Lower Tiers ORAS NU Viability Rankings

I think A- rank is way too high for Manectric.

It's in a really awkward speed tier (105) that isn't too great as it's outsped by pertinent offensive threats like Tauros, Archeops, and Swellow. It's really frail so it's difficult to get in safely on non-voltturn builds. Fire coverage is really overrated in this meta considering most special walls that beat electrics aren't necessarily weak to fire in this tier (See Musharna, Miltank, Rhydon, Lanturn, Audino, Mesprit, Sliggoo, Hariyama, etc.). I think that Manectric is simply outclassed by Electrode, which is also immune to Thunder Wave, has a much better ability in Soundproof, which allows it to become a counter to Swellow (which is one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier at the moment). And it has a much better speed tier and can afford to run Modest due to soundproof (it only has like 17 less SpAtk than manectric but much more speed). I also think Raichu is better than Manectric due to the competitive base 110 speed tier and access to multiple sets such as Nasty Plot and Encore, which allow it to support the team. Raichu also has the ability to hit steels like Steelix and Ferroseed with Focus Blast. Even Rotom-S and Rotom are better offensive electric types in this tier with more utility. Because of the fact that Manectric doesn't perform at a high level in the tier compared to these threats (because apparently that's how we're meant to rank things), I think A- is way too high for Manectric. Maybe B- is a better place to fit it.

Well personally I like Manectric and it has been a favourite of mines (which seems alot biased) but, HP Ground can wreck Zebstrika and Electivire if it has Expert Belt or Choice Specs. Also HP Grass can wreck Lanturn thus making Manectric well ready for Rank B. Its kind of like the same since Gen 5
 
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Well personally I like Manectric and it has been a favourite of mines (which seems alot biased) but, HP Ground can wreck Zebstrika and Electivire if it has Expert Belt or Choice Specs. Also HP Grass can wreck Lanturn thus making Manectric well ready for Rank B. Its kind of like the same since Gen 5
I think HP Ground is frankly a pretty subpar option on Manectric. It would rather run HP Grass (beats Rhydon and Quagsire) or HP Water (beats Rhydon and Camerupt). Offensive electric types really aren't something Manectric should be using up its hidden power slot on since it is more important to hit Ground types and Lanturn, and Overheat hits most offensive electric types for more damage than a single Hidden Power Ground (albeit at the cost of a SpA drop).

I've tried out Manectric some, and I've found it to be kind of underwhelming. It's fine, but it's difficult to bring in safely so it has to revenge kill stuff most of the time. Also, it just isn't quite fast enough to revenge a lot of the fast, powerful threats in our tier (Swellow, Archeops, Tauros, Floatzel), and it's often not quite powerful enough to KO things outright and really punish the opponent heavily for just switching out whatever you're trying to revenge. Therefore it isn't great midgame and early game since it's hard to bring in and not devastating if it gets in, and it's too slow to sweep late game unless you've killed the opponent's fast offensive mon(s). It's pretty strong and pretty fast, but when I'm building a team, there are often more potent revenge killers, wallbreakers, and offensive pivots I would rather use. It definitely has its merits with its coverage, speed, and strength, but its speed and power fall just short of making it a prominent metagame threat imo. I would give it B or B- rank.
 
Well personally I like Manectric and it has been a favourite of mines (which seems alot biased) but, HP Ground can wreck Zebstrika and Electivire if it has Expert Belt or Choice Specs. Also HP Grass can wreck Lanturn thus making Manectric well ready for Rank B. Its kind of like the same since Gen 5
It doesn't really matter IF Manectric could take on Zebstrika and Electivire, what matters is if Manectric is outclassed by them. In my opinion, Electivire has a more colorful movepool that allows it to be a more effective wallbreaker
252 SpA Choice Specs Manectric Hidden Power Grass vs. 0 HP / 144 SpD Assault Vest Lanturn: 120-142 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 51.3% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Lanturn Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manectric: 153-180 (54.4 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Manectric really doesn't wreck Lanturn as Lanturn has a few sets that do some work on Manectric.
Not only that but, Manectric doesn't really offer any defensive capabilites like the other electric types, just a nicer special attack. Electrode is immune to sound moves like Chatter and Boomburst, Zebstrika has sap sipper, rotom is immune to normal and fighting moves and has a wisp-hex set as well as levitate, and Lanturn is just obvious. Switcheroo seems kinda like a bad gimmick to me as Rotom has trick and you didn't see him getting so highly known for that before because he could trick on fat pokemon.
So in all honesty, it seems underwhelming and should be B- or C+ rank.
 
