just means it has another check in the metagame that isnt even common as can be seen by its B- ranking and its inability to work on most non-stall builds.
 
B+ -> B: CB Aggron is cool and hits like a truck but Gastro/Steelix/Don being so prevalent makes it really hard to spam Head Smash, making Aggron dead weight too often. Also being a Steel/Rock type that can't check Tauros Kanga or Archeops really doesn't help its case and makes it hard to justify putting on a team over Rhydon or Steelix.

A -> A-: Disagree with this. CB Guts Yama is terrifying right now I can literally count the number of pokemon that switch in multiple times to this thing on one hand. Ever since Sawk left people have really underestimated the value of having a fighting type with huge immediate power unlike alternative Fighting types like Chan and Gurdurr. Yama also has more room to reliably get past traditional counters such as Garb and Scyther, since all it really needs is CC and Knock to do its job. Lastly the utility of the Thick Fat AV set is still prevalent as having a reliable switch in to Fire and Ice types that isn't totally passive and loses momentum is huge for more offensive squads.

C - > UR: Disagree. Won't get too into this b/c rozes already did a pretty good job summing up my thoughts, but yeah Explosion is absolutely huge, and the ability to run Ice Shard to pick off super relevant mons such as Vivi, Lilligant, Swellow, and Archeops is a godsend. These two factors alone that separate it from other Ice-types like Aurorus, Articuno, and Lapras should be enough to keep it in C/C- at least. Just because nobody uses it doesn't mean it shouldn't be ranked.

Not the most wild suggestions in the world but I figured i'd give my 2 cents. Overall the VR look solid to me tho good job boys
 

erisia

Innovative new design!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I've never really seen CB Yama in a match so idk about its threat level in general, but if it was more common I'd be more inclined to give it A rank since it looks really hard to wall between all of its attributes and 144/60/60 uninvested bulk is admittedly better than i gave it credit for.

Agree with points in Duosion, Eternally asked me to nom this and using Mush again lots of teams save Toxic Steelix as their Mush check so I can see Duosion's niche still being somewhat useful.

About Vanilluxe, I get that Ice Beam + Explosion is still hard to wall, but it's not luring so much as stopping people from doubling into their Ghost-type or Normal-resist in case a noob using Vanilluxe goes for Ice Beam again. I guess if anything its low usage makes it harder to predict whether it's running the good set or not too. I also agree that a good player could mix it up and be more dangerous and unpredictable with how they play it, even without varying the set. Life Orb Ice Shard is also a good niche for the reasons stated so I'm happy for Vanilluxe to stay C-. Being forced to boom or switch on other Ice-types (even Jynx and Cryogonal) is still kinda bleh.
 
Last edited:

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
C to C- / unranked
Don't get me wrong; by no means am I a proponent for Vanilluxe but I do recognize its extremely miniscule niche, which is why I even bothered to consider it for C- as opposed to flat out UR like others have. rozes, you said something along the lines of "Explosion being great for 'efficiently' luring Yama and Mortar" and "being walled by Bronzor isn't enough for a drop in Rank".

To the first point, you have to be aware that you're considering Vanilluxe solely on the fact that it is being used to lure those two, since you're better off with the other main Ice-type breakers in nearly all other situations. Plus, you have to take into account that opponents are also aware that Explosion luring is the only reason you're using Vanilluxe at all, so being able to nail those two isn't always a guarantee since there's always the risk of the Explosion being baited. Not to mention, how many Pokemon need Yama and Mortar specifically to be lured out, as opposed to perhaps just one of them? Among the list, I can only really see things like Pyroar and Lilligant benefiting from this specific support, and honestly you only really need have the existing Ice-type breakers just whittle them into KO range as opposed to resorting to the immediate but not particularly necessary Explosion KO, since those two Ice-type checks have no recovery. Aka, Explosion is just a mild bonus Vanilluxe can pull off, but its purpose is not accomplishing an impossible feat that the other Ice-types cannot perform already. Also correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't AV Mortars starting to invest enough for neutral base 80s to combat Specs Mesprit and the like, which forces Vanilluxe to forgo its +SpA nature or risk literally halving its usefulness?

