I'd honestly agree with Lickilicky being C+ but mainly for a reason you didn't actually list and that being its access to dragon tail. Which not only effectively stops set up sweepers but works exceptionally well on spike stacking teams which are rather common in NU. The most common spiker in the tier Garbodor pairs up exceptionally well with Lickilicky as they cover most of each others primary weaknesses. I would say that vastly superior coverage, larger stats in every single stat bar speed, and being less of a sitting duck than non-mega audino puts it on the same level of Audino even with the phenomenal ability in regenerator.
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Only a brief post cause I'm on my lunch break.
Regenerator is actually huge in comparing the two because it means that Audino doesn't need its own wishes and can more easily pass them off. Lickylicky really needs its own wishes and gives more free switches to the opponents because of that.
Audino also has Encore to prevent setup which is a cool way to stop setup sweepers from beating you.
Regenerator is actually huge in comparing the two because it means that Audino doesn't need its own wishes and can more easily pass them off. Lickylicky really needs its own wishes and gives more free switches to the opponents because of that.
Audino also has Encore to prevent setup which is a cool way to stop setup sweepers from beating you.
I want to add some thoughts on this since it's pretty unique;
Lickilicky actually has potential offensively and most people have overlooked it completely. In reality, if you find and offensive set, you're most of the time wondering what coverage of moves it has and what set it could possibly be since its movepool is so diverse and its potential in the ways of boosting is rather unique. I'll post more after I've tested out a few of the offensive sets but I shouldn't think this should be overlooked in which it should apply to its ranking rather than solidly being a wish-passer in which it really is outclassed by audino.
The problem with offensive Lickilicky is that the only things that set it apart from Bouffalant are Power Whip and Explosion, while Bouffalant has Head Charge, Megahorn, and three great abilities. Offensive Lickilicky (Choice Band and Swords Dance) isn't really unviable, but it's worse than Bouffalant in most ways. Defensively, Lickilicky is more of a special wall than it is a supporting pivot because it relies so much on its own Wishes to heal, while Audino can heal with Regenerator and pass its Wish to something else. A bulky supporting pivot is just more valuable in a metagame with tons of scary shit that you don't want to come in for free.
I don't really like this Pokemon. It can be annoying with its sleeping and Quiver Dancing, but other than that, I don't find it hard to wall. It is heavily reliant on Hidden Power to get through Steel and Fire types, which leaves it walled by at least one of those types. Having Petal Dance as its main STAB also hurts it, as it can't switch out against an incoming Typhlosion, leaving it in only to be killed. I never understood why it was so high, and why people would even nom it for S rank when it is checked by a lot of things in the tier, is easy to revenge, and to be honest, its kinda ugly.
I'm not sure if you overlooked this but, it also gets giga drain for a stab move. And although lilligants viability is based on sleep powder (which means pretty much guaranteed settup) in combination with quiver dance (one of the best settup moves in the game) it can run a nasty scarf set with healing wish, which can be compared to the likes of mesprit in s rank at the moment.to A
I don't really like this Pokemon. It can be annoying with its sleeping and Quiver Dancing, but other than that, I don't find it hard to wall. It is heavily reliant on Hidden Power to get through Steel and Fire types, which leaves it walled by at least one of those types. Having Petal Dance as its main STAB also hurts it, as it can't switch out against an incoming Typhlosion, leaving it in only to be killed. I never understood why it was so high, and why people would even nom it for S rank when it is checked by a lot of things in the tier, is easy to revenge, and to be honest, its kinda ugly.
Certainly Lilligant, not supported or played well at all will not be an offensive presence to be played against. But certainly I see that a well played lilligant, is one of the meta defining threats.
I don't support the drop due to the viability of its 2 sets, and the fact a well played lilligant is amazingly difficult to wall, contrary to what you say.
I didn't overlook it, I just thought Petal Dance was its main STAB of choice, thanks to Own Tempo. But now that I look at the Strategy Dex, Giga Drain is your main choice of STAB. Apologizes for that.
I see that Quiver Dance with Sleep Powder is a deadly combo, and thats why I am not nomming it any lower, but Sleep Powder can be unreliable at times, and even at +1, Lilligant's bulk isn't anything to really get scared at. And while a scarf set with Healing Wish is pretty neat, it still has no coverage outside of Hidden Power, leaving it very predictable.
Alright, I probably shouldn't of said wall, but it is easy to check. I mean, every decently made team has something for Lilligant, like Xatu, Typhlosion, Mega Camerupt, Mawile, Garbodor, Scyther, Jynx, Klinklang, Magmortar. Every team should have at least one of those Pokemon, and they make Lilligant's job more difficult.
