Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

[Creator of Chaos]

Honestly I agree with AM that manaphy has gotten worse not better. Stall is less common, offence both bulky and hyper are on the rise 2 archetypes that can overwhelm it and unless you're stupid enough not to have T-wave, a scarfer, or a fast mega then even balance can handle it. Honestly if you lack speed or speed control and your not full stall then you kinda deserve to get 6-0ed. In the same way if you don't have an answer to clef we all know what happens

I still think it's S but it definitely prepared for. Honestly tho I want to ask about gyarados (both forms). Why is it that a Mon so seemingly good on paper is getting such poor usage. Yeah I know about the rock weakness and opportunity cost but the fact it's about to go to uu on usage is there something we've missed?

 

[eldes]

a random question but where does mega sableye, mega charizard x, manaphy, and clefable in terms of the metagame currently after the shadow tag ban since they are the s rank mons of the ou tier

 

[Josh]

in my opinion, mega sab is now only at around an A+ level, it lost its best teammate. anyways, it took a hit in viability. maybe something like S- is more accurate, but that doesn't exist, because its better than most of the A+ stuff but worse than the other S ranks.

zard is p much unaffected, goth didnt bother it.

manaphy can now run items besides shed shell much more freely, and benefits from goth being gone.

clefable was able to be trapped and tricked by goth, so it benefits from it being gone as well.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

I actually had a ton of fun using defensive gyara as a parashuffler on bulky offense. It's a cool blanket check to Mlop, Keldo, and Non-SD exca. It has really solid bulk and can surprise a lot of things expecting Mdos or at least an offensive spread with Twave. But as for the reason why it might be unappealing... well, after using Mgyara extensively I've honesty found that it lacks a lot of firepower that stuff like Mega Charizard possesses. An 80 power STAB isn't exactly a nuke, and it struggles to OHKO Slowbro with an SE Crunch at +1. It's bulk is solid, but you have to do some mind games with between its mega and non-mega forms to achieve a sweep sometimes. I honestly think that the main reason Gyarados isn't being used, though, is the existence of mega altaria, feraligatr, Megazard X, and even Dragonite. People find these options to be a better fit on teams, stronger, faster, or having better coverage and movepools. Before people start bashing me, though, I understand that Mdos is still a good and viable Dragon Dancer in the OU tier and has notable perks over other similar pokemon.

 

[Shuple]

why would u run av rai on semistall when CM does the same thing exept better?

Anyway yea the Kyus are both much more useful in the current meta than they were before despite not directly benefitting from Goth being removed like Manaphy and Togekiss did, with ice being much better typing than it was earier in the meta (I've seen an increase in Mamo too for this same reason+ground being amazing; mamozone is jesus).

I'm actually finding Manaphy to be kinda unhealthy at the moment. It is so hard for both balance and stall to take on consistently, and I'm finding myself more and more reliant on SubRoost Kyurem and Roost+2/3 attacks Kyurem-B to act as a catch-all for it on semistall and balance, respectively. While I don't want to be rash and suggest a suspect test or anything like that, it is definitely something which needs a closer eye kept on it now that the premier thing keeping it in check (Gothitelle) is out of the picture. Between TG+3 attacks and TG+RD, I am finding it more and more problematic to deal with. Chansey balance just loses to TG+RD too, which doesn't help, and same with CM Bliss stall. Energy Ball is definitely more of a must on TG+3 attacks too due to the increase in Gastro and Seismi.

AM had a nice reply above.And I personally think a metagame where players answering their opponents with Revenge Killing and Check is healthier than one answering with only Counters.

If there are counters everywhere there won't be any Revenge Killing,not only because you don't need one (instead of revenge killing,why not have a counter?),but also your opponent can easily block your Revenge Killer in order to preserve the biggest threaten to your team.

To Revenge Kill,you must have at least 1 of these 2 conditions:
1.Your opponents think switching out and preserve the activated Pokemon is meaningless.
For example,1HP and Belly Drumed Salac Chesnaught faced with a Talonflame.
2.Your Revenge Killer is dangerous.
For example,Revenge Killing a Hoopa-U with Sash-Smash Cloyster.

