Resource ORAS OU Metagame Discussion

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
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K I've got some observations/opinions on the metagame here.

Hazard Removal - The balance of power among hazard clearance has very clearly shifted. Defog Latios is really bad at this point because it doesn't Defog all that consistently, with my preference for defogging Lati shifting over to Latias due to it's significant increase in bulk and incentive to invest defensively making it far more consistent in the role. Starmie is as good as ever, and honestly I think that it is the only Pokémon who is a good hazard clearer on it's merits as a hazard clearer rather than on it's merits in role compression like is the case with Latias, Excadrill and Zapdos. My opinion of spindrill has shifted massively, with me now thinking that it is worth using on teams for a spinner. That said, I don't think that it is viable in this role because it is a good spinner--on the contrary, I think it's ass as a spinner--but rather because it is really nice for role compression purposes. I've seen a slight return of SpD Drill recently too, although idk whether that's just 'cause I've been facing bad players or if it's on any of it's merits 'cause I still stand by it being a mediocre set. Scarf Drill has dropped off too, as I've not seen it in a while outside of people using Xtra Chirpz. Zapdos is probably the only dedicated defensive hazard clearer, as while bulky Starmie is a thing I wouldn't exactly call it defensive in the traditional sense.

Azelf - This thing has seen a huge surge in usage during OLT. While I suspect that this is due to Xtra Chripz, I have been using Azelf HO for a while now and it is definitely an incredibly strong playstyle atm. I've been messing around with a bulky Tauntless variant (SR+Skill Swap+Iron Tail+Boom) with Colbur Berry and it's been surprisingly helpful for it's ability to lay hazards consistently vs. both Sableye and Diancie without needing to play a 50:50 vs. the latter between Skill Swapping and SRing, and I've not really been missing Taunt at all 'cause people don't tend to set up on Azelf expecting the Taunt anyway. When people stop expecting Taunt I'll change back, but I've not been missing it much so far. Anyway yeah just the sheer offensive presence exerted by full-on HO teams is extremely difficult for a lot of people to handle and it makes a lot of sense why HO has been so dominant in a tournament where the aim is to ladder as high as possible.

ScoliPass - In case this discussion in this thread hasn't informed you of this, people find this controversial. All I have to say on the matter is that until it sees notable success in major tournament play (i.e. not the OLT qualification stage) I see no issue with this. People are adapting, figuring out how to deal with it in practical scenarios (i.e. not theoretical methods of handling it, most of which fall flat in practice) and I don't think it's the type of thing that anyone could top the ladder using without the aid of a secondary team to aid the climb later on.

Dugtrio - I think that Dugtrio is one of the most underrated Pokémon in the current meta given just how good it's utility is. Whereas in the past it'd often feel like dead weight, it's been receiving a lot of attention recently for its ability to really help a lot of teams, being paired with both wallbreakers like Specs Hydreigon and Mega Charizard Y as well as being good utility for defensive teams, eliminating threats such as Band Tyranitar, stallbreaker Heatran and a number of other Pokémon who give these types of teams a lot of trouble, and in particular people have been hyping up Screech for it's ability to break through Pokémon like Chansey and to create setup opportunities for physical setup Pokémon. All in all it's just a really nice 'mon and I can only see it going up in the world: not down.

Wonder Trio - Speaking of Dugtrio, this is an archetype which has definitely come back into relevance during OLT. Like, off of the top of my head I played Ox (forgive me if I'm misremembering; it may have been someone else, but it was definitely a recognisable tour player) who was using a variant of the archetype a few cycles ago, and I've also seen a number of other people using it on the ladder as well as seeing talk of it here and there. That said, the old Seismitoad+Togekiss+Talonflame variant seems to have died out for the most part, with people opting for Pokémon like Zapdos and other defensive Pokémon to fill different roles on the team and to adapt to the needs of the current metagame. Hell, I even saw a variant with Tyranitar which was able to pose a threat despite invalidating Shedinja for five turns at a time. All in all it is definitely an interesting time for Wonder Trio and I'm excited to see how the style will evolve further.

