Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

[Random Passerby]

B

Anyway since its pretty much agreed that clef and T-wave aren't broken. I figure I change the topic. With spike stacking growing in popularity what is everyone's thoughts on cores using multiple magic guard users on a team? What benefits do having multiple Magic guard users bring?

Double Magic Guard pretty much means Clef + Reuni as a bulky balance core. I've used it myself earlier in the meta but I find it really annoying that from the get-go, you have a pretty hard time against Offense. Things like Serperior, Bisharp, Mega Scizor, Specs Volcanion, SD Talonflame and Band Ttar basically forces you to take a lot of pressure. It's not so hot against fat teams either as Taunt from the likes of Mew, Talonflame or Heatran shut the core down. Maybe I'm using it wrong but I find it to be pretty match-up reliant and not consistent.

EDIT: Removed Mega Medicham from the threats list.

 

[Escavalier]

Double Magic Guard pretty much means Clef + Reuni as a bulky balance core. I've used it myself earlier in the meta but I find it really annoying that from the get-go, you have a pretty hard time against Offense. Things like Serperior, Bisharp, Mega Medicham, Mega Scizor, Specs Volcanion, SD Talonflame and Band Ttar basically forces you to take a lot of pressure. It's not so hot against fat teams either as Taunt from the likes of Mew, Talonflame or Heatran shut the core down. Maybe I'm using it wrong but I find it to be pretty match-up reliant and not consistent.

half of these mons cant even touch reuniclus

 

[Punchshroom]

Double Magic Guard pretty much means Clef + Reuni as a bulky balance core. I've used it myself earlier in the meta but I find it really annoying that from the get-go, you have a pretty hard time against Offense. Things like Serperior, Bisharp, Mega Medicham, Mega Scizor, Specs Volcanion, SD Talonflame and Band Ttar basically forces you to take a lot of pressure. It's not so hot against fat teams either as Taunt from the likes of Mew, Talonflame or Heatran shut the core down. Maybe I'm using it wrong but I find it to be pretty match-up reliant and not consistent.

The rest of the mons may indeed be a problem, but how does Mega Medicham pressure this core; isn't Reuniclus like one of the hardest Mega Medicham counters to exist? Some other Mega like Mega Pinsir, Taunt Mega Gardevoir, and even a Mega Metagross who got a lucky +1 (and Mega Beedrill *cough*) would pressure this core far more than MegaCham will.

Random Passerby pretty sure CM Reunis are physically defensive, and take only ~36-42% from HJK. Considering Reuni's immunity to passive damage, getting the extra chip damage on Reuni before MCham hits the field won't be easy.

 

[Random Passerby]

half of these mons cant even touch reuniclus

???
I don't get your point. These numbers aren't exactly what I'd call "can't touch". Except maybe Talonflame and Mega Medi, Reuni is 2HKOed.

Calculations

252+ SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Reuniclus: 318-375 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 326-386 (76.8 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 367-432 (86.5 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 402-474 (94.8 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Reuniclus: 411-485 (96.9 - 114.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 156-184 (36.7 - 43.3%) -- 99.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (OK, I'll give you this)
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 177-208 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (looks not threatening? This means a little prior damage and Reuni is 2HKOed )
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 217-256 (51.1 - 60.3%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The rest of the mons may indeed be a problem, but how does Mega Medicham pressure this core; isn't Reuniclus like one of the hardest Mega Medicham counters to exist? Some other Mega like Pinsir, Taunt Gardevoir, and even a Metagross who got a lucky +1 (and Mega Beedrill *cough*) would pressure this core far more than MegaCham will.

High Jump Kick does like 45% which means Reun gets 2HKOed with just a little prior damage. It also needs to run Shadow Ball to win (which means it loses 100% against Dark-types) ; bad news with Bisharp and Band Ttar around.

 

[SketchUp]

High Jump Kick does like 45% which means Reun gets 2HKOed with just a little prior damage. It also needs to run Shadow Ball to win (which means it loses 100% against Dark-types) ; bad news with Bisharp and Band Ttar around.

Psyshock is a 2HKO so you don't need Shadow Ball to beat Medicham. Also, HJK being a 3HKO means that you can Calm Mind every few turns and OHKO it at +2 with Psyshock

 

[Martin]

So its been about 3 weeks since Hoopa-U got the ban hammer, so I thought I'd see what the general opinion of the metagame at this stage is with a strawpoll. I'm just kinda interested to see what people's concensus is and hoped it might spark a bit of discussion over it. Ftr I'm not endorsing anything if its a generally negative response, as I personally think the idea of letting this thing loose again would be a terrible idea.