And Revenge Kill is a 1 for 1,which means the offensive playstyle do have some changes.While Check is 1 for 0/0 for 1 depending on you and your opponents' choices.
While Counter is a guaranteed 0 for 1.
IMO,If a Pokemon has hardly no Counters neither Checks,it will be used everywhere like M-kangaskhan and M-Salamence,the metagame will be ruined.
If every Pokemon is easily Countered,everyone tries to Counter everything,the only playstyle left may be Stall,the metagame is ruined too.Kangaskhan/Thundurus/Cresslia/Fire mon on VGC 2015 is really a shame,Ferro/Skarm/M-Sableye/Unaware all over the world sucks too,though it doesn't happen nowadays.

I don't think Manaphy/Hoopa-U unhealthy.
IMO,the more those Pokemons with many Checks and can be easily Revenge Killed while have seldom Counters there are,the more interesting the game is.
Such as Hoopa-U/Manaphy/Many Megas.
I don't want Stall/Balance to die either.IMO a Semi-Stall/Balance team may try Checks/Revenge Killers nowadays.While Hard Stall hardly run Checks/Revenge Killers and have to figure out other solutions.

A Revenge Kill,IMO,since its a 1 for 1,can bring the game to the next stage with a obvious tie called 1 for 1.
A Check,depending on your choices,can leads to different results when rematch,it is not only the Teammaking but also the Player's courage and insight that matters.
I personally think Revenge Killing and Checking make Team-making more creative.

So just try to keep momentum and don't give Manaphy too many free switch in, a balance/stall team may also able to try double switch to minimize Manaphy,or whoever's threat.


I edited my post trying to make it clear.

 

[lowborn]

As a stall player myself, I have found that the recent introduction of Hoopa-U, Mega Diancie, and Contrary Serperior has added just enough grounded threats to the metagame, where a toxic spike stall strategy becomes pretty effective. And the lack of grounded poison types in OU to absorb them only helps this strategy. And for the things that are immune to TSpikes, I give you:

Gliscor Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 244 HP / 200 SpD / 64 Spe
Nature: Careful
Substitute
Protect
Taunt
Knock Off

^Which can outright beat 1v1 (or severely damage) many flying / levitating / steel pokemon which are immune to TSpikes such as: Skarmory, Gengar, Defensive Landorus-T, Lati@s, and Rotom-W (by PP-stalling Hydro-pump). Here's a little showcase of this set's effectiveness: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-312218032

 

[p2]

usage stats are out, but they're kinda boring this time around

weavile is sitting at 8% as opposed to 12% or so a couple of months ago so thats interesting i guess
slowbro dropped off a little from 7% to 5.6%
| 48 | Altaria-Mega | 4.013% | < idk how this is happening

but uu gets gyarados+its mega to play around with so its gonna be fun seeing how that turns out considering that it beats a bunch of common bulky waters like alomomola and empoleon lacking grass knot as well as being a huge pain for mega swampert :0

 

[Martin]

Well UU's borked. I predict three days until quickban.

Anyway, the drop in weave usage is kinda surprising given how many of the offense teams it thrives v.s. are running around atm. Maybe if there was an increase in Man and Lop usage I could understand (too lazy to check), but it seems kinda weird considering that its two conditions for being amazing are in place at the same time (high rate of offense and a 4x ice weak mon acting as the primary backbone on offensive teams).

Alt I kinda understand cause it is kinda falling from glory atm with it being kinda difficult to justify over other megas in the current meta. It'll prolly start getting used again as soon as a major meta shift happens tho so I wouldn't get too concerned with it.

 

[bludz]

I've been talking about a metagame shifting toward offense for a while now and think that it's only continuing to do so.

Essentially if you look at a breakdown of playstyles there is a pretty strong correlation to matchup dependencies. Assuming well built teams I think the following holds true (when i reference matchup i am referring to singular threat matchups and not overall team matchups):

Stall is the most matchup dependent style - it covers most threats very well but the few that it does not are a very difficult matchup.

Balance has similar problems although it trends toward a few more weaknesses per team with each weakness being less difficult to deal with. There is slightly more offensive pressure and counterplay.

