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Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Ares
- Start date
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HA Johto Starters will be available via Pokemon Bank starting on the 27th. Feraligatr sure as heck won't be staying NU for much longer. It's already A+ Rank and it doesn't have even have Sheer Force yet. I would suggest having it moved up to S Rank when it comes out but we all know it won't stay NU for long (assuming it doesn't just get quick banned).
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I think we should wait until it comes out to be ranked. It got a bit worse b/c of recent drops so its rank would in actuality be a bit lower than its current A+ standing, but it hasn't even been a week since the drops so the tier is not fully adapted for us to be able to rank those new drops, let alone something that isn't even released.
You mean Heliolisk, not Helioptile. Heliolisk can switch in on a well-predicted Waterfall and KO back with Thunderbolt, though its low Defense means even Ice Punch or Crunch may OHKO. Risky, but feasible.
Shifting the topic for a bit.
As someone who enjoys weather teams I am finding that rain has lost a lot of viability with the tier shifts. While we may have gotten dry skin Heliolisk we lost one of our if not our strongest swift swim sweeper in Kabutops. Water immunities are running rampant in the tier mostly from Heliolisk and Mantine but also Seismitoad, Cacturne, and Jynx which make it much harder to perform well when you have to predict and play around water absorb and dry skin constantly. One of the nice things with rain teams prior to the tier shifts was how well it took on Mega Lix who was without a doubt one of the strongest pokemon in the tier hands down but now Mega Lix isn't being used as much as Quagsire and Heliolisk give it a lot of trouble.
Bulkier pokemon like Mega Audino, Uxie, Gourgeist, and xatu are becoming more commonly used to combat new threats primarily Virizion and Heliolisk which rain teams having trouble breaking past (seriously mega audino can go screw itself). Even virizion gives rain a lot of trouble for its water resist and massive special bulk. While Heliolisk is phenomenal the slight dry skin turn for turn recovery it has doesn't nearly fill in the hole that Kabutops left with its sweeping and rapid spin capabilities.
As someone who enjoys weather teams I am finding that rain has lost a lot of viability with the tier shifts. While we may have gotten dry skin Heliolisk we lost one of our if not our strongest swift swim sweeper in Kabutops. Water immunities are running rampant in the tier mostly from Heliolisk and Mantine but also Seismitoad, Cacturne, and Jynx which make it much harder to perform well when you have to predict and play around water absorb and dry skin constantly. One of the nice things with rain teams prior to the tier shifts was how well it took on Mega Lix who was without a doubt one of the strongest pokemon in the tier hands down but now Mega Lix isn't being used as much as Quagsire and Heliolisk give it a lot of trouble.
Bulkier pokemon like Mega Audino, Uxie, Gourgeist, and xatu are becoming more commonly used to combat new threats primarily Virizion and Heliolisk which rain teams having trouble breaking past (seriously mega audino can go screw itself). Even virizion gives rain a lot of trouble for its water resist and massive special bulk. While Heliolisk is phenomenal the slight dry skin turn for turn recovery it has doesn't nearly fill in the hole that Kabutops left with its sweeping and rapid spin capabilities.
It's probably still too early to talk about any of the drops but can normal Steelix and Camerupt be removed from the rankings (or at least be moved to like D)? There's just zero reason to use either of them in this meta at all. They're completely eclipsed by their Megas in their performance, and since none of them ever fit on the same teams anyway, the "wasting a Mega slot" argument doesn't mean anything. Their current rankings are way, way too high right now though lol (especially Steelix)
On a similar note, Audino is probably the only mon that has a true niche outside of its Mega, but it should be way lower too. It just can't keep up with all the current threats: gives a free switch-in to Steelix, gets 2HKOed by Rupt, is general setup fodder, etc.
