Resource ORAS NU Viability Rankings

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I never said it's used for hazards, but in general it's a good move to use on forced switches. Also I don't know where you get the idea that Cacturne is primarily used for Swords Dance when mixed LO is far more common. Sleep Powder is nice on Exeggutor until you realize that its best switch ins are immune to it. Sub Sitrus and Sub Petaya are also inconsistent gimmicks at best and Exeggutor has the same speed as Cacturne under Trick Room (even then Trick Room isn't what I'd call relevant).
i c ur point friend, it was ignorant for me to say SD was the main cactun set, for me personally i see that most commonly in NU, and i can see how trick room would be "irrelevant" or barely relevant in NU, but the main threats in NU r fast pokes like archeops, tauros, shift gear klingklang, and some other lower ranked pokes that can be hindered by TR. but back to the original post about cacturn dropping a rank, i think its bcuz sneasel and gallade were in NU between the last VB update and now, for the Majority of the time and their suspects only recently ended so cacturn wouldnt have much time to regain its footing in NU. so i expect next shift where we wont have gallade or sneasel at all we'll see cacturn rise up again. and im not exactly sure why exeggutor has risen.
 

Punchshroom

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I fail to see how Lanturn counters Kabutops, it takes 47% minimum from Adamant LO Stone edge while fully defensive.
I believe Froggyboy means that Stunfisk gets forced out by Kabutops (and Jynx), while Lanturn either isn't forced out by them, or is at least considerably riskier to attempt so (80% accurate Stone Edge). Lanturn does totally check Kabutops if it switches in on Waterfall (the safer of Tops's 2 STABs), but only once.
 
also, isnt there a special cacturn set?
Yeah, a lot of Cacturne use a specially biased mixed set with Giga Drain, Dark Pulse and Sucker Punch, since both of its attacking stats are so high. Grass/Dark coverage is great for hitting most Pokemon in the tier with neutral or SE damage, so that's why you'll often see Spikes in the 4th moveslot, since its one of Cacturne's best support moves and can often be used when it forces a switch.
 
Steakburgers already mentioned it but I'm just not really feeling why Stunfisk dropped all the way down to C rank when it's clearly much more useful than stuff like Frogadier and Dusknoir. It's great match up against all 4 S rank mons particularly Xatu and Klinklang, handles stuff like Garbodor, Regirock, Mawile, Fletchinder, Swellow, Scyther and Weezing. Stopping volturn cores is useful too and being extremely bulky on both sides while spreading status with Discharge Paralysis, static and toxic can be extremely annoying to deal with.
Yes it did lose it main value of beating Magneton but I'd still call it B material if not then nothing below C+ :[
 
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Meh, I feel like talking about some mons quickly, and the viability ranks are looking more than a little skewed (We have a total of 6 mons in A- and 32 in C+, to look at the extremes. C+ is probably over twice as big as literally anything else, and A- is probably half the size or less of anything not named S. So, there's probably some room for adjustment to balance things a little.) anyways, so.

Let's start with the easy one(s).

Avalugg to C-/D
Okay, am I missing something? Was there a reason this was ever that good other than it was beating all the annoying offensive mons in the trash meta that was Sneasel/Gallade? It's a specially frail defensive ice type that's slow as balls, a spinner weak to rocks, and it became relevant because Sneasel was on every other team. I mean sure, the physical bulk gives it a niche. It's still really not that good anymore.

Ninjask to C
It's certainly not a terrible pokemon. Ninjask however has a few things it struggles with. One, is a 4x weakness to stealth rock, lowering the amount of times it can come in if rocks are on the field drastically, especially when it wants to click U-turn like 95% of the time. It's got niche over it's Bug/Flying big brother, Scyther, but it still suffers from heavy competition from it. In fact, it's niche basically comes down to having a stronger u-turn than scarf Scyther(Random calcs to give you a picture of comparable hits between the two:
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Fletchinder: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Fletchinder: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 118-139 (33.4 - 39.3%) -- 15.7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Scyther U-turn vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 82-97 (23.2 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery)
and a much better speed tier than banded Scyther.
With steels being high in popularity (Klinklang and Mawile to be specific), bulky poisons like Weezing and Garbodor being popular as always, (the latter of which has rocky helmet typically), bulky ghosts like Misdreavus and Golurk rising in popularity, and bulky defensive mons that can sponge hits from a Ninjask easily, ie Rhydon, Carracosta, Regirock, Piloswine, Ferroseed, and various other checks such as Fletchinder, Rotom, Lanturn, Magmortar, Archeops and Aurorus being common, Ninjask has a lot to struggle with, and though it can spam U-turn and get momentum, it also has to struggle hard to even make it's way onto a team over Scyther just to be middling against a lot of pokemon. Scyther also shares problems with these pokemon, but both has a bulky set that manages better against some of these mons, doesn't have to suffer competition over something that does most of what it does better. I suppose it can't pass SDs + Speed anymore either, but that set sucked anyways so who cares there.