Choiced Wallbreakers - These definitely seem to be showing a lot of dominance in the current metagame. With things like Specs Latios, Specs Hydreigon, Band Crawdaunt etc. recieving a lot of attention recently, it seems very obvious to me that the way to go for wallbreaking nowadays is definitely immediate power>setup, with the latter mostly being relegated to a sweeping role nowadays. Also an interesting thing to note is that as Band Crawdaunt has been gaining attention it seems that Band Azumarill has completely dropped under the radar. This is most likely due to Crawdaunt's superior immediate power relative to Azumarill (with jolly Crawdaunt slightly outdamaging adamant Azumarill on it's STABs, and with adamant Crawdaunt's damage output being one of the most OTT things in the whole game) as well as the increase in Tangrowth/Amoonguss usage and the general potency of Dark-types in the metagame as a whole, and at this point the only Azu set that really sees the light is BellyJet.

There are a few other things too that I can't remember off of the top of my head, but yeah the meta most certainly isn't stale atm. It's a lot of fun to see the meta evolve, and here's to gen 7!
 
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Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Punch

This thing is legit rn. It absolutely screws over Belly Drum Azumarill, Crawdaunt, penalizes choice Keldeo from spamming Scald, obliterates Clefable and Landorus-T, and has very few switch ins. Gunk Shot is absurd:

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 168 - 199 (55.2% - 65.4%)

Rotom-W can't swtich in

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 208 - 250 (54.4% - 65.4%)

Lando-T can't switch in.

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 325 - 385 (124.5% - 147.5%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Alakazam: 307 - 361 (122.3% - 143.8%)

Non-STAB Sucker Punch destroys Gengar and Mega Zam.

I could post more calcs but yeah. Use this thing and pair it with VoltTurn to give it free switches since it can't really come in on anything except Keldeo, Tyranitar, and choice-locked Azumarill/Crawdaunt (not bad for an offensive mon though). Also pair it with something that appreciates Fairies being killed like Hydreigon, which can also provide U-Turn support and deal with fat grounds and steels with Specs Meteor/Dark Pulse. I played with this a bunch mid-ladder last night but failed to save any replays.

EDIT: Martin. I use SpD Excadrill fairly often and I think it's excellent at compressing the roles of Stealth Rocker + Spinner while also being hard checks to things like Mega Manectric, Clefable, Latios without Surf, etc. It tanks non-STAB super effective hits pretty well even and can get up rocks vs. Mega Sableye. If you are building a team that would appreciate the ability to tank a few more hits and don't want to waste moveslots on other Pokemon covering basic necessities, SpD Excadrill is your man.
 
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I feel like more people are using Gengar. I don't know why, this mon is pretty meh but it can deal well with wonder trio I guess.

But another special attacker that definitely rose is Mega Alakazam. Why it took people so long to understand how good it is? It outspeed and possibly OHKO Lopunny and Medicham. It has no solid switchins beside Scizor and Chansey and overall is pretty devastating mon.

Another thing is Gliscor. Before OLT I would said it's trash but now has so much more going on because all that flying spam and wondertrio. SD rock slide with psyched EV is way to go and it pretty much 6-0 wonder trio.
 

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 HP / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Punch

This thing is legit rn. It absolutely screws over Belly Drum Azumarill, Crawdaunt, penalizes choice Keldeo from spamming Scald, obliterates Clefable and Landorus-T, and has very few switch ins. Gunk Shot is absurd:

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-Wash: 168 - 199 (55.2% - 65.4%)

Rotom-W can't swtich in

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 208 - 250 (54.4% - 65.4%)

Lando-T can't switch in.