Just some quick noms;
Ludicolo A- ---> A Ludicolo is really solid right now, self setting rain is incredibly hard to stop when the rain is set up. It can run focus blast to deal with things like ferroseed. It can also run defensive which is fun.

Regirock C ---> B/B+ Regirock is good again. After banning sceptile it can just start doing what it does best, setting up rocks and using t-wave/toxic. T-wave alone is enough of an advantage over steelix as well as a good fire check.

Gorebyss C+ ---> C Now that we have omastar who outclasses it in almost every way offensivly with a shell smash set. Any niche set it offers like is usually outclassed by Huntail. It still has the niche in the amnesia/iron defense baton pass at the very least which is cool.
 
--> C / C-
So I just wanted to make one quick nomination here for the rise of Vigoroth. Vigoroth actually has surprisingly solid bulk, allowing it to set up on an array of the meta, namely higher ranked Pokemon like Tauros, M-Audino, Kangaskhan, Rhydon, and Steelix, just looking through S and A+. Vigoroth also matches up pretty well against a lot of the current meta, doing a solid job of breaking balance builds with the ability to Taunt bulkier Pokemon like Musharna and Steelix and take hits from a lot of offensive Pokemon. Alongside Facade, it's pretty easy to just clean up teams, especially with a little support from a Pursuit trapper like Skuntank to trap Ghost-types, which isn't a burden on teambuilding at all. The departure of Sawk and Gurdurr have also made Vigoroth a lot better, leaving fewer Fighting-types it has to deal with. Now I'll just throw a set down here that I've been using (shoutouts Kiyo) that's worked well for me, picking me up a win in NU League (replay).
Vigoroth @ Eviolite
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 252 HP / 172 SpD / 84 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Facade
- Taunt
- Slack Off
 

quziel

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Just gonna do a relatively quick nomination:

C+ => B- or B
So, golurk is actually a fair bit better than it was before the scept ban, as it lost a major threat, and now its able to spam its massively powered coverage with ease. It is actually a fairly good check for a fair few mons, as tauros's most used set can't hit it very effectively, it can be a voltturn sponge, taking little damage from either move, and being a very good check to any rhydon, and most lix, sets helps. Of course, the change in the meta hasn't hurt its power, as it can 2hko, or OHKO, most all of the meta with just rocks support, and good prediction.
 

boltsandbombers

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Rises

Ludicolo A- > A
Floatzel B+ -> A
Omastar B+ -> A-
Primeape B -> B+
Carracosta B- -> B
Regirock C -> B-
Slaking Unranked -> D
Manectric Unranked -> B

Drops

Gorebyss C+ -> C

The only nomination which was controversial in the voting was Jumpluff, so some more discussion on that would be helpful.

The Vigoroth and Golurk nominations will be voted on in the next update, feel free to add any input to these two if you have any additional info that might help the council decide.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

B- ---> B/B+
I've noticed Chatot has been getting a bit more noticed recently for many of its perks. First of all it can pull off quite a few sets giving it some versatility (Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Sub+NP) and one of the deadliest possible normal-type STABs in Boomburst giving it incredible power. It also has Chatter, probably the most annoying thing to deal with next to Dynamic Punch Golurk due to the 100% chance to get a confusion. This works extremely well with Specs since you can fish for an extra turn just so you can get the kill. It also has access to Heatwave which is really nice for it and U-turn to pivot out. Not to mention its main competition from Swellow is only due to the speed tier. Other than that Chattot has a much better special attack being even stronger than a fully invested Timid Swellow without any investment. Another nice perk is that Swellow doesn't really have a good special flying move so Chatot also has an advantage there.
 