Dusknoir to C-
Can I just say, that this thing has been overrated for a long time. It has exactly one viable set; Banded. This set has a large amount of flaws. First off, the obvious, competition. Golurk hits a lot hard, has STAB EQ, Iron Fist to boost moves(including pathetic STAB otherwise), and also No Guard for various uses. Dusknoir has Shadow Sneak, Trick, and Pursuit, but it's both incredibly weak(it's strongest move is base 100, nonstab, out of anything it's be running, which automatically means it's not doing much damage), and incredibly easy to take advantage of, and if it locks into any of it's options, there are many set-up sweepers in the NU metagame that can easily take advantage of it. It can trick, but then it becomes even more dead weight offensively. The only thing really in it's favour is that it's a bulky spinblocker, but lately another bulky ghost, Misdreavus, has came into favour, and it's a lot more useful than Dusknoir. Heck, there's even Gourgeist that stacks up well against most of them.

Vullaby to C
Vullaby, while not the most impressive mon in the world, certainly capitalized from the departure of Togetic. Now, it and Pelipper are the only viable defensive defoggers with access to reliable recovery. It's also got a solid ability in overcoat, allowing it to stop Lilligant, impressive bulk after eviolite, options to run both physically and specially defensive, the ubiquitous Knock Off with STAB, STAB Foul Play giving it some offensive presence against a variety of mons, and taunt utility. Defensively, while it does have weaknesses to common Electric, Ice, and Rock types, it can usually chew hits from even these pokemon, and it also has resistances to common dark, ghost, and grass types as well as immunities to ground and psychic. It's also neutral to the common signal beams, which allows it to check most psychics fairly well. A speed tier of 60 allows to to outspeed a lot of common mons and drop taunts on them as well.

There's also potential to move Kadabra up to like B- I feel, as it's a very unique mon with a solid speed tier, movepool, and ability, and sashed Kadabra is a really cool 'safety net'. That being said I'm not that experienced with it so I'm not going to say much about it.
I also want to quickly mention Victreebel again, as while I feel personally it doesn't need to make a huge raise, I think it more than deserves to at least B-, as it is a gigantic threat, even if it is nowhere near Ludicolo's level, but I mean Ludicolo is sitting pretty all the way up in A.
Out of what could jump in C+ I'll also say Simipour, which sits at an interesting speed tier of 101, has nasty plot, allowing it to be a huge threat, water/grass/ice coverage unresisted by anything not named Sap Sipper Marill, focus blast to bop Ferroseeds even, and potential for more gimmickys sets involving things like physical moves with it's statspread and movepool.
Also finally I feel Stunfisk dropped too far, as it stops Klinklang, provides paralysis support, has unique typing, a lot of bulk, and threatens contact attackers just by them touching it. Might not have the best resists, but I feel like there's more than a small case it could go about B-, though I'm too lazy to make one.

Okay, now moving onto some better mons.

Poliwrath to B+
Even with Sneasel gone, Poliwrath is still a very solid mon. Special is easily it's best set, though even that can be versatile, as it can be ran bulkier, faster or even mixed(Hi Lanturn, my name is Earthquake, get 2hkoed.
4 Atk Life Orb Poliwrath Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 198-234 (49.3 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery). Special 'Wrath is a rare user of the move Vacuum Wave, a solid priority move allowing it to pick off fast threats. It hits hard with powerful dual stabs in Hydro Pump/Scald and Focus Blast, has amazing typing, an okay speed tier, and coverage in Ice Beam and even Psychic potentially. It also has other sets, however. It run a defensive phazer with circle throw, which is able to check a lot of threatening sweepers and such, subpunch with stab, etc, with plenty of room for innovation and creativity on any of it's sets. Even the standard can certainly be played with right down to EV spreads. It's somewhat low stats might seem a bit underwhelming on paper but it's typing and moves give it a lot more utility and viability than at first glance.

Golurk to B+
Golurk has always been an interesting pokemon. It's unique Ghost/Ground typing gives it some interesting typing quirks, with immunities to common Fighting, Normal, and Electric pokemon and a resistance to Rock. 124 attack is amazing, and 89/80/80 bulk is decent. It's able to set rocks, poke holes in things with Iron Fist boosted punches and STAB Earthquakes, has a great offensive movepool including Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Shadow Punch, Earthquake, Zen Headbutt, and Drain Punch, has No Guard DynamicPunch and Stone Edge, and even Rock Polish for potential use. It's speed stat is underwhelming, but when invested it can still outpace a lot of mons, and it can chew hits from even more. Ghosts in general have improved in this meta.