Offense is weak to the most threats, but these weaknesses are not as big as for the other two styles. The reason is that defensive checks can be overloaded and offensive ones can be pressured by hazards or revenge killed more easily. Because of the amount of pressure offense can apply if properly played, each matchup in terms of singular threats (overall team matchups are more complex) is less problematic than for bulkier playstyles.

Sort of a viability thing but because of this shift to offense, most of the top threats are kind of similarly threatening and none really stand out that much among the rest. I suppose we still have Clefable in an obvious S rank capacity (while ZardX and Sableye are less obvious imo) but even still it has become less dominant in my eyes. So yeah in the current metagame I don't see any threats as truly standout compared to others and think this is due to how offensive the metagame has become. Even typical balance builds these days often feature a Latios or Scarf Tar and rarely do you see stuff like Hippo/Clef/MZor/Talon/Starmie/Grass type because of how overwhelmed slow balance can be by so many offensive pokemon these days.

Tldr I think offense is king and its continuing in that direction. Because of this, few threats stand out above the rest

 

[Machi]

Well UU's borked. I predict three days until quickban.

Anyway, the drop in weave usage is kinda surprising given how many of the offense teams it thrives v.s. are running around atm. Maybe if there was an increase in Man and Lop usage I could understand (too lazy to check), but it seems kinda weird considering that its two conditions for being amazing are in place at the same time (high rate of offense and a 4x ice weak mon acting as the primary backbone on offensive teams).

Alt I kinda understand cause it is kinda falling from glory atm with it being kinda difficult to justify over other megas in the current meta. It'll prolly start getting used again as soon as a major meta shift happens tho so I wouldn't get too concerned with it.

It was already banned in the hey day, before the quick rises, so no issues if ever it does drop -- at best it could be retested.

Otherwise, its not very difficult to see why MAlt is dropping given that it's better sets are very set-up dependent which is problematic because MAlt's stats are not exactly high, so MAlt more often than not needs more than one boost to really be in the clear. This is where the problem arises because MAlt doesn't get quite as much mileage from one DD and often needs 2 or so, netting one boost is hard enough especially in a more offensive metagame.

Whereas other set-up sweepers like Rock Polish MDiancie or Charizard-X or Manaphy are able to boost much quicker and clean up after a single boost, or have access to set-up moves that allow them to quickly snowball. More importantly, even without a boost, outside of Manaphy (though does have scald burn hax), other set-up sweepers like MDiancie/Chari-X/Keldeo have much better stats and are still more of an immediate threat.

Only thing MAlt does have over these other set-up sweepers is a much better defensive typing but given the shift in the metagame towards offense it's not exactly going to be an easy task, especially with all the wall breakers that easily out-speed and run amok.

 

[Me and ur mom]

Is Altaria really that bad rn it's #48 in usage?? Seems like just yesterday it was the Lando-I days and it was the king of OU.

 

[MrAldo]

Thats how just metagame trends work. People see "x" mon as the #1 threat then people start preparing for said threat causing its overall effectiveness to diminish. On the Lando-I days, the usage of steel types was hindered by the earth genie presence causing mega altaria to thrive in said metagame.

Now with steel being really prevalents on many builds, scarf jirachi around on many offensive builds, people using amoonguss cause it is viable and mega altaria struggling to setup without a magnezone obviously will cause its usage to decrease. Thats just how the metagame dynamics work. Who knows, mega altaria is still really good, maybe he will become a gigantic threat later on.

 

[MANNAT]

Hey guys, how good do you thing bulky offense is rn? I haven't tried building it in forever and I never seem to end up making BO teams. Any sample cores and explanations would be pretty nice. I do have this team laying around from ages ago, but im not really sure how good it is, and It's only been tested in lower ladder anyways: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-313980688

 

[OverlordDerp]

Hey guys, how good do you thing bulky offense is rn? I haven't tried building it in forever and I never seem to end up making BO teams. Any sample cores and explanations would be pretty nice. I do have this team laying around from ages ago, but im not really sure how good it is, and It's only been tested in lower ladder anyways: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-313980688

I've noticed that in the bulky offense vs offense/HO matchup, you often find yourself in the position where you can't really 1v1 certain threats or type-spam cores lest you be overloaded (i.e. a lot of the same problems balance teams have nowadays). Since having more than one 'defensive' check to every HO mainstay is a completely unrealistic precedent, I tend to play the lure game far more often. Also, bluffing your sets somehow seems more important when playing bulky offense than any other archetype (although it's still important in those too). Things like Ice Fang on SD Gliscor or more esoteric Heatran sets are some of the things you can expect to see on more recent bulky offense teams.

