Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

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I can't see vigoroth beating malamar, especially when malamar has a super effective move that boosts its stats, and is immune to taunt. Tbh although vigoroth has nice bulk, it just gets forced out right as it starts to set up, and you're just better off using something like gurdurr, malamar, or even quagsire as a bulky physical mon
Malamar is not immune to Taunt for one. Not sure what made you think that. And although I questioned it myself at first, Vigoroth has a decent shot at beating Malamar in theory.

+6 4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Vigoroth: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's if you Knock Off along the way of setting up. Okay consider these facts now. Malamar has 8 Superpowers. Malamar comes in on Vigoroth (you're not going to switch in to try and set up on a Superpowering Malamar). This is the damage Malamar can inflict after a Bulk Up as you come in, then another one before you hit this Superpower:

4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 66-78 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO

You easily set up to +6 and Slack Off any damage if needed. Superpower runs out quickly, Knock Off does this much after Eviolite is gone:

+6 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Vigoroth: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- 2.1% chance to 4HKO

Return does this much:

+6 4 Atk Vigoroth Return vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 102-121 (27.1 - 32.1%) -- 54.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vigoroth has Taunt which stops RestTalk. It will take a while, but in theory Vigoroth wins, not counting crits of course.

Also the arguments "it gets forced out right as it starts to set up" and "use gurdurr instead" are not particularly convincing, just letting you know.
 


  • C/C+ is wayyy to high. Could possibly see at D rank maybe or even just stay unranked...
  • It's reliant on it's item Eviolite and knock off is extremely common
  • No resistances and weak to fighting types which are very prominent right now
  • Prone to status, stuff like scald burns and sludge bomb poisons screw it over and limit it's potential seen as how it can't get rid of status unlike Miltank and hell even Munchlax lol.
  • Faces competition from other normal boosters particularly Miltank. While they cannot stallbreak there not prone to status and has 3 amazing abilities which work well as a booster. Miltank is also even faster than Vigoroth too until it decides to curse up lol.
Also you mention that Vigoroth is able to beat a lot of Sneasels checks but I fail to see that tbh, it really only beats a short few. Against defensive checks it's really only beats Possibly defensive Mawile, CroDino and Granbull. Anything else really does not care. And Literally all the offensive sneasel checks beat it; fighting types, steel boosters, Barb and Carracosta, it's really only taking on offensive m-audino lol and Granbull again lol.

And it's nothing like a Gogoat it my eyes either. Gogoat isn't even that fantastic but it's extremely bulky and gets more set up opportunities, able to effectively use it's coverage moves, has room for moves like substitute which are hard to break once it's got up a few boosts or too and avoids status and while not being reliant on it's item. Overall I mostly just see Vigoroth as being mediocre, the only thing that would make me want to use this thing for is that semi fast taunt, guess that's it's little niche but I don't even think that's enough for it to be ranked. Anything else it's doing is just mostly outclassed.
Well first things first, did you even use vigoroth? I'm gonna go ahead and say you didn't and you just judged it by theory instead of actually trying it. Taunt is incredibly value to vigoroth as it allows it to set up on a multitude of things without them setting up alonside you. Also curse is a worse move than bulk up, by lowering your speed it makes you even more vunarable to fighting types, while vigoroth can outspeed certain things after setting up. Also yes, vigoroth may be more reliant on it's item, it's still bulkier than miltank with eviolite and lets be honest, you shouldn't be keeping a vigoroth on a mon with knock off.

Maybe vigoroth isn't worthy of C rank (although I do believe it is), although you could at least try using the mon on topic instead of judging a book by it's cover.
 

shiloh

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Tiering Lead
ok, i have used Vigoroth, and I 100% agree with Waters here. First off he noted that the status was coming from scald and sludge bomb, which are moves that pokemon can go for while they are taunted, so taunt is out of the picture in that cased. Vigoroth needs a lot of speed investment to outspeed prominent fighting types like Gallade and Sawk, so I am not sure where your argument there is. Also you are dodging the rest of his argument and just calling him out instead, while almost everything he pointed out is correct. Vigoroth cannot break past Sneasels checks like you pointed out, as it loses against Gurdurr, Carracosta, Barbaracle, etc. Either leave Vigoroth unranked or keep it in D.
 
Malamar is not immune to Taunt for one. Not sure what made you think that. And although I questioned it myself at first, Vigoroth has a decent shot at beating Malamar in theory.