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gengar: 325 - 385 (124.5% - 147.5%)

252+ Atk Life Orb Toxicroak Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Alakazam: 307 - 361 (122.3% - 143.8%)

Non-STAB Sucker Punch destroys Gengar and Mega Zam.

I could post more calcs but yeah. Use this thing and pair it with VoltTurn to give it free switches since it can't really come in on anything except Keldeo, Tyranitar, and choice-locked Azumarill/Crawdaunt (not bad for an offensive mon though). Also pair it with something that appreciates Fairies being killed like Hydreigon, which can also provide U-Turn support and deal with fat grounds and steels with Specs Meteor/Dark Pulse. I played with this a bunch mid-ladder last night but failed to save any replays.

EDIT: Martin. I use SpD Excadrill fairly often and I think it's excellent at compressing the roles of Stealth Rocker + Spinner while also being hard checks to things like Mega Manectric, Clefable, Latios without Surf, etc. It tanks non-STAB super effective hits pretty well even and can get up rocks vs. Mega Sableye. If you are building a team that would appreciate the ability to tank a few more hits and don't want to waste moveslots on other Pokemon covering basic necessities, SpD Excadrill is your man.
Clearly a threat to be considered, but what about running a mixed version? I feel like focus blast over drain punch could make it an absolute beast, considering that it damages Skarmory and other common switches harder, and can give you a surprising factor since Toxicroak is never used. Another option could be vaccum wave or hp fire / grass, but i believe those end up not compensating the opportunity coust.
 
Clearly a threat to be considered, but what about running a mixed version? I feel like focus blast over drain punch could make it an absolute beast, considering that it damages Skarmory and other common switches harder, and can give you a surprising factor since Toxicroak is never used. Another option could be vaccum wave or hp fire / grass, but i believe those end up not compensating the opportunity coust.
This is better.

Toxicroak @ Life Orb
Ability: Anticipation
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Focus Blast
- Sludge Wave
- Vacuum Wave
 
I know this might actually be more or less a stupid question but are we gonna have a Greninja suspect test?
I know the answee is prolly "NO!" but I really think Greninja isn't so good. I love Greninja but it's just not good enough for Ubers and prolly a wee but too good for OU, and since there is no BL between Ubers and OU, it's in Ubers. I understand that. But it really sucks for such a cool mon to be stuck right between two tiers, without getting used. And I know, "some people do use Greninja in Ubers" but if you look around in like 1500-2000 ranking it is on nobody's team.

Just wanted this off my chest.
 
I know this might actually be more or less a stupid question but are we gonna have a Greninja suspect test?
I know the answee is prolly "NO!" but I really think Greninja isn't so good. I love Greninja but it's just not good enough for Ubers and prolly a wee but too good for OU, and since there is no BL between Ubers and OU, it's in Ubers. I understand that. But it really sucks for such a cool mon to be stuck right between two tiers, without getting used. And I know, "some people do use Greninja in Ubers" but if you look around in like 1500-2000 ranking it is on nobody's team.

Just wanted this off my chest.
Well, you said so yourself: NO!

Ubers viability has no bearing on OU tiering. Even if it is a niche pick at best up there, Protean+incredible speed+incredible coverage would still break this metagame.
 
I know this might actually be more or less a stupid question but are we gonna have a Greninja suspect test?
I know the answee is prolly "NO!" but I really think Greninja isn't so good. I love Greninja but it's just not good enough for Ubers and prolly a wee but too good for OU, and since there is no BL between Ubers and OU, it's in Ubers. I understand that. But it really sucks for such a cool mon to be stuck right between two tiers, without getting used. And I know, "some people do use Greninja in Ubers" but if you look around in like 1500-2000 ranking it is on nobody's team.

Just wanted this off my chest.
It also happens to plenty of Pokemon in the multiple BL tiers (Though not to the same extent, I must admit). How viable are in the tier(s) they are forced to get stuck in is no matter, as long as there is a good reason to not allow them below those places (And there is, of course).
 