To the second point, it's not just Bronzor that is throwing a wrench into Vanilluxe's plans. People have been resorting to other responses to the main Ice-type breakers, such as Thick Fat Miltank and SpD MAudino, which are becoming relevant / gaining traction. Recall that Vanilluxe's only real niche (waaay) back then was to be able to break through all the traditional Ice-type checks in Mortar, Yama, and Grumpig I guess. Now that people are expanding their options and Vanilluxe is no longer capable of just punching through all of the current Ice-type checks like it once could, wouldn't you come to the conclusion that Vanilluxe's niche has weakened?

Tl;dr:
explosion is huge for it luring in mag / yama which other ice types have a problem doing without running a gimmicky set
You're using a Vanilluxe, which is a gimmicky Pokemon outright. You're gonna need prediction anyway since you need to time the Explosion correctly, so just pack a mixed EQ Abomasnow or something instead of digging the bottom of the barrel.

Edit: For basically all intents and purposes, even the statistically inferior Glalie can do more or less what you intend to use Vanilluxe for, and even Glalie manages to be a bit more versatile with Super Fang, Taunt, Spikes and shit to handle the other Ice checks, yet we don't acknowledge it because it's fairly established that its few niches aren't solid enough to warrant its use. Hell, in this current meta, I'd even go so far as to say Glalie is more deserving of C- than Vanilluxe, if only because it does the "screws with Ice checks" more consistently than Vanilluxe at this point.
 
Last edited:

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Update:

Rotom-S C -> UR
Frillish UR -> C-
Machoke UR -> C-
Dusknoir UR -> C
Vanilluxe C -> C-
Duosion C -> C-
Prinplup C+ -> C
Clefairy B- -> B
Mantine B -> B+
Aggron B+ -> B
Gurdurr A- -> A

Discussion Points:

Bouffalant C+ > C / C-
Altaria C > C+ / B-
Solrock C- >C / C+
Piloswine B+ > A-

Regarding Dusknoir: Even though it didn't get any more significant discussion in the thread, we decided to rank it after its impressive showing in the NU open that was used on Omfuga's very successful Spikestack balance. It's certainly not the most splashable Pokemon out there but its certainly got its fair share of niches and is definitely on the same value of the likes of lesser used 'mons such as Gourgeist-S and Gorebyss in terms of what it brings to a team.

Lastly, the nomination for bumping up Hitmonchan to A+ has been brought up a few times and has been essentially shut down in the voting all of the times, so I'd rather that not be discussed anymore unless we get any more significant metagame changes that would justify it raising.
 

Shadestep

volition immanent
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I think Piloswine should rise. It's a great SR user that offers far more than being able to pressure Xatu. While it may not look like the best Rocker in the tier, not offering much with its secondary typing, it has a lot going for it. For one, a lot of teams literally crumble down to Ground - Ice coverage, making them having to predict around Piloswine constantly. It's also a SR user that naturally pressures Xatu, which is really nice.
Aside from that, it's one of the best Pokemon to use vs offense, since nothing really KOs it without being threatened by either Icicle Crash or Earthquake.

Piloswine is also one of the few Stealth Rockers in the tier that isn't pure set-up bait for Lilligant, as it can obviously OHKO it with Icicle Crash. A priority STAB-move on a defensive mon, with scary set-up sweepers like Vivillon and Lilligant in the tier? Perfect. It's often overlooked as a stealth rocker since it's not a normal resist, which obviously sucks but there's plenty of mons that do and you shouldn't have to solely rely on Piloswine to take all Normal-type attacks, even though it actually has decent matchup vs most Normal-types in the tier. Swellow can't even dent it too hard and Icicle Crash obviously KOs back. Same thing with Tauros and Kangaskhan;you can often trade with them in a 1 on 1 situation, but as an added bonus Kangaskhan wears herself down with Recoil damage and Tauros has inaccurate moves.

All in all, Piloswine is a great Pokemon that can often really plow through many (mostly BO/Offense) underprepared teams, and it's certainly a great Pokemon to have. It also counters non-Focus Blast Jynx which is a huuuge plus since I think it's the only SR-user that does that! Definitely A- worthy.
 

Pilo

uses walther
is a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
I'll bite.

Piloswine's role compression makes it super splashable on balance and I've honestly been using it a lot on some of my more recent teams, it's an excellent Stealth Rock setter with good offensive typing is pretty decent and it can pressure Xatu pretty well as shade said. Ice Shard is also a super good move, it lets pilo pick off top threats in the tier like lilli, swellow, and archeops which is a huge plus imo.