+6 4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Vigoroth: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

That's if you Knock Off along the way of setting up. Okay consider these facts now. Malamar has 8 Superpowers. Malamar comes in on Vigoroth (you're not going to switch in to try and set up on a Superpowering Malamar). This is the damage Malamar can inflict after a Bulk Up as you come in, then another one before you hit this Superpower:

4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. +2 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 66-78 (18.1 - 21.4%) -- possible 5HKO

You easily set up to +6 and Slack Off any damage if needed. Superpower runs out quickly, Knock Off does this much after Eviolite is gone:

+6 4 Atk Malamar Knock Off vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Vigoroth: 79-94 (21.7 - 25.8%) -- 2.1% chance to 4HKO

Return does this much:

+6 4 Atk Vigoroth Return vs. +6 252 HP / 0 Def Malamar: 102-121 (27.1 - 32.1%) -- 54.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vigoroth has Taunt which stops RestTalk. It will take a while, but in theory Vigoroth wins, not counting crits of course.

Also the arguments "it gets forced out right as it starts to set up" and "use gurdurr instead" are not particularly convincing, just letting you know.
It's not technically immune, but why exactly does malamar even care about taunt? It doesn't need to use rest or sleep talk, it just spams superpower until +4/+4. I also don't get why you have a knock off calc posted, when this happens:

4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 130-154 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 260-306 (71.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 324-382 (89 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Even after both mons use a few bulk ups, malamar wins, especially if it decides to knock off vigoroth's eviolite.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
It's not technically immune, but why exactly does malamar even care about taunt? It doesn't need to use rest or sleep talk, it just spams superpower until +4/+4. I also don't get why you have a knock off calc posted, when this happens:

4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 130-154 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 194-230 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 260-306 (71.4 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 4 Atk Malamar Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 324-382 (89 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Even after both mons use a few bulk ups, malamar wins, especially if it decides to knock off vigoroth's eviolite.
how is calcing it a +0 in any way a legitimate measurement ?

it's clearly at the least at +1, and it's boosting alongside malamar pretty easily for the most part according to handy dandy mr. calculator. Once you've got max boosts, superpower runs out quickly, knock off does 0, and you can alternate between taunt, slack off, and return.

now, whether or not you can even wear away at Malamar fast enough is a very legitimate question considering, and it probably gets some great crit chances. on the other hand, you could just spam Return a lot, with Taunt in your back pocket waiting to be whipped out.
 
how is calcing it a +0 in any way a legitimate measurement ?

it's clearly at the least at +1, and it's boosting alongside malamar pretty easily for the most part according to handy dandy mr. calculator. Once you've got max boosts, superpower runs out quickly, knock off does 0, and you can alternate between taunt, slack off, and return.

now, whether or not you can even wear away at Malamar fast enough is a very legitimate question considering, and it probably gets some great crit chances. on the other hand, you could just spam Return a lot, with Taunt in your back pocket waiting to be whipped out.
If it chooses to bulk up while malamar super powers, than you can assume the +0 situation while only malamar gets off damage, and vigoroth can't even heal with leftovers. The only situation in which vigoroth can beat malamar is if he already got up 2 bulk ups before malamar switches in. If not, malamar just spams superpower and has a guaranteed win.

Also, you don't need more than 8 superpowers to kill a vigoroth. If it chooses to slack off, it falls behind on its defensive boosts and loses next turn (or the turn after next) anyways.
 

shiloh

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Tiering Lead
how is calcing it a +0 in any way a legitimate measurement ?

it's clearly at the least at +1, and it's boosting alongside malamar pretty easily for the most part according to handy dandy mr. calculator. Once you've got max boosts, superpower runs out quickly, knock off does 0, and you can alternate between taunt, slack off, and return.

now, whether or not you can even wear away at Malamar fast enough is a very legitimate question considering, and it probably gets some great crit chances. on the other hand, you could just spam Return a lot, with Taunt in your back pocket waiting to be whipped out.
Yeah no. Superpower is actually damaging you while boosting at the same time, while Bulk Up doesn't damage Malamar at all. This forces you to eventually Slack Off, and at that point Malamar does more damage to you, which forces you to slack off again and at that point you just flat out lose to Malamar. Vigoroth is not able to beat Malamar in a 1v1 scenario, even if it has taken some prior damage, as shown in this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-243926741.
 