Things like RestTalk Keldeo have gotten a bump in popularity lately, which lends itself well to the archetype, and even more HO oriented things like Double Dance/RP Lando-T make pretty common appearances in BO.

Personally, I'd liken playing BO to playing the momentum game on two levels; you have momentum when you predict a switch and hold the initiative, and you also have momentum when you don't have to reveal your lure options as readily. This seems obvious to basically anyone who knows how to use a lure move, but I'd argue that it's more important in BO than any other archetype. Overall, I'd say BO isn't as strong a playstyle anymore due to the fact that it's become harder to keep your momentum going when HO can do the same with type-spam and incur far less repercussions for it. It's still a very strong archetype, it's just that it's more skill- and lure-reliant now, which inevitably turns people away.

 

[56k]

How do people feel about spin blocking nowadays?

I posted a RMT team a while back that had two ghosts on the team as well as a toxic spiker. It actually seemed to have been really effective for me personally. A LOT of hyper offense teams rely on LO starmie or on excadrill to either git the spin off or severely punish any ghost for switching in. They hit awfully hard with their STABs and coverage. That's why I used TWO ghosts, so I didn't always have to predict perfectly. It worked out well actually. So many HO teams with a pinsir or charizard or whatever are really relying on spinners instead of a defogger. But obviously there are still plenty of HO teams that use a lati for defog.

The Goomy posted a completely different team with spikes/tspikes, a misdreavus for spin blocking, and a bisharp. This type of team goes a step further and includes defiant user. I have also seen teams with a different take on it, using milotic as the competitive user instead of a bisharp, and it actually can be dangerous in its own right.

As an added note, when I decide to use defog, I always use fast togekiss with aura sphere as my defogger, so I don't lose a pokemon to bisharp immediately after removing hazards.

What do you all think? Is carrying defensive spinblockers like sableye, jellicent, cofagrius, misdreavus, OR offensive ones like gengar and chandelure part of your game plan?

I personally try to incorporate at least 1 ghost in most of my teams nowadays, sometimes even 2, and I cackle like a mad man when I see charizard + spinner on opponent's side.

 

[AM]

How do people feel about spin blocking nowadays?

I posted a RMT team a while back that had two ghosts on the team as well as a toxic spiker. It actually seemed to have been really effective for me personally. A LOT of hyper offense teams rely on LO starmie or on excadrill to either git the spin off or severely punish any ghost for switching in. They hit awfully hard with their STABs and coverage. That's why I used TWO ghosts, so I didn't always have to predict perfectly. It worked out well actually. So many HO teams with a pinsir or charizard or whatever are really relying on spinners instead of a defogger. But obviously there are still plenty of HO teams that use a lati for defog.

The Goomy posted a completely different team with spikes/tspikes, a misdreavus for spin blocking, and a bisharp. This type of team goes a step further and includes defiant user. I have also seen teams with a different take on it, using milotic as the competitive user instead of a bisharp, and it actually can be dangerous in its own right.

As an added note, when I decide to use defog, I always use fast togekiss with aura sphere as my defogger, so I don't lose a pokemon to bisharp immediately after removing hazards.

What do you all think? Is carrying defensive spinblockers like sableye, jellicent, cofagrius, misdreavus, OR offensive ones like gengar and chandelure part of your game plan?

I personally try to incorporate at least 1 ghost in most of my teams nowadays, sometimes even 2, and I cackle like a mad man when I see charizard + spinner on opponent's side.

I think this is more allocated to defensive teams honestly, the spinblock thing. Like look at all the stuff you mentioned and realized most of those dont have the luxury of blocking rapid spinners and lol at Gengar being classified as any sort of spinblocker. I have no comment on the Goomy team I think it's cute but it's kind of hard to take seriously. Fun looking though.

 

[Sablenite]

If your doing Hazard Stack nowadays I feel like the team has to be a defensive or balanced team consisting of: Rapid Spinner, Spin Blocker, Bisharp, Magic Bouncer, Hazards, Phazer this kinda makes it a very limited playstyle based on what it can counter as it has to be able to break past M-Sableye.