On a similar note, Audino is probably the only mon that has a true niche outside of its Mega, but it should be way lower too. It just can't keep up with all the current threats: gives a free switch-in to Steelix, gets 2HKOed by Rupt, is general setup fodder, etc.
cryogonal should drop; while it's a good offensive spinner, it just loses to too much now and doesn't deserve to be that high :(
liepard should drop too: its so high when m-lix, virizion, gurdurr, hariyama (ok, that thing was always common haha), and others are really common now.. sneasel is also just better on the physical side :(. I guess there's NP pard and the utility of encore/twave but honestly thats not enough. ok just realised that i forgot sneasel also lose to those (except virizion) and i argued for it to rise.. liepard has seed bomb too so it can beat quag :O ok leave it there.
make eggy a- imo: its one of the best switch in to virizion and it can check heliolisk/beat quag and claydol
sneasel is REALLY good now, make that thing A+ or A imo. i know m-lix/gurdurr exist but thats what teammates are for + the drops gave us answers to lix that pair well with sneasel :)
i would make pyroar drop too tbh don't have much experience with it since the drops so maybe it deserve to stay where it is, but honestly if i want a fire-type i would use typh and if i wanted a good offensive check to ghost-types with good coverage i would use heliolisk lol
make eggy a- imo: its one of the best switch in to virizion and it can check heliolisk/beat quag and claydol
sneasel is REALLY good now, make that thing A+ or A imo. i know m-lix/gurdurr exist but thats what teammates are for + the drops gave us answers to lix that pair well with sneasel :)
i would make pyroar drop too tbh don't have much experience with it since the drops so maybe it deserve to stay where it is, but honestly if i want a fire-type i would use typh and if i wanted a good offensive check to ghost-types with good coverage i would use heliolisk lol
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Although Samurott is an otter :3 doesn't quag run Unaware (so he doesnt care about defense drop) or water absorb, i guess..?SD Samurott can also beat Quagsire with Razor Shell's Defense drops and has better and more powerful neutral coverage with Megahorn.
And it looks cooler.
It's also an otter.
0 SpA Life Orb Samurott Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 452-536 (114.7 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Life Orb Samurott Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Quagsire: 328-390 (83.2 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
just a couple quick thoughts
Raichu to D+
Heliolisk exists and is basically a better Raichu. I suppose it has some niches like nasty plot but really how often are you ever going to pick Raichu when Heliolisk has more power, has STAB hyper voice, and a water immunity?
Rotom to B+
Ever since the beginning of ORAS Rotom's just been getting continually worse. In addition to previous checks, Mega Steelix and Mega Camerupt did this thing absolutely no favours, giving two electric immunites with decent special bulk and immunity to trick(and wisp in M-camel's case). Heck, even Mega Audino doesn't really fear Rotom at all. And now beyond that, Quagsire dropped, giving another bulky answer with reliable recovery, Heliolisk, which has immunity to ghost and resistance to electric, though it won't like even more residual from wisp, and Virizion dropped, which only fears trick if it's lum/cm(and wisp if it's LO).
Klinklang to B-
How has this thing actually managed to stay B+ for this long? It's shut down by M-lix completely, and now Quagsire too, and there's a lot of viable checks/counters aside from that too such as M-camel, Lanturn, Poliwrath, Qwilfish, Weezing, Garbodor, Pelipper, and Sandslash. Wild Charge does beat some of these, but non-wild charge varients will lose to those mons.
Gourgeist-XL to B
This Gourgeist form has seen a huge buff in viability since it's able to check the two most threatening new drops, Heliolisk and Virizion. Considering the worst the former can do out of moves it actually runs, (aside from solar power sun hp fire) is mere hp flying, and the worst the latter can do is stone edge or hidden power ice for SD/CM respectively, it doesn't take too much from either, while whittling them down with burns, attacks, and synthesis. It's also able to check/counter a variety of other mons such as fighting types, quagsire, and feraligatr.
Raichu to D+
Heliolisk exists and is basically a better Raichu. I suppose it has some niches like nasty plot but really how often are you ever going to pick Raichu when Heliolisk has more power, has STAB hyper voice, and a water immunity?
Rotom to B+
Ever since the beginning of ORAS Rotom's just been getting continually worse. In addition to previous checks, Mega Steelix and Mega Camerupt did this thing absolutely no favours, giving two electric immunites with decent special bulk and immunity to trick(and wisp in M-camel's case). Heck, even Mega Audino doesn't really fear Rotom at all. And now beyond that, Quagsire dropped, giving another bulky answer with reliable recovery, Heliolisk, which has immunity to ghost and resistance to electric, though it won't like even more residual from wisp, and Virizion dropped, which only fears trick if it's lum/cm(and wisp if it's LO).
Klinklang to B-
How has this thing actually managed to stay B+ for this long? It's shut down by M-lix completely, and now Quagsire too, and there's a lot of viable checks/counters aside from that too such as M-camel, Lanturn, Poliwrath, Qwilfish, Weezing, Garbodor, Pelipper, and Sandslash. Wild Charge does beat some of these, but non-wild charge varients will lose to those mons.
