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Hmm so I was scrolling through this and didn't see a rock polish set for mega tyranitar. IMO it definitely deserves to be ranked. Rock polish sets can afford to run adamant and still retain some more power without any boosts, while being a decent late game cleaner. It separates itself apart from dragon dance sets by being much harder to revenge kill, as it can outspeed stuff like mega lopunny and choice scarf lando-t.
As for placement, C is probably fine I guess.
edit: Also why is CB emboar ranked lower than scarf emboar rofl, it should be the other way around, CB is C- and scarf is D.
ScarfChomp should definitely move up to A-. It's a really underprepared for threat right now and it just destroys teams late-game, a lot of people expect bulkychomp right now, which people try to stay and hit with hp ices/icy winds, while it just beats pretty much anything trying to, a lot of stuff like Gengar, Torn-T, Thundurus etc just get OHKOd (after prior damage for Torn however). It's a really underrated cleaner though and has completely saved me from losing multiple games, including tour ones.
Hmm so I was scrolling through this and didn't see a rock polish set for mega tyranitar. IMO it definitely deserves to be ranked. Rock polish sets can afford to run adamant and still retain some more power without any boosts, while being a decent late game cleaner. It separates itself apart from dragon dance sets by being much harder to revenge kill, as it can outspeed stuff like mega lopunny and choice scarf lando-t.
As for placement, C is probably fine I guess.
edit: Also why is CB emboar ranked lower than scarf emboar rofl, it should be the other way around, CB is C- and scarf is D.
Band's main problem is just being difficult to get in with. The low speed and lack of priority compared to Scarf and Life Orb makes it a bit difficult and it can be pretty prediction reliant. Scarf technically faces the latter problem, but its ease of getting in with outspeeding Torn-T and below can remedy this.
C- might be appropriate for both of them though, since Emboar's sheer power is scary with Band, seeing that anything is in danger of losing half its health. Life Orb should also be ranked, as it's not niche in the slighest and allows Emboar to switch moves and carry Sucker Punch.
Agree that Rock Polish Tar should be ranked though. The extra speed after a boost is definitely important and being able to afford Adamant is nice.
Ok so....I've never seen Rock Polish Mega Tyranitar once with the exception of a joke team I made a long time ago when I heard it around the time Mega Lopunny was introduced. I don't know about anybody else but I definitely would need to see some replays that are relatively good to make it even a worthwhile as a rank placement. Kind of don't want pointless sets being ranked if Dragon Dance is overall superior.
The low speed and lack of priority compared to Scarf and Life Orb makes it a bit difficult and it can be pretty prediction reliant. Scarf technically faces the latter problem, but its ease of getting in with outspeeding Torn-T and below can remedy this.
C- might be appropriate for both of them though, since Emboar's sheer power is scary with Band, seeing that anything is in danger of losing half its health. Life Orb should also be ranked, as it's not niche in the slighest and allows Emboar to switch moves and carry Sucker Punch.
Agree that Rock Polish Tar should be ranked though. The extra speed after a boost is definitely important and being able to afford Adamant is nice.
Low speed really isn't too much of a problem for emboar. The whole point of using it is a super powerful wallbreaker that's hard to wall and can punch massive holes in teams. Scarf just takes away so much of its power and if you're using emboar to revenge kill stuff I really don't know what to say. Yes it lacks speed and priority compared to LO and scarf, but it has more power than both and can run head smash which LO usually doesn't (too much recoil) to break past defensive mega altaria.
To be honest, scarf kinda just takes away the main purpose of emboar which is being a wallbreaker. Scarf should definitely be D rank, it's a really mediocre and underwhelming set which lacks the power that CB and LO get, and is much more prediction reliant than LO. CB and LO are probably around the same level though.
I mean I was the one who first posted about RP TTar on forums iirc (not trying to take credit if someone else used it first lol). It's not really notable / relevant enough to include here, mostly because it is just an offshoot of the DD set. DD is almost always more useful, RP M-TTar is pretty much only more useful in a core with something else that gets blocked by Lando-T (for example CB Nite). Overall very team specific and not really different functioning enough from say SD Hera vs Sub Hera, or Wisp Gard vs Taunt Gard. Sure they all play slightly different but not too different.