I understand Lilligant is a great late-game sweeper, but I feel its typing, low BP moves, and predictability make it move down to A rank.
plus seriously, its gross
I see that Quiver Dance with Sleep Powder is a deadly combo, and thats why I am not nomming it any lower, but Sleep Powder can be unreliable at times, and even at +1, Lilligant's bulk isn't anything to really get scared at. And while a scarf set with Healing Wish is pretty neat, it still has no coverage outside of Hidden Power, leaving it very predictable.
Alright, I probably shouldn't of said wall, but it is easy to check. I mean, every decently made team has something for Lilligant, like Xatu, Typhlosion, Mega Camerupt, Mawile, Garbodor, Scyther, Jynx, Klinklang, Magmortar. Every team should have at least one of those Pokemon, and they make Lilligant's job more difficult.
I understand Lilligant is a great late-game sweeper, but I feel its typing, low BP moves, and predictability make it move down to A rank.
I also disagree with this nom, Lilligant is really good at finding setup opportunities for itself. As long as it takes out the mons that wall it, it doesn't have much trouble setting up unlike most other setup sweepers as it can just come in on anything slower and put it to sleep for a quiver. Sleep Powder also means that at +1 Speed, things that it can't OHKO are not /too/ huge of a deal as it can just put stuff like Typhlosion or a weakened Garbodor to sleep, then proceed to beat it with a boosted Giga Drain. Giga Drain also means that Lilligant can keep itself relatively healthy, so it's not like life orb recoil wears it down.to A
I don't really like this Pokemon. It can be annoying with its sleeping and Quiver Dancing, but other than that, I don't find it hard to wall. It is heavily reliant on Hidden Power to get through Steel and Fire types, which leaves it walled by at least one of those types. Having Petal Dance as its main STAB also hurts it, as it can't switch out against an incoming Typhlosion, leaving it in only to be killed. I never understood why it was so high, and why people would even nom it for S rank when it is checked by a lot of things in the tier, is easy to revenge, and to be honest, its kinda ugly.
The only Fire-type I've found to be an issue was bulky AV Magmortar but even it can be worn down with hazard support and some good team support that helps to wear it down (fire-type teammates, pursuit support, stuff like that). The other Fire-types, (unless they're scarf which aren't too difficult to check with teammates), are easily worn down by SR, beaten by Sleep Powder and take a huge chunk from +1 Giga Drain meaning they're not that hard to beat. This means you can just run HP Fire / Ice on Lilligant to beat the bulky Grasses after they're weakened (Plume takes ~60% from a +1 HP iirc) while beating Steels and/or Xatu.
Also, Lilligant is cute what are you talking about :(
I'm sure any sweeper can be threatening after its wall are gone, but it isn't as easy as just saying that.
Assuming you have put a Pokemon to sleep to find an chance to set-up, and the opponent switches out into their Typhlosion, you can't put that to sleep too because of Sleep Clause, so you are either forced out, or OHKOed by the incoming Fire Blast or Eruption. And I will agree that Giga Drain is nice for keeping it healthy, and is surprisingly strong at +1.
It's not just Fire types that can threaten Lilligant, most scarfers have a way of forcing it out. Mespirit can 2HKO with Zen Headbutt or U-Turn out, Jynx has Ice Beam and Lovely Kiss(granted its a speed tie iirc), Haunter has Sludge Wave, Tauros can OHKO with Double Edge after 1 round of LO and rocks. And while Hidden Power is nice for taking out Grass types, it leaves Lilligant very predictable.
Plus another reason I made this nom is because I don't really see being on Samurott's or Sneasel's level of viability. I don't doubt its a viable Pokemon and one to look out for when teambuilding, I just don't see it as A+, which is the border between A and S.
And its crown is dumb.
Assuming you have put a Pokemon to sleep to find an chance to set-up, and the opponent switches out into their Typhlosion, you can't put that to sleep too because of Sleep Clause, so you are either forced out, or OHKOed by the incoming Fire Blast or Eruption. And I will agree that Giga Drain is nice for keeping it healthy, and is surprisingly strong at +1.
It's not just Fire types that can threaten Lilligant, most scarfers have a way of forcing it out. Mespirit can 2HKO with Zen Headbutt or U-Turn out, Jynx has Ice Beam and Lovely Kiss(granted its a speed tie iirc), Haunter has Sludge Wave, Tauros can OHKO with Double Edge after 1 round of LO and rocks. And while Hidden Power is nice for taking out Grass types, it leaves Lilligant very predictable.