ok, i have used Vigoroth, and I 100% agree with Waters here. First off he noted that the status was coming from scald and sludge bomb, which are moves that pokemon can go for while they are taunted, so taunt is out of the picture in that cased. Vigoroth needs a lot of speed investment to outspeed prominent fighting types like Gallade and Sawk, so I am not sure where your argument there is. Also you are dodging the rest of his argument and just calling him out instead, while almost everything he pointed out is correct. Vigoroth cannot break past Sneasels checks like you pointed out, as it loses against Gurdurr, Carracosta, Barbaracle, etc. Either leave Vigoroth unranked or keep it in D.
Scald and Sludge Bomb are really minor points honestly. For one they're luck based. If e.g. Lanturn gets weakened a little beforehand and comes in on Bulk Up then it can get one Scald off before getting 2HKO'd. Good luck I'd say. Two, Sludge Bomb only annoys Vigoroth and it means he can't get burned which he fears a lot more. Three, a good teambuilder will anticipate these threats and run Heal Bell support if he decides to run Vigoroth. Musharna in particular comes to mind, as she not only functions as a cleric but also takes care of Fighting-types pretty handily for Vigoroth in just one slot.

Also I'm pretty sure Adaire meant Vigoroth can outspeed stuff in general, not just Fighting-types. If you read carefully he says "certain things", which is not limited to Fighting-types alone. I'm pretty sure Curse Miltank can't beat lets say Toxic Regirock even with Heal Bell because of PP issues, you'd need RestTalk for that. Vigoroth wins pretty easily and even prevents SR from going up while doing it, thanks to his good natural speed without investment putting him above pretty much all walls. And Vigoroth does break Mawile, Granbull and Mega Audino which are Sneasel checks.
Yeah no. Superpower is actually damaging you while boosting at the same time, while Bulk Up doesn't damage Malamar at all. This forces you to eventually Slack Off, and at that point Malamar does more damage to you, which forces you to slack off again and at that point you just flat out lose to Malamar. Vigoroth is not able to beat Malamar in a 1v1 scenario, even if it has taken some prior damage, as shown in this replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-243926741.
Okay but try that while Malamar switches in on Vigoroth's Bulk Up because of course Malamar wins in that scenario. And make sure the other player doesn't Slack Off before he needs to, he could have Bulked Up again before his first Slack Off. I'm interested to see how it would work out.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
Too bad any logical scenario involves you switching into him, meaning you have a +1 boost before he moves and radically altering the dynamic...
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/customgame-243929489
Fine here is the scenario against a +1 Vigoroth, Malamar still wins 1 on 1.
That's very interesting. You have to admit it was pretty close though, Malamar was down to his last Superpower. If Vigoroth was able to tank 2 more he would have come out on top. It's the Knock Off that did it I believe. So this pretty much proves that Vigoroth is in fact, an inferior Malamar :/
 

Deej Dy

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You can also take in to account that you can knock off its Eviolite if you want to save the Superpower for later and then SP does 53-61% without eviolite when both have equal boosts, while Vigoroth does around 27-32% with return.
 

Punchshroom

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For the record, I've seen Malamars switch into Gurdurrs and proceed to beat them 1v1 by virtue of the fact that Malamar deals damage while boosting; don't see a Normal-type Eviolite mon (susceptible to both Superpower and Knock Off) faring any better.

I'll hold off on nominating anything else, but I will just drop off a small note that Gourgeist-Small (with Colbur Berry) is doing very well for itself as one of the only reliable Gallade switch-ins in the tier that isn't a complete momentum suck; it will never get hit with a +2 Knock Off as Foul Play will finish Gallade off by then, or if it is Bulk Up a Wisp to the face should do the trick. Just in case anyone gets ideas about dropping SmallGeist below SuperGeist.
 
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Taunt Toxic Vigoroth sounds cool. It doesn't care as much about getting burned or poisoned because it's not trying to sweep teams and you can run Heal Bell support for it. Bulk Up still sounds alright and definitely isn't just an inferior Malamar because it can run Taunt. I'd support putting it somewhere in C, but like Can-Eh-Dian said, it's not like this is a high priority change.
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
I want Gurdurr to go to A+ rank. It is a monster right now thanks to it forcing out Sneasels everyday thanks to Mach Punch. Gurdurr is pretty bulky with Eviolite and can proceed to use Bulk Up and attempt a sweep. With Guts, it can come in on paralysis, burns, and even Toxic if it HAS to and get an Attack boost. It has semi-reliable recovery with Drain Punch and has good coverage with Knock Off hitting Psychics and Ghosts, who would otherwise wall him. Problems with Gurdurr are average special bulk, the number of Psychic types and Gallades running around, and low speed, but being able to beat threats like Sneasel and normal types like Tauros and Bouffalant is a huge boon for Gurdurr, and I feel like it's definitely a A+ mon right now.
 