Okay, so just a quick announcement to go along with the update based on the most recent VR thread update.
I wanted to mention that the OP has a recent updates tab that includes updates from the past two days or so. Since I'm not posting every time I make a change to set's ranking, that tab is a good tool to see if discussion has warranted a specific change or not. If you have any questions about a change or you disagree with a change, post it here! This thread is meant for discussion.
Anyway, here is a list of the most recent updates to the VR thread. I'll be updating the OP to reflect these changes shortly. I'll probably put together a list of possible noms and edit/update this post with them. I'll also talk to AM to see if he has anything in particular he would like to see discussion on. Don't expect much more tonight though. I'm tired.
Alakazam: B- > B
Reuniclus: B- > B
Cresselia: B > B-
Alomomola: B- > C+
Gastrodon: C+ > B-
Gourgeist XL: C- > C
Bronzong: C+ > B-
The discussion about RP Mega Tyranitar does make me rather curious: I heard about RP Tyrantrum when people were advocating it for a rise - has it turned out to be not as good as some thought or was it just passed over? I'm not necessarily nominating it for the rankings, I just want to know why it's absent.
VR thread updated again. This post will be brief, and I'll edit in a list of discussion topics for the next few days later tonight.
Whimsicott: C- > C
Dugtrio: C- > C
Blastoise Mega: C > C+
Infernape: C+ > B-
Kyurem: C- > C
Emboar: C- > D
Mamoswine: A- > B+
Chesnaught: B+ > B
Cresselia: B- > C+
Edit: As promised, here is a list of what I'd like to see discussion on over the next few days. Mega Altaria - This mon is just a beast. All of its sets are extremely effective, and I think it has dethroned Mega Metagross as the best mega. The questions I have: should all of M-Alt's sets be S-rank? Which sets are the most effective atm? Excadrill - I've recently been using AV SpDef Excadrill as a rapid spinner and I've not been disappointed in its abilities. I've been running RS/EQ/IH/Rock Tomb, and it has really put in work at checking fairies and keeping my side of the field clear of hazards. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Additionally, AM requested that the Scarf set move up, but I'm not so sure. Someone convince me. Celebi - I will admit that I was probably a little harsh in my rankings of Celebi's sets, but that's because I really hate Celebi. Like my hatred for it borders on absurd. Anyway, where should Celebi's support and offensive sets be placed? Are they as good as the BP set? Better? Terrakion - I haven't seen this thing used on the ladder or in tour games in forever. How effective is it currently? What sets are better than others? Was ORAS/XY too unfriendly to Keldeo's older brother? Infernape - This thing just seems stupidly versatile for a B- mon. Like there are five sets listed here, more than any other mon. What's Nape's best set? Has anyone played around will all of the different sets it can pull off?
All right, so there are some thoughts to get discussion going. Feel free to comment on these mons or any others. Happy posting, everyone!
VR thread updated again. This post will be brief, and I'll edit in a list of discussion topics for the next few days later tonight.
Whimsicott: C- > C
Dugtrio: C- > C
Blastoise Mega: C > C+
Infernape: C+ > B-
Kyurem: C- > C
Emboar: C- > D
Mamoswine: A- > B+
Chesnaught: B+ > B
Cresselia: B- > C+
Edit: As promised, here is a list of what I'd like to see discussion on over the next few days. Mega Altaria - This mon is just a beast. All of its sets are extremely effective, and I think it has dethroned Mega Metagross as the best mega. The questions I have: should all of M-Alt's sets be S-rank? Which sets are the most effective atm? Excadrill - I've recently been using AV SpDef Excadrill as a rapid spinner and I've not been disappointed in its abilities. I've been running RS/EQ/IH/Rock Tomb, and it has really put in work at checking fairies and keeping my side of the field clear of hazards. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Additionally, AM requested that the Scarf set move up, but I'm not so sure. Someone convince me. Celebi - I will admit that I was probably a little harsh in my rankings of Celebi's sets, but that's because I really hate Celebi. Like my hatred for it borders on absurd. Anyway, where should Celebi's support and offensive sets be placed? Are they as good as the BP set? Better? Terrakion - I haven't seen this thing used on the ladder or in tour games in forever. How effective is it currently? What sets are better than others? Was ORAS/XY too unfriendly to Keldeo's older brother? Infernape - This thing just seems stupidly versatile for a B- mon. Like there are five sets listed here, more than any other mon. What's Nape's best set? Has anyone played around will all of the different sets it can pull off?
