Resource ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V4 (See Post #229: Page 10)

[bludz]

Also curious what you guys think of Keldeo's Calm Mind set rising from A to A+

Specs is certainly the best set but that doesn't mean it can't share a rank with another set.

Keep in mind that Calm Mind encompasses CM + 3 attacks and whatever other variants there are outside of Sub CM.

 

[Karxrida]

Totally behind CM going up. I've seen SubCM fuck teams up by exploiting good lead match-ups and it's just really scary in general behind a Sub.

I also think Specs Raikou should drop. Choice-locked Electic are pretty ass due to being easily walled after the item reveal, requiring you to be a prediction God to utilize effectively.

 

[Martin]

Totally behind CM going up. I've seen SubCM fuck teams up by exploiting good lead match-ups and it's just really scary in general behind a Sub.

This doesn't encompass SubCM. This is CM+3 attacks, CM+Taunt etc.

Keep in mind that Calm Mind encompasses CM + 3 attacks and whatever other variants there are outside of Sub CM.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

That means Sub CM in addition to other CM sets.

 

[bludz]

Yeah I worded it poorly my fault. I meant that Calm Mind was specifically named thusly so it didn't only refer to SubCM but all CM variants.

 

[micahclay]

I think it should definitely rise. Keldeo forces a ton of switches, so it's not too hard for it to set up. There's not much that can handle at at +1, especially when it has the ability to switch moves.

 

[AM]

CM Keldeo to A+ sounds good to me :o

 

[blank]

I'm down with CM Keldeo moving up. While it kinda sucks that Sub + CM gets walled by lots of stuff, those things are usually pretty easy to take care of TBH. Once those things are taken care of, Keldeo is capable of just plain shredding balanced builds, and of course being behind a Sub means it can take on speedier, offensive threats a bit better as well. CM 3 attacks Keldeo loses the edge Sub provides, but it gains another coverage move. Honestly, this is pretty self explanatory, but I think when we consider CM as an umbrella over both CM variants (due to them being VERY similar) & we look at just how good Keldeo is in general, putting CM at A+ is fair.

edit: Also, some more opinions on Defensive Suicune would be nice n_n

 

[bludz]

Okay update time.

Keldeo Calm Mind A -> A+
Azumarill Assault Vest A -> A-
Starmie Defensive A -> A-
Starmie Offensive A- -> A
Raikou Choice Specs A- -> B+
Alakazam Focus Sash B+ -> B
Scizor Swords Dance above CB, but still B
Suicune Defensive Unranked -> B

So Starmie wasn't on the slate but in this metagame the defensive set is taken advantage of by a lot and with balance being not quite as good just felt necessary to drop. Offensive on the other hand boasts a nice speed tier and solid coverage so it moved up since it applies the type of pressure that offensive teams want and has a few notable advantages over Latios/Latias. We decided to swap Scizor's sets based on the fact that CB while good is predictable and leaves you in troublesome situations when you're locked into a move, while SD encompasses a wider variety of sets such as offensive LO and bulky SD (mini mega Scizor) which are pretty good.

New discussion slate:
Clefable Support S -> A+
Clefable Unaware A+ -> S
Latios Choice Scarf A -> A-
Mega Gyarados Taunt/Sub + 2 Atks A+ -> A
Gengar Hex A- -> B+

Basically Clefable's Support set is the Magic Guard set but without Calm Mind. Simply doesn't put on the same amount of pressure as CM Clef so team thinks it might be worth discussing for a drop. Alternatively Unaware Clef walls a ton of stuff but still suffers from hazards and below average bulk so we want to see discussion on it. Scarf Latios was nominated to drop by me on the premise that it despises being choice locked for a plethora of reasons such as pursuit, wallable STABs and being choice locked into Defog sucks ass. Gyarados nom'd to drop on the fact that 3 Atks seems to be the better set since there are a ton of stallbreakers out there and it kinda needs the coverage move so it is walled by fewer things. Gengar's Hex set is a solid set no doubt but really fits only on certain builds and kinda needs to be built around in some sense while lacking the same general utility against offense and being more matchup based in general especially against certain slower teams.