Me, personally I'm working on a (BulkySpin)Starmie/(Sub-Roost)Kyuerm/(AV)Bisharp/M-Diancie/Cofagrius/ and Celebi as a team, although I might consider running a Hippowdon over Celebi's spot, or run Dragon Tail on Kyuerm, but hey its just starting the testing process

Fist Replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-314779422

 

[Kav]

gengar can still make for a spinblocker on hyper offense when you absolutely need hazards for some final play, but its pretty much a sack. Not really traditional spinblocking though admittedly; sabeleyes the only one that can really fit there.

 

[Martin]

I mean, jelly+gourgeist is a pretty fun double ghost core that ive used once or twice for fat teams that cant carry sab. Honestly though as far as hazard protection goes carrying 2 ghosts is kinda limiting due to the fact that the teams that they tend to protect hazards for (spikes stacking teams) tend to necessitate or strongly encourage the use of bisharp to deter defog, leaving only 2 teamslots left. It is better in tiers which dont carry as much defog as they do spin.

I disagree with what sablenite's saying tho, as i personally have lots of success with heavily offensive spikes teams which just use bish+a buttload of offensive pressure to keep them on the field. Klefki+Bish VoltTurn is a really freaking powerful build that really punishes a large number of builds due to how easily it can both protect and re-lay hazards in conjunction eith forcing loads of switches which it capitalises on easily.

 

[bluegrass]

I personally think Spike stacking is one of the most viable play styles in the tier, mostly because it fits in well with Offensive teams. Getting that extra damage from Spikes helps a lot of sweepers/cleaners turn 3HKOs and 2HKOs into 2HKOs and 1HKOs respectively. Of course Bisharp is almost mandatory on those teams, but it's not that much of a hindrance when he's such a good mon. Spin blocking is sort of a problem, since the only ghost that really fits in on offensive teams is Gengar, and he's easily KOed by the two most common spinners, Starmie and Excadrill. The best way to circumvent this is by keeping up offensive pressure on your opponent, limiting his chance to click rapid spin. Klefki is a really good spiker (probably the best) for offense since he's pretty durable, giving him the chance to set up spikes again if they do get removed.

Gourgeist and Cofagrigus soak up too much momentum from offensive teams to warrant a team slot, and Mega Sableye has the same flaw, though not as much, while also taking a mega slot from something with more immediate power. Speedy Jelly w/Taunt is the only other ghost type that fits in on offense, but it's a pretty niche mon to begin with. Someone posted a team on the Viability rankings with Misdreaveus, and while it looked pretty cool, it is definitely a team specific mon. Not giving your opponent a chance to use rapid spin is pretty much the only way to stop rapid spin for offensive teams. Lol the cupboard is so bare for Offensive Ghost type mons that I once tried out Choice Band Trevenant* on a spike stacking team.

*It was shit

 

[Martin]

Misdreavus doesnt achieve its aim in spinblocking anyway as it just flat-out loses to Starmie if it comes in on Hydro.

A kinda cool spinblocker is gourgeist-s as it doesnt sap momentum like xl, but it has a lot of the same issues as misdreavus in regards to it being unable to come in on psychic or beam that make it mostly crappy/niche as hell.

ScarfGar kinda works in that it can catch starmie off-guard if it comes in on spin, although it dies to literally any other move. Its prolly ur best bet for "spinblocker" on super offensive teams for its ability to surprise it, and eventhen calling it a spinblocker is tenuous at best.

 

[56k]

I think the idea of double ghost is only appropriate for sablenite teams because at that point it's clear that your entire strategy revolves around hazard control. Sableye is also basically the only ghost that doesn't immediately die to dark spam. The archetype truly is viable. Sab+Jelly, Sab+Cofag, Sab+Gengar all have their own particular strengths and weaknesses. Neither starmie nor drill will ever spin if you play correctly. However it pigeonholes you into a certain kind of slow team and it can be frustrating to play against fast-ish wallbreakers like zard, manaphy, kyurem-b, pinsir, etc. On the other hand, you can win perfectly fine against those aforementioned mons if they're getting hit by rocks and tspikes. Overall I'm just curious how invested other players are in their hazard control. I think most people prefer just attacking directly with strong pokemon instead of playing indirectly with hazards, status, and weather. But I personally really enjoy bringing at least a spinblocker and/or a defiant/competitive on nearly every team.