Ares

Fool me...can't get fooled again
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Raseri they have been freed
Code:
Samurot A+ --> A
Jynx A --> A-
Lanturn A --> A+
Mawile A --> A+
Rhydon A --> A-
Rotom A --> A-
Xatu A --> A+
Carracosta A- --> A
Ferroseed A- --> B+
Klingklang A- --> A
Mismagius A- --> B+
Stunfisk A- --> B
Aurorus B+ --> A-
Cryogonal B+ --> B
Gourgeist-S B+ --> A-
Gourgeist-XL B+ --> B
Ninetales B+ --> B
Rotom-Fan B+ --> B
Crustle B --> B-
Pawniard B --> B+
Mantine B --> B-
Granbull B- --> B+
Floatzel B- --> B+
Poliwrath B- --> B
Piloswine B- --> B+
Swanna B- --> C+
Beheeyem C --> C+
Volbeat C- --> C+
Meowstic-M C+ --> C
Avalugg D --> C+
Misdreavous D --> C
Lapras Unranked --> C-
As always if I missed something be sure to VM me.
 
I know Frillish isnt the best, but it does a decent job at walling some top tier threats (to an extent) and being a bulky spinblocker is incredibly useful. Sneasel can be a bit of a pain but there reliant on predition since most of there time there banded, should they chose to pursuit at the wrong me they can get with a will'o. Even if they get off a succesfull pursuit it still lives and literally giving anything a chance too set up next turn if banded. (liligants, Klinklangs Shell smashaers etc)

Don't wanna see this thing drop, it's still useful. :o
 

Kiyo

the cowboy kid
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Yeah I don't necessarily agree with Frillish dropping either, still does a great job of dealing with things like Samurott, Klinklang, Kangaskhan, Tauros, etc. If we were dropping everything that was made unviable by Sneasel our list would be pretty small.
 

Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
Just making a note masquerain is currently unranked, I'd give him at least D. I'm not going to make an extensive explanation as I don't really care and have never used him this gen but intimidate + quiver pass seems good enough to be in the rankings especially with the existence of kee berry.
 
Just making a note masquerain is currently unranked, I'd give him at least D. I'm not going to make an extensive explanation as I don't really care and have never used him this gen but intimidate + quiver pass seems good enough to be in the rankings especially with the existence of kee berry.
I think I have seen this once playing in the ladder.Can you back this up by posting a couple of replays bro?
 


Zebstrika.

C+ =====> Way, Way Higher (I was thinking maybe B+ or A-)

This Mon is absolutely amazing. Sure, its weak. Sure, its frail. Sure, its easy to wear down. Sure, a couple of relevant spdef walls stop it from gaining momentum.

But guess what.

The exact same thing can be said for Sneasel. Zebstrika had the similar SpA that Sneasel has Atk, Zebstrikas bulk is actually better all around (but neither have anything spectacular), and they both have the highest relevant speeds in the entire tier. Zebstrika has a base 116 Spe, allowing it to check Sneasel at its own game.

Therefore, all the relevant arguments that have been argued about Sneasel, its power and is speed are all relevant to zebstrika. It doesn't need to take any damage, because its so goddamn fast. It can wear down it's own checks, with volt switch'ing on out of them, and finishing them off later with tbolt. Electric + Fire Coverage is immense in this tier. Bopping the likes of Torterra, and when coupled with HP Grass, not even Rhydon is a solid switch in.

One of the main downsides to it though is Lanturn, and how common it is. But one proper counter out of the entire S - A ranks? That's not bad is it? If you match up zebstrika with all of the S rank mons and all of the A rank mons. After a volt switch or two on most of them, its capable of taking them out immediately with Thunderbolt. There is no Offense counter to it, the closest I can come to one is probably AV Evire (plz don't use that). One other downside to it is that it's prone to being weakened quickly. If you add stealth rock + life orb recoil every time it comes in to weaken its checks, it adds up, and eventually any common priority will be enough to take it out or it will take itself out.

What I like about Zebstrika most of all is that it can also provide defensive utility for your team (sound familiar??). It can serve as an awesome flying check, Lilligant / Grass check thanks to Sap Sipper or even an Electric Immunity with Motor Drive.
If you wanted, you could run a Physical Set to beat Lanturn, but that isn't recommended.

Overall, I feel like Zebstrika is a really underated Mon ATM, it can outspeed THE meta threat; Sneasel, and most of the rest of the tier. This mon is severely underrated, keep rocks off the field, no Lanturn on the other team. That's legit a recipe for the easiest Zebstrika clean of my life.

 
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