Resource ORAS OU Sets Viability Rankings V4 (See Post #229: Page 10)

[Martin]

Honestly I think that SpD Tran should just be renamed "Utility" in this meta. It allows for you to encompass SpD Tran and max HP/Spe variants (as well as anything in-between) without leaving the list cluttered (because both are obviously relevant sets but are still too similar in role to split into separate imho).

 

[Ramses]

i believe garchomp's offensive set should solely be a+ it's really good rn and one of the most scariest threats to face

it's no secret that the tankchomp set just isn't really good anymore and it's more or less been completely encompassed by defensive landorus-t who's subjectively better at defensive prowess than tankchomp is. sure it checks bisharp better, but that's about it and countermeasures to sharp such as resttalk keld, msciz, mdiancie, mega gyara (it's good rn), etc are all a thing so it's not like a team can't run defensive lando and not have some counterplay to bisharp as well if so you did should rethink the build

so defensive garchomp -> A, offensive is just so much better and carves something that differentiates the most from lando

 

[bludz]

Ok first time synchronizing the update with this and VR thread, call me Umbreon

Other than the VR changes we have also made set additions / moves / changes:

Hoopa-Unbound
Choice Specs is the top set in S
Choice Band is S
Life Orb is A+
Choice Scarf is A+

Rotom-Wash
Defensive Utility renamed to Utility Pivot

Terrakion
Choice Scarf moved to A-
SD remains in B+

Garchomp
Offensive (renamed from Offensive Stealth Rock) moved to the top set in A+ over Tank

Tyranitar
Choice Band moved above support, into A

Tangrowth
Physically defensive is now the top set, moved to B+

Latias
Removed the Defensive support set

Starmie
Defensive to B+

Mega Scizor
Bulky SD moved above Offensive SD

Slowking
Calm Mind to B, top set
Defensive remains in B-
AV moved to B-

Regarding these changes:

USE OFFENSIVE GARCHOMP. It's really good and easily better than Tank Chomp.

Band Tyranitar gets the nod to A because few teams carry a solid Rock type resist, the most common switch-ins being stuff like Ferrothorn, Lando-T, Keldeo, etc which all take big chunks.

Offensive Scizor made its imprint on the metagame. Now a lot of Heatrans are fast and so on, so Bulky SD is back to the top set because it outlasts its checks and counters

Slowking just needed a revamp since AV isnt the best set any more. Same with Tangrowth

 

[Martin]

AM Edit: Did the points in bullet points

Just out of interest (because there was a little bit of discussion - albeit not much) on this, but what was the conclusion about Heatran? I don't mean to question/argue any decisions, but I'm just wondering about the reasoning behind utility Heatran remaining named SpD as opposed renaming it.

Also I was just going through and noticed that there are a number of mistakes with regards to the stuff which shifted in the main VR. These are all simple things where you forgot to change the text under the Pokémon and I can understand why you missed them, but when I noticed it for Amoonguss I combed through the changelog and spotted all of these. I've listed them below to save you a little time with updating.

• Rotom-W's set is still listed as A despite the Rotom-W heading being under A+
  
• Amoonguss' set is still listed as B+ despite the Amoonguss heading being under A-
• Mega Latias' sets are both listed as A- despite it having moved to A
• Chansey's Blob set is listed in B despite Chansey being in B+ (only set)
• Defensive Gourgeist-XL is listed as C despite Gourgeist-XL being D
• Sticky Web Shuckle is listed as C despite Shuckle being D

 

[AM]

Clefables Life Orb variant has been put at A-. It encompasses any Life Orb variant and was agreed upon to put it but was forgotten during transistion.

 

[Kutscher]

i think we can switch choice band and LO hoopa-u places, i don't get all the hype on the choices sets, but LO is definetly better than band, while you don't have to predict that much and spam HF with band, the LO have more versatility so you can switch moves, this is way better to destroy slower teams, than having to switch every time you attack.

 

[Vert]

the problem with life orb is you really can't abuse hoopa's special bulk, and while recoil takes only 9% from hoopa, just take a look at how you'll want every percentage point you can get. its bulk is right on the border (w/ or w/o the recoil) in terms of special knock out(s):

some common calcs

+2 252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 235-277 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound in Sun: 252-297 (83.7 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
168+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 278-330 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound in Rain: 286-337 (95 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 288-342 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252+ SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 238-282 (79 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 229-270 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa Unbound: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it can live some physical attacks as well such as garchomp's earthquake and m-aerodactyl's stone edge, but you might not even to deal with that begin with because life orb uses a minus defense nature. while it is true the coverage is sweet and all, i would try dread plate or expert belt in this metagame over life orb if i want to switch moves, but still hit hard. band is even more worthy of s rank at the moment because of how prevalent specs is so you might bring the wrong check in and vice versa. prediction isn't a big deal because hyperspace king and zen king is just pounding the shit out of everything. i can definitely see where you are coming from man, but it works differently in practice

p.s. we need more emojis 0.0

 

[Efficacious]

I'd like to nominate SubSeed Serperior as a set (A- or B+)
Idk if I need evidence or if I can't nominate, but I'll just assume those are false.