Shade also mentioned that Piloswine isn't a normal resist, something that is for the most part expected of Stealth Rockers, but Pilo has enough positive criteria that I think this fact is possible to overlook. Thick Fat is icing on the cake so to speak; it, in conjunction with eviolite gives lets Piloswine soften up a ton of hits and grants it surprisingly decent bulk. It can chew a fire-type move and checks stuff like Aurorus and non-Focus Blast Jynx (the latter of which is a top mon rn) too but I'm not going to get to far into that since shade already mentioned it.

The main points I want to stress are Piloswine's role compression and splashability. Firstly, Pilo provides SR, an electric immunity, an ice resist, and priority so it's not at all hard to fit onto a team. To reiterate Pilo is decently splashable and compresses quite a few offensive and defensive roles into a single slot in addition to checking a lot of good mons some offensively and others defensively, def warrants consideration for A-.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Drop to C-

There are a couple of reasons to use Bouffalant: access to Sap Sipper, being a Normal-type with Swords Dance, and bulk. Already Sawsbuck gives Bouffalant a huge run for its money by occupying the two aforementioned niches, as well as having additional advantages such as Speed, Grass STAB, and even Baton Pass if it so wishes. So is Bouffalant's bulk worth it? Simply put, Bouffalant's lack of Speed, workable resists, and reliable recovery means its bulk is only short-term, especially if you're intending to run something like Choice Band Head Charge on this, meaning it won't be able to weather attacks for too long. SD Bouffalant's coverage isn't particularly impressive either, and it still struggles against a variety of bulky Pokemon such as Gourgeist, Weezing, Bronzor, Levitating Ghosts, etc. Other factors include Bouffalant only really stopping Lilligant and Ferroseed among the relevant Grass-types, as the others can either cripple it or do major damage that it can't shrug off, as well as the fact that nearly any team that is properly insured against the current offensive Normal-type monsters, such as Tauros, Kangaskhan, and Zangoose, shouldn't struggle too much with this.

Rise to C+

Physically defensive Altaria can be pretty cute in this meta: it's able to fend off a wide variety of threats like Shiftry, pretty much every Fire-type (including SD Zard), Gurdurr, SD Samurott, Malamar, Musharna, Gastrodon, etc. due to a combination of its defensive typing, Roost, and Haze. However, its SR weakness can put a noticeable damper in its ability to wall threats (particularly the Fire-types), its offensive presence outside of Toxic is pretty poor, and its congested moveset for effectively dealing with those aforementioned threats leaves it little room for any other nifty moves it might want to use, like Heal Bell or Perish Song and whatnot, so C+ seems more appropriate imo.

Stay in C-

I feel like Solrock's niche of being a Fire, Normal, and Flying check with reliable recovery hasn't really improved since its inception on the VR. I mean it fends off AV Magmortar, Kangaskhan, and Swellow nicely enough, but Specs Pyroar can cleanly 2HKO Solrock with HP Grass after SR, SD Zard can force an annoying stalemate as it Roost stalls your burned uninvested Stone Edges, Archeops flat out 2HKOes with Stone Edge, and even its Ground immunity is somewhat undermined by the fact that +2 Jolly Rhydon's Stone Edge OHKOes Solrock. Solrock is also sort of a victim of the presence of other bulky threats: Mega Audino and Rhydon have steered roughly a fifth of Tauros to run Steel coverage, and Malamar's presence means that Bug coverage such as Rhydon's Megahorn, Mesprit's Signal Beam, and even Archeops's U-turn have to be taken into account. Having a ton of weaknesses, including to Pursuit, is annoying too. The best thing I can say about Solrock is that it can be tricky to dodge its Will-O-Wisps, although status absorbers / clerics or a timely Xatu switch-in have pretty much nothing to fear from Solrock. Sometimes I feel a more mixed defensive variant of Lunatone can wall what Solrock does a little more safely, albeit at the obvious cost of Wisp.