I assume Mismagius fell due to Sneasel, but I think there's more than enough of a case to bump it back to the A ranks, at least to lonely A-. It's got great sets, being able to run both Nasty Plot and a defensive set featuring Taunt and Wisp. It hits hard, has solid special bulk, a great speed tier, and it's improved a lot in this metagame.

Maybe this one's a little crazy, but I'm also gonna nom Claydol to A-. Claydol is easily our second-best hazard remover, and also a more reliable spinner than Kabutops, even if it doesn't bring as much offensive presence. Claydol has good bulk, an interesting speed tier, and an amazing special movepool, allowing it to beat a lot of common spinblockers, keep offensive presence, chew hits when needed, check certain mons, and also beat a fair amount of rock setters. Levitate and it's typing gives it a resistance/immunity to edgequake, fighting, and electric, giving it some decent typing quirks despite it's weaknesses. It's fast enough to outpace the base 70s and Malamar speedwise when invested as such, can be played with in spread, movepool, and even item(can run LO, Lefties, Colbur, even some other random resist berry for like Grass, Water or Ice probably, and I'm sure there's probably even more that could work), can set rocks if needed, has Signal Beam, Grass Knot, Ice Beam, and Shadow Ball among other things in the coverage department, rare special ground stab, and can check a lot of things, even such as Sawk(it can chew a hit and be running enough speed to outspeed it if adamant band,) Mesprit, or Rhydon.


 
frogadier is actually a lot more diverse than stunfisk it can run mix LO as a "Wall Breaker" and has 2 forms of hazards and pivot. yes stunfisk has SR and V-switch but frogadier is unpredictable it could turn ground type bcuz of spikes it could go ice, or poison, its ability protean gives it that factor. the reason why its so "low" on NU VB is its hitting power and how fragile it is. and like stated before stunfisk is slow, out-classed, checked/walled by more things than pokes like lanturn, weaknesses to some of the most common types in NU, and has nothing unique about it in the tier.
Stunfisk's typing and variety of resistances is unique, it's ability to preform a number of utility roles (rocks setter, physical tank, rest/talk) is unique, and it's ability static (which stops physical sweepers from firing off moves behind a sub or u-turning) is also unique.

Frogadier is a fine pokemon with a good ability, it just rarely offers a niche that isn't better filled by other special attackers such as jynx, samurott, lilligant, mesprit, or others. It's frailty and lack of a distinguishing set up move (nasty plot, lovely kiss, quiver dance) means it can rarely sweep teams until late game, and can never switch in to any attack.
 
Stunfisk's typing and variety of resistances is unique, it's ability to preform a number of utility roles (rocks setter, physical tank, rest/talk) is unique, and it's ability static (which stops physical sweepers from firing off moves behind a sub or u-turning) is also unique.

Frogadier is a fine pokemon with a good ability, it just rarely offers a niche that isn't better filled by other special attackers such as jynx, samurott, lilligant, mesprit, or others. It's frailty and lack of a distinguishing set up move (nasty plot, lovely kiss, quiver dance) means it can rarely sweep teams until late game, and can never switch in to any attack.
the roles of utility, rocks, pivot, and being a tank r not unique to it cuz other pokes can preform it better than it can, and what good is have multiple resistances when ur weak to half the meta (not literally) but stunfisk can resist multiple types thats decent i suppose but the types it resist in NU arent as common as the threats and commonly used pokes in NU. and frogadier tbh is not a "gud" poke in NU its solid where it is in PU even with its uniqueness
 

Deej Dy

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the roles of utility, rocks, pivot, and being a tank r not unique to it cuz other pokes can preform it better than it can, and what good is have multiple resistances when ur weak to half the meta (not literally) but stunfisk can resist multiple types thats decent i suppose but the types it resist in NU arent as common as the threats and commonly used pokes in NU. and frogadier tbh is not a "gud" poke in NU its solid where it is in PU even with its uniqueness
Can you please test a pokemon before you make a bunch of assumptions? I mean it's very clear to everyone that you have no idea what you are talking about with these pokemon by mentioning movesets these pokemon never have. Volt Switch Stunfisk? Spikes Frogadier? SD cacturne is the most common? Please learn the meta more before arguing these points.
 
I'm willing to see Stunfisk rise up to C+, but I don't think it's on par with most of B. The main problem with Stunfisk is that most of the things it does are done better by other Pokemon. Lanturn is a far better stop to opposing Electric-types because it offers a slow Volt Switch and also checks a ton of other Pokemon. Rhydon also checks many Electric-types, sets Stealth Rock, busts through Xatu, and checks Archeops and Tauros far more convincingly. Stunfisk also gives free switches to every Grass-type in the tier, especially Torterra, which can't even be paralyzed by Discharge. Still, it has completely unique typing, a great ability, and a unique combination of important traits (checks certain things while setting Stealth Rock), and I'd be fine with it in C+.