Plus another reason I made this nom is because I don't really see being on Samurott's or Sneasel's level of viability. I don't doubt its a viable Pokemon and one to look out for when teambuilding, I just don't see it as A+, which is the border between A and S.
And its crown is dumb.
Quick Nomination
Simisear D -> Unranked
NU is filled with powerful fire type attackers and almost any competent team has a check or multiple checks to fire spam because of it. Between Typlosion, Mega Camerupt, Pyroar, Magmortar, Ninetales, and Flareon (In S - B ranks alone), this monkey doesn't really have any niche in this metagame. There has never been a situation or never will be where I want a strong fire type attacker and will want to choose Simisear over the other dozen fire types in the tier that are vastly more viable.
The only notable reason you would use Simisear is for a nasty plot fire type user but even then it is outclassed by Ninetales which does the same thing but also checks numerous strong fire types in the tier with flash fire. Both of Simisear's abilities are not that good and rely on it being low on health to activate which makes it even easier to revenge kill on top of being extremely frail already.
If you want a fire type with more power you choose specs Typlosion or Mega rupt, if you want a fire type nasty plot user go with Ninetales, want a speedy fire type go with Pyroar or choice scarf Typlosion. If you want a fire type that checks other fire types go with AV Magmortar, Flareon, and any other viable pokemon with flash fire. Simipour and Simisage have a notable niche for their high base speed plus good coverage and nasty plot but there is too much competition with other fire types in the tier for Simisear to be considered viable.
Honestly I was surprised with Montesgur's much needed update a few weeks back that Simisear managed to stay in D in the first place.
Monferno deserves to be ranked way more than Simisear does.
NU is filled with powerful fire type attackers and almost any competent team has a check or multiple checks to fire spam because of it. Between Typlosion, Mega Camerupt, Pyroar, Magmortar, Ninetales, and Flareon (In S - B ranks alone), this monkey doesn't really have any niche in this metagame. There has never been a situation or never will be where I want a strong fire type attacker and will want to choose Simisear over the other dozen fire types in the tier that are vastly more viable.
The only notable reason you would use Simisear is for a nasty plot fire type user but even then it is outclassed by Ninetales which does the same thing but also checks numerous strong fire types in the tier with flash fire. Both of Simisear's abilities are not that good and rely on it being low on health to activate which makes it even easier to revenge kill on top of being extremely frail already.
If you want a fire type with more power you choose specs Typlosion or Mega rupt, if you want a fire type nasty plot user go with Ninetales, want a speedy fire type go with Pyroar or choice scarf Typlosion. If you want a fire type that checks other fire types go with AV Magmortar, Flareon, and any other viable pokemon with flash fire. Simipour and Simisage have a notable niche for their high base speed plus good coverage and nasty plot but there is too much competition with other fire types in the tier for Simisear to be considered viable.
Honestly I was surprised with Montesgur's much needed update a few weeks back that Simisear managed to stay in D in the first place.
Monferno deserves to be ranked way more than Simisear does.
pretty sure what keeps simi ranked is its important speed tier, which is essectial compared to the other NP mon, it also has Focus blast to differentiate itself from ninetales.Quick Nomination
Simisear D -> Unranked
NU is filled with powerful fire type attackers and almost any competent team has a check or multiple checks to fire spam because of it. Between Typlosion, Mega Camerupt, Pyroar, Magmortar, Ninetales, and Flareon (In S - B ranks alone), this monkey doesn't really have any niche in this metagame. There has never been a situation or never will be where I want a strong fire type attacker and will want to choose Simisear over the other dozen fire types in the tier that are vastly more viable.
The only notable reason you would use Simisear is for a nasty plot fire type user but even then it is outclassed by Ninetales which does the same thing but also checks numerous strong fire types in the tier with flash fire. Both of Simisear's abilities are not that good and rely on it being low on health to activate which makes it even easier to revenge kill on top of being extremely frail already.
If you want a fire type with more power you choose specs Typlosion or Mega rupt, if you want a fire type nasty plot user go with Ninetales, want a speedy fire type go with Pyroar or choice scarf Typlosion. If you want a fire type that checks other fire types go with AV Magmortar, Flareon, and any other viable pokemon with flash fire. Simipour and Simisage have a notable niche for their high base speed plus good coverage and nasty plot but there is too much competition with other fire types in the tier for Simisear to be considered viable.
Honestly I was surprised with Montesgur's much needed update a few weeks back that Simisear managed to stay in D in the first place.