Martin

A monoid in the category of endofunctors
is a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I know this might actually be more or less a stupid question but are we gonna have a Greninja suspect test?
I know the answee is prolly "NO!" but I really think Greninja isn't so good. I love Greninja but it's just not good enough for Ubers and prolly a wee but too good for OU, and since there is no BL between Ubers and OU, it's in Ubers. I understand that. But it really sucks for such a cool mon to be stuck right between two tiers, without getting used. And I know, "some people do use Greninja in Ubers" but if you look around in like 1500-2000 ranking it is on nobody's team.

Just wanted this off my chest.
Things don't drop just because they're "not good in ubers" because it isn't a usage based tier. Honestly the BL tiers are the equivalent of ubers for their respective tier. Think of ubers as BL0, as it is simply an OU banlist that happens to be big enough to have a player base of it's own whereas the BLs don't.

Edit: double ninja holy shit
 
I know this might actually be more or less a stupid question but are we gonna have a Greninja suspect test?
I know the answee is prolly "NO!" but I really think Greninja isn't so good.
You know something is broken when it is ranked #4 Most Influential Pokemon in the Sixth Generation when it spends almost half the time being banned in Ubers. I don't care how it performs in Ubers when it is completely broken in OU and should be banned for at least the remainder of the generation.
 
I know this might actually be more or less a stupid question but are we gonna have a Greninja suspect test?
I know the answee is prolly "NO!" but I really think Greninja isn't so good. I love Greninja but it's just not good enough for Ubers and prolly a wee but too good for OU, and since there is no BL between Ubers and OU, it's in Ubers. I understand that. But it really sucks for such a cool mon to be stuck right between two tiers, without getting used. And I know, "some people do use Greninja in Ubers" but if you look around in like 1500-2000 ranking it is on nobody's team.

Just wanted this off my chest.
And your argument for a suspect test of a broken af 'mon is... that it's not good enough for Ubers? Sorry to sound condescending but how good a Pokemon is in Ubers has no effect on it's chances of being suspected down. Look at the variety of Arceus forms that are barely used/shitmons in Ubers - any one of these Arceus forms would massively overcentralise OU to a point of ridiculousness (tier becomes who can take down the opposing Arceus forme and sweeping with yours, pretty much the Aegi meta on steroids) and be unholy levels of overpowered, or Deo-N, a Pokemon that was actually banned before Mega Kangaskhan. You know, the king of the ingame singles battle spot ladder and one of the most broken 'mons in Gen 6? Oh yeah, and the recently banned Hoopa-U isn't used much at all there on account of being terrible over there, and that was pretty centralising in OU, not to mention base Kyogre (the ex king of Ubers) and Reshiram, both shitmons in Ubers, as well as Mega Blaziken (never let this into OU pls) and others would come down to OU due to the fact they're not exactly the most viable 'mons in Ubers. The Ubers meta is ridiculously different to OU, and as a result, how good or bad something is there should have no bearing on if it should be legal in OU. By the logic you're using, a bunch of broken shit would be let into the tier.

Furthermore, BLs are basically the below OU equivalent of lower tiers' Ubers and vice versa.

EDIT: 4x Ninja combo oml tbh considering deleting this for the sheer fact we don't need 10 million people replying to one
 
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Josh

=P
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
For the record: the reason it sucks in ubers is because even with protean it doesn't have the power to break shit in ubers, and it also doesn't have the bulk or even an insane speed tier (still decent but not great). It's just outclassed by other attackers in whatever role you'd want it for. So, the only set that's "viable" is suicide lead since it's a fast taunt user with tspikes and spikes. However, Deo-s and Cloyster just about always outclass it in that role too so it sees pretty much no usage. A lot of the frailer stuff in Ubers is as bulky as the bulkier stuff in Ou which is why it's not strong enough to break shit up there, but on ou levels it's completely different. It outspeeds nearly everything, hits extremely hard and gets stab coverage on nearly everything. It also has an expansive move pool making it unpredictable. It's very comparable to hoopa-u in this regard: a very strong mon with coverage for everything that is shit in ubers.