I can't agree with moving Claydol up to A-. While it has a lot of great benefits that Blaziken1337 already mentioned, in practice, it just doesn't really do a whole lot. Probably the biggest reason I can see to run Claydol over other hazard removers is checking Rhydon, but with all of Claydol, Mesprit, and Uxie becoming more common in the post-Sneasel metagame, Megahorn has also become a lot more common as well. Aside from that, Claydol is just really passive, even with an offensive set. It's really easy to pivot into Claydol and threaten it out, and while it is probably the most successful spinner in the tier, I'd generally rather run a Defogger anyways because of how much easier it is to remove hazards with them and how much easier it is to fit them onto teams. Claydol's resistances are actually mostly irrelevant because nearly every Pokemon of the types that it resists or is immune to carry strong coverage to hit it (Knock Off on Fighting-types, Signal Beam on Psychic-types, Grass coverage on Torterra, Megahorn on Rhydon, Knock Off on Sandslash, etc.), with pretty much the sole exception of Electric-types, which are already uncommon because of Lanturn's dominance.

Mismagius is still bad without Sneasel in the meta; it's just less bad. It doesn't hit hard at all because it only has one weak STAB, and it's actually mostly outclassed by Misdreavus in a defensive role. The greater Speed is the only thing it has going for it there. Offensively, I'd usually rather use Haunter, which has STAB Sludge Bomb to hit the majority of the tier absurdly hard, and it has all of the same notable support moves (Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Destiny Bond, Disable, Pain Split). Outspeeding base 95s rather than tying with them and access to Nasty Plot are the only slight niches Mismagius has over Haunter really, and neither feels THAT important right now.
 

Deej Dy

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i already accepted i was wrong about cacturn meaning no reason to bring it up and u dont know the battles i have been in, i put out after i realised my error that it was the set iv'e seen the most, and actually (stunfisk topic)i never said it was a used on its set i simply pointed it out that it was an option for ppl to use for pivot if they see fit, and same with frogadier i never said it was a viable set and i never said it was something ppl ran, i simply pointed out that they can use that as an option as apart of its move pool, and also stated that it could be used to turn into a ground type/poison type. but i will realise my error that i went under the assumption that frogadier learned spikes when it does not learn it, it only learns Toxic spikes. i accept i made a mistake, i accept i made an error, and i accept im not always right but that does not give u the right to say that ik nothing of the meta. but i do see ur view points i do may seem like ik nothing about the meta bcuz of the errors i have made and for that i will apologize for those errors.
Don't worry about it, I just recommend trying out these pokemon yourself, as many times I think something is bad on paper, then when I try it myself I find it really good. This was the case for me with Cacturne, which seems pretty terrible until you realize Water Absorb+Mixed Sets and priority make it a threat.
 

Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
Got to agree the C+ tier is very cluttered and I could see a couple of things change in the lower tiers

Misdreavus B- => C
Why is this there exactly? The chances that misdreavus fits the niche your team needs better than uxie, mesprit, gourgeist super, mismagius, rotom and haunter seems pretty ridiclously low. Missy just takes a whole fucking lot from knock off and is not will-o-wisping gurdurr and hariyama so yeah I wouldn't even mind seeing it even lower, as even dusknoir has some advatanges over misdreavus.

Ninjask C+ => C-
Ninjask can only baton pass speed now and we have a new mon for that's named combusken who just does a better job at it.

Zebstrika C+ => B-/B
The thing is the fastest viable mon in NU after swellow and it has great coverage even if it does lack power.

shedinja C+ => D
Seriously guys? what xatu is in the tier so shedinnja is viable? Most of the time, 1 mons out of 2 has a way to kill this thing really. Besides if it's not sweeping (which just never happens) this thing is probably doing nothing because the only immediate threat it poses is will-o-wisp (howd'you like xatu know huh?). X-scissor is probably one of the worst moves to run without coverage and you can't even risk it if your opponent has anything that could potentially hold a helmet.

I'll end this here for now.

Oh and get klinklang out of S...

EDIT: yeah you guys are right about ninjask, forget that nom
 
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Shuckleking87

"Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Got to agree the C+ tier is very cluttered and I could see a couple of things change in the lower tiers

Ninjask C+ => C-
Ninjask can only baton pass speed now and we have a new mon for that named combusken who just does a better job at it.
Im pretty sure the choice band set is/has been more popular, as it is stronger than choice scarf scyther, and outspeeds up to base 90 scarfers and anything not scarfed. having final gambit is also a nice option. though not being able to outspeed 95 scarfers and rotom is why its currently where it is, but i think its certainly better than c-
 
Im pretty sure the choice band set is/has been more popular, as it is stronger than choice scarf scyther, and outspeeds up to base 90 scarfers and anything not scarfed. having final gambit is also a nice option. though not being able to outspeed 95 scarfers and rotom is why its currently where it is, but i think its certainly better than c-
Yeah, Ninjask's baton passing set wasn't the set that made it C+.