ALSO Dragonite's DD set is still up for discussion to rise to B+

Feel free to agree or disagree with any of the discussion point nominations and be sure to provide reasoning that the council members can use when debating each other.

 

[AM]

Unaware Clef being worn down is this huge over exaggeration lol when 1. you need a good 2+ Spikes + Rock to wear it down effectively 2. has clerical support to top it off

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-83951

This was an Stour game yesterday between me and Hikari. What should be taken away from this is that Hikaris Unaware Clefable was able to support its team to the point where it necessitated a lot of offensive pressure to keep things under control, stopped my Slowbro from winning through Calm Mind (granted it was poisoned but the point still stands), was able to scout Heatrans set for an appropriate switch, and even make sure Manaphy could come in multiple times to punish slower builds. The unaware set is a staple on defensive builds for its ability to be one of the most anti-offensive counter measures in the game and being able to slow down the likes of Manaphy, Serperior, Garchomp, Weavile in one slot is kind of nuts when Unaware runs variants such as Wish / CM, Thunder Wave, and the classic set. Think S is a given.

Support doesn't have the prowess that CM or Unaware has. Nothing else needs to be said.

Scarf Latios is a very team specific asset one that is the result of threat control that is often times shaky, unreliable, and to some degree not even necessary. I can explain more but Scarf Latios is kind of a one hit wonder.

Hex Gar is again, too team specific. Although there's different variants you can utilize it only punishes super passive builds and normally needs Substitue to be successful or have any remote chance.

Um....Two attacks M-Gyarados should drop to A- lol but like if you're gonna drop that to A-, Scarf Latios is gonna be a B+ set. M-Gyarados wants 3 coverage moves and a secondary partner to break stall and bulky builds. Saying A- cause it's not really more effective than something like AV Azu.

 

[bludz]

Updated to reflect the VR changes. I just dropped / bumped up all sets by one subrank so I guess if you think stuff like Support Altaria should remain in A+ then that can be a discussion point or whatever.

Edit: I guess Gyarados is off the slate lol but any more opinions on the others would be nice

 

[Drop]

This is something that isn't seen too often but I think it deserves a mention (first posted in Creative and Underrated sets here I believe).

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Waterfall

Cropert works like the original cro-pokemon, Suicune, but with a physical attack instead of a special one. Basically this is a really cool win condition that can set up on a ton of stuff (especially doing well vs. stall if the opposing team lacks an Unaware Pokemon or grass-type) while taking pretty much no damage due its fantastic bulk. Unfortunately Rest is the best recovery that Swampert gets but it's still quite potent.

Two of the main things setting it apart from Suicune is the Ground type and the fact that it's a Mega. The first lets it beat Electric types like Thundurus and Manectric effortlessly (without HP Grass/Gknot). Being a Mega also means getting tricked is not an issue, unlike with Crocune which hates getting Choice-locked.

I haven't really used it myself but I've seen other experienced players using it with a good degree of success. I'm also pretty new to things like this so I'm not sure where to put it, as long as it goes somewhere in the ranking.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Oh that's actually a set I've played around with a bit and seen very good success as a stall wincon via my friend OrdA.

I remember when we talked about Swampert initially we decided not to rank that and other spdef sets. Overall it's really niche, not all that great itself, and just not something we found worthy of ranking. Sorry :(

 

[Clone]

Scarf latios is honestly mediocre because LO is just eons better (pun intended) in almoat every way. Like, the only real reason I would ever use it is if I made a team and I realized that I was insanely weak to DD zard x or something that fast that latios beats. A drop seems reasonable.

Unaware CM clef is really the only unaware clef set that should be S (if even that) because while clef stops shit it doesn't do anything back; if it goes t wave it loses to scald burns and it it goes heal bell then any one of it's checks can switch in for free. Its a good set but mg cm is the only s rank set in my honest opinion.

 

[bludz]

Update time.

Clefable Support S -> A+ (and below Unaware)
Talonflame Offensive Swords Dance -> above Specially Defensive
Latios Choice Scarf A -> A-
Gengar Hex A- -> B+

Team agreed that SD Talon is better than Spdef at this point. Granted this sort of ignores the versatility of Talon as a pokemon considering specially defensive SD is a solid set lol. Others have been explained a bit.