On the fence; leaning on staying B+

Piloswine is definitely a contender for A-. It has a brilliant STAB combination which can be a massive pain to switch into, is one of the few solid Ice checks in the tier, is bulky, and has access to Stealth Rock and Ice Shard, so it has some strong utility going for it. However, the big problem I have with Piloswine is that its poor Speed, zero recovery, and overall few resists means it can have a tricky time actually entering the field to start putting in work. While it has all those good qualities, it can be easy to forget that setting up Stealth Rock and threatening stuff with its STAB combo with the Speed it has can be a pretty tall ask at times. Most of the time Piloswine is delegated to soft-checking most frailer attackers, namely threatening the OHKO on Pokemon that 2HKO it, so there's not too much mons that Pilo can afford to switch in on. Should the opponent have a solid Piloswine check, such as Gastrodon, Mega Audino, Weezing, Pelipper, etc., Piloswine's presence can become really diminished as a result.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UR to C-;
C- to UR

No I'm not going crazy again. This time I decided to actually investigate what makes Freeze-Dry + Explosion so appealing, and lemme just preface this by saying I've gained more respect for you guys by tolerating putting up with this bullshit Pokemon. After slogging through the ladder, I decided to give Glalie, the mon I kept bringing up as the closest comparison to Vanilluxe, a go, and they're more or less functionally identical as I expected. (Note: these replays aren't particularly stellar, but I was trying to get relevant matches using these bad Ice-types so you do it if you ain't happy with them)

In these games, Glalie fulfills the criteria of being able to lure out Magmortar and Explode on it, as well as being a Freeze-Dry user with a better Speed tier than Abomasnow to outrun things like SubToxic Mantine, Samurott, and...erm...pre-Sand Rush Sandslash (not that it actually got to threaten the Sand team, but still). Heck, Glalie's Speed tier is better since it can at worst speedtie with base 80s like Mesprit and Kabutops (especially in Game 3).

Yes, I know Glalie is nowhere near as strong as Vanilluxe, and you may already be pulling calcs like Vanilluxe 2HKOing Steelix and Garbodor while Glalie cannot. However, you're not really intending to use Vanilluxe against 1v1 neutral matchups in the first place. Besides, if you're telling me that you'd use Vanilluxe in this day and age for its power and not primarily for its luring purposes, you a damn liar. No, you're using it for the above-average Speed tier Freeze-Dry plus Explosion to get rid of checks, which Glalie has pretty sufficient power for as is. Nevertheless, long gone are the days when Vanilluxe can simply blow up on an Ice check and call it a day, because more and more Ice checks are popping up / becoming more relevant today that can tank the Explosion, including the aforementioned Piloswine. Glalie, on the other hand, is more equipped to deal with those rising Ice checks in addition to the ones it lures already, with Super Fang being especially notable for that. Even Spikes can be considered for Glalie to have some lasting presence before it inevitably bites it, and gives it some added versatility & utility.

Glalie @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus / Ice Body
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Explosion
- Super Fang
- Taunt / Spikes / Ice Shard

vs Hariyama: Explosion does 68 - 80.1%, liable to die after a Super Fang, and is still majorly crippled even without taking the Fang beforehand.
vs Magmortar: Explosion does 87.9 - 103.5% to Modest variants, 97% min against Mild ones. Mild Mortars are instantly in KO range after switching into Freeze-Dry.
vs Grumpig: Explosion does 86.2 - 101.5% to 80 HP offensive variants, deals 75.2 - 89% to SpD variants.
vs Piloswine: Super Fang + Explode puts it between 11.4% to 4.3% (death after SR), ensuring it's not checking anything after that.
vs Bronzor: Super Fang + Taunt keeps it low.
vs Miltank: Super Fang -> Taunt -> Explode puts Miltank roughly between 27-33%.
vs MAudino: Super Fang -> Taunt -> Explode puts MAudino down to at most 20%, assuming it's physically defensive, meaning SpD variants risk taking even more.

Tl;dr: Since you're using Vanilluxe for basically the sole purpose of luring out bulky Ice checks, why not use a mon that can effectively lure a greater number of, if not all, bulky Ice checks, with less risk and prediction required (Super Fang is much safer to thrown out than an immediate Explosion since you still weaken the checks)? There's not a whole lot Vanilluxe can really accomplish that Glalie can't to some extent.
 