Now, I'd like to make a nomination of my own: Metang to C+.
With the recent events in the tier, Metang finds itself in a position where it can actually do stuff. It checks / counters many of NU's top tier threats including but not limited to: Archeops, Mawile, KLINGKLANG, Jynx, non Heat wave Xatu, Garbodor, Mega Audino

While handling all those common threats, it also possesses a few cool moves like Stealth rocks and Pursuit. The coolest thing is that you can beat all of the aforementioned mons with one moveset: MMash/EQ/SR/ Bullet punch or pursuit.

This little metal guy is admittedly not suited for every team; it's general passiveness encourages mons to come in and set up on it. I find it working as a great glue mon capable of handling many problematic and different threats, and hence feel like that a rise in ranking is in order Metang.
 

Shuckleking87

"Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
This little metal guy is admittedly not suited for every team; it's general passiveness encourages mons to come in and set up on it. I find it working as a great glue mon capable of handling many problematic and different threats, and hence feel like that a rise in ranking is in order Metang.
Psych up metang was pretty big in 5th gen nu to deal with bulk up braviary, you could probably run psych up so say, being a threat to klinklang that has a gear grind up, boost your special defense against calm mind users, etc. I havent used the set in 6th gen so this is theorymon really so sorry about that. But I can see psych up at least somewhat working
 
archeops actually on some sets run's EQ, jynx carries lovely kiss and focus blast, mega audino on some sets goes for fire coverage in the form of fire blast or flamethrower, and xatu has pivots and runs signal beam, metang gets rekt by any fire type like pyroar and mag, gets rekt by golurk and liepard, and going under the assumption ur argument is using the bulky wall metang torterra who is a great poke in Nu right now sets up on it, lanturn walls it, tauros reks it with fire blast and or EQ. many pokemon in NU do rek metang whether its a wall or if its a rock polish sweeper IMO its fine where it is a C- Rank maybe C but not definitely not C+ imo
I'm just going to list the pokemons you said beat Metang and tell you why that's not the case
Archeops: EQ does 40% max, MMash + BP
Jynx: Focus Miss does 40% max, MMash + BP
Xatu: Pivot sets dont beat metang, signal beam variants do jack shit while metang can get boosts with MMash

Metang is not supposed to stay in on fire types anyway, it's not a perfect mon lol, I'm only arguing for C+. Same goes for golurk and liepard ( the latter of which actually loses 1v1 to Metang ;o )

Lanturn forces metang out yes, but it's not a safe switch in due to EQ.
Metang is not the best mon, and of course it loses to a bunch of stuff, like any other mon. It, however, has a definite niche in beating the mons that I mentioned that is valuable to many teams at the moment.
I stand by C+.
 
Ninjask C+ => C-
Ninjask can only baton pass speed now and we have a new mon for that named combusken who just does a better job at it.
I'd argue this mon is better compared to scyther than combusken, as the banded set with u-turn can compete with scyther's various choiced sets.
 
I'm just going to list the pokemons you said beat Metang and tell you why that's not the case
Archeops: EQ does 40% max, MMash + BP
Jynx: Focus Miss does 40% max, MMash + BP
Xatu: Pivot sets dont beat metang, signal beam variants do jack shit while metang can get boosts with MMash

Metang is not supposed to stay in on fire types anyway, it's not a perfect mon lol, I'm only arguing for C+. Same goes for golurk and liepard ( the latter of which actually loses 1v1 to Metang ;o )

Lanturn forces metang out yes, but it's not a safe switch in due to EQ.
Metang is not the best mon, and of course it loses to a bunch of stuff, like any other mon. It, however, has a definite niche in beating the mons that I mentioned that is valuable to many teams at the moment.
I stand by C+.
pivot u-turn xatu isnt supposed to beat metang, and i never said they were supposed to beat metang i just stated myself that metang is rekt by like half the meta, and liepard and golurk whoop metangs ass on a silver plate and defensive bold lanturn takes EQ'd from metang and the only set that's "viable" according to smogon is offensive rocker, and the set is SR, meteor mash, BP/EQ, toxic C: yes ur not forced to run this set but really any set metang runs is rekt by most of the meta still may it be agility or something else. and jynx also uses lovely kiss and nasty plot, metang is set up for CM xatu, and it's "not supposed to" stay in on fire types the point of it is, metang is reky by common fire types in NU, its rekt by half the meta, its walled by a lot of the meta, quag, lanturn, ferroseed, hex rotom, torterra, exeggutor, its rekt by rhydon, even stunfisk who is C+ reks it, set up foder for sub CM uxie, curse milktank beats it, SD samurot, malamar, misdreavis, mismagius, knock off ruins it, etc. ill grant u that it can take archeops, klingklang (which shouldnt be S rank IMO) and a somewhat jynx, but that does not cover up how badly its walled, checked, counterd, and set up foder to. right now its c- rank bcuz of this and i dont see it going to C+ rank anytime soon, i can kind of see it go to C but C+? nah not rn in the current meta.
 