All right, so there are some thoughts to get discussion going. Feel free to comment on these mons or any others. Happy posting, everyone!
Hmm never heard of scarf celebi before but I'm pretty sure the offensive celebi he's talking about is nasty plot + grass STAB + earth power + psychic which is great to beat bulky waters and defeat common FWG cores such as mega venusaur + heatran + water type.
Hmm never heard of scarf celebi before but I'm pretty sure the offensive celebi he's talking about is nasty plot + grass STAB + earth power + psychic which is great to beat bulky waters and defeat common FWG cores such as mega venusaur + heatran + water type.
Yup. It kinda works like a grass type Manaphy in the sense that it makes use of its expansive movepool and good bulk to sweep but with a worse typing and a worse boosting move. Celebi also has the option to run LO and/or reliable recovery. Scarf Celebi doesn't seem viable because it's eaten alive by priority and all of its potential moves are either exploitable (HP Fire, Psychic, Earth Power) or just a bad attacking type (Giga Drain/Leaf Storm). Honestly, something like Shaymin seems like a better option for a Scarf Grass type because Seed Flare is a much better STAB, but even then it seems pretty niche/pointless.
Hmm never heard of scarf celebi before but I'm pretty sure the offensive celebi he's talking about is nasty plot + grass STAB + earth power + psychic which is great to beat bulky waters and defeat common FWG cores such as mega venusaur + heatran + water type.
In my experience, Offensive Celebi has always been LO Recover + 3 Attacks. I really only heard of Scarf Celebi in early ORAS when alexwolf used it as an example - I used it a few times then on but not really that much, but it was decent in my experience.
VR thread updated again. This post will be brief, and I'll edit in a list of discussion topics for the next few days later tonight.
Infernape - This thing just seems stupidly versatile for a B- mon. Like there are five sets listed here, more than any other mon. What's Nape's best set? Has anyone played around will all of the different sets it can pull off?
All right, so there are some thoughts to get discussion going. Feel free to comment on these mons or any others. Happy posting, everyone!
Don't know and don't really care about the rest lol but I can speak about Infernape. I've tried every set except Swords Dance but that's kind of the same as Nasty Plot. Anyways, mixed and defensive are easily its best sets and I definitely think they are B- worthy. Mixed sets are hard as hell to switch into unless you have bulky Garchomp but Chomp isn't that hard to wear down because of lack of recovery. Fire Blast/Flare Blitz, Close Combat, Gunk Shot and either HP Ice or Grass Knot in the last slot is really, really hard to switch into. Even 72 HP Latias can only switch in once if rocks are up and Garchomp/Landorus/Gliscor don't really like HP Ice whille Hippowdwon doesn't like GK if you have that.
Defensive sets are great on balanced teams because of Weavile and Bisharp being really hard to switch into and having both countered (yes, countered, not even checked) in one slot is nice. Defensive Infernape is one of the few Pokemon who can take on a +2 Weavile/Bisharp AND ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING BACK. Reliable recovery makes it very reliable to handle these things + some more like Scizor. It can even check non-banded Azumarill which is pretty crazy because we all know how frail offensive Infernape is and defensive can easily tank a non-banded Aqua Jet, burn it, and take like 25% from the next one lol. Sadly you can't do much back unless you replace one of your STAB attacks (I usually run Fire Punch, Mach Punch, Slack Off, Will-o-Wisp) for something that can hit Azu hard, like Grass Knot or Gunk Shot (lol Gunk Shot on defensive Nape).