Last edited:

Blast

Member of the Alien Nation
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
UR to C-;
C- to UR

No I'm not going crazy again. This time I decided to actually investigate what makes Freeze-Dry + Explosion so appealing, and lemme just preface this by saying I've gained more respect for you guys by tolerating putting up with this bullshit Pokemon. After slogging through the ladder, I decided to give Glalie, the mon I kept bringing up as the closest comparison to Vanilluxe, a go, and they're more or less functionally identical as I expected. (Note: these replays aren't particularly stellar, but I was trying to get relevant matches using these bad Ice-types so you do it if you ain't happy with them)

In these games, Glalie fulfills the criteria of being able to lure out Magmortar and Explode on it, as well as being a Freeze-Dry user with a better Speed tier than Abomasnow to outrun things like SubToxic Mantine, Samurott, and...erm...pre-Sand Rush Sandslash (not that it actually got to threaten the Sand team, but still). Heck, Glalie's Speed tier is better since it can at worst speedtie with base 80s like Mesprit and Kabutops (especially in Game 3).
I really have no clue why you keep insisting the only thing Vanilluxe ever does is explode. If luring stuff was its "only" purpose, why would it bother running Ice Beam or Ice Shard? Clearly those moves are pointless because this Pokemon apparently has zero utility outside of dying in 1-2 turns. If you want to keep acting like its sole purpose is to bait Ice resists, I'm sure could dig through its movepool right now and theorymon up some set that does exactly that and only that. But that's not the case, so stop acting like it is.
Yes, I know Glalie is nowhere near as strong as Vanilluxe, and you may already be pulling calcs like Vanilluxe 2HKOing Steelix and Garbodor while Glalie cannot. However, you're not really intending to use Vanilluxe against 1v1 neutral matchups in the first place. Besides, if you're telling me that you'd use Vanilluxe in this day and age for its power and not primarily for its luring purposes, you a damn liar. No, you're using it for the above-average Speed tier Freeze-Dry plus Explosion to get rid of checks, which Glalie has pretty sufficient power for as is. Nevertheless, long gone are the days when Vanilluxe can simply blow up on an Ice check and call it a day, because more and more Ice checks are popping up / becoming more relevant today that can tank the Explosion, including the aforementioned Piloswine. Glalie, on the other hand, is more equipped to deal with those rising Ice checks in addition to the ones it lures already, with Super Fang being especially notable for that. Even Spikes can be considered for Glalie to have some lasting presence before it inevitably bites it, and gives it some added versatility & utility.
lmao so apparently I'm a liar because I don't use Vanilluxe for the same reasons that you think? Who do you think you are to explain my motives for me?

There are not very many Ice resists in this tier, especially ones that actually fit on non-stall playstyles. That's the main reason you use /any/ Ice-type. Balance and bulky offense, most notably, have maybe 3 or 4 Ice resists that aren't easily exploited. Most of them lack recovery and are depended on to check a ton of other threats as well (e.g. Hariyama, Magmortar, Piloswine). Against teams that lack one of these 3-4 mons, which is really not very rare, Vanilluxe can easily go to town and nab kills without sacrificing itself. And against teams that do have a solid Ice resist, it still retains utility because not only can it go boom on its switchins and heavily disrupt defensive backbones, but can also pick off several big threats with STAB Ice Shard.

Over Jynx and Cryo, Vanilluxe has Ice Shard and isn't totally fucked by Pursuit. Over Lapras and Aurorus, it has Ice Shard and outspeeds all of Samurott, offensive Mantine, offensive Garbodor, Claydol, and Hasty Abomasnow. Over Abomasnow, it doesn't cripple teammates with hail and is still faster. These are all perfectly valid reasons to use it.
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
I really have no clue why you keep insisting the only thing Vanilluxe ever does is explode. If luring stuff was its "only" purpose, why would it bother running Ice Beam or Ice Shard? Clearly those moves are pointless because this Pokemon apparently has zero utility outside of dying in 1-2 turns. If you want to keep acting like its sole purpose is to bait Ice resists, I'm sure could dig through its movepool right now and theorymon up some set that does exactly that and only that. But that's not the case, so stop acting like it is.
You act like Vanilluxe has much other actual moves to work with, not to mention that the current moveset it runs now is technically designed to lure Ice resists, because you're not ditching Explosion on this otherwise. I mean it has Taunt like Glalie does, but it cannot make use of it anywhere near as effectively since it has no Super Fang. Heck, if Vanilluxe had Super Fang I'd be totally content with it, but the fact that it doesn't just puts it in this extremely gray area between Glalie and the other relevant Ice-types for me. You cited being able to outspeed Rott, SubTox Mantine, Claydol, etc. as reasons to run it over the slower Ice-types, but Glalie can pick most of them off just as well, and shares its other traits like not being Pursuit weak, not bringing along Hail (honestly this hasn't been a particularly cumbersome factor from what I've seen; if anything it's far more likely to help your team than hurt it), and Ice Shard, and trades away raw power for more versatility, notably the ability to break pretty much any bulky Ice resist in the tier.