Personally I prefer the metagame now. Team diversity is much higher than it was before, defensive and balanced teams have a much easier time due to the fact that there isn't any 1 Pokémon which can beat almost the entirity of their playstyles with one set while putting strict requirements onto builds and having little-to-no counterplay, and due to the fact that there are just more builds that are able to thrive with that monster out of the picture. The team variety just makes the meta more fun to play and makes experimentation more rewarding.

I think Volcanion has also played its part in this, as it has just opened up a load of options in teambuilding and allows teams to experiment a lot more due to its amazing ability to just fill holes while alleviating pressure from very restrictive stuff like Azumarill and Discouraging the use of Scald, among other things. Just like with the removal of Hoopa, Volcanion has made experimenting much more rewarding while also increasing the viability of things that it pairs well with (e.g. Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Keldeo, Heatran, rain etc.) as well as a lot of 'mons which act as consistent or at least semi-consistent stops to it--many of which are un-explored (e.g. Goodra, Jellicent, (Mega) Latias, Dragonite etc.).

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I thought there was a rule against strawpolls? It's going to be outdated within a month anyways because the metagame changes so quickly. Like, here's how it's going to go

• Volcanion is released
• A sharp drop in usage for grass, water, fire, ground, rock, bug ect
• Volcanion peaks in usage
• Pokemon who dropped in usage rise because they're now less prepared for
• Usage of pokemon who beat said types, but don't lose to Volcanion counters rise
• Volcanion's usage decline

That's what's going to happen. After that there's a sharp rise in Pursuit usage, fight rise ect.

 

[Seth_]

I don't like current metagame at all. Too much balance teams where wincon is putting paralysis on all your 6 mons. Too much team wchicj are just 5 fat mons and scarf tar. Too much bulky set up sweepers. Everythin have to run taunt right now? Too much chansey (I hatr this mon)


And people say that creative sets ate nice. Well, I did not miss thing like dd zard y, cm klefki or oblivious bro. And those new mons like jellicent and goodra aren't good sign for me. They lost many matchu-ups, but are good agains one or two threads so people pack them. Overall game is very unenjoyable for me and I consider quiting it for another month or two.

Maybe we should run Lando-I unban suspect test? I don't beleve this would be broken right now. People are usuing it's acutal counters like spdef skarm, mega lati, vest tangrowth. Amoonguss, spdef gliscor.

 

[HailFall]

Maybe we should run Lando-I unban suspect test? I don't beleve this would be broken right now. People are usuing it's acutal counters like spdef skarm, mega lati, vest tangrowth. Amoonguss, spdef gliscor.

This is actually a pretty interesting prospect. I never played lando-i meta so take this with a grain of salt, but I definitely hear what you're saying. Having a good balance breaker sounds really nice right now.

 

[SketchUp]

I assume you weren't around when the suspect happened because you're talking about Gliscor, Tangrowth and Skarmory being counters. Lando-I was able to adjust to almost every single counter because the only moveslot it needed was Earth Power. When SpD Gliscor as a 'counter' became popular, people started running HP Ice and the same thing was the case with Rock Slide for Torn-T / Zard-Y, Sludge Wave and Focus Blast. Even in a metagame filled with good checks like Skarm, Lati, and Chansey, Landorus was just too ridiculous.

 

[bludz]

No Landorus-I is retardedly broken and half the things listed as counters really aren't.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 200-237 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 270-320 (62.5 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 317-374 (90 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Even entertaining this thought is silly. Landorus-I has outrageous power:

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 274-324 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

It's fast for a wallbreaker, has excellent set up moves in CM and RP, can even run moves like Knock Off and Stealth Rock. It's not susceptible to being worn down due to no LO recoil on most moves, doesn't take damage from Spikes, and can basically pick and choose what beats it.

Edit: BTW this is not the place to bring up potential suspects anyway, so this discussion needs to end actually.

From the OP: No discussing smogon's tiering methods, Pokemon you think they should suspect or anything else on those lines

any more posts that dont follow this rule are getting deleted

 

[57west]

I don't like current metagame at all. Too much balance teams where wincon is putting paralysis on all your 6 mons. Too much team wchicj are just 5 fat mons and scarf tar. Too much bulky set up sweepers. Everythin have to run taunt right now? Too much chansey (I hatr this mon)


And people say that creative sets ate nice. Well, I did not miss thing like dd zard y, cm klefki or oblivious bro. And those new mons like jellicent and goodra aren't good sign for me. They lost many matchu-ups, but are good agains one or two threads so people pack them. Overall game is very unenjoyable for me and I consider quiting it for another month or two.