I'm definitely in favour of Golurk rising to at least B-, preferably B. After using a LO rock polish set in a hyper offense team I can say that most of the teams don't have a reliable answers to ghost / ground dual stab and that set can catch a lot of unprepared teams off guard. Even jolly max attack LO earthquake hits like a truck and a good bunch of pokemon immune to eq are weak to shadow punch (Rotom, Claydol, Mesprit, Mismagius for example). It has access to good coverage moves including elemental punches, heavy slam (the coverage move I chose since it hits mega Audino and easily KO's Swellow after rocks without missing), plethora of fighting moves and stone edge as well as two viable abilities in iron fist and no guard. Offensive sets (LO, band, even AV / colbur to some extent) easily OHKO or 2HKO the majority of common pokemon in the tier and even without any defensive investment revenging Golurk isn't an easy task and basically always requires a strong super effective move from an offensive pokemon. To show Golurk's offensive power, here are some calcs against some top ranked pokemon using the LO rock polish set that I've been using:

252 Atk Life Orb Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 214-253 (73.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Golurk Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Mega Audino: 208-247 (50.7 - 60.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kangaskhan: 246-290 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 242-283 (55.8 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Samurott: 234-277 (70.6 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Golurk Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 247-291 (94.6 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Iron Fist Golurk Shadow Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 208-247 (64.7 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 251-296 (104.1 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Golurk Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hariyama: 308-364 (71.7 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Obviously running adamant or CB would turn a lot of these into OHKO's (especially with hazards) which might be benefitial for certain types of teams. However with hazard support and a bit of prior damage to the opposing team Golurk can sweep late game with RP since it has enough bulk to take some priority hits even without any investment. Here are some examples:

252+ Atk Samurott Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 146-174 (45.6 - 54.3%) -- 48.8% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 127-151 (39.6 - 47.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
252+ Atk Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Golurk: 186-220 (58.1 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not only is Golurk's typing amazing offensively, Ghost / ground typing paired with an okay bulk of 89/80/80 means that Golurk can also provide some defensive support. Having 3 really good immunities in normal / fighting / electric allows you to check the majority of normal and fighting type mons since Golurk is bulky enough to take at least one non-stab hit especially with some HP investment. It's support move pool is a bit limited but having access to stealth rock makes it a pretty solid offensive rocker since Golurk can both set up rocks and spin block. Most of the defoggers are an issue though, but that can be handeled with proper teammates. I definitely feel like Golurk should be used offensively either to late game sweep with RP or wallbreak with CB / adamant LO. Also comparing to other mons in C+ or even B- I feel like Golurk outclasses every single one of them. Golurk to B.


Aside from that I would also like to make a nomination: Mawile from C+ --> B-. This is also based on my experiense with said HO team, on which I used SD three attacks Mawile to great success. Sheer force combined with life orb has geat power to begin with and after SD nothing really wants to switch in on Mawile. Sucker punch deals great damage on faster offensive mons like Swellow, Floatzel and Archeops making checking Mawile pretty difficult especially if you are at +2. Finding the opportunity to set up can be a bit challenging sometimes, but the resistances provided by fairy / steel can give you an opportunity to set up on something like Musharna, Mesprit or Audino (without fire move). Even if you don't find the opportunity to set up, Mawile performs really well against bulkier teams and gets a lot of momentum from switching into pokemon such as Hariyama, Throh, Musharna, Vileplume or Miltank. 55 speed with maximum investment is enough to outspeed the majority of the bulky pokemon of the tier and teams lacking bulky steel / fire type have really hard time switching into Mawile. If you feel like steel types are an issue, sheer force LO fire blast is an option. Once again, some calcs demonstrating the power of Mawile (both boosted and unboosted):

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Mega Audino: 229-273 (55.8 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Mega Audino: 460-541 (112.1 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 165-195 (38.1 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (almost irrelevant since Musharna is just set up fodder)
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 328-386 (75.7 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 146-173 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 290-343 (81.9 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 211-250 (50.9 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Rhydon: 416-491 (100.4 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Fire Blast vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 200-237 (56.8 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Swellow: 140-166 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 151-178 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Even though some of the calcs against really defensive pokemon might feel a bit underwhelming, look at it this way: Mawile pressures defensive pokemon greatly and forces them to either recover giving you an opportunity to set up or try and kill you leaving them weakened for another members of the team to pick them off. And those are calcs against some of the most defensive pokemon of the tier meaning anything not invested in defense is not going to enjoy switching in on Mawile. Usually the most reliable switch to Mawile on stall is quagsire, and as the calcs show, with only a bit of prior damage or few hazards play rough is a 2HKO. Even though Mawile shines mostly against slow, bulky teams that it can pressure greatly, it is not completely useless against offense thanks to sucker punch and really good typing. Fairy / steel gives resistances to common offensive types such as normal, dark and psychic among many others meaning even without any investment you can still take a hit from a good bunch of offensive mons that can outspeed you. The option to run defensive set with intimidate is also there, even though pokemon like Steelix can do that a lot better.