Just so we're clear, you are arguing for Vanilluxe to stay C- and not for Glalie to stay UR, right?
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Vanilluxe is blacklisted once again due to the fact that the discussion revolving around it has been extremely circular & redundant and is getting both sides of the argument nowhere. Any further posts on it will be deleted. Please continue discussing the other nominations.
 
From B+ to A-: Agree|| Piloswine has been a consistent rocker throughout the meta. Well, Piloswine's good characteristics were already aforementioned, so I'll just add some things about it, such as its ability to take on Lead Aurorus, where most rockers struggle as Aurorus can break through them. Also, the tier lacks a number of ice resists, and Piloswine can fit in well in offensively oriented teams. In addition, Piloswine is one good volt stopper and doesnt take much from their coverage moves, and only fears wisp. However Piloswine doesnt have the best of bulks, and as mentioned earlier, Piloswine does not have a reliable recovery, making it get worn down easily. Even though that's the case, I still feel like Piloswine is deserving as an A- mon, with its unique positive traits and being an amazing mon overall.


From C- to C/C+: Disagree-Stay|| Not the biggest fan of this mon, but Solrock sports a decently spread stat, making it a decent rocker in the tier. What sets it apart from most of the rockers in NU is its matchup against them, as Solrock can cripple them with wisp, and it has levitate which helps it resist their STABs, and has a better form of recovery with Morning Sun. Despite all of these appealing niches, you still need to think twice from choosing it as your rocker. Most rockers have more bulk than Solrock, and can resist hits better, and in addition, even though Solrock has recovery, its still prone to 2HKOs with its aforementioned average bulk. To sum it up, theres still a number of reasons to use Solrock, with its niches that makes it a rise of choice for your team's rocker

From C+ to C/C-: Agree- Drop to C|| First reason is that I dont encounter much bouffalant in any NU matches, and these could be the cause of it. Bouffalant faces a WHOLE LOT of competition with the normal types of NU, with the choice of speed,coverage, and raw power. What's nice about Bouffalant is that it has Swords Dance and paired with good bulk, which can definitely wallbreak its way through teams, but still struggles to hit most ghost types of NU(With the exception of Pursuit ofc, but it's eh), which again, other normal types has ways to deal with. With that, Bouffalant isnt the worst of choices, it's just that it is somehow outclassed.

From C to C+/B-: Undecided|| I havent really experienced playing with/against this mon (with its right sets). But what i had observed on it, it's a pretty good check to fire/fighting/grass types, due to its good bulk, and forms of recovery with Roost and Natural Cure (and even heal bell, which also makes it a team cleric). What drags it down was already mentioned, which is its Rocks weakness, and its overall passiveness, but overall a good mon after all.
 
Last edited:
Lastly, the nomination for bumping up Hitmonchan to A+ has been brought up a few times and has been essentially shut down in the voting all of the times, so I'd rather that not be discussed anymore unless we get any more significant metagame changes that would justify it raising.
Can I please at least know why? I haven't heard a single counterargument. Therefore I think it's silly that someone would make a nomination and then get nothing but "nope the end" in return. And how am I supposed to know if "significant metagame changes" would change its viability if I don't know why it's not A+ in the first place?
 
Last edited:
I honestly feel like Chatot should go from C+ rank to B- rank. Its a fun mon to use and a threat to vs. I understand that chatot's speed isn't as nearly as good as Swellow's and I understand that is important benchmark to hit over 105 base speed but, it's power makes up for it, as well as, chatter. The only pokemon specs chatot doesn't straight up 2HKO (including rocks) is Cradily; I ran a one v all calc for this.
Cradily (NU Specially Defensive)Boomburst24.7 - 28.9%possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
This just goes to show how great a wallbreaker Chatot is. So why is such a great wallbreaker with decent speed and u-turn in the C ranks? Should be in the B ranks. I do understand that Swellow being able to hit ghosts with boomburst is HUGE but, at least chatot has 100% acc, full confuse, 65 base power chatter. If you do run chatter though, it has a tougher time with rock types without HP grass.
 