Monferno deserves to be ranked way more than Simisear does.
oh yea and there is SubSalac but idk how good that is in NU (really good in FU and ok in PU)
I just don't think focus blast and 1 speed point over Typlosion and Ninetales are enough for its ranking. All that 1 extra speed point done is really outspeed those two aforementioned mons and it has to rely on hitting them with focus blast for any significant damage. If I want a Fire type attacker that surpasses base one hundred Pyroar does the job better.
As for SubSalac I wouldn't really consider a rank worthy set. On Simipour it is nice because after the salac berry you outspeed even scarf Typlosion but on Simisear you really miss the coverage. Assuming you are running Nasty Plot - Sub - Fire Blast- Focus Blast you can't hit bulky waters all that well especially the common mantine.
Alright Froggyboy let's get this done. Lilligant has several things going for it that few other setup sweepers have. First off, it already has great offensive stats off the bat, with potent Special Attack and respectable Speed. Then it has one of the best boosting moves in the game in Quiver Dance, which not only bolsters its offensive potential but also softens incoming special blows. But most notably, Lilligant is a setup sweeper with great self-sustain in the form of STAB Giga Drain, which is crazy good for a 'bulky' setup sweeper and goes a long way in either preserving itself long enough to go for the sweep or to evade revenge kills. It also makes Lilligant one of the few setup sweepers to set up in the face of Scald users since it can usually keep itself healthy enough to stave off the burn. You'd be surprised at how well boosted LO Giga Drain lets Lilligant stand up to a good majority of the tier because of this.
Also lol Scarf Mesprit is not even a check to Lilligant, Jynx does not speedtie Lilligant but needs a Scarf to outspeed (and even then Scarf Jynx fails to OHKO +1 Lilli with Ice Beam), and Hidden Power is not solely for Grass-types if they aren't a huge issue (can be opted for HP Rock which smacks a lot of the checks u mentioned). And really, Lilligant has more problems with Poison-types than Grass-types if anything else.
The fact that it is a setup sweeper with access to a decent sleeping move means it can usually just immobilize most Pokemon that get in its way, rendering them easy prey for teammates or simply prevent them from disrupting Lilligant's immediate / later sweep. You say the +1 special bulk isn't really anything to get scared at, until you have a Lilligant set up right in front of your Ludicolo or Samurott or whatever. And while Lilligant's coverage is obviously its most notable issue, it really isn't a big deal since not only does Lilligant have its hands full in terms of moveslots as it is, but boosted Giga Drain carries Lilligant through many unresisted opponents as it is, so only having Hidden Power as its coverage move isn't really detrimental to Lilligant's success at all; it just wishes its coverage move had more power, and Hidden Power can shave off a good majority of those checks as is, meaning you only have to cover for the remaining stragglers.
It seems you are under the assumption that Liiligant needs to put something to sleep in order to set up, when that is not the case. Realistically you have Lilligant set up on a Water-type / Ground-type which the opponent will have, and gain back most, if not all of the health lost with one fell swoop, while making use of the special bulk increase to further lessen the damage. As for the Scarf checks, none of them want to switch into a Sleep Powder, so mindgames ensue as you try to predict whether Lilligant would Sleep Powder or Quiver Dance: switch your Scarfer into the Sleep Powder and that spells trouble, while staying in expecting to absorb the Sleep Powder only to be met with a Quiver Dance can be disastrous if it gets the chance to Quiver a second time. You see what I'm getting at here? Win the prediction and you can force Lilligant out, but losing the prediction war can very well cost you the game.
Also lol Scarf Mesprit is not even a check to Lilligant, Jynx does not speedtie Lilligant but needs a Scarf to outspeed (and even then Scarf Jynx fails to OHKO +1 Lilli with Ice Beam), and Hidden Power is not solely for Grass-types if they aren't a huge issue (can be opted for HP Rock which smacks a lot of the checks u mentioned). And really, Lilligant has more problems with Poison-types than Grass-types if anything else.
Between its already great offensive stats, terrific boosting move, the fast sleep, and insane sustain for a setup sweeper, Lilligant is definitely up there as one of the most potent setup sweepers in the tier, and is the reason people have considered it for S (and I don't blame them). The largest issues that come to mind are its physical frailty and its coverage, but its longevity helps against the former and it's not even the lack of coverage that bothers Lilligant, rather the strength of its available coverage.