And lead Infernape isn't that good, it only has a few niches over other suicide leads which are Fake Out, Endeavor, and...yeah that's about it. You get some supportive moves too but really hard fitting all that in one set. I personally think Nasty Plot sets are better than Swords Dance simply because NP Nape can break through Hippowdon, Garchomp, Landorus-T, etc. a lot better. Basically it beats typical and common blanket checks a lot easier with things like +2 HP Ice which beats Hippowdon easily. Swords Dance is harder to pull off with things like bulky Garchomp everywhere. Ranking Scarf is also an idea if you think it's good enough as mixed Scarf is hard to switch into and you can even run fully physical Scarf and it has U-turn + wide range of coverage which is cool ^_^
Basically (imo) Mixed -> B-
Defensive -> B-
Nasty Plot -> one sub-rank higher than Swords Dance
Lead -> Idc, kind of wastes Infernape's potential so maybe even unranked
Scarf -> Unranked to whatever you think fits, maybe keep it unranked if you want
Hi, I see that Tank Clefable isn't ranked (the one with Life Orb + 3 Attacks + Soft-Boiled), it should be around A imo. Also, does Unaware Clefable encompass Calm Mind + Unaware sets?
Maybe Weavile should have its Swords Dance set ranked? B+/B sounds fine probably. In addition, Calm Mind Mega Diancie isn't ranked. A- seems fair game.
Gliscor: A+ > A
Alakazam: B > B+
Garchomp Mega: B- > B
Conkeldurr: B > B-
I'll also be making some updates/additions in regard to the (meager) discussion we've seen here. Check the recent updates section for those.
PS: Just a reminder that this isn't the place to discuss the Lando-I suspect or its effects on the metagame, but between you and me, OMG LANDO-I SUSPECT YES BAN THIS THING.
I want to see someone provide me a replay of Sunny Day M-Hounddom in action. I think quite frankly there is no legitimate reason to use it other than what I presume is a theorymonned M-Hound / Venusaur core and even then that's a stretch. If that's not the case I don't see the point of having it as a set.
urbandear asked my opinion on Life Orb Clef on PS earlier today and I said B+. I guess if you want a discussion point you can establish why or why not it should be higher. I don't think any higher than B+ is good for a pokemon where its most dominant trait is providing utility more so than offensive traits. 3 attacks / healing wish or 3 attacks / softboiled is cool but I guess is there any real merit into raising it higher.
I know I mentioned Roar Suicune but I think we can go ahead and take that out and either keep it as Calm Mind or just call it Defensive.
Utility Attacker M-Gross I think should be broken down into Rock Polish / Agility and Hone Claws. RP / Agility being A+ and Hone Claws being A.
I think we can bump hydreigon scarf to B, it's not as bad as I thought it would be judging by all the other B- ranked sets and mons so I can agree with a bump for that if people want that.
Just call M-Manectric Revenge Killer. That's generally its main use on most teams and the notion of "Pivot" is very subjective and revenge killers are generally momentum grabbers to begin with.
I think Offensive SD M-Scizor should go down to A. Here's the thing, it's not a bad set, but it's best set right now in the meta is the bulky one. So offensive SD comes with the opportunity cost that you're not running this fat as hell steel type that a lot of teams will actually use over M-Gross since it can soft check a TON of stuff on offense and balanced in general. With that said the defensive sets / utility sets of M-Scizor should go down to B+. Defog M-Scizor I find is somewhat of a waste of M-Scizors real potential in the metagame these days when it can benefit itself as a pivot with both offensive and defensive utility that once again makes the bulky SD set very solid on just about any kind of team.
I've never used sunny day houndoom before but I'd assume one of the reasons for using sunny day is so that you have a no charge solarbeam, allowing you to lure in mons like keldeo, azumarill, and mega diancie.
I've never used sunny day houndoom before but I'd assume one of the reasons for using sunny day is so that you have a no charge solarbeam, allowing you to lure in mons like keldeo, azumarill, and mega diancie.