SubSeed Serperior = Leech Seed/Sub/Leaf Storm/HP Fire w/ Lefties or Big Root
It breaks stall (most notably it can beat Chansey if you get up a leech seed).

Thanks.

 

[Martin]

I'd like to nominate SubSeed Serperior as a set (A- or B+)
Idk if I need evidence or if I can't nominate, but I'll just assume those are false.

SubSeed Serperior = Leech Seed/Sub/Leaf Storm/HP Fire w/ Lefties or Big Root
It breaks stall (most notably it can beat Chansey if you get up a leech seed).

Thanks.

While I agree that SubSeed should be ranked, you need to give your post some substance rather than a one-liner. Also the reasoning is pretty crap because Taunt beats chansy anyway (its more for its ability to cheese past stuff like Heatran and general stallbreaking (the latter you said in your post) without sacrificing hp fire for hp ground.

Also bludz the sprites are broken just like what has been going on in a buttload of threads.

 

[Efficacious]

While I agree that SubSeed should be ranked, you need to give your post some substance rather than a one-liner. Also the reasoning is pretty crap because Taunt beats chansy anyway (its more for its ability to cheese past stuff like Heatran and general stallbreaking (the latter you said in your post) without sacrificing hp fire for hp ground.

Also bludz the sprites are broken just like what has been going on in a buttload of threads.

Lol I wrote what I could in only two minutes. Anyway I might test it and post the replays here; sorry for the one liner I just wanted to nominate Serperior.

Also how about Utility mega gyarados/regular gyarados? It's got Intimidate/mold breaker + twave/toxic and dragon tail for phasing. True it lacks recovery but rest talk is not all that bad.

How about SD Weavile / Regenerator Reuniculus / Anti-Lead Empoleon (idk about regen blob but SD Weavile is quite good)

 

[jvl101993]

Lol I wrote what I could in only two minutes. Anyway I might test it and post the replays here; sorry for the one liner I just wanted to nominate Serperior.

Also how about Utility mega gyarados/regular gyarados? It's got Intimidate/mold breaker + twave/toxic and dragon tail for phasing. True it lacks recovery but rest talk is not all that bad.

How about SD Weavile / Regenerator Reuniculus / Anti-Lead Empoleon (idk about regen blob but SD Weavile is quite good)

SD Weavile is encompassed in LO, as the last move usually goes between SD, Low Kick, Poison Jab, and Pursuit.

To avoid being a one-liner or one sentence post, I'll elaborate on SubSeed Serp. SubSeed works, but I wouldn't put it too close to A rank (as in one subrank below A rank, where Serp resides). Taunt + Leftovers lets it perform a similar role in beating some of the fatter mons (Chansey and other common Stall mons) with one moveslot (both Sub and Taunt help prevent status, while Lefties gives a lesser form of recovery, and I think Leftovers is arguably the best item on most sets). One main reason why I'd put it below the main set (which encompasses Taunt, Glare, Sub, etc.) is because SubSeed takes longer to beat the same mons that Taunt would (prevents recovery, and while you can Leaf Storm on their forced recovery turns, you can miss or run out of Leaf Storms). The set also doesn't work against Magic Guard Clefable variants, which are immune to Leech Seed (while Taunt variants can avoid being paralyzed by T-Wave and stops it from boosting, though neither Taunt nor SubSeed variants beat Flamethrower or Ice Beam variants).

It's definitely a usable set and has longevity, but it's not as efficient in beating the mons. I think B+ or B is a good place to start for SubSeed, but I don't think it's quite an A- set.

Sorry for lack of clarity: this was on mobile.

 

[AM]

Double Dance Lando-T definitely needs to be above scarf and along with that debatably above the Offensive SR variant. It's just much more dangerous than Scarf is, idk what else there is to say honestly about the set.

 

[urban]

I think adding a set for Serperior called "Substitute" that encompasses both Sub + Leech Seed and Sub + Glare is probably the best course of action. Definitely worthy of A- rank - maybe even A with all of the fat balance running around.