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Changes:
Scyther: A -> A+
Leavanny: C- -> C
Arbok: C- -> C+
Monferno: Unranked -> C-
Swanna: B -> B-
Mawile: A -> A+
Klinklang: A -> A+
Dusknoir: C- -> C
Hariyama: A+ -> A
Nominating Munchlax to C-
idk why this mon isnt ranked yet as it's definitely better than ariados or lumineon. Munchlax has a great niche in being able to be a pretty full stop to all of the fire types running around, as well as pretty much any special attackers like Samurott or Magmortar. Curselax can function as a decent win condition on defensive teams and can straight up beat stuff like CM Uxie and Xatu as well as take on stuff like sneasel. It relies on it's eviolite a little too much for it to be a solid C Rank mon but I do believe that considering how well it does against pretty much all of the top mons, it has a niche and deserves to be ranked.
idk why this mon isnt ranked yet as it's definitely better than ariados or lumineon. Munchlax has a great niche in being able to be a pretty full stop to all of the fire types running around, as well as pretty much any special attackers like Samurott or Magmortar. Curselax can function as a decent win condition on defensive teams and can straight up beat stuff like CM Uxie and Xatu as well as take on stuff like sneasel. It relies on it's eviolite a little too much for it to be a solid C Rank mon but I do believe that considering how well it does against pretty much all of the top mons, it has a niche and deserves to be ranked.
I agree with ranking Munchlax. I've started using it again recently and Munchlax definitely has its uses. It has more flaws than appears on first sight though. For one, it's fully walled by Ghost-types. Not the best unless you like getting swept by Sub Nasty Plot Mismagius. Two, it has a garbage defense stat. Even with that huge HP stat you're still getting 3HKO'd by common walls like Garbodor, Seismitoad or Rhydon. Which brings me to a third weakness: RestTalk. It's not reliable recovery, it's easy to take advantage of and possibly even more important: it takes up two move slots. Four, you're dirt slow. Slowpoke's base speed is 3 times higher than Munchlax's. Yeah that's pretty slow. Which means that all those aforementioned 3HKO's are quite a huge pain as you can't even spam Rest to stall them out (and even then you'd just be fishing for crits against you).
It doesn't even handle top threats as well as you'd think. Specs Typhlosion 2HKO's with Focus Blast with just a bit of prior damage even if you run max SpDef (which you kinda have to). The reason you have to is because otherwise stuff like Mega Camerupt can 3HKO with Earth Power (and yes Mega Camerupt is faster than you, once again). If Camerups runs EQ it's a clean 3HKO regardless. I also tried switching into a Xatu the other day, got maimed by LO Psyshock. Mesprit, same story except you also risk physical sets and/or Knock Off or Trick. You're setup fodder for both Klinklang and Mawile. Malamar laughs in your face and so do all the fighting types which are on every other team like Sawk, Hariyama or Gurdurr. Samurott can easily wreck you with a mixed set with Superpower or a SD set (which is now no longer outclassed by Gatr).
But I mean Munchlax is still usable, it actually has pretty good attack for a wall (unlike Audino, cough). If you invest a little you can actually 2HKO Sawk with Return so it can't come in for free. It has pretty good synergy with stuff like Garbodor (Whirlwind + Spikes coming to mind) and other Poison types like Weezing or Vileplume. The Curse set is actually pretty good but requires heavy support to take out Ghost-types and Fighting-types. Hard to stop once these counters are gone, but that applies to more mons than just Munchlax of course.
I'd say rank it just because, but don't expect miracles from it.
It doesn't even handle top threats as well as you'd think. Specs Typhlosion 2HKO's with Focus Blast with just a bit of prior damage even if you run max SpDef (which you kinda have to). The reason you have to is because otherwise stuff like Mega Camerupt can 3HKO with Earth Power (and yes Mega Camerupt is faster than you, once again). If Camerups runs EQ it's a clean 3HKO regardless. I also tried switching into a Xatu the other day, got maimed by LO Psyshock. Mesprit, same story except you also risk physical sets and/or Knock Off or Trick. You're setup fodder for both Klinklang and Mawile. Malamar laughs in your face and so do all the fighting types which are on every other team like Sawk, Hariyama or Gurdurr. Samurott can easily wreck you with a mixed set with Superpower or a SD set (which is now no longer outclassed by Gatr).
But I mean Munchlax is still usable, it actually has pretty good attack for a wall (unlike Audino, cough). If you invest a little you can actually 2HKO Sawk with Return so it can't come in for free. It has pretty good synergy with stuff like Garbodor (Whirlwind + Spikes coming to mind) and other Poison types like Weezing or Vileplume. The Curse set is actually pretty good but requires heavy support to take out Ghost-types and Fighting-types. Hard to stop once these counters are gone, but that applies to more mons than just Munchlax of course.