New slate is small but I will encourage anyone to make your own nominations whenever you want

Dragonite Dragon Dance B -> B+ (still)
Gastrodon Curse Unranked -> C+/B-

 

[Martin]

I'll keep this reasonably short as I can't be f*cked to type for long and I have to quench my newfound addiction to rhythm games.

I've heard good things about the curse Gastro set on semi-stall. However, it just seems so team-specific that I can't really see it in B- simply because the pure defensive set seems more consistent most of the time.

DDnite is seriously underrated. I may get some flack for saying this (I honestly don't know how much), but I personally think that it is better than BandNite in the current meta due to its better matchup v.s. offense than the band set. I think what made the band set so good before the shift was its ability to be a huge threat balance and stall with its absurd power, but, even if you ignore the offense shift, stall has started to adapt to the point where the band set has a harder time pulling it apart than it did in the past (e.g. Shedinja cockblocking anything other than Fire Punch and forcing it out with the threat of a wisp, or if it comes in after something faints to Fire Punch it can bust its sash to cripple Dragonite). DD's ability to set up to a point where it is just plain hard for offense to deal with in conjunction with its ability absorb a wisp with its lum/use Outrage 4-6 times without worrying about confusion and its access to E-Speed allowing it to take out priority users and anything faster than +1 D-nite make it particularly threatening to offensive teams. I'm not saying band should move down to B, but IMO DD should be moved to B+ and slotted above CB. This is just me, and I respect that a lot of people will probably disagree with me on this.

 

[Volteli]

First post here, hope I get it right.

New slate is small but I will encourage anyone to make your own nominations whenever you want

I see that Mega Lopunny has no sets, literally just aying A+. So I'd like to make two noms for it.

Mega Lopunny All Out Attacker -> A+

Mega Lopunny is at it's best when it can hit hard and it can hit pretty much anything it wants. With a combination of High Jump Kick / Return (Frustration) / Ice Punch / Fake Out it is almost always guaranteed a Mega Evo, even if it is going to switch out the turn after. It hits things very hard too, with bulky psychics and fairies being the only thing you really want to switch in to this monster. There's also more options like Thunder Punch, Power-Up-Punch and Drain Punch.It has unprecedented coverage vs. everything (except shedinja) and also shits on offense. Flagship set, it's where it belongs.

Mega Lopunny Substitute -> A / A-

Although you have a large element of surprise with Subsitute Mega Lopunny losing Fake Out for the free Mega Evo and Ice Punch for Chomp / Lando / Hippo hurts a lot. In return you get Substitute which it can set up on things to avoid status and set it up on the switch, and Encore / Baton Pass depending on the team. Encore helps you against things like Celebi (or anything else that it doesn't like facing that much), being able to pass to a Pursuiter or something that can hit it harder without risk of being KO'd, or Baton Pass. I've recently been running a core of Sub Mega Lop / TG Manaphy / LO Gengar and being able to BP a Sub into one of those monsters is a force to be reckoned with. Power-Up-Punch also deserves a special mention as it can help Lop boost incredibly quickly, even more so when behind a sub.. Another downside of course is Sub wearing you down quite a bit, so often Healing Wish / Wishpass is needed to keep Mega Lop healthy. It's more team specific, but when it works it can be deadly.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Maybe we should atleast one set for Mega Lopunny? :P

And rock polish tyrantrum? Choice scarf Victini?

 

[bludz]

Haha the Mega Lopunny thing was because of an argument on whether it should actually have 2 sets or not. Majority thought it should only have one set and so it ended up that way as a joke. I'll be listing its one set as Physical Sweeper. We had a second set called utility which was basically supposed to encompass non AoA sets but they it was hard to categorize them all the same and most Lopunny sets do play pretty similarly with SubPass being the real lone exception but still falling under the category of Physical Sweeper

I have never heard of RP Tyrantrum being used effectively and the ranking team sort of agreed not to rank Scarf Victini since it sorta sucks although we could potentially rank it

 

[bludz]

Okay ladies and gentlemen we have another update.