I agree with AM about Double Dance Lando. Shit is terrifying and can smash through so many different team archetypes.

I think LO Keld should move up to A+, considering most LO Kelds are the RestTalk variant (which also runs Mystic Water), and having something that is a long term check to the numerous popular dark types is pretty valuable for bulky offense and offense builds. I guess my main issue is that I see it being on the same level or better than Scarf Keld (which is kind of dix rn anyway), so yeah either it should move up or Scarf should move down imo.

Scarf Garchomp is also pretty meh right now as it faces quite a bit of competition from Scarf Lando which offers a lot more in this meta. Intimidate + U-Turn is a great momentum grabber and a lot of teams find themselves struggling to keep up. Throw down some spikes and gg. Now, Garchomp on the other hand, is a bit lackluster in the power department, doesn't have the ability to grab momentum (it is much more likely to lose it, in fact), and also has lost its main niche in checking +1 Zard X back when it was really popular. Move Scarf Garchomp to A- imo.

There's been talk of renaming Heatran's SpDef set to "Utility" or something to that effect. I agree with that sentiment and also believe that set should move to A+. Lava Plume + Taunt + Toxic really puts in work versus most teams as Heatran can come in on a metric shit ton of mons, and in turn slower mons that switch in fear being Taunted while most faster mons don't really want to risk a burn or Toxic. Couple that with the wide array of options/variability the set has and I think it deserves A+.

Mixed Thundy is criminally underused and underrated. It has the ability to bypass a ton of its checks with Knock Off and Superpower, while still having two free slots for electric STAB + coverage or even something cute like T-wave. It's on par with Thundy's other two sets imo.

Lastly, I think someone mentioned Utility Mega Gyara and Gyara sets. No. Neither is good in this meta. Their usefulness is extremely specific/niche and I think if you use them you'll agree with me. The offensive sets are a million times better.

 

[Seth_]

Nominating scarf hoopa to b+.

Hoopa-u as top tier scarf is joke!

1. Fighting, dark, psychic are common resistances what makes it hard to clean up. There are a lot offensive dart types, psychic is very mediocre STAB (a lot some 4x resistances, some immunities, a lot 2x resistances) and coverage options aren't that good when you are choice locked. In comparison to quick EQ it's coverage is quite disappointing.

2. Loses to MOST priority user. People complain about drill losing to both azu and loom. Let's look at hoopa

252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 235-278 (78 - 92.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 201-237 (66.7 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 288-340 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 278-329 (92.3 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 247-291 (82 - 96.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 180-213 (59.8 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


44 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 160-189 (53.1 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
However bulky mega scizor has enough meat to take 3 hits from scarf hoopa u. Offensive SD still takes one and sets up SD.
Garchomp, Lando, Jirachi and even Drill are much more durable against priority.

3. Is SLOW!

Few quicekr mega mons like Zam, Aerodactyl, Sceptile are quicker and that's quiet bad impying you are supposed to be the fastest mon on the field. It is also slower than most scarfs like Lando, Drill, Garchomp, Lati, Jirachi or Keldeo. But that's not the end, scarf hoopa is slower than ZardX and Gyarados at +1! It is quicker than dragonite at +1 so you can reliably... Wait, dragonite has Espeed.

4. Has very little utility beside being fast.

Lando has intimidate plus utrun making it great pivot, Jirachi flinches everything, has trick, healing wish, utrun and good defensive typing. Drill... Well it can spin it is something! Also with mold breaker it's stab is resisted by even smaller number of mons. Keldeo is overall quiet bulky, has exelent typing and burns.

What has hoopa? Some special bulk but not really, and poor psychic immunity. And 4x weakness to u-turn making it u-turn folder for scarf jirachi/lando.

I cannot see any excuse to put scarf Hoopa over both Lando and Jirachi!

 

[bludz]

Scarf Lando, Jirachi, Keldeo, etc are faster and bulkier that is true. The difference is they can only revenge kill a certain set of things. Keldeo for example is never going to win late game if a Celebi is still alive in almost any capacity, and Jirachi needs a serious amount of hax to break through a Heatran for example. Hoopa as a Scarfer does not have this problem and is capable of revenge killing just about anything it can outspeed with just a little prior damage, bar actual walls which it fares decently against for a scarfer

 

[Seth_]

Jirachi needs a serious amount of hax to break through a Heatran for example

Well, aren't wallbreakers supposed to break through something like heatran? If you trying to hax to death something which resist 4x your attack I'm afraid you are doing something wrong.