I'd say rank it just because, but don't expect miracles from it.
Post some good replays of Munchlax actually doing something Can-Eh-Dian
If you want something to be ranked in the future please post some replays of why it should be ranked.
If you want something to be ranked in the future please post some replays of why it should be ranked.
Nominating Mr. Mime to C+/B-
So this is a mon I've been play testing quite heavily this past week, and I feel it has some very good uses in the NU metagame. The main set I've been running is one very similar to Mesprit, I run a scarf set with Healing Wish.
The reason I started using Mime over Mes was because of Focus Blast. Unlike Mesprit, Mime has access to Focus Blast, giving it perfect coverage in the NU meta, being able to hit steel types like Ferroseed and Klinklang and rock type such as Rhydon in the same move. Plus it doesn't need to run Signal Beam for malamar because it has STAB Dazzling Gleam to work with, so it's coverage for dark types is also much stronger then Mesprit. One other cool thing it has over Mesprit is better speed, being base 90 speed, it can out speed such things as Jolly scarf Sawk, +1 hp fire Lilligant, Gorebyss after a SS, Scarf Rotom-S, and +1 Viv. All of which Mesprit fails to do.
Over all it has some flaws like being frail to non resisted physical attacks, and being directly competing with one of the the best mons in the tier, but I think Mime has some very solid niches over Mesprit and shouldn't be over looked.
Edit: Soundproof is also fun for those specs swellows that are oh so popular right now ;]
So this is a mon I've been play testing quite heavily this past week, and I feel it has some very good uses in the NU metagame. The main set I've been running is one very similar to Mesprit, I run a scarf set with Healing Wish.
The reason I started using Mime over Mes was because of Focus Blast. Unlike Mesprit, Mime has access to Focus Blast, giving it perfect coverage in the NU meta, being able to hit steel types like Ferroseed and Klinklang and rock type such as Rhydon in the same move. Plus it doesn't need to run Signal Beam for malamar because it has STAB Dazzling Gleam to work with, so it's coverage for dark types is also much stronger then Mesprit. One other cool thing it has over Mesprit is better speed, being base 90 speed, it can out speed such things as Jolly scarf Sawk, +1 hp fire Lilligant, Gorebyss after a SS, Scarf Rotom-S, and +1 Viv. All of which Mesprit fails to do.
Over all it has some flaws like being frail to non resisted physical attacks, and being directly competing with one of the the best mons in the tier, but I think Mime has some very solid niches over Mesprit and shouldn't be over looked.
Edit: Soundproof is also fun for those specs swellows that are oh so popular right now ;]
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I support this nomination. Mr. Mime not only has access to two strong offensive STABs, his ability technician also grants him access to base 90 hidden power attacks which in conjunction with psychic/dazzling gleam/focus blast, gives him fantastic coverage. His specs set can hit very hard, and although his speed tier leaves much to be desired, his base special defense allows him to usually take a special hit or two and respond back.Nominating Mr. Mime to C+/B-
So this is a mon I've been play testing quite heavily this past week, and I feel it has some very good uses in the NU metagame. The main set I've been running is one very similar to Mesprit, I run a scarf set with Healing Wish.
The reason I started using Mime over Mes was because of Focus Blast. Unlike Mesprit, Mime has access to Focus Blast, giving it perfect coverage in the NU meta, being able to hit steel types like Ferroseed and Klinklang and rock type such as Rhydon in the same move. Plus it doesn't need to run Signal Beam for malamar because it has STAB Dazzling Gleam to work with, so it's coverage for dark types is also much stronger then Mesprit. One other cool thing it has over Mesprit is better speed, being base 90 speed, it can out speed such things as Jolly scarf Sawk, +1 hp fire Lilligant, Gorebyss after a SS, Scarf Rotom-S, and +1 Viv. All of which Mesprit fails to do.
Over all it has some flaws like being frail to non resisted physical attacks, and being directly competing with one of the the best mons in the tier, but I think Mime has some very solid niches over Mesprit and shouldn't be over looked.
Also, healing wish, trick, encore, taunt, nasty plot, and baton pass make up its fantastic support movepool.
I thought it was pretty obvious why it should be ranked, its not like i rekt some n00bs with DD seadra and need to provide replays to show it in action. I outlined it's niches pretty thoroughly and I don't think I need to provide replays to show how it beats the majority of strong special attackers in the tier, the calcs do that.