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tagging Montsegur just to make sure he reads this.

I think this version of the viability rankings has almost run its course. One thing we have been suffering from lately is rank inflation, as we (myself included) are much more willing to move things up than move them down, so a lot of different ranks ended up being really cluttered with things that have no reason being there. I'll compile a list of things that I think are ranked too high right now just to emphasize my point.

Now would be a bad time to start a new thread, just because we are getting tier shifts right away, but I think a new thread where we start re-ranking things completely would deal with this issue a lot. And going forward, more narrow discussion could help out too, such as focusing on one rank at a time and trying to improve it.

Why am I posting this here and not in PM? idk like farming

list of things I think are to high:
Mesprit
Carracosta
Exeggutor
Torterra
Weezing
Electivire
Mismagius
Zangoose
Crustle
Kecleon
Ferroseed
Mantine
Ursaring
Cradily
Dodrio
Drifblim
Golem
Huntail
Muk
Probopass
Raichu
Dusknoir
Marowak
Meowstic-M
Quilladin
Basculin
Dragonair
Heatmor
Simisear


ya thats a lot of things, and its been like 7 months maybe a new thread would be cool :O

also Cacturne for A its way better than eggy rn
 
In defense for Dusknoir, base 100 attack STAB priority ghost (a type that's neutral on almost everything) is a huge attribute. Dusknoir fits 2 roles on spike stacking offense-- most importantly its ability to spinblock and shrug off most attacks from a Sandslash/claydol, but also as a priority abuser that punishes bulkier switch-ins such as Audino, Mawile, and Rhydon, that really hate the hazards. Most of the tier that's immune to spikes (Mesprit, Uxie, Archeops, Xatu, Fletchinder) get destroyed by shadow sneak.

And don't be fooled by Dusknoir's pitiful HP stat. Its bulk isn't fantastic, but its base 135 defenses (coupled with max HP) is still enough to allow dusknoir to tank hits. The last slot is mainly useless, you could run pursuit + trick tbh but I'm not a fan of that set. Dusknoir has access to will-o which is never a bad option (even on band), or maybe tpunch considering the rise in popularity of pelipper. Also one tiny thing about dusk is that its ability Frisk, although not /too/ useful, has its uses and can prove to be helpful once in a while.

Overall, Dusknoir clearly isn't the best pokemon. But it has some pretty cool attributes and I find it unfair to call a pokemon that's barely even recognized "overrated".
 

Sweet Jesus

Neal and Jack and me, absent lovers...
tagging Montsegur just to make sure he reads this.

I think this version of the viability rankings has almost run its course. One thing we have been suffering from lately is rank inflation, as we (myself included) are much more willing to move things up than move them down, so a lot of different ranks ended up being really cluttered with things that have no reason being there. I'll compile a list of things that I think are ranked too high right now just to emphasize my point.

Now would be a bad time to start a new thread, just because we are getting tier shifts right away, but I think a new thread where we start re-ranking things completely would deal with this issue a lot. And going forward, more narrow discussion could help out too, such as focusing on one rank at a time and trying to improve it.

Why am I posting this here and not in PM? idk like farming

list of things I think are to high:
Mesprit
Carracosta
Exeggutor
Torterra
Weezing
Electivire
Mismagius
Zangoose
Crustle
Kecleon
Ferroseed
Mantine
Ursaring
Cradily
Dodrio
Drifblim
Golem
Huntail
Muk
Probopass
Raichu
Dusknoir
Marowak
Meowstic-M
Quilladin
Basculin
Dragonair
Heatmor
Simisear


ya thats a lot of things, and its been like 7 months maybe a new thread would be cool :O

also Cacturne for A its way better than eggy rn
Agree with nearly all of this and would add those of my last post (misdreavus, shedinja)
I would want to defend ferroseed though as it's already dropped not long ago and although it might be deadweight as long as xatu is up, I've used it a lot and found a lot of teams were simply not equipped to deal with ferroseed at all giving it a niche more important than one of a B- or less. Heck Ferro is probably the viable mon that walls the largest variety of NU attackers (and stallers) without recovery (other than leech seed). Just want to mention it learns curse too, which although completely usless as long as your opponent has a fire type move, can make ferrosseed pretty frightening and help him kill many of the important threats it's usualy too weak to kill such as musharna, non heat wave xatu and klinklang.
 