Of course I get your point that hoopa is more powerful than keldeo or lando but pay attention that hoopa also cannot revenge kill everything. It 2HKO more and more popular offensive garchomp and it is OHKO back. Mega Diance? Fogret. Scarf zone is also 2hko.

Scarf hoopa-u tries to be wallbreaker and sweeper at once but fail to fulfill both duties.

 

[p2]

i mean scarf hoopa kinda just shits on all those stuff in the 80-150 speed tier range that try to revenge kill your normal variants, stuff like specs keld, lopunny, torn, chomp etc usually get obliterated by scarf hoopa.

but i think its been kinda mediocre since day 1 since offense is definitely capable of handling it with all this sand and priority and prankster twaves running around, it's really not a big a threat to offense as specs is to stall, still v annoying to face late game though. it's by far hoopas weakest set, and it could probably drop to a because you've also got to consider the opportunity cost of using scarf - it means you can't run specs or band

 

[bludz]

Well, aren't wallbreakers supposed to break through something like heatran? If you trying to hax to death something which resist 4x your attack I'm afraid you are doing something wrong.

Of course I get your point that hoopa is more powerful than keldeo or lando but pay attention that hoopa also cannot revenge kill everything. It 2HKO more and more popular offensive garchomp and it is OHKO back. Mega Diance? Fogret. Scarf zone is also 2hko.

Scarf hoopa-u tries to be wallbreaker and sweeper at once but fail to fulfill both duties.

You're missing the point. The point is Jirachi simply will not revenge kill some things. Hoopa can; sure maybe you need to whittle Diancie down to half but it's doesn't have to be at a really low number like Keldeo trying to revenge a Latios.

I'll concede its not as good as the other sets and agree with p2 that it can drop but B+ is way too low

 

[Seth_]

Ok, so hoopa-u can wear down it's counters quicker but in my opinion giving you momentum (lando, jirachi) or support (lati, jirachi) is more valuable than just raw power. Pay attention that with scarf you lack that power and cannot wear down some counters (fe: without fire punch you cannot simply wear down bulky mega scizor, withou gunk shot faries are huge problem etc...).

Scarf kyurem b sits at a- and I think that could be resonable place for hoopa.

 

[TURBODERP]

I think we should rank Mega Heracross's bulky set at least as high if not higher than the "Standard" Smogon spread (Jolly Max Attack Max Speed), as it sets up on and survives way more things than the standard set.

 

[bludz]

I think we should rank Mega Heracross's bulky set at least as high if not higher than the "Standard" Smogon spread (Jolly Max Attack Max Speed), as it sets up on and survives way more things than the standard set.

Hmm, I'll talk to the guys about this. I do think this spread is dope but I'm not entirely sure it constitutes an entirely different set, since it is basically just a Sub Heracross variant in terms of moveset

 

[TURBODERP]

Hmm, I'll talk to the guys about this. I do think this spread is dope but I'm not entirely sure it constitutes an entirely different set, since it is basically just a Sub Heracross variant in terms of moveset

Fair enough!

 

[p2]

can we drop clefables unaware sets a little

unaware sets really aren't good anymore and are usually relegated to full stall builds only, because it just doesn't do that much. like i'd say its mostly outclassed by quagsire as a setup stopper since quag stops similar threats in ground types and zard x etc, meanwhile unaware clef just doesn't achieve that much (amoonguss is insanely common as a teammate so its not like you need a serperior check by using it). there really is little use to unaware anymore and is usually outdone by magic guard sets which actually threaten stuff through the course of a game because its not getting chipped at by everything, has more reliable recovery and has the moveslots to use cm and pressure shit.

i mean it doesn't even beat subcm keldeo in a realistic scenario, so it's pretty mediocre if you ask me.


edit: i went over my post to beef it up a little since it was vague as hell and didn't really go anywhere

 

[MANNAT]

Hmm, I'll talk to the guys about this. I do think this spread is dope but I'm not entirely sure it constitutes an entirely different set, since it is basically just a Sub Heracross variant in terms of moveset

it should be a different set imo since it sets up on way more, and its lower speed tier lets it be checked by some slower shit like stallbreaker toge and shit.

 

[bludz]

I mean that's like saying that running bulk DD ZardX mandates a different set cuz it sets up on more things but is outsped by others. Ultimately the spread alters the performance and changes the checks somewhat but the general idea behind this Hera set is still a holepuncher. We talked about it and that spread for Hera is just gonna be considered an option for its current wallbreaker set already listed