252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Munchlax: 87-103 (21.1 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 121-144 (29.4 - 35%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 121-144 (29.4 - 35%) -- 13.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 72-85 (17.5 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO (hyper voice does about the same)
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 121-144 (29.4 - 35%) -- 14.6% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 121-144 (29.4 - 35%) -- 13.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 72-85 (17.5 - 20.6%) -- possible 5HKO (hyper voice does about the same)
I dont think I need to post a complete wall of calcs to illustrate how effective this thing can be on defensive teams, and I think we can overlook the replay factor for this mon because it so blatantly deserves to be ranked.
gonna have to disagree with this, i think that this mon is outclassed by mesprit even when it has Focus Blast and STAB dazzling gleam. The Psychic, Fighting, Fairy coverage that mime runs hits pretty much the exact same things that the Psychic, Bug, and Fire Coverage that Mesprit commonly runs. Dazzling Gleam doesnt really provide stronger coverage against Dark types than mesprit's signal beam because the 2 of the 3 relevant dark types in the tier are hit harder by signal beam anyways and sneasel gets beat by focus blast from mime. The extra speed doesn't really come into play because the only 2 things that you're really outspeeding is Sawk which usually runs Adamant anyways so +Natured Mesprit can outspeed and Rotom-S which is ok to outspeed i guess its kind of a neutral matchup anyways. All the other stuff can chew a hit ie. +1 Lilli / Vivi and neutral gorebyss takes like half from both of Mime's stab moves which is kinda pathetic. Mesprit can also mix it up and run Special or Physical scarf sets, as well as having infinitely better physical bulk and marginally better special bulk which actually allow it to live neutral hits as well as pivot out which mime can't do. Basically any of mime's sets outside of like taunt NP or anything with NP are outclassed by Mesprit and it's marginal speed, access to NP, and fairy typing (which doesn't really do it many favours defensively) are enough of a niche as to where its fine in C right now.Nominating Mr. Mime to C+/B-
So this is a mon I've been play testing quite heavily this past week, and I feel it has some very good uses in the NU metagame. The main set I've been running is one very similar to Mesprit, I run a scarf set with Healing Wish.
The reason I started using Mime over Mes was because of Focus Blast. Unlike Mesprit, Mime has access to Focus Blast, giving it perfect coverage in the NU meta, being able to hit steel types like Ferroseed and Klinklang and rock type such as Rhydon in the same move. Plus it doesn't need to run Signal Beam for malamar because it has STAB Dazzling Gleam to work with, so it's coverage for dark types is also much stronger then Mesprit. One other cool thing it has over Mesprit is better speed, being base 90 speed, it can out speed such things as Jolly scarf Sawk, +1 hp fire Lilligant, Gorebyss after a SS, Scarf Rotom-S, and +1 Viv. All of which Mesprit fails to do.
Over all it has some flaws like being frail to non resisted physical attacks, and being directly competing with one of the the best mons in the tier, but I think Mime has some very solid niches over Mesprit and shouldn't be over looked.
Edit: Soundproof is also fun for those specs swellows that are oh so popular right now ;]
Yes Mesprtit comes hits about the same coverage if you run Signal Beam + HP Fire, (if you ignore rock types which that set can't hit unlike mime)
But the main thing is that mime has safer options to lock itself into. Now let me explain what I mean by this.
Yes Signal Beam hits malamar harder, Mesprit can be punished very hard for locking itself into Signal Beam due to lack of STAB and Signal Beams low base power. On the other hand, Mimes STAB Dazzling Gleam is a safe option to lock yourself into, as it's STAB and higher base power.
And I'll take Focus Blast to hit steel types any day over HP Fire. The only steel type you're going to be hitting harder is Ferroseed. Focus Blast is not only a stronger option to hit steel type, but it also hit rock types which I think you kinda skimmed over in your post.
Also it's worth noting that Technician boosted HP Fighting is the same as an Aura Sphere. So theres that going for it too if you feel like Focus Blast is a bit shaky for coverage.
Deej Dy
Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
@Can Eh
I'm pretty sure Monty's skepticism of Munchlax comes from its offensive passivity. Sure it can take all these special hits, but what can it do back with 0 attack investment? What makes it any better than Sliggoo, which has superior typing and more speed? (only thing I can think of is the curse set, which is walled by any Ghost, Rock,and Steel in the tier)
I support a rise in Mr. Mime as well. It doesn't need to outclass an S rank mon (Mesprit) to obtain C+ or B- rank, it just needs to fulfill a niche that Mesprit doesn't, and that is the strong fighting coverage of which Focus Blast or 90 base power Hidden Power fighting provide. It is also faster than Mesprit as Sir Kay noted and has fairy STAB which hits everything a lot harder than a non STAB Signal Beam, barring Malamar which Scarf Mime still 2HKOs.