Machoke C- --> C+
So after seeing some hype around this mon I decided to give it a go and I was extremely impressed. Having played PU back before the ban I was generally aware of what I was getting myself into with it but it preformed so much better then I thought it would. Strong 100% confusion backed with great bulk and eviolite is no joke, so many teams just often don't have answers to something like that. Even Garbodor, one of the best answers in the tier, can have issues with it as dpunch 3hkos offensive variants and makes it play around with confusion. It doesn't even mind ghost types because its bulk is large enough that it can chew any of the hits they throw out, and its damage even when burned is enough to seriously wound any offensive ghost type in the tier unless they're colbur. Super strong mon and its really earned its place in our meta.



Miltank B+ --> A-

Yeah more miltank noms from me. I literally can't get enough of this mon right now, the bulk and utility it brings both in game and in team builder is just amazing. With it catching on and hitting the meta I've had more of a chance to play with it and against it and I consider it a top tier wall in NU right now. Miltank offers all the same things you'd expect from a normal SR setter like checking normal types while giving you things you don't normally have off the role such as filling the spot of an ice/ grass resist depending on which ability you take which makes it extremely flexible and unpredictable. The combination of utility, healing, and bulk makes miltank a top contender.



Here are 2 replays I got off the official tour today showing off both mons
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-450948841 Fun game vs gyro that showed off Machoke and Thick Fat Miltank
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-450963542 More Miltank showing off the Sap Sipper set
 
Last edited:

erisia

Innovative new design!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Hi all, just letting you know that I'll be taking over the NU Viability Rankings thread from now on. For now, feel free to ask me any questions relating to the VRs and I'll try to answer them.

Regarding Hitmonchan being denied a rise to A+, we discussed this repeatedly internally and despite Hitmonchan being one of the best hazard control Pokemon in the tier, it's overall too easily checked for us to feel it should rise to A+. Stuff like Weezing, Mesprit, and Garbodor can switch in with very few issues, with the latter being a great response because it can potentially block LO Rapid Spin by KOing with recoil damage from 26.6% health or less. While Earthquake Hitmonchan is a good lure for Garbodor, it does nothing vs the other checks and forces Hitmonchan to give up Ice Punch (necessary for Rotom/Mismagius/Haunter) or Mach Punch (very useful in general) for it.
 
Last edited:

erisia

Innovative new design!
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Update:

Piloswine: B+ > A-
Bouffalant: C+ > C
Altaria: C > C+
Solrock: C- > C

We also changed D rank so it now includes unranked BL4 mons (welcome back Linoone!).

Discussion Points: These didn't get a lot of discussion so we'd like more thoughts on these.

Steelix: A > A-
Miltank: B+ > A-
Chatot: C+ > B-
Machoke: C- > C/C+

Also here's some other points the council wanted some discussion on.

Manectric: B- > C+
Cryogonal: C- > C

Oh and I updated the sprites so they all have the correct links now. :D
 
Last edited:
i dont think theres really a good reason to use manec. it just doesnt bring anything to the table that evire / rotom lacks... it doesnt really get any relevant kos compared to electivire and the speed only really matters vs zard but with the sd wisp set being so popular the other elecs dont really care about it anyway. youre still outsped by archeops pyroar tauros swellow etc and even if the power boost is nice, compared to motor drive its much less valuable since that way if u get a speed boost u can check those mons anyway...not being able to get past lanturn is huge as well. i mean now that im thinking about it raichu also has lightning rod and has a higher speed tier which at least lets you tie with bull and dinobird and outspeed pyroar and liepard so idk lol, i honestly think c rank is good for manec

dont have a strong opinion on the others. altaria checking troubling mons for stall like sd rott / zard etc with haze is really nice though
 
B- > C+: Agree

Life Bouff said there's really no reason to use this mon. The only thing it has over something like Raichu is Overheat, which mainly nails 2 Pokemon which are falling down in this meta; Steelix and Vileplume. For a fast electric you could use Raichu, which offers the same utility in Lightning Rod that Manectric has, while also having 5 more base speed and a couple of neat moves like Encore and Nasty Plot. There's also Electrode, which has significantly more speed than both of the aforementioned Pokemon, which has a very underrated ability in Soundproof, allowing it to check Specs Swellow and a couple of other Pokemon that use sound-based moves as their stabs (namely Refridgerate Aurorus and Pyroar). It also obviously faces competition from the more standard electrics in the tier, but that's already been covered so I don't want to go over that much. Anyways Manectric definitely deserves a drop to C+ and tbh I'd prefer it to drop even lower to C.