Gourgeist-XL to B
This Gourgeist form has seen a huge buff in viability since it's able to check the two most threatening new drops, Heliolisk and Virizion. Considering the worst the former can do out of moves it actually runs, (aside from solar power sun hp fire) is mere hp flying, and the worst the latter can do is stone edge or hidden power ice for SD/CM respectively, it doesn't take too much from either, while whittling them down with burns, attacks, and synthesis. It's also able to check/counter a variety of other mons such as fighting types, quagsire, and feraligatr.
Time for another update :)
So as to not have the new drops nommed to places higher or lower than they actually should be, I decided to do a preliminary ranking for them. This is subject to change and the new drops can move up or down, this was just the general consensus after discussing it on irc and in the PS room.
I fully suspect Heliolisk to S noms, but I wanted discussion on it before placing anything in a higher or lower rank.
Code:
Ferroseed A- ==> B+
Samurott A- ==> A
Jynx A- ==> A
Klinklang B+ ==> B
Exeggutor B+ ==> A-
Prinplup C+ ==> B+
Feraligatr A+ ==> A-
Torterra B- ==> B
Gurdurr A ==> A-
Pyroar A ==> B+
Cacturne A- ==> B+
Gorebyss A- ==> B+
Huntail A- ==> B+
Crustle B ==> B+
Steelix (regular) B ==> C
Camerupt (regular) C- ==> Unlisted
Audino B ==> C+
Code:
Preliminary Rankings:
Heliolisk unranked ==> A+
Virizion unranked ==> A+
Mawile unranked ==> B
Claydol unranked ==> B
Quagsire unranked ==> B
I agree with everything, but I think rotom-n should be even lower. Given all the reasons above alone, I think B or even B- is good for it. Rotom N has been shit since oras came out, and it actually even got worse. Very few reasons to justify using this thing on your team, it has way less niches now especially with the new drops. Matter fact the only thing it really has going for it is trick and i guess hitting bulky psychics for hardish damage.
Quagsire should be A- in my opinion: it makes Stall good. Stall has been having tons of issues with setup sweepers such as CM Psychics and other bulky setup sweeper and we now have a Pokemon to counter all of them (unless they have Grass-type coverage, which makes them lose to more stuff!). Quagsire has a lot of good options in its movepool to allow it to be really annoying to the opponent :)
I would like to nominate Heliolisk to S: amazing check to sd gatr on offense (Heliolisk and Virizion are the reason Feraligatr needs to run DD now to be good, and DD can't check Fire-types and revenge stuff with priority so thats good for offense lol), amazing neutral coverage with its STABs and has access to good coverage that can beat most of the Pokemon that resists the STABs (ex: Surf for Steelix, Rhydon and Camerupt, Grass Knot for Seismitoad and Rhydon, Focus Blast for Cradily, etc.), amazing offensive check to scarf rotom.. omg it even checks Rain Dance Ludicolo since it can't rly do much to it unless it has Focus Blast. Heliolisk can even work on Sun teams thanks to Solar Power and, obviously, Rain teams with Dry Skin. Fantastic Pokemon.
It is also a lizard.
sg edit: how do i like my own post omg this lizard is CUTE
I would like to nominate Heliolisk to S: amazing check to sd gatr on offense (Heliolisk and Virizion are the reason Feraligatr needs to run DD now to be good, and DD can't check Fire-types and revenge stuff with priority so thats good for offense lol), amazing neutral coverage with its STABs and has access to good coverage that can beat most of the Pokemon that resists the STABs (ex: Surf for Steelix, Rhydon and Camerupt, Grass Knot for Seismitoad and Rhydon, Focus Blast for Cradily, etc.), amazing offensive check to scarf rotom.. omg it even checks Rain Dance Ludicolo since it can't rly do much to it unless it has Focus Blast. Heliolisk can even work on Sun teams thanks to Solar Power and, obviously, Rain teams with Dry Skin. Fantastic Pokemon.
It is also a lizard.
sg edit: how do i like my own post omg this lizard is CUTE
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Gonna agree with both nominations made my by soulgazer, gonna also add that quag can also be used on balance and a rare malamar counter which makes it very useful!