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 188-224 (50 - 59.5%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I too believe that Mr. Mime is a bit low ranked at this time when it has access to Healing Wish, Fairy typing, a good move-pool and speed tier, access to Nasty Plot, etc.
I'm pretty sure Monty's skepticism of Munchlax comes from its offensive passivity. Sure it can take all these special hits, but what can it do back with 0 attack investment? What makes it any better than Sliggoo, which has superior typing and more speed? (only thing I can think of is the curse set, which is walled by any Ghost, Rock,and Steel in the tier)
I support a rise in Mr. Mime as well. It doesn't need to outclass an S rank mon (Mesprit) to obtain C+ or B- rank, it just needs to fulfill a niche that Mesprit doesn't, and that is the strong fighting coverage of which Focus Blast or 90 base power Hidden Power fighting provide. It is also faster than Mesprit as Sir Kay noted and has fairy STAB which hits everything a lot harder than a non STAB Signal Beam, barring Malamar which Scarf Mime still 2HKOs.
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Malamar: 188-224 (50 - 59.5%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
I too believe that Mr. Mime is a bit low ranked at this time when it has access to Healing Wish, Fairy typing, a good move-pool and speed tier, access to Nasty Plot, etc.
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Munchlax has fairly decent attack for a defensive pokemon (Base 85) and can threaten pretty much all of the special attackers i mentioned (outside of camerupt) with the 30% chance for a body slam para which can cripple them for the remainder of the game. Sure it gets beat by p much every ghost type (curse sets up on stuff like regirock btw) but so does bouffalant when it runs SubSD.
in regards to mime, just going to nitpick on that point about steel types first. out of the 3 relevant steel types in the tier, hp fire hits as hard or harder because ferroseed is 4x as you know, and mawile is actually neutral to focus blast which means that HP fire hits just as hard and you dont have to worry about missing. the only steel type you hit harder is klinklang but the thing is that you have to bring mime in before it gets up a boost or it just dies. Now mesprit is not a good check to klinklang either but at least it can live a +1 gear grind and maybe revenge it if it's low. The point about rock types is fine, just note that you're doing under half to both Regirock and Rhydon with a focus blast which is pretty pathetic.
when talking about mime you talk like scarf is it's best set when it really should be running an item that allows it to use it's actual niche over mesprit which is it's better support and set-up moves. scarf is actually pretty mediocre on it because of it's middling speed tier as I explained in my prior post. scarf special mesprit is not good with moves like signal beam and hp fire and i'll be the first one to admit it. but that doesn't mean that scarf mime is any better due to its incredible lack of strength even with STAB on gleam and high BP coverage moves like focus blast. and as I outlined in my previous post mime does have its niche over mesprit which is better support moves, focus blast and fairy typing (which is kind of hindrance defensively anyways). the extra speed is irrelevant as i outlined in my previous post as well. its niches are good niches and are why it fits the desc for a C rank mon.
in regards to mime, just going to nitpick on that point about steel types first. out of the 3 relevant steel types in the tier, hp fire hits as hard or harder because ferroseed is 4x as you know, and mawile is actually neutral to focus blast which means that HP fire hits just as hard and you dont have to worry about missing. the only steel type you hit harder is klinklang but the thing is that you have to bring mime in before it gets up a boost or it just dies. Now mesprit is not a good check to klinklang either but at least it can live a +1 gear grind and maybe revenge it if it's low. The point about rock types is fine, just note that you're doing under half to both Regirock and Rhydon with a focus blast which is pretty pathetic.
when talking about mime you talk like scarf is it's best set when it really should be running an item that allows it to use it's actual niche over mesprit which is it's better support and set-up moves. scarf is actually pretty mediocre on it because of it's middling speed tier as I explained in my prior post. scarf special mesprit is not good with moves like signal beam and hp fire and i'll be the first one to admit it. but that doesn't mean that scarf mime is any better due to its incredible lack of strength even with STAB on gleam and high BP coverage moves like focus blast. and as I outlined in my previous post mime does have its niche over mesprit which is better support moves, focus blast and fairy typing (which is kind of hindrance defensively anyways). the extra speed is irrelevant as i outlined in my previous post as well. its niches are good niches and are why it fits the desc for a C rank mon.
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