Speaking of Electrode...

C- > C+

I honestly have no idea why Electrode is sitting down at the bottom of the ranks with a bunch of very lackluster mons. I think Electrode is very underrated these days since finding good checks to Specs Swellow is pretty hard to fit on more offensive builds. Having an immunity to one of the most spammable moves in the tier is honestly amazing, and it's not like Electrode is bad by any means aside from just blocking Boomburst and various other sound based moves. Due to its high speed, it can afford to run Modest without much cost since the only non-boosted Pokemon in the tier that outspeeds it is Swellow, allowing it to outrun the fastest threats in the tier like Floatzel, Tauros, and Archeops, while being able to provide momentum with Volt Switch.
 
Last edited:
Speaking of Electrode...

C- > C+

I honestly have no idea why Electrode is sitting down at the bottom of the ranks with a bunch of very lackluster mons. I think Electrode is very underrated these days since finding good checks to Specs Swellow is pretty hard to fit on more offensive builds. Having an immunity to one of the most spammable moves in the tier is honestly amazing, and it's not like Electrode is bad by any means aside from just blocking Boomburst and various other sound based moves. Due to its high speed, it can afford to run Modest without much cost since the only non-boosted Pokemon in the tier that outspeeds it is Swellow, allowing it to outrun the fastest threats in the tier like Floatzel, Tauros, and Archeops, while being able to provide momentum with Volt Switch.
I can understand why, mainly because I asked for it go up higher a couple months back (maybe even longer to be honest haha). I love electrode so I can understand its strengths and weaknesses from using it a lot. Soundproof, high speed, going modest, and volt switch is sweet, this is true, BUT it still lacks power even behind a modest boost (at modest its special attack is one point than a neutral base 92 Special Attack); Electrode's movepool isn't colorful either, like electivire's and manectric's movepool. With a neutral base 92 Special Attack (+1 more point) power and having bug, electric, HP grass coverage, you're not exactly doing too much damage to lot of pokes. With typical electric checks everywhere, its tough for electrode to stand out and apply pressure on a team offensively. It can annoy its checks with taunt, like making sure steelix cant sr for free and lanturn not being able to heal bell for free either. It also has HP grass for quag and gastro.
The fact that Electrode can handle top speed threats moderately well is a good enough reason for a rise to C or C+ and at the same time, struggling with walls and relying on wall breakers a lot is also a good reason to keep it at C-. In my opinion though, C rank seems perfect.
 


Lapras from C+ ---> B-

I feel like Lapras deserves to be moved a rank above. It has so many things going for it, Water absorb, Freeze-dry, 130/80/95 defenses which makes it nice and bulky even without investment. The speed tier isn't too bad either, modest nature hitting 219 speed and timid a solid 240, outspeeding threats like Adamant Samurott. But with modest, you get a lot more power to hit the likes of Lanturn, Malamar, and Hariyama, weakening them significantly.

Well, speaking of Malamar, Lapras outspeeds the bulky RestTalk and has a roll at OHKOing it with specs with Signal Beam. Hariyama takes around 35% from a Life Orb Hydro Pump, more with Specs. Lanturn takes 40-60% from Freeze-dry depending on it's set.

With Water Absorb and the insane 130 HP, Lapras is also quite effective at pivoting into annoying bulky waters like Gastrodon and Mantine, but if you're really afraid of them toxicing you, you could even run Heal Bell to get that problem out of the way. That depends on your team obviously.

Probably the biggest drawback is the weakness to rocks, heavily making it more vulnerable to strong, neutral hitting attacks, and making it more of a check than a counter to most mons. But once you get Lapras in, there isn't much that can take on the wide array of its moves.

Long story short, maybe a bit rambly, Lapras can act as a very good balance breaker. If the opposition lacks a solid answer to special attackers like a Maudino, it basically creates holes to the other team and makes it easier for the rest of the team to clean up.

P.S. I like Healing Wish support for Lapras, you basically get two Lapras to use, in the early to mid game, and when it's weakened, Healing Wish gets it back to its scary, bulky form...!

P.S.S. Mainly talked about Specs/LO Lapras.
 
Last edited:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top