Hoopa U Choice Scarf A+ -> A
Landorus-T Defensive A -> A+
Mega Diancie Calm Mind A- -> B+
Starmie Defensive B+ -> A-
Jirachi Choice Scarf B+ -> A-
Latios Choice Specs B+ -> Unranked
Slowking Defensive & Specially Defensive Consolidated into one set, B rank currently

For a change of pace I'm going to drop some of our chat logs so you can get an idea of why we made these choices. It's a little more insight than me giving you a brief recap. I didn't include every single line just the important stuff.

Hoopa U Choice Scarf

logs

[3:44:02 PM] urban: i like scarf keld in A+ again
[3:44:08 PM] urban: its in A rn

and this sort of lead to:

[3:48:00 PM] urban: the reason i like scarf keld in a+ is cause like scarf hoopa is also A+
[3:48:09 PM] m00ns: well
[3:48:11 PM] m00ns: hoopa is S rank
[3:48:14 PM] m00ns: keldeo is A+
[3:48:19 PM] bludz: yeah but
[3:48:24 PM] bludz: its still saying
[3:48:26 PM] bludz: scarf hoopa > scarf keld
[3:48:28 PM] bludz: to have it that way
[3:49:22 PM] bludz: i'd be down to move scarf hoopa down to A
[3:49:23 PM] bludz: also
[3:49:31 PM] bludz: im more inclined to do that tbh
[3:49:32 PM] urban: that would be fine with me as well
[3:49:41 PM] bludz: or agree with it rather
[3:49:42 PM] m00ns: I mean I personally agree
[3:50:03 PM] bludz: the other thing is
[3:50:08 PM] bludz: i dont really think scarf keld > scarf chomp
[3:50:11 PM] bludz: in all honesty
[3:50:21 PM] m00ns: i think scarf keld and chomp are equal in terms of viability honestly
[3:50:21 PM] urban: and how they're exploitable
[3:50:27 PM] urban: i agree with m00ns
[3:50:28 PM] bludz: yeah exactly i thikn theyre equal

and we have a gem here later

[3:55:50 PM] AM: scarf hoopa sucks

Specs Latios

logs

[3:56:08 PM] urban: is specs latias
[3:56:14 PM] urban: really worth b+
[3:56:21 PM] bludz: urban i didnt want to rank it
[3:56:22 PM] bludz: at all
[3:56:23 PM] bludz: lol
[3:56:26 PM] AM: specs latias?
[3:56:29 PM] bludz: latios
[3:56:30 PM] urban: latios
[3:56:30 PM] AM: wtf is that hot shit
[3:56:33 PM] AM: lol
[3:56:37 PM] AM: specs latios is overrated
[3:56:40 PM] m00ns: i think it's fine in
[3:56:41 PM] m00ns: b+
[3:56:50 PM] AM: why would I use that when
[3:56:54 PM] AM: CM and 3 attacks exist
[3:57:13 PM] urban: and if you want to trick shit, scarf is better
[3:57:17 PM] urban: or gothitelle
[3:57:21 PM] m00ns: ehh
[3:57:22 PM] m00ns: i see
[3:57:27 PM] m00ns: where you guys are coming from tbh
[3:57:33 PM] m00ns: i'm down w/
[3:57:36 PM] m00ns: removing specs latios

Scarf Jirachi

logs

[4:06:32 PM] AM: lol why is scarf b+
[4:06:37 PM] urban: yes, that's needed
[4:06:39 PM] urban: lol
[4:06:54 PM] urban: scarf rachi is not two subraks
[4:07:01 PM] urban: below scarf keld or chomp
[4:07:04 PM] bludz: yea
[4:07:07 PM] AM: that set is a pinnacle on offense for being one of the few switch ins to gard + lati at the same time on offense