Mawile definitely has some crippling flaws, mainly it's low speed and rather sub par bulk especially on the special side. The prevalence of fire types hurt it a bit but despite these flaws I found Mawile putting in some solid work in every game I played. In my opinion Mawile is better than anything else in the C+ tier (bar Golurk which should be B anyways), which makes it in my opinion worthy of a B- rank. Mawile to B-

Unfortunately I don't have any replays, but if needed to back this up I could definitely get some. I still have the team and I should be decently high on the ladder since I originally used the team featuring these two mons to climb to top-10 of NU, so getting some replays of Golurk / Mawile wrecking stuff shouldn't be too big of a deal ^^
 

B- ---> B/B+
I've noticed Chatot has been getting a bit more noticed recently for many of its perks. First of all it can pull off quite a few sets giving it some versatility (Choice Scarf, Choice Specs, Sub+NP) and one of the deadliest possible normal-type STABs in Boomburst giving it incredible power. It also has Chatter, probably the most annoying thing to deal with next to Dynamic Punch Golurk due to the 100% chance to get a confusion. This works extremely well with Specs since you can fish for an extra turn just so you can get the kill. It also has access to Heatwave which is really nice for it and U-turn to pivot out. Not to mention its main competition from Swellow is only due to the speed tier. Other than that Chattot has a much better special attack being even stronger than a fully invested Timid Swellow without any investment. Another nice perk is that Swellow doesn't really have a good special flying move so Chatot also has an advantage there.
I think the main reason Swellow is picked almost always over Chatot isnt just the amazing speed tier but mostly because of Scrappy.Perhaps if Rotom goes up in usage then chatot might see more usage but due to the overwhelming popularity of Rotom and Missy, Chatot cant spam its STAB as often. Also if not running Scarf Chatot gets revenged by so many threats since the jump in 34 speed points is pretty significant. Also Swellow has the luxury of running Mixed in order to hit things like Yama/Mag hard which isnt super common but it has that option.
 

Deej Dy

Verified Ladder Scurb 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
Yeah the main niche of Specs swellow over Scarf chatot is scrappy. Fun fact, Modest scarf Chatot is faster and stronger than Specs swellow ;p

Also I support Chatot raise, love chatter hax. I'd probably say B rank max though.
 

erisia

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Time for some fresh noms.

C > C-: I have to admit a good part of this nomination is the fact that I've almost never seen it. With Steelix entering the tier and Sliggoo becoming popular as a competing Dragon-type wincon (which also 1v1s Steelix sometimes) people are finding less reasons to use Fraxure despite its on-paper niche of a ridiculously powerful Outrage. It can function as a wallbreaker but the best outright-wall in the tier is immune to its STAB move, and Outrage's very nature makes it better as a cleaner. I'm kind of undecided on this but I want to promote more discussion about this mon so here goes anyways.

/
C > D: Again this nomination isn't based on Hippopotas and Stoutland becoming less deadly but rather that they constitute a gimmick strategy, for which you have to dedicate two slots of your team to pull it off. While Hippopotas makes for a decent wall with Eviolite, realistically, why would you use this over Torterra if you wanted a Ground-type with Stealth Rock and recovery? I guess no Grass-type weaknesses but c'mon; Hippopotas is never ran without a Sand Rush user, take from that what you will. Meanwhile, Stoutland is pretty deadly while Sand is up, but it's completely outclassed by Kangskhan / Tauros outside of it. I think this "we-need-each-other-to-not-be-completely-outclassed" dynamic makes them more suited to D rank than anything else; other weather sweepers such as Exeggutor and Victreebel are at least somewhat unique / self-sufficient.

D > Unranked: Basculin doesn't really have anything to offer over its fellow physical Water-types, with Barbaracle hitting a similar level of power and trading a better immediate Speed tier for the ability to set up and wipe out entire teams, Kabutops also boasting similar power alongside Rapid Spin and more Rock-STAB, and Floatzel's special attacks and speed tier being much more useful than physical Water-type moves in general. It's not horrible but I don't see why you'd ever seriously run this over one of the above three, let alone Samurott.

D > Unranked: The hype has died, please remove this mon. DynamicPunch is a gimmick that Garbodor can check even if it hits itself the whole time, and Machoke has nothing else to offer aside from being a more passive version of Yama that lacks Ice/Fire resists.