Yea we don't drop stuff to ou that's shit in ubers, just wanted to give you some insight. We don't need 5 people replying to him, guys, his post wasn't even worded aggressively.
 
I know this might actually be more or less a stupid question but are we gonna have a Greninja suspect test?
I know the answee is prolly "NO!" but I really think Greninja isn't so good. I love Greninja but it's just not good enough for Ubers and prolly a wee but too good for OU, and since there is no BL between Ubers and OU, it's in Ubers. I understand that. But it really sucks for such a cool mon to be stuck right between two tiers, without getting used. And I know, "some people do use Greninja in Ubers" but if you look around in like 1500-2000 ranking it is on nobody's team.

Just wanted this off my chest.
Even if Ubers is a tier, things still work as Pre-Mega Rayquaza. No pokemon will drop from usage or viability (If this was right Reshiram and Arceus-Bug would need to drop too lmao). If you think that greninja should comeback with arguments that apply only to the OU tier, then you have a point.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ok so with Greninja obviously not getting re-suspected again aside, I will like top talk about Stall in the current meta, specifically Mega Sableye + Dugtrio variants since this issue has also been brought up in PR...



So this is Tele Dugtrio stall team that I have been encountering and using myself quite often on the high ladder and has been being quite effective so far. Dugtrio is able to trap and KO vital stallbreakers that are used on bulky offense and balance to deal with these type of teams such as CB Tyranitar, Mega Diancie, and Stallbreaker Heatran which makes it so much more easier for the stall team to then deal with the opposing player as they no longer need to worry about the anti-stall strats coming from these mons. This is also quite effective when paired with Mega Sableye specifically as Dugtrio is very useful at trapping and KOing mons that can counter Mega Sableye as I mentioned previously. This is so important as getting rid of the Mega Sableye is the best chance to win when facing stall as it is no longer there to just block hazards (unless ur hazard setter is Clefable, Excadrill or Heatran), and puts pressure on the stall player to Defog the hazards away with Zapdos, since hazards are so vital at breaking down defensive mons. I would like to ask the general public upon how they are dealing with Dugtrio + Mega Sableye stall teams, and whether or not something needs to be done about it just as we where discussing Baton Pass previously.

Btw I am not saying that Tele's team is perfect as I did notice that it just autoloses to Mega Zard Y if Dugtrio does not have Rock coverage, I just used it as an example as its one of the most effective Dugtrio stall variants imo. Another notable one includes ABR Mega Altaria + Dugtrio semi-stall team as well.
 
Speaking on stall. I've been using Medicham + Stall Breaker Togekiss these days on the ladder and it's pretty much a great combo to take down stall now days. Medicham bursts a hole in everything and Togekiss deals with Sableye and other annoying things like defensive Lando, leaving place to a set-up sweeper like Manaphy or DD Lando finish the job. Pretending on post it on good cores.
 
Teams like this kinda show that shed shell can actually be a really viable item; Shed Shell Heatran just decimates this team, especially if you pair it with the increasingly popular Alolomola who can consistently heal up Heatran against Clefable, Skarmory, Sableye...
 

p2

Banned deucer.
as much as i think shed shell is great for dicking duggy users, it's a horrible item overall. without lefties, heatran doesn't have the longevity to reliably punish the team and maintain some form of pressure on it, which is pretty important in this case since it desperately wants to be able to recover from inevitably getting scalded by suicune when tran goes for taunt. tho it's great when you catch people off in the minimal chance that shed shell actually proves to be useful.

edit: missed the alomomola point, but it's never gonna be able to allow tran to break down the team because zapdos is just gonna spam discharge and cripple heatran eventually.
 