Defensive Starmie

logs

[4:08:21 PM] urban: why is def mie
[4:08:23 PM] urban: B+
[4:08:49 PM] bludz: i ended up moving its set down and then it dropped in the rankings
[4:08:54 PM] AM: lol
[4:08:55 PM] bludz: so maybe both should be A-
[4:09:00 PM] urban: yes
[4:09:00 PM] bludz: defensive starmie A-?
[4:09:03 PM] urban: both are A-
[4:09:08 PM] urban: like def mie
[4:09:08 PM] AM: defensive starmie is ok
[4:09:08 PM] m00ns: what is defensive starmie at right now
[4:09:11 PM] bludz: B+
[4:09:13 PM] AM: both are fine in the same rank
[4:09:16 PM] m00ns: idc what it goes to tbh
[4:09:17 PM] Urban: is such a splashable mon for spike stacking alance
[4:09:18 PM] m00ns: i personally think
[4:09:22 PM] m00ns: starmie is only good cause
[4:09:23 PM] m00ns: it's like
[4:09:24 PM] AM: yeah what urban said
[4:09:25 PM] m00ns: the only option
[4:09:26 PM] m00ns: lmfao
[4:09:26 PM] bludz: its sorta bad in this metagame but like
[4:09:31 PM] bludz: what it does for those spike stacking balance teams
[4:09:35 PM] urban: really its the only option yes
[4:09:35 PM] urban: lol
[4:09:36 PM] bludz: cnat be replicated
[4:09:38 PM] m00ns: there aren't many other good hazard removal pokemon to choose from

Now for some discussion points:
Hoopa U Nasty Plot A -> A-
reasoning: why would you not run mixed?

Heatran Stallbreaker A -> A+

logs

[4:00:21 PM] bludz: what do you guys think about
[4:00:24 PM] bludz: stallbreaker tran in A+
[4:00:26 PM] bludz: too much right?
[4:00:34 PM] m00ns: i'm down w/ it
[4:00:35 PM] urban: yeah, that's too high
[4:00:38 PM] bludz: like my thing is
[4:00:41 PM] bludz: we have a ton of stallbreakers
[4:00:46 PM] bludz: yet heatran is retardedly consistent
[4:00:50 PM] m00ns: I've been playing around with stallbreaker tran a lot lately
[4:00:51 PM] bludz: you cant really pack an answer on stall
[4:00:54 PM] m00ns: it's just so consistent exactly
[4:00:56 PM] m00ns: i like it a lot

Hippowdon Specially Defensive A -> A+

logs

[4:01:08 PM] bludz: and
[4:01:11 PM] bludz: spdef hippo
[4:01:14 PM] bludz: same placement?
[4:01:15 PM] bludz: in A
[4:01:19 PM] bludz: or can we bump it
[4:01:23 PM] bludz: up;
[4:01:44 PM] urban: eh, i could see a rise
[4:01:56 PM] m00ns: neutral on that
[4:01:57 PM] urban: but a draw of hippo for me
[4:02:02 PM] m00ns: cause i literally never use hippo
[4:02:02 PM] m00ns: tbh
[4:02:04 PM] urban: is countering zard x
[4:02:07 PM] bludz: ye
[4:02:07 PM] bludz: very true
[4:02:13 PM] urban: and you cant do that with spdef
[4:02:13 PM] bludz: i mean the flipside being
[4:02:17 PM] bludz: it counters electrics
[4:02:20 PM] bludz: a lot better
[4:02:28 PM] bludz: you dont have to worry about a layer of spikes
[4:02:29 PM] urban: like the only one that's relevant
[4:02:32 PM] urban: is thundy
[4:02:36 PM] bludz: er
[4:02:36 PM] urban: and like gk
[4:02:40 PM] urban: still bops you
[4:02:41 PM] bludz: well gk beats it anyway
[4:02:48 PM] bludz: but how are mane and raik not relevant o.o
[4:02:49 PM] m00ns: all the electrics are still good nowadays tho
[4:02:51 PM] m00ns: mane and raik
[4:02:53 PM] m00ns: are super good lmfao
[4:02:57 PM] urban: hp ice
[4:03:02 PM] urban: does nothing to mixed
[4:03:05 PM] bludz: yeah but im saying
[4:03:08 PM] bludz: you still have to keep it at full hp
[4:03:17 PM] bludz: or worry about the chip dmg more
[4:03:25 PM] bludz: i guess yea thund is the primary thing tho
[4:03:26 PM] bludz: no doubt
[4:03:41 PM] urban: yeah, i can kind of see that
[4:03:44 PM] urban: but teams with hippo
[4:03:52 PM] urban: usually have solid hazard removal and stuff
[4:03:57 PM] bludz: also checks like lo torn and mega diancie which are annoying af
[4:04:00 PM] urban: so you can mitigate that to an extent

 

[Jaguar360]

I won't say much since I haven't been playing lately, but I think Nasty Plot Hoopa0U could possibly stay where it is on the grounds of SubSalac. Salac Berry makes it a lot more useful as offense since it has sweeping potential and it still wallbreaks well enough since +2 Hoopa-U is threatening even the loss of a coverage move.