And that's kind of the point. What is the point of just presuming and theorymonning what it does if 1. No one uses it 2. its NP set will net more wins and rewards from a power level. This was a thing that people just threw out to establish its roles when its a role that, maybe one person used ._. It'd be nice to see quality replays showing it in action than just "presuming" what it does.
I want to see someone provide me a replay of Sunny Day M-Hounddom in action. I think quite frankly there is no legitimate reason to use it other than what I presume is a theorymonned M-Hound / Venusaur core and even then that's a stretch. If that's not the case I don't see the point of having it as a set.
urbandear asked my opinion on Life Orb Clef on PS earlier today and I said B+. I guess if you want a discussion point you can establish why or why not it should be higher. I don't think any higher than B+ is good for a pokemon where its most dominant trait is providing utility more so than offensive traits. 3 attacks / healing wish or 3 attacks / softboiled is cool but I guess is there any real merit into raising it higher.
I know I mentioned Roar Suicune but I think we can go ahead and take that out and either keep it as Calm Mind or just call it Defensive.
Utility Attacker M-Gross I think should be broken down into Rock Polish / Agility and Hone Claws. RP / Agility being A+ and Hone Claws being A.
I think we can bump hydreigon scarf to B, it's not as bad as I thought it would be judging by all the other B- ranked sets and mons so I can agree with a bump for that if people want that.
Just call M-Manectric Revenge Killer. That's generally its main use on most teams and the notion of "Pivot" is very subjective and revenge killers are generally momentum grabbers to begin with.
I think Offensive SD M-Scizor should go down to A. Here's the thing, it's not a bad set, but it's best set right now in the meta is the bulky one. So offensive SD comes with the opportunity cost that you're not running this fat as hell steel type that a lot of teams will actually use over M-Gross since it can soft check a TON of stuff on offense and balanced in general. With that said the defensive sets / utility sets of M-Scizor should go down to B+. Defog M-Scizor I find is somewhat of a waste of M-Scizors real potential in the metagame these days when it can benefit itself as a pivot with both offensive and defensive utility that once again makes the bulky SD set very solid on just about any kind of team.
Implementing pretty much all of these changes here soon.
However, in regard to Sunny Day M-Houndoom, I wanted to give the set a try to see if it was actually useful or not. Here's a replay of me vs. Cased (he's on an alt) where I use Sunny Day M-Houndoom.
So, basically what I think the biggest thing the Sunny Day set brings to M-Doom is the opportunity to "set up" on stuff it couldn't normally set up on. I can add some calcs to prove my point, but in the replay Doom sets up on Rotom-W, making it a huge threat to the rest of my opp's team.
However, despite the fact that the set worked pretty well in the battle, it is a HUGE pain in the ass to build around. Fire/Grass coverage is pretty great, as evidenced by CharY, but Doom is already strapped for moveslots as it is, and choosing that 4th slot is going to leave you walled by something common (i.e. M-Alt if running Dark Pulse, Heatran if running Sludge Bomb, I'm sure there are others). Also, the fact that the main target of the set (Keldeo) is often paired with ScarfTar/Sand is a headache to say the least. Ultimately, I found myself wondering why I wasn't using the NP set because the SD set just didn't seem worth it, especially considering the fact that Solar Power quickly drains HP, which compounds with Doom's weakness to SR and makes it even more difficult to set up. Pairing with Chloro Venu seems like it could work on paper to check fairies like Azu and M-Alt, but the fact that you only have four turns after you get up Sunny Day makes pulling off this pair infinitely more difficult than the CharY/Venu core that's been running around lately. So, yeah, I'm all for unranking Sunny Day Houndoom unless someone else has replays/proof of its effectiveness.
One of the things I've been trying to do when I skim the rankings -- which I think is harder than making an argument for sets to move up or down -- is to find any missing sets. Haven't had much luck lately but I guess I should ask if it's worth ranking any other Mega Aerodactyl sets? I know it has a Roost / Stallbreaker set though I'm not sure how good it is and I know some also run Hone Claws over 4 attacks though I'm not sure that's a big enough difference to warrant a new set.