Maybe we should run Lando-I unban suspect test? I don't beleve this would be broken right now. People are usuing it's acutal counters like spdef skarm, mega lati, vest tangrowth. Amoonguss, spdef gliscor.

I think this is a little hyperbolic, Balance is good right now yes but there isnt nearly that much of a bias towards bulky teams as people make out, Taunt has really low opportunity cost on most teams imo, and things like Goodra and Jellicent are flavors of the moment, people probably wont be running volcanion as much in a month.
And on Lando-I resuspect I dont have much experience with it, some folks seem really adamant against it, but i havent really seen it used much

 

[Seth_]

I think this is a little hyperbolic, Balance is good right now yes but there isnt nearly that much of a bias towards bulky teams as people make out, Taunt has really low opportunity cost on most teams imo, and things like Goodra and Jellicent are flavors of the moment, people probably wont be running volcanion as much in a month.
And on Lando-I resuspect I dont have much experience with it, some folks seem really adamant against it, but i havent really seen it used much

This is my experience from 2h tour on showdown when I droped from 1600 to 1400. You don't agree, well, that's your oppinion.

However it is fact that wr have now WAY MORE fat teams and I bet we'll see this trend in stats.

OU right now resembles me everything I did not liked about BattleSpotSingles. Gimicky sets and fat mons. I don't enjoy this game anymore.

 

[Firebird101]

Fat teams aren't bad as long as you bring some form of offense. Besides, full stall has too many problems even with Hoopa-U gone that I rarely feel inclined to forfeit offense for more passive defense. Bulky offense and balance teams always carry hole-punchers and Volcanion is another fresh addition to the tier that stall has to worry about so it's not like Hoopa is gonna be sorely missed, even if you hate stall. Plus, if you have a weakness to entire playstyle I've always found it dumb to get away with slapping a band-aid mon to ohko half the tier on their own.
I've just been spamming a simple Band TTar and Specs Volc as my stall breaking core and most stall teams (aka the non-creative ones) tend to crumble quickly. I've always found the best meta's being the ones who center themselves around "not frail and not passive" teams, as it makes your team much more adaptable wether you want to play the game aggressively or defensively while with HO and stall you always have to play it one way. Plus, I've just found those play-styles to be far more matchup based than balance so I welcome a metagame that discourages ultra aggressive and ultra passive playstyles ^_^

 

[Agent Gibbs]

So what are people's thoughts on Mamoswine right now? From my limited observation, I've noticed that a lot of balanced teams are just slapping on something along the lines of Hippowdon, Garchomp, Landorus-T, or Tangrowth as their general answer to physical threats, none of which match up well against Mamoswine. Even things like Rotom-W and Slowbro can be pressured by Freeze Dry with Stealth Rock down. It looks like quite a few teams are liable to lose a Pokemon if Mamoswine just picks the right STAB on the switch, not to mention the utility that Ice Shard has. I might try it out when I'm done with finals after Wednesday, but I'm basically just wondering if it's worth building around in the current metagame.

 

[57west]

So what are people's thoughts on Mamoswine right now? From my limited observation, I've noticed that a lot of balanced teams are just slapping on something along the lines of Hippowdon, Garchomp, Landorus-T, or Tangrowth as their general answer to physical threats, none of which match up well against Mamoswine. Even things like Rotom-W and Slowbro can be pressured by Freeze Dry with Stealth Rock down. It looks like quite a few teams are liable to lose a Pokemon if Mamoswine just picks the right STAB on the switch, not to mention the utility that Ice Shard has. I might try it out when I'm done with finals after Wednesday, but I'm basically just wondering if it's worth building around in the current metagame.

I think it could be good paired with a special wallbreaker like Serperior, NP Celebi, or Mega Garde, however I think weavile is just better in most scenarios unless your team is Manectric/other electric type weak

 

[Alphanex20]

So what are people's thoughts on Mamoswine right now? From my limited observation, I've noticed that a lot of balanced teams are just slapping on something along the lines of Hippowdon, Garchomp, Landorus-T, or Tangrowth as their general answer to physical threats, none of which match up well against Mamoswine. Even things like Rotom-W and Slowbro can be pressured by Freeze Dry with Stealth Rock down. It looks like quite a few teams are liable to lose a Pokemon if Mamoswine just picks the right STAB on the switch, not to mention the utility that Ice Shard has. I might try it out when I'm done with finals after Wednesday, but I'm basically just wondering if it's worth building around in the current metagame.