 

[Shuple]

If I wanted an Scarf ground I'd just use Lando or Garchomp since both have better speed tiers and Lando has a lot of options, it can boom, it gets knock off, stone edge (rock slide on excadrill lmao), U-Turn and even superpower.

Garchomp revenge kills relevant stuff like +1 Zard X, Dragonite, and its not bopped by priority mach punch or aqua jet.

People seems to use scarf drill for fast spin but somehow they can't fit the already splashable Starmie.

Excadrill's only good set is the Sand Rush set, FatDrill is still frail anf super easy to worn down.

Well I use Scarfed Excadrill these days,with a Core of Tornadus-T/Azumarill/Tank Chomp.
IMO,Scarfdrill is just as good a Ground-Type Scarf-Using Pokemon,if not better,as Landorus-T and Garchomp thanks to the Mold Breaker,which allows it to hit the Levitate Pokemons,such as Rotom-W,Gengar,and Latios.
It really helps to reduce the pressure of prediction and make it easier to engage a late-game sweep.

Besides,Excadrill has 8 resistances,2 immunes.Comparing with it,Landorus-T has only 3 resistances and 2 immunes and Garchomp has 3 resistances and 1 immune.The resistances helps Excadrill to get over the shortage on its physically defensive (compared with that two),and provides more switch-ins on the special side than Landorus-T and Garchomp.

Scarf Landorus-T has only one STAB move Earthquake,Scarf Chomp has two but the Dragon-Type move has a immune target:Fairy-Type.Excadrill has a less-immuned Earthquake and a non-immuned Iron Head (though many Hi-Usage 4x resistances),which,IMO,is a better Type Combination for Choice Items.A Steel-Type STAB move,since there are only 2 Types being super effective against the Fairy,is precious.

Then,add the Rapid Spin.Excadrill uses it infrequently,once a game on average,and after the opposing hazard setter is out.

Something can be done by Scarf Mold Breaker Excadrill but not Scarf Landorus-T/Chomp:
Predicting a Volt Switch,switching into a Rotom-W,killing with an Earthquake,which means being a Rotom-W check;
Being a hard-check against CM/T-wave Clefable;
Being a hard-check against CM Raikou;
Surviving a LO Draco Meteor from Latios and killing with 2 Earthquake/Iron Head.

Though there are still things Excadrill can't while Landorus-T can like eating a High Jump Kick/Close Combat,I like Excadrill more than Landorus-T or Garchomp as a Scarfrunner myself.


At the first,I had a 0/252/0/0/252/4/Jolly spread,which means a 351 speed after Scarf-boost,outspeed the 110 Maxspeed.
And I think,why not outspeed 135 Maxspeed?Mega Manectric and Mega Lopunny can be deadly late-game sweeper.So it becomes a 0/252/0/0/116/140 Jolly,can as fast as 406 outspeed 405,the 135 Maxspeed.
And...Mega Alakazam?Okay,there comes the 0/252/0/0/36/220 Jolly,439 > 438,the 150 Maxspeed.
Wait,is the 36 SpD EVs really sounds like a joke,let's just adjust it to the Speed,for the sake of a opposing Scarf Excadrill......
Then it becomes like this:

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Slide


I lost almost a quarter of the special bulkie,but luckily it didn't leads to a sudden kill by something I knew.And I have Fairy mons to eat Draco so my Excadrill doesn't need to switch in to Latios everytime.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 143-168 (39.6 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Excadrill: 195-230 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Martin]

I'm not overly keen on either scarfdrill or fatdrill tbh. I just find scarfdrill to be disappointingly weak while fatdrill needs to act as a blanket check to more things than it is able to stomach due to its susceptibility to wisp (seriously exca is a literal wisp magnet) and lack of recovery in literally any form beyond leftovers meaning that it gets worn down even more easily than Washtom (aka the "I'm getting worn down too quickly" king). I just don't like how in order to use Mold Breaker drill effectively you either have to sacrifice the ability to take on offense with even remote consistency (SpD drill) or the ability to switch moves (ScarfDrill) in addition to the huge drop in power due to the loss of LO. I mean seriously, if I wanted a Rapid Spin user I'd go to Starmie probably multiple times before I'd even consider using Rapid Spin Exca.