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tagging Montsegur just to make sure he reads this.

list of things I think are to high:
Mesprit
Carracosta
Exeggutor
Torterra
Weezing
Electivire
Mismagius
Zangoose
Crustle
Kecleon
Ferroseed
Mantine
Ursaring
Cradily
Dodrio
Drifblim
Golem
Huntail
Muk
Probopass
Raichu
Dusknoir
Marowak
Meowstic-M
Quilladin
Basculin
Dragonair
Heatmor
Simisear
I'll just throw my thoughts out on these, maybe list a couple of the things I disagree with, agree with, or mons of my own opinion.
Mesprit- I think there's definitely a good case to drop this to A. It's not bad, of course, but again it's got the problem of being not amazing at anything either. Healing Wish support is great, but I mean there is also Lilligant, which can pull a similar roll as a Healing Wish scarfer, though both have a fair amount of flaws with those sets. Scarfed Mesprits do have U-turn momentum, but I feel their power output can be more than a little underwhelming at times, on both physical and special. In fact I feel like a lot of Mesprit's sets have underwhelming power output or competition, not that Mesprit doesn't do good job at what it does. It's also struggling with 4MSS on every set it does. Scarf wants U-turn, Knock Off, Zen Headbutt, Healing Wish, Trick, a sr set wants Rocks, U-turn, Signal Beam, Psychic, Healing Wish, other coverage moves, a say, specs set wants Psychic/Signal Beam/U-turn/Energy Ball/HP Fire/Ice Beam. Plus, I mean power-wise, it can suffer competition from Beheeyem, Exeggutor, and even Jynx teamwise, for a CM set it suffers competition from Xatu, Uxie, and even Musharna, for a scarf set it suffers competition from Jynx, Lilligant, and Mr. Mime even, etc. It's certainly still a great mon, but it's been seeming more and more lacklustre these days.

Carracosta- I disagree. I think Carracosta is still a huge threat, and amazing both offensive and defensively. Offensively it does suffer competition from Barbaracle, but it has two abilities that help it set-up, aqua jet, and can ever run special or weakness policy. Defensively it has Solid Rock, and moves like SR, Scald, and even the ubiquitous Knock Off. It's typing, ability, and moves, all give it tons of niche over Rhydon and Regirock, and it's able to check a wide variety of mons.

Weezing- Probably biased, but I disagree. As always, Weezing checks a wide variety of pokemon, thanks to it's great physical bulk and levitiate. It suffers some competition over Garbodor, but access to Will-O-Wisp, special attack + flamethrower/fire blast, and levitate all give niche. Having one weakness makes it incredibly easy to slap onto teams that struggle with things like fighting types and klinklang, and/or want checks to Kangaskhan, Scyther, Archeops, Kabutops, and more. It can switch into almost any physical attacker in the tier at least once, and it's able to utilize moves like Haze and Pain Split a lot better than Garb, seeing as defensively Garb needs to be using Spikes on every set, and Weezing also has more physical defense giving it more longevity, and lower hp also allows for more utility out of Pain Split. It does suffer from some extreme 4mss (Sludge/Flamethrower/Wisp/Haze/Pain Split/T-Spikes), but I mean that also leads to Weezing being very customizable based on the team and what it needs.

E-vire- This moved up because Magneton, now it's meh again and it can go back to like B-. It's an electric that can bop Lanturns with like eq, so maybe there's a case for it to be B, but I mean scald burns can happen to cripple you anyways, so..

Going to agree on Crustle, Kecleon, Ferroseed, Mantine, Drifblim.
Crustle and Ferroseed both fall into the group of hazard stackers in a metagame with Xatu on every team. Ferroseed especially gets destroyed by Xatu but I mean it has a lot more utility against other pokemon, while Crustle just has the potential to beat Xatu with like Rock STAB and Knock Off.
Kecleon is decent, but it's slow with some underwhelming power. Also suffers some competition for priority spamming with Kangaskhan, who's faster, stronger, and can spam scrappy double-edges etc/
Mantine... why is this still B-. Suffers a ton of competition from Pelipper and Prinplup, gets whittled down really easy, is extremely passive, gets hits fairly hard by both of our major fire types, especially Magmortar, and just in general is really meh.

Drifblim.. doesn't really do much. It's versatile, but doesn't really do anything that well, lacks recovery, flying gem to capitalize on unburden, and cm sets are also lackluster. I guess it can like defog but I'd rather use other defoggers. Heck, I'd much rather use the lower ranked Vullaby with it's longevity and support options. I guess defog+like wisp or t-wave is cool but still seems underwhelming.


Disagree on Cradily, Dodrio, Zangoose and Golem, but I don't really have much to say, so w/e, maybe I say something tomorrow if I think of it.

Agree on Probopass, Ursaring, Muk, Raichu, Marowak, Basculin, Quilladin, and especially Meowstic-M. Made a case on Meowstic before, almost said something about like half of these earlier before but I'm too lazy to say anything more.

Also agree completely on Dusknoir (Literally said this yesterday)

Finally, why are Dragonair, Heatmor, and Simisear even ranked anyways?
 