I think it could be good paired with a special wallbreaker like Serperior, NP Celebi, or Mega Garde, however I think weavile is just better in most scenarios unless your team is Manectric/other electric type weak

To be fair Mamoswine is also better against Volcanion (though it can't switch in) since STAB EQ hurts, plus you can get up Rocks with Mamo to ruin its day. It has a lot of the same problems Weav has (it can't touch certain steels like Skarm or Scizor, for example) but it is bulkier with a better defensive typing/ability (no rocks weakness!). Plus you can run things like Knock Off, Superpower, or Freeze-Dry on Mamo to screw with your switch-ins. It's also not that bad as a rocker since it has Oblivious to block Taunt, FWIW. Mamo + Magnezone could be a cool combo with Zone providing Volt Switch support and trapping the steels that give Mamo headaches (especially if you run Knock Off to remove Shed Shells). It could be cool with something that hates say Skarmory, for example.

But yeah, offensively Weavile is better since it has Pursuit and more speed.

 

[Random Passerby]

So what are people's thoughts on Mamoswine right now? From my limited observation, I've noticed that a lot of balanced teams are just slapping on something along the lines of Hippowdon, Garchomp, Landorus-T, or Tangrowth as their general answer to physical threats, none of which match up well against Mamoswine. Even things like Rotom-W and Slowbro can be pressured by Freeze Dry with Stealth Rock down. It looks like quite a few teams are liable to lose a Pokemon if Mamoswine just picks the right STAB on the switch, not to mention the utility that Ice Shard has. I might try it out when I'm done with finals after Wednesday, but I'm basically just wondering if it's worth building around in the current metagame.

It's doing very well with the rise of Grass-types, Genies and Dragon-types. Personally, I feel it pairs well with Thundurus who can take on Water-types and gives Thunder Wave support. Volcanion just beats Steel-types which Mamo doesn't like at all.

 

[Norne]

I have always loved mamoswine, it's a great Pokémon if you hate FWG cores, have a volt turn weakness and could use a SR user that doesn't fear taunt nor encore.

The shift towards bulky cores has really made him stand out more as a valid choice.

Sadly if you have a more diverse or faster offensive rocker or prefer pursuit utility over EQ stab other mons do it's job better or abuse weavile as your ice mon.

 

[Martin]

Here's something I've messed around with a little recently. Its nothing spectacular, but its functional and a lot of fun to use:

Poliwrath @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Circle Throw
- Scald

This 'mon is able to do a number of things. First of all, its access to Water Absorb and it taking jack shit from Sludge Bomb allows it to check Volcanion reasonably consistently (note how I'm saying "check" as opposed to "counter" 'cause of the unreliability of RestTalk and how it can't guarantee a win if it comes in on HP Grass like Toxic Jellicent or EBelt Goodra can). Secondly, its typing allows it to hard counter both Bisharp and Weavile as well as SD MegaZor, making it a good way to patch up weaknesses to them on defensive teams. The listed EV spread is tailored to taking on Volcanion; it allows it to take 2 HP Grasses from modest Lefties/Mystic Water variants after Stealth Rock damage, allowing it to use Rest on the second one and to proceed to attempt for a Circle Throw roll with Sleep Talk. Ofc if you switch in on anything other than HP Grass you can proceed to just click Circle Throw with no drawbacks, and if they're locked in with Choice Specs you can mess around with their switching too by giving them no choice with regards to who they go to as well as racking up a solid amount of damage between Circle Throw and potential Spikes/SR damage. The reason I have gone for Helmet as opposed to Lefties is because Poliwrath commonly acts as a KOff switch-in, meaning that the chip damage is more valuable/consistent than the Leftovers recovery. Its nothing spectacular, but its a good (albeit slightly team-specific) choice for defensive teams as it can compress Volc check, dark counter, fat water, Scald absorber and pHazer into one teamslot.