The other thing I want to bring up is potentially moving Rock Polish Mega Diancie to A+. I'll do a quick comparison to the Protect + 3 Attacks set which is A+ rank at the moment:
Protect + 3 Attacks has the added benefits of a free Mega Evolution, the ability to scout choice users and a better speed tier. On the other hand, Rock Polish has more power making it harder to wall / switch into, and the ability to take advantage of a free turn to set up Rock Polish whereas Protect + 3 Attacks will just fire off an attack predicting the switch-in. Also Rock Polish has slightly more bulk which is actually pretty cool for a better shot to survive some priority moves like Azu's Aqua Jet. On top of that it isn't super hard to find a turn to Mega Evolve without much fear considering we have Tornadus-Therian running around everywhere and it also sets up for free against Talonflame and certain variants of Heatran as well among other things. In short it's harder for bulkier builds to switch into, HP [Fire] is less detrimental to its speed tier since its running sub-max anyway, and it can sweep against offense better (not more easily!) given the opportunity.
Houndoom can also run Nasty Plot + HP grass, allowing it to get past all of its checks at +2, and it's a more effective boosting option than sunny day. Unless I'm missing something, you shouldn't rank SunnyBeamer Houndoom.
One of the things I've been trying to do when I skim the rankings -- which I think is harder than making an argument for sets to move up or down -- is to find any missing sets. Haven't had much luck lately but I guess I should ask if it's worth ranking any other Mega Aerodactyl sets? I know it has a Roost / Stallbreaker set though I'm not sure how good it is and I know some also run Hone Claws over 4 attacks though I'm not sure that's a big enough difference to warrant a new set.
The other thing I want to bring up is potentially moving Rock Polish Mega Diancie to A+. I'll do a quick comparison to the Protect + 3 Attacks set which is A+ rank at the moment:
Protect + 3 Attacks has the added benefits of a free Mega Evolution, the ability to scout choice users and a better speed tier. On the other hand, Rock Polish has more power making it harder to wall / switch into, and the ability to take advantage of a free turn to set up Rock Polish whereas Protect + 3 Attacks will just fire off an attack predicting the switch-in. Also Rock Polish has slightly more bulk which is actually pretty cool for a better shot to survive some priority moves like Azu's Aqua Jet. On top of that it isn't super hard to find a turn to Mega Evolve without much fear considering we have Tornadus-Therian running around everywhere and it also sets up for free against Talonflame and certain variants of Heatran as well among other things. In short it's harder for bulkier builds to switch into, HP [Fire] is less detrimental to its speed tier since its running sub-max anyway, and it can sweep against offense better (not more easily!) given the opportunity.
Yeah M-Aero is weird cause it really doesn't fall under a very specific role besides being a revenge killer tbh. My two cents though, I wouldn't use M-Aero as a stall-breaker. Roost / 3 attacks still falls under Revenge Killer same with Taunt / 3 attacks. I don't think stall-breaker M-Aero is a good set honestly lol. It's already so strapped for coverage moves to begin with and I'm pretty sure 9/10 you're gonna just benefit from using M-Aero as a more offensive role or with some HP investment taken out of attack with like pursuit / roost / stone edge / coverage. I'm also sort of curious as to what stall will it ever break? You don't really threaten heavy stall other than the most passive of stall that has its own problems more than M-Aero, you're not stallbreaking a stall build with waters in it cause you'll be pressured as hell by things like Suicune and Slowbro and it's not like M-Aero is that bulky. The only thing it has is speed so it can get the jump on faster stuff being used on stall but stall isn't exactly going to be having something very fast falling under a support role which the majority of the team will be. I guess you can rank it for the sake of if someone really wants to use it but I definitely wouldn't rank it high at all. Its just so good at its offensive role that you're better off using that role and say, more legitimate stall-breakers like Mew and Manaphy, than to try and force a role on it that I personally don't think it should be trying to fulfill.
I think RP M-Diancie requires a bit more team support but is a very strong set so I guess I can see a case going to A+.