Although prin was just recently buffed to B+, i think that mono-water coverage right now is pretty risky business as you're giving helio a free switch every time and it also makes it setup fodder for virizion. I think with how common both of these mons are right now, prin's usage is gonna drop as it's not as "free scald, who wants a burn" anymore, where as i thought prin deserved B+ before the drops, however I think it's a bit high and would be more suited in B, that's just my opinion however.
Also, I think mawile could fit in B+, it's a very niche pokemon that has some rather incredible power with life orb and sheer force making it a force to be messed with. It's a great check to psychic types, lure for mega-steelix (which it can beat with non invested fire blast), can be a check for the likes of scyther and other flying types and if you let your pokemon get weakened too much, can sweep with sd and sucker. I feel it could definitely be moved up a notch to B+, but again these are just my thoughts, feel free to leave your own.
Although prin was just recently buffed to B+, i think that mono-water coverage right now is pretty risky business as you're giving helio a free switch every time and it also makes it setup fodder for virizion. I think with how common both of these mons are right now, prin's usage is gonna drop as it's not as "free scald, who wants a burn" anymore, where as i thought prin deserved B+ before the drops, however I think it's a bit high and would be more suited in B, that's just my opinion however.
Also, I think mawile could fit in B+, it's a very niche pokemon that has some rather incredible power with life orb and sheer force making it a force to be messed with. It's a great check to psychic types, lure for mega-steelix (which it can beat with non invested fire blast), can be a check for the likes of scyther and other flying types and if you let your pokemon get weakened too much, can sweep with sd and sucker. I feel it could definitely be moved up a notch to B+, but again these are just my thoughts, feel free to leave your own.
What else would Mawile be running on the Sheer Force set? You've got me interested since
0 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Steelix: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Play rough, iron head, stealth rock, sucker punch, fire blast, swords dance, all viable. It can creep as well for base 50s and has unique typing :]
Completely agree with everything Soulgazer & Teddeh said above. Heliolisk without a doubt deserves the S rank it hits extremely hard with an incredible speed stat for this tier. It has coverage like you wouldn't believe and checks sooo many things in the tier most obviously SD Gator. It just fits on many teams so easily, including all weather teams besides hail lol.
Its standard dry skin set pressures many defoggers in the tier like Prinplup and Mantine and volt switch just gives the user so much momentum. Often you lose very little even if you predict wrong with volt switch due to its speed and due to grass knot + surf hitting practically anything that is willing to switch into a volt switch for major damage. In many ways Heliolisk reminds me of Greninja, it has a ridiculously diverse move pool and can often get past many of its checks with other coverage moves like Focus Blast, Dark Pulse, and Hidden Power provided they have taken some damage beforehand. The 1 speed point it has over Virizion allows it to pick it off once weakened by another pokemon as well with either Hyper voice or Hidden power Flying. I can't think of any pokemon in NU more deserving of the S rank than Heliolisk to be honest it is just so versatile and can be slapped on any team so easily and perform so well.
Often when making a team Heliolisk is the mon I think of the most about when making it now. Honestly if you look at the current S rank you can see how much Heliolisk has shaped the new metagame regarding itself. Both Mega Rupt and Mega Lix are becoming less seen due to Heliolisk's influence. Camerupt is straight Ohko'd and Max Specially defensive Mega Lix is 2hko'd by surf, many typlosions are ditching Specs in place of scarf so they aren't easily outsped and potentially Ohko'd by surf as well.
I also agree with what was said above regarding Quag, Mawile, and Prinplup but mainly wanted to get my thoughts about the threat that is Heliolisk.
After playing the meta for a bit I think that a relevant nom would be Archeops --> S. With the new drops, Archeops has become the go-to check to helio, virizion and typhlosion. Archeops also provides a ton of utility on offensive teams as DefogChops is pretty much the only offensive defogger in the tier as well as being the most reliable. It's extremely versatile as it can run bulky spreads, taunt + roost as a stallbreaker, and even run moves like heat wave or aqua tail to get past its more common counters like Mega Steelix or Rhydon. Archeops has really benefitted from the shifts and is one of the meta-defining mons rn, definitely worthy of S-Rank imo.
CanadianWifier
Run Away With Me
A- unless someone is opposed for some reason seems fair.
lol you actually promoted it and didn't mention it? or I'm just blind.
Anyway Helio --> S+ if possible, it's literally a no-brainier to promote to S.
Agreeing with Evan's nom of Archeops to S, I don't think adding a bulkycheops to any ORAS would make it worse and it checks top mons.
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