 

[Alphanex20]

Here's something I've messed around with a little recently. Its nothing spectacular, but its functional and a lot of fun to use:

Poliwrath @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Circle Throw
- Scald

This 'mon is able to do a number of things. First of all, its access to Water Absorb and it taking jack shit from Sludge Bomb allows it to check Volcanion reasonably consistently (note how I'm saying "check" as opposed to "counter" 'cause of the unreliability of RestTalk and how it can't guarantee a win if it comes in on HP Grass like Toxic Jellicent or EBelt Goodra can). Secondly, its typing allows it to hard counter both Bisharp and Weavile as well as SD MegaZor, making it a good way to patch up weaknesses to them on defensive teams. The listed EV spread is tailored to taking on Volcanion; it allows it to take 2 HP Grasses from modest Lefties/Mystic Water variants after Stealth Rock damage, allowing it to use Rest on the second one and to proceed to attempt for a Circle Throw roll with Sleep Talk. Ofc if you switch in on anything other than HP Grass you can proceed to just click Circle Throw with no drawbacks, and if they're locked in with Choice Specs you can mess around with their switching too by giving them no choice with regards to who they go to as well as racking up a solid amount of damage between Circle Throw and potential Spikes/SR damage. The reason I have gone for Helmet as opposed to Lefties is because Poliwrath commonly acts as a KOff switch-in, meaning that the chip damage is more valuable/consistent than the Leftovers recovery. Its nothing spectacular, but its a good (albeit slightly team-specific) choice for defensive teams as it can compress Volc check, dark counter, fat water, Scald absorber and pHazer into one teamslot.

Nice! Just what is the EV spread for? Also I would recommend Lefties mostly because of this:


252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Poliwrath: 159-187 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- 13.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (no chance of 2HKOing with Lefties)


Off the top of my head I think this could mesh well with Unaware + Cleric Clefable. Clef could wake you up with Heal Bell/pass wishes and they both are a cool anti-setup core (Poli handles Bisharp and MZor for Clef, for example).


On another note I wanted to ask if anyone has been using Toxic Spikes lately. I've been teambuilding and happened to think about Tentacruel (I wanted a spinner and Zard Y/Clef counter--Acid Spray FTW!). From the looks of things Volc hates TSpikes since it's grounded and most of Volc's checks counters are fat, grounded (!), waters. I know there aren't many good users, but hey, maybe they could work with the right team support?

 

[Martin]

Nice! Just what is the EV spread for? Also I would recommend Lefties mostly because of this:


252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Poliwrath: 159-187 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- 13.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (no chance of 2HKOing with Lefties)


Off the top of my head I think this could mesh well with Unaware + Cleric Clefable. Clef could wake you up with Heal Bell/pass wishes and they both are a cool anti-setup core (Poli handles Bisharp and MZor for Clef, for example).


On another note I wanted to ask if anyone has been using Toxic Spikes lately. I've been teambuilding and happened to think about Tentacruel (I wanted a spinner and Zard Y/Clef counter--Acid Spray FTW!). From the looks of things Volc hates TSpikes since it's grounded and most of Volc's checks counters are fat, grounded (!), waters. I know there aren't many good users, but hey, maybe they could work with the right team support?

I explain these both in the post. The EVs take 2 HP Grasses from lefties Volcanion after rocks and helmet is to take advantage of the fact that you'll often switch it in on KOff--meaning you won't often have lefties and making the extra chip damage more desirable.

 

[Celticpride]

I thought there was a rule against strawpolls?

There's not a written rule against them but yeah avoid strawpolls in general in the forum.

 

[57west]

Nice! Just what is the EV spread for? Also I would recommend Lefties mostly because of this:


252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 220+ Def Poliwrath: 159-187 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- 13.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (no chance of 2HKOing with Lefties)


Off the top of my head I think this could mesh well with Unaware + Cleric Clefable. Clef could wake you up with Heal Bell/pass wishes and they both are a cool anti-setup core (Poli handles Bisharp and MZor for Clef, for example).


On another note I wanted to ask if anyone has been using Toxic Spikes lately. I've been teambuilding and happened to think about Tentacruel (I wanted a spinner and Zard Y/Clef counter--Acid Spray FTW!). From the looks of things Volc hates TSpikes since it's grounded and most of Volc's checks counters are fat, grounded (!), waters. I know there aren't many good users, but hey, maybe they could work with the right team support?

I like tentacruel in this meta, it pairs decently with volcanion and soft checks it as well as most fairies

 

[preserve]

2 No discussing smogon's tiering methods, Pokemon you think they should suspect or anything else on those lines

Is there a forum where you can discuss such topics?