Unranked > D: Uh oh it's big nose. This isn't me saying that Probopass has gotten any better so much as me thinking that the current D-rank criteria suit Probopass as a niche mon like Leavanny or Huntail. Some offensive threats like Swellow, Kangaskhan, Stored Power Musharna, etc, become a lot more dangerous with Steelix/Ferroseed being trapped and lured. Probopass has all the tools it needs to remove these threats consistently in Earth Power, Hidden Power Fire, Magnet Rise, and even Taunt if you really want. It's a terrible Rocker / pivot because of how easy it is to exploit its weaknesses but the trapping niche alone is enough to justify D-rank in my opinion.

D > C-: Having seen this thing in action a few times, I think Vigoroth is more than just a gimmick and can actually be a good choice as a combined stallbreaker/wincon. Its speed-tier gives it a good matchup against many defensive mons with Taunt and no/minimal investment, while its bulk and Slack Off gives it a decent matchup against weaker attackers (including Specs Swellow) that can't 2HKO it. There are more consistent wincons and stallbreakers around such as Musharna and Mismagius, but Vigoroth combines both in one slot and can be a good choice for teams that can otherwise function on their own with a 5-Pokemon core outside of these two roles.

D > C-: Again this isn't me saying Metang got better so much as I don't think it's a gimmick and it can be good for teams that require a dedicated response to Ice-types, particularly Jynx, or need a Steel-type / Stealth Rock user that doesn't fold to special attacks as easily as Steelix. It's definitely better than Probopass as a general tank in this regard.

B- > B: Quagsire declined quite a lot over the past few months with the addition of Sceptile, but now that it's gone, the fast physical threats that Quagsire has a better matchup against (mainly Tauros and Archeops) are mostly filling its role over other Grass-types as a fast-and-powerful cleaner. Floatzel isn't as common so Quagsire doesn't mind it coming back into prominence so much. In addition, less things run Hidden Power Grass at the moment due to Quagsire's previous decline in popularity, so this thing is actually more consistent at its job than it was in the pre-Sceptile meta. Meanwhile, its excellent strengths in Unaware and Recover still remain as important as before, making it a staple for defensive teams.

I realise this is a lot of noms but I think generating discussion about lower-ranked mons is important so that they don't just linger on for longer than warranted. I think restructuring D-rank as a place for high-risk somewhat-reward gimmicks is a good idea as it avoids overlap with C-, which should be reserved for more general mons that have a niche but don't 100% rely on it, and makes it a better cut-off point between what's viable and what isn't. Under this system I'd be happier with Arbok in C- too but it just dropped so w/e. Let me know what your thoughts are on this.
 
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Fraxure to C+/B-

I haven't seen it but I have used it, and it can prove pretty good. It has great coverage, making it ridiculous to switch into after a DD, and its bulk becomes more tolerable with an Eviolite. Mold Breaker is also a great ability as well. Its special bulk is still lacking, though, and its speed isn't very good before setting up. It's still a deadly attacker when given the chance to set up, though, so C+/B-
 
So I think a few things need to be updated.

Archeops from A- > A: meta defining, one of the best leads in the tier, second fastest only to Swellow which is not remotely as good. Great offensive check to most offensive mons in the tier with STAB Acrobatics, really hard to switch into barring few, access to great moves like SR, Taunt, Endeavor etc.

Quagsire from B- > A-: Just an excellent wall, Ground/Water is perfect typing with only one uncommon weakness, also one of the few stops to Rhydon + Combusken + Kabutops + Klinklang + Archeops, all of which are very common threats that need an answer. Nothing else stops so many threats in one slot.

Klinklang from C+ > A+: Probably in the top 3 of biggest threats, answers are incredibly limited and setting up and sweeping is ridiculously easy thanks to great typing + bulk. You cannot build a team without a dedicated Klinklang counter like Quagsire/Poliwrath/Steelix so its ranking should reflect that.
 