I do think that Hoopa-C might be a bit more consistent in this role because of STAB Shadow Ball + Focus Blast, but DPulse + Psyshock/Focus Blast is still good enough for Hoopa-U to do its thing usually and the base 80 speed vs. 70 matters since it gets to outspeed Mega Manectric, Mega Lop and Scarftran.

But if that's not enough then I agree with dropping Nasty Plot to A- since Sub + 3 Attacks and All-out-Attacker can do just as good of a job without taking a turn to set up.

 

[Martin]

I won't say much since I haven't been playing lately, but I think Nasty Plot Hoopa0U could possibly stay where it is on the grounds of SubSalac. Salac Berry makes it a lot more useful as offense since it has sweeping potential and it still wallbreaks well enough since +2 Hoopa-U is threatening even the loss of a coverage move.

I do think that Hoopa-C might be a bit more consistent in this role because of STAB Shadow Ball + Focus Blast, but DPulse + Psyshock/Focus Blast is still good enough for Hoopa-U to do its thing usually and the base 80 speed vs. 70 matters since it gets to outspeed Mega Manectric, Mega Lop and Scarftran.

But if that's not enough then I agree with dropping Nasty Plot to A- since Sub + 3 Attacks and All-out-Attacker can do just as good of a job without taking a turn to set up.

I think the main problem with SubSalac Hoopa-U is that, while Magician can certainly be great for it (e.g. stealing a choice item from something, taking lefties/sitrus etc.) it is often completely detrimental to the key purpose of SubSalac on anything (i.e. to clean up or rip a hole through half of the opposing team mid-game) as taking a life orb leaves you with only 1-2 attacks (which ruins your sweep for rather obvious reasons). IMO, Salac isn't enough to keep it up, as really it has a hard time wallbreaking w/o 4 attacks (and its not exactly easy to set up with Hoopa despite the switches it forces), and the scarf set does cleaning just as well without needing to get down to 25%. I think that, if it didn't have Magician, SubSalac would be stupendously good, but it is kinda ruined by it tbch.

 

[AM]

4 attacks Life Orb is like a million times better on Hoopa-U considering you're still 2hkoing or blowing back all your targets anyways.

reasoning: why would you not run mixed?

That's the thing, there isn't much reason to run this other than scarf when the mixed LO set just impales balance like it's nothing.

Um SpDef Hippo is nice until you realize, as urban said, you lose one of its main techs in checking Zard-X. If you go hard SpDef you just lost your Zard-X check. That's not really appealing to me when I can just go mixed and consolidate more role compression.

Also bludz statement in it checking M-Diancie and Torn-T is a bit exaggerated when M-Diancies Moonblast still comes extremely close to 2hkoing, so spikes will just certify that, and Torn-T being a check is on the fact that you both are hitting your moves in Stone Edge and Hurricane lol. The loss of checking Zard-X is pretty bad to me which is why I prefer going mixed or even hard defense and think it's going to be better.

 

[GlassVeins]

Hey, quick question: why isn't sub+PuP m-lopunny ranked? it helps it avoid status and gives it more staying power against bulkier teams, if i'm not mistaken. is it not different enough from the standard set?

 

[Martin]

Hey, quick question: why isn't sub+PuP m-lopunny ranked? it helps it avoid status and gives it more staying power against bulkier teams, if i'm not mistaken. is it not different enough from the standard set?

Bludz indirectly commented on this a few posts ago. I'll quote it for u:

Haha the Mega Lopunny thing was because of an argument on whether it should actually have 2 sets or not. Majority thought it should only have one set and so it ended up that way as a joke. I'll be listing its one set as Physical Sweeper. We had a second set called utility which was basically supposed to encompass non AoA sets but they it was hard to categorize them all the same and most Lopunny sets do play pretty similarly with SubPass being the real lone exception but still falling under the category of Physical Sweeper