Like Erai said, why use ScarfDrill when you can just use Lando-T or Garchomp - who are both faster (and, in the case of the former, sronger) than it? Sure you could use Spin+Mold Breaker as your reasoning, but being locked into Rapid Spin is literally asking to be set up on and as soon as your opponent sees Mold Breaker they aren't gonna try and use WashTom or Bronzong as their Exca stop until they know you're locked into something, and both ground and steel are very easy types to take advantage of being locked into - especially when your only other attacks have 75 BP and 20 BP, respectively, without STAB or an item to back them up. At least ScarfChomp is able to beat +1 Zard X and ScarfRachi while being able to chip at contact users upon switch-in with Rough Skin and at least Scarf Lando-T can retain momentum with U-turn, spread Intimidates and not be ultra one-dimensional like Exca is.

As for bulky, while its cool to be able to toxic and lay rocks on Mega Sableye and all, when I reach a point where I want that I just start to question why I'm trying to toxic it instead of 2HKOing it with STAB LO EQ on switch-in and why I'm not just using Clefable (which isn't as easy to pressure due to access to Softboiled) as my rocker at that point. Why try to act as a RKer with Mold Breaker when you lose out on the KOs that make the LO set actually scary (such as the ability to deal 59% min to Mega Sableye as opposed to failing to ever 2HKO it). Honestly if you need to use fatdrill or scarfdrill to fill a role on you're team then my estimate is that there is probably around a 9/10 chance that the team has a fundamental flaw and needs re-thinking.

 

[Shuple]

I'm not overly keen on either scarfdrill or fatdrill tbh. I just find scarfdrill to be disappointingly weak while fatdrill needs to act as a blanket check to more things than it is able to stomach due to its susceptibility to wisp (seriously exca is a literal wisp magnet) and lack of recovery in literally any form beyond leftovers meaning that it gets worn down even more easily than Washtom (aka the "I'm getting worn down too quickly" king). I just don't like how in order to use Mold Breaker drill effectively you either have to sacrifice the ability to take on offense with even remote consistency (SpD drill) or the ability to switch moves (ScarfDrill) in addition to the huge drop in power due to the loss of LO. I mean seriously, if I wanted a Rapid Spin user I'd go to Starmie probably multiple times before I'd even consider using Rapid Spin Exca.

Like Erai said, why use ScarfDrill when you can just use Lando-T or Garchomp - who are both faster (and, in the case of the former, sronger) than it? Sure you could use Spin+Mold Breaker as your reasoning, but being locked into Rapid Spin is literally asking to be set up on and as soon as your opponent sees Mold Breaker they aren't gonna try and use WashTom or Bronzong as their Exca stop until they know you're locked into something, and both ground and steel are very easy types to take advantage of being locked into - especially when your only other attacks have 75 BP and 20 BP, respectively, without STAB or an item to back them up. At least ScarfChomp is able to beat +1 Zard X and ScarfRachi while being able to chip at contact users upon switch-in with Rough Skin and at least Scarf Lando-T can retain momentum with U-turn, spread Intimidates and not be ultra one-dimensional like Exca is.

As for bulky, while its cool to be able to toxic and lay rocks on Mega Sableye and all, when I reach a point where I want that I just start to question why I'm trying to toxic it instead of 2HKOing it with STAB LO EQ on switch-in and why I'm not just using Clefable (which isn't as easy to pressure due to access to Softboiled) as my rocker at that point. Why try to act as a RKer with Mold Breaker when you lose out on the KOs that make the LO set actually scary (such as the ability to deal 59% min to Mega Sableye as opposed to failing to ever 2HKO it). Honestly if you need to use fatdrill or scarfdrill to fill a role on you're team then my estimate is that there is probably around a 9/10 chance that the team has a fundamental flaw and needs re-thinking.

Thanks for your statements.It is important that a Scarfed Chomp can check +1 Zard X,I hadn't noticed that.