Finchinator

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Klinklang from C+ > A+: Probably in the top 3 of biggest threats, answers are incredibly limited and setting up and sweeping is ridiculously easy thanks to great typing + bulk. You cannot build a team without a dedicated Klinklang counter like Quagsire/Poliwrath/Steelix so its ranking should reflect that.
Going to have to disagree with such a blatant rise here. I wouldn't necessarily object to a small rise (although I don't think that's even necessary), but I think this is too much. If you look at the current state of the metagame and trends of the tier, it isn't very friendly to Klinklang, at all. Steelix finds itself on many teams and it is, more or less, a full stop to most variants (Magnet Rise isn't very common and isn't even doing all too great of a job at this, either, simply because Klinklang can't do much damage to Steelix) of Klinklang. There are a lot of strong fire types out there (Charizard, Magmortar, Combusken, and even Camerupt) that can threaten Klinklang offensively and occasionally check it defensively, too. Bulky waters are, as always, all over the place and not to king to Klinklang, either. I can go in depth and list plenty of checks and counters, but the overall point is that while Klinklang does get ample opportunity to sign up mid-late game often as as steel type with decent bulk, it doesn't have the ability to sweep without major support and killing of 1-2 things on the opposing teams, which therefore detracts significantly from its viability. I think C+ or B- is where it belongs at the time being!
 

PrinceLucian

Banned deucer.
Hy,ill need to disagree on your post as I really dont see Quagsire being usable on any archetype except stall, so its 1 thing that new players need to understand, yes, it checks things that you listed but there are better options over quagsire that do it better for balanced/offense teams and quagsire is so passive that id barely does anything except what you listed.

Klinklang is another pokemon that you listed about rising, and with steelix in the tier it barely does anything vs a good player with steelix in team that knows to preserve its checks,also as Finch listed there are lot of common things that threaten klinklang and its not gonna setup that easily, and klinklang is basically forced to run magnet rise and give up on one of its moves if you dont have enough things to support it,so that gives its another downside since support for it needs to big a lot bigger than before steelix dropped.
 
So I think a few things need to be updated.

Archeops from A- > A: meta defining, one of the best leads in the tier, second fastest only to Swellow which is not remotely as good. Great offensive check to most offensive mons in the tier with STAB Acrobatics, really hard to switch into barring few, access to great moves like SR, Taunt, Endeavor etc.

Quagsire from B- > A-: Just an excellent wall, Ground/Water is perfect typing with only one uncommon weakness, also one of the few stops to Rhydon + Combusken + Kabutops + Klinklang + Archeops, all of which are very common threats that need an answer. Nothing else stops so many threats in one slot.

Klinklang from C+ > A+: Probably in the top 3 of biggest threats, answers are incredibly limited and setting up and sweeping is ridiculously easy thanks to great typing + bulk. You cannot build a team without a dedicated Klinklang counter like Quagsire/Poliwrath/Steelix so its ranking should reflect that.

Archeops should move from A- to A, definitely. Meta defining, and a real threat to watch out for.

Quagsire from B- to B/B+ AT MOST: A- does not suit this mon. It counters physical setup, not setup. When half the tier is all about special setup, Quagsire has a hard time doing its job.

Klinklang for staying. A+ does not suit this. Period. The meta is not kind to Klinklang. No need for this rise
 

The Goomy

Whitest Mexican Alive
A ---> S

This monster really has such a small number of viable switch ins in the tier and can only be revenged, it puts way too much pressure on opposing teams due to it's decent speed tier, amazing coverage, access to Lovely Kiss, an amazing ability that forces the water types that actually resist its ice STAB to not be able to hit back with theirs, and the fact that it has so many viable sets that can threaten basically every team. Playing around this Pokemon is insane due to the lack of true counters combined with Lovely Kiss/NP. It's not really viable to run 2 counters to Jynx considering how few there are and switching directly into it isn't really viable because your one counter will get put to sleep and then you're fucked anyway. It's just ridiculous how much pressure this mon puts on every play style and the versatility it can provide to a team.
 
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That's right, Jynx needs to rise atleast to A+ ASAP but seems to have a good chance to rise to S, i don't play NU very often but when i do, i use Jynx and have a lot of success and i've lost many battles because the opponent had Jynx, i also watched some NU replays of tournament/high ladder matches and yeah, she can be a threat for many teams since you send in a counter and it falls asleep by lovely kiss, has good coverage, learns NP, focus sash makes her hard to remove from play, LO hits very hard and she can use choice scarf to outrun opponents and can cripple walls with trick so yeah, even having obvious flaws like being very frail and weak to SR she is very good offensively and a higher rank on the VR should reflect that since Jynx is a scary pokemon to face.
 
A- ---> A/A+

Archeops went down in rank fast when Sceptile and Steelix dropped to NU, now that Sceptile got banned Archeops speed tier is relevant again. Now Archeops adapted the tier with running Earth Power for Steelix so that's not a good switch in anymore. Since most flying resists on a team are weak to ground (Rhydon, Steelix or even Regirock), if you predict right you able to either 2 hit KO them or make it that it's not free for them to switch in another time. Not to mention Archeops has sky high attack stat of 140 and what most people forget that it has a very good special attack as well (112), that makes it a great wallbreaker. Archeops deserves therefore to be at least rank A.