as much as i think shed shell is great for dicking duggy users, it's a horrible item overall. without lefties, heatran doesn't have the longevity to reliably punish the team and maintain some form of pressure on it, which is pretty important in this case since it desperately wants to be able to recover from inevitably getting scalded by suicune when tran goes for taunt. tho it's great when you catch people off in the minimal chance that shed shell actually proves to be useful.

edit: missed the alomomola point, but it's never gonna be able to allow tran to break down the team because zapdos is just gonna spam discharge and cripple heatran eventually.
Well yeah but that's why there are 6 mons on a team, shed shell Heatran shits on half the team. If one mon shut down that whole team it'd be banned (Hoopa)

Edit: just said team 3 times in a sentence, gross
 
Honestly I think that after people get over that everybody knows ABR stall and it's obvious weakness stall suddenly become harder to beat. Now you cannot just slap mega herracross or crawdnaunt and be happy about yourself.

Now with variety of stall and semi-stall teams preparing for them is much harder. Some of them are destroyed by NP thundurus, some are weak to SD chomp. Of course every one of them have some kind of weakness but variety makes it harder to prepare for.
 
Honestly I think that after people get over that everybody knows ABR stall and it's obvious weakness stall suddenly become harder to beat. Now you cannot just slap mega herracross or crawdnaunt and be happy about yourself.

Now with variety of stall and semi-stall teams preparing for them is much harder. Some of them are destroyed by NP thundurus, some are weak to SD chomp. Of course every one of them have some kind of weakness but variety makes it harder to prepare for.
I feel that this variety is healthy, as annoying as it is to prepare for most defensive cores, the fact that multiple types of stall archetypes are viable should be an indicator of a healthy metagame in my opinion.

I forgot to add about the fact that we have many different wallbreakers of choice to deal with stall, instead of a sole ALL PURPOSE STALLION wallbreaker like Hoopa-u was can be considered healthy as well. Options are never a bad thing even if it dilutes the viability of staple mons over the role optimization they once had.
 
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Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
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Well yeah but that's why there are 6 mons on a team, shed shell Heatran shits on half the team. If one mon shut down that whole team it'd be banned (Hoopa)

Edit: just said team 3 times in a sentence, gross
You're kind of missing the point of what p2 is saying. Heatran's typing is only good defensively if it has Lefties to keep it healthy, otherwise it can't consistently check shit like Latios, Manectric, Torn-T, Clef, Talon, etc. That's why Heatran is one of the LAST things you want to get knocked off because it's so easy to wear down without any form of passive recovery. Shed shell is only useful in VERY specific match ups, and yea sure it has the potential to completely manhandle those teams but why wouldn't you just use a more consistent stallbreaker that isn't just useful vs Duggy stall? Even something like CB or SD Crawdaunt gives that team a lot of issues, because Suicune can't switch into a +2 Knock Off or CB Crunch, and Zapdos has to be careful about being put in +2 Jet range. Or yeah just use Zard-Y lol.
 
You're kind of missing the point of what p2 is saying. Heatran's typing is only good defensively if it has Lefties to keep it healthy, otherwise it can't consistently check shit like Latios, Manectric, Torn-T, Clef, Talon, etc. That's why Heatran is one of the LAST things you want to get knocked off because it's so easy to wear down without any form of passive recovery. Shed shell is only useful in VERY specific match ups, and yea sure it has the potential to completely manhandle those teams but why wouldn't you just use a more consistent stallbreaker that isn't just useful vs Duggy stall? Even something like CB or SD Crawdaunt gives that team a lot of issues, because Suicune can't switch into a +2 Knock Off or CB Crunch, and Zapdos has to be careful about being put in +2 Jet range. Or yeah just use Zard-Y lol.
Again, that's why I said to pair it with Alo and that's where Heatran can become problematic. I know how important lefties are, but people complain about duggy and then don't accept any answers to it

I just said it'd be good against that stall lol
 

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