Cheryl.

Celesteela is Life
I'll just throw my thoughts out on these, maybe list a couple of the things I disagree with, agree with, or mons of my own opinion.
Mesprit- I think there's definitely a good case to drop this to A. It's not bad, of course, but again it's got the problem of being not amazing at anything either. Healing Wish support is great, but I mean there is also Lilligant, which can pull a similar roll as a Healing Wish scarfer, though both have a fair amount of flaws with those sets. Scarfed Mesprits do have U-turn momentum, but I feel their power output can be more than a little underwhelming at times, on both physical and special. In fact I feel like a lot of Mesprit's sets have underwhelming power output or competition, not that Mesprit doesn't do good job at what it does. It's also struggling with 4MSS on every set it does. Scarf wants U-turn, Knock Off, Zen Headbutt, Healing Wish, Trick, a sr set wants Rocks, U-turn, Signal Beam, Psychic, Healing Wish, other coverage moves, a say, specs set wants Psychic/Signal Beam/U-turn/Energy Ball/HP Fire/Ice Beam. Plus, I mean power-wise, it can suffer competition from Beheeyem, Exeggutor, and even Jynx teamwise, for a CM set it suffers competition from Xatu, Uxie, and even Musharna, for a scarf set it suffers competition from Jynx, Lilligant, and Mr. Mime even, etc. It's certainly still a great mon, but it's been seeming more and more lacklustre these days.

Carracosta- I disagree. I think Carracosta is still a huge threat, and amazing both offensive and defensively. Offensively it does suffer competition from Barbaracle, but it has two abilities that help it set-up, aqua jet, and can ever run special or weakness policy. Defensively it has Solid Rock, and moves like SR, Scald, and even the ubiquitous Knock Off. It's typing, ability, and moves, all give it tons of niche over Rhydon and Regirock, and it's able to check a wide variety of mons.

Weezing- Probably biased, but I disagree. As always, Weezing checks a wide variety of pokemon, thanks to it's great physical bulk and levitiate. It suffers some competition over Garbodor, but access to Will-O-Wisp, special attack + flamethrower/fire blast, and levitate all give niche. Having one weakness makes it incredibly easy to slap onto teams that struggle with things like fighting types and klinklang, and/or want checks to Kangaskhan, Scyther, Archeops, Kabutops, and more. It can switch into almost any physical attacker in the tier at least once, and it's able to utilize moves like Haze and Pain Split a lot better than Garb, seeing as defensively Garb needs to be using Spikes on every set, and Weezing also has more physical defense giving it more longevity, and lower hp also allows for more utility out of Pain Split. It does suffer from some extreme 4mss (Sludge/Flamethrower/Wisp/Haze/Pain Split/T-Spikes), but I mean that also leads to Weezing being very customizable based on the team and what it needs.

E-vire- This moved up because Magneton, now it's meh again and it can go back to like B-. It's an electric that can bop Lanturns with like eq, so maybe there's a case for it to be B, but I mean scald burns can happen to cripple you anyways, so..

Going to agree on Crustle, Kecleon, Ferroseed, Mantine, Drifblim.
Crustle and Ferroseed both fall into the group of hazard stackers in a metagame with Xatu on every team. Ferroseed especially gets destroyed by Xatu but I mean it has a lot more utility against other pokemon, while Crustle just has the potential to beat Xatu with like Rock STAB and Knock Off.
Kecleon is decent, but it's slow with some underwhelming power. Also suffers some competition for priority spamming with Kangaskhan, who's faster, stronger, and can spam scrappy double-edges etc/
Mantine... why is this still B-. Suffers a ton of competition from Pelipper and Prinplup, gets whittled down really easy, is extremely passive, gets hits fairly hard by both of our major fire types, especially Magmortar, and just in general is really meh.

Drifblim.. doesn't really do much. It's versatile, but doesn't really do anything that well, lacks recovery, flying gem to capitalize on unburden, and cm sets are also lackluster. I guess it can like defog but I'd rather use other defoggers. Heck, I'd much rather use the lower ranked Vullaby with it's longevity and support options. I guess defog+like wisp or t-wave is cool but still seems underwhelming.


Disagree on Cradily, Dodrio, Zangoose and Golem, but I don't really have much to say, so w/e, maybe I say something tomorrow if I think of it.

Agree on Probopass, Ursaring, Muk, Raichu, Marowak, Basculin, Quilladin, and especially Meowstic-M. Made a case on Meowstic before, almost said something about like half of these earlier before but I'm too lazy to say anything more.

Also agree completely on Dusknoir (Literally said this yesterday)

Finally, why are Dragonair, Heatmor, and Simisear even ranked anyways?
I think Heatmor was ranked for being a powerful wallbreaker, but it's outclassed by Mag and Pyroar, the other two should probably get unranked too.
 
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