4 SpA Archeops Earth Power vs. 244 HP / 128 SpD Steelix: 170-202 (48.2 - 57.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Archeops Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 196 SpD Regirock: 120-142 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Archeops Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 122-144 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- 73.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
4 SpA Archeops Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 178-210 (50.7 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
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Going to have to disagree with such a blatant rise here. I wouldn't necessarily object to a small rise (although I don't think that's even necessary), but I think this is too much. If you look at the current state of the metagame and trends of the tier, it isn't very friendly to Klinklang, at all. Steelix finds itself on many teams and it is, more or less, a full stop to most variants (Magnet Rise isn't very common and isn't even doing all too great of a job at this, either, simply because Klinklang can't do much damage to Steelix) of Klinklang. There are a lot of strong fire types out there (Charizard, Magmortar, Combusken, and even Camerupt) that can threaten Klinklang offensively and occasionally check it defensively, too. Bulky waters are, as always, all over the place and not to king to Klinklang, either. I can go in depth and list plenty of checks and counters, but the overall point is that while Klinklang does get ample opportunity to sign up mid-late game often as as steel type with decent bulk, it doesn't have the ability to sweep without major support and killing of 1-2 things on the opposing teams, which therefore detracts significantly from its viability. I think C+ or B- is where it belongs at the time being!
Hmmm yes maybe A+ is a little too much. That said I stil think C+ is far too low as well for a big threat such as Klinklang. You mentioned Steelix, but I'd argue that mon is ranked A+ for a reason, one of those being a cold stop to one of the biggest threats in the tier (Klinklang). I think in a way it would make sense to have them in similar ranks. Because besides Steelix, you basically have only small checks as options. Those fire-types all get OHKO'd after hazards/minor chip damage by +1 Return, meaning they're shaky checks. Bulky waters; there's Poliwrath and Quagsire (which is one of the reasons I think Quag needs to rise). Everything else get's 2HKO'd while hoping for that one Scald to burn. Yes Klinklang needs support to sweep (from hazards but those are everywhere thanks to Garbodor and Omastar), but all sweepers need support to sweep. I still think it needs at least A rank.

Example:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-364611095

He has two soft checks with Charizard and Hitmonchan's Mach Punch. I know I've won as soon as the Charizard is paralyzed as I can always get damage on it from there. And then I win because Klinklang kills all 5 other members regardless of Scarfed mons, being able to tank one Mach Punch if needed (and other priority moves). One replay doesn't say much but this is usually how it goes with Klinklang if you don't run one of few hard counters like Steelix/Quagsire. So because of that pressure it puts on teambuilding it should be high ranked, not C+.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun
Hmmm yes maybe A+ is a little too much. That said I stil think C+ is far too low as well for a big threat such as Klinklang. You mentioned Steelix, but I'd argue that mon is ranked A+ for a reason, one of those being a cold stop to one of the biggest threats in the tier (Klinklang). I think in a way it would make sense to have them in similar ranks. Because besides Steelix, you basically have only small checks as options. Those fire-types all get OHKO'd after hazards/minor chip damage by +1 Return, meaning they're shaky checks. Bulky waters; there's Poliwrath and Quagsire (which is one of the reasons I think Quag needs to rise). Everything else get's 2HKO'd while hoping for that one Scald to burn. Yes Klinklang needs support to sweep (from hazards but those are everywhere thanks to Garbodor and Omastar), but all sweepers need support to sweep. I still think it needs at least A rank.

Example:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-364611095

He has two soft checks with Charizard and Hitmonchan's Mach Punch. I know I've won as soon as the Charizard is paralyzed as I can always get damage on it from there. And then I win because Klinklang kills all 5 other members regardless of Scarfed mons, being able to tank one Mach Punch if needed (and other priority moves). One replay doesn't say much but this is usually how it goes with Klinklang if you don't run one of few hard counters like Steelix/Quagsire. So because of that pressure it puts on teambuilding it should be high ranked, not C+.
I think you are missing the point here, just because something can sweep when all of its checks and counters are chipped down are gone doesn't mean anything. It's checks and counters are quite common on standard archetypes (Steelix and Yama for example) meaning it is very common for your opponent to respond. Also Klinklang needs quite a bit of boosting depending on the team to effectively sweep since it will only be scoring 2HKOs most of the time. Another thing that holds Klinklang back is that it isn't a Pokemon you look at and say, "wow this fits perfectly or would fit well here" it is more of one of those Pokemon you build around to support. Hazard control in NU is also really good so you can't rely 100% of the time to set up 2-3 layers of spikes. Also you say that Klinklang puts a lot of pressure onto teambuilding, I am going to say this is false because while someone may be incredibly weak to Klinklang and have to swap out members and stuff, most of the time you'll build a team that can naturally handle this Pokemon because of the plentiful amount of checks and answers this tier has to offer. It isn't straining on teambuilding which is why I am going to say it is this low in the first place. I am not thinking in my head, "where is my Klinklang counter?" hardly ever instead I'm prioritizing more powerful threats like Malamar and Jynx.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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Rises:

Jynx A -> A+
Archeops A- > A
Golurk C+ -> B-
Vigoroth D -> C-
Probopass Unranked -> D

Drops:

Fraxure C -> C-
Stoutland / Hippopotas C -> D
Basculin D -> E
Machoke D -> E

The voting for the Mawile, Metang, and Quagsire nominations were all very close so more discussion on those would be appreciated.
 

PrinceLucian

Banned deucer.

B->B
With Sceptile gone, prominent pokemon like tauros/archeops became great again, and regirock having ability to check some of the top tier threats without difficulties makes it a great stealth rocker in this metagame. Its rock typing, titanic defense stat, and a really solid spdef makes it a great physical wall while also providing a good check to Special sweepers like Swellow,vivillon, and fire types like Zard,pyroar,magmortar. It competes with steelix and rhydon for a stealth rock user, but having a greater spdef stat, not having a crippling X4 weakness to grass(which most fire types have as coverage move)like Don,being able to have passive recovery in leftovers, and having access to thunder wave to support team is pretty useful.


B->B
Quagsire is a pokemon that fits best on defensive teams(particularly stall teams) because its a great addition to stall and it does great job there,it hardly finds its use outside of more defensive builds because its somewhat passive, Stall archetypes arent that common from what ive seen but Stall definitely has the good potential in right hands and a lot of people are not prepared for it. Quagsire also walls a lot of threats in this meta,from SD rott/tops/malamar to pokemon like DD rhydon/SD scyther and even the bigger threats like tauros which makes it a good physical wall with nice bulk and Unaware ability.


A>A-
While I can agree why Vivillon is a good sweeper(having the ability to fire off a strong hurricanes without really being afraid to miss since its good ability in compound eyes, having the access to Sleep powder,quiver dances) ,its bad bulk/horrible defensive typing/4x stealth rock weakness and relying on sash is downside of using it, also now that Steelix is one of the best stealth rocker in tier being able to check it pretty decently, lanturn rise in usage also hurts it,and regirock is another thing i can see in future being used more that walls it, a lot of offensive threats like floatzel/archeops/tauros and fire types can check it offensively and priority can pick it off, and Id say it needs more support than it used to have in previous metagames.Its still a great pokemon,dont get me wrong,its really threatening to face but I think its at least nomination worthy.
 
I agree with the vivillon nom a little bit. At first I didn't believe it, so I went to test vivillon on the ladder and pretty much all your points are correct; the rise in faster offensive pokemon means that vivillon needs to setup or it is outsped and killed by tauros, manectric, scyther, swellow, archeops, floatzel and all the other offensive mons that have become very popular. All these pokemon, of which there are a lot, make it hard to use vivillon in general.

Against defensive/bulky teams, i gotta say it's quite strong because none of its checks have recovery. However, that's why I think a drop to A- is justified; it's still good enough to beat bulkier teams, but the meta has changed such that its offensive checks have become more popular, and thus it should drop only one stage.

By that rationale, maybe lilligant should drop to A- as well. It's so similar to vivillon, and they have their pros and cons respective of one another, but you cant argue with the meta. Seeing as lilligant suffers from the same mediocre speed tier and dies to the same pokemon vivillon does, i think it constitutes a drop. Also it struggles much more against bulky teams than vivillon does: it is walled by some grass types, has inaccurate sleep powder and also very weak stab. Also its filler move which is limited to hidden power cant break through most of the things it wants to; xatu, vileplume, magmortar, all of those can take hidden powers.
 

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