Replies in bold and italics.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359
- Thread starter alexwolf
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RichieTheAlmighty
Banned deucer.
I dont care if a mon is good in your eyes, but let me tell you something: You never bump someone that high. I honestly think MLatios is too low, but he should be no more than A- rank, cause he is simply outclassed by its Mega counterpart and its non mega counterpart.Nominatingfor S Rank
Mega Latios deserves to move up. We all know that the reason he's currently in B Rank is because being slightly better than Latios doesn't justify using a mega stone on him. However to the newer players, which IIRC helping them is what this thread is for, they'll look at the list and think Mega Latios isn't as good as his lower form. It should be up to the player whether they want to use up their mega on him. This thread is supposed to be for ranking viability and looking at how it is now, I'd be inclined to believe Mega Latios = Quagsire in viability.
Basically, why would you use a mega that has around the same power as LO Latios? Id rather use other megas that could benefit my team. Basically, just like how Blissey is D rank cause its outclassed by Chansey, MLatios is outclassed by Latios. Reasoning over if someone wants to use up a mega on them is a stupid reason.
Also newer players never should get a say in the Viability Thread. (Im not exactly new, but w/e)
I can't help but disagree with this. . . mLatios is not in any way better than normal Latios. IF anything it's more of a "well, I don't have a mega on this team, but I do have Latios, why not?" If any of the Lati twins move up it should be mLatias. The only thing mLatios has over LO Latios is a DD set, however, we see how outclassed that is right now. S is not the place for mLatios.Nominatingfor S Rank
Mega Latios deserves to move up. We all know that the reason he's currently in B Rank is because being slightly better than Latios doesn't justify using a mega stone on him. However to the newer players, which IIRC helping them is what this thread is for, they'll look at the list and think Mega Latios isn't as good as his lower form. It should be up to the player whether they want to use up their mega on him. This thread is supposed to be for ranking viability and looking at how it is now, I'd be inclined to believe Mega Latios = Quagsire in viability.
Just.. No. This set wouldn't be easy to wall, true, even Ferrothorn would take a pretty big chunk from HP fire, but Glalie would just be too slow and be outsped by a lot of pokes, even Max Speed Bisharp could outspeed this.
I must disagree to this. Mega Latios is a bit bulkier than Normal Latios, true, and it also have a huge boost to its Attack, but besides D-Dance, I don't see any use of M-Latios, because his D-Dance would just be outclassed by - M-Salamence, M-Altaria, and M-CharizardX. There are much better offensive OU megas than him - M-Gallade, M-Lopunny, M-Metagross, M-Salamence, and that's not even the end of it!Nominatingfor S Rank
Mega Latios deserves to move up. We all know that the reason he's currently in B Rank is because being slightly better than Latios doesn't justify using a mega stone on him. However to the newer players, which IIRC helping them is what this thread is for, they'll look at the list and think Mega Latios isn't as good as his lower form. It should be up to the player whether they want to use up their mega on him. This thread is supposed to be for ranking viability and looking at how it is now, I'd be inclined to believe Mega Latios = Quagsire in viability.
Plus, Normal Latios could easily beat him in terms of both Power and Speed using the Life Orb or the Choice Scarf, and Scarf Latios should see a rise in usage soon, so I'm sorry, but I'll have to disagree to this.
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The thing is... Mega Latios isn't that viable at all. The Pokémon in S rank - and some of the A ranks - reflect what Pokémon you should almost always pick and base your team around.Nominatingfor S Rank
Mega Latios deserves to move up. We all know that the reason he's currently in B Rank is because being slightly better than Latios doesn't justify using a mega stone on him. However to the newer players, which IIRC helping them is what this thread is for, they'll look at the list and think Mega Latios isn't as good as his lower form. It should be up to the player whether they want to use up their mega on him. This thread is supposed to be for ranking viability and looking at how it is now, I'd be inclined to believe Mega Latios = Quagsire in viability.
Mega Latios should never be your first choice on a team. Like the rest of the B ranks, it's something you squeeze in if you have room and it fits. Choosing it right away limits teambuilding in that you've eliminated your chance to have another useful Mega in exchange for making a Pokémon just the tiniest bit better.
RichieTheAlmighty
Banned deucer.
Mega Glalie should stay C.
going away from the obvious speed tier, MGlalie is definetly a mon with poor qualities. Sure, its coverage is good, but its Mixed 120 attacks actually dont really even hit that hard (and if you even start with Explosion KOing Skarm, its coming off of STAB Refrigerate+250 base power+ its neutral) basically almost any steel type that outspeeds it can kill it. any Fire type that outspeeds it kills it. This guy has a plethora of checks due to its crappy base 100 speed tier. Also, unless you give me calcs to prove me wrong, i cant see EQ OHKOing many threats to it, as 120 Attack is amusing and usually you dont run full Attack investment (unless youre some shenanigan who wants to get outsped by anything thats base 80 speed or higher. also lets not forget its aids typing, it only resists one type, and that type is like only seen on Greninja. Pretty much 90% of the new megas threaten to kill it cause its so slow. I honestly think i cleared enough but prove me wrong cause Mega Glalie is not a threat at all, and the only thing it has as a threat is Explosion. It has too much Mega slot competition too, as id rather use Explosion Lando T if i want a Suicide lead.
also DoomBringer413 unless you stop double posting, you will be infracted for your poor editing skills.
going away from the obvious speed tier, MGlalie is definetly a mon with poor qualities. Sure, its coverage is good, but its Mixed 120 attacks actually dont really even hit that hard (and if you even start with Explosion KOing Skarm, its coming off of STAB Refrigerate+250 base power+ its neutral) basically almost any steel type that outspeeds it can kill it. any Fire type that outspeeds it kills it. This guy has a plethora of checks due to its crappy base 100 speed tier. Also, unless you give me calcs to prove me wrong, i cant see EQ OHKOing many threats to it, as 120 Attack is amusing and usually you dont run full Attack investment (unless youre some shenanigan who wants to get outsped by anything thats base 80 speed or higher. also lets not forget its aids typing, it only resists one type, and that type is like only seen on Greninja. Pretty much 90% of the new megas threaten to kill it cause its so slow. I honestly think i cleared enough but prove me wrong cause Mega Glalie is not a threat at all, and the only thing it has as a threat is Explosion. It has too much Mega slot competition too, as id rather use Explosion Lando T if i want a Suicide lead.
also DoomBringer413 unless you stop double posting, you will be infracted for your poor editing skills.
I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM
formerly Smog Frog
alright, you want calcs to prove its a threat?
252+ Atk Refrigerate Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
that should suffice.
also what the fuck kind of spread are you running if you dont have max speed+max attack?
Sorry...
You posted 2 times in a row. Use the edit function in the future to condense all your information into one post.
Oh yeah... Thanks! I'll try to not do that in the future :)
Right in one. This thread takes opportunity cost in as well and honestly, the benefits of using Mega Latios aren't actually worth the cost. Granted, everything has opportunity cost relative to M-Mence but once that's over with, why would you use Mega Latios? You get a very slight boost in SPA and bulk that is already outdamaged by standard LO Latios:Nominatingfor S Rank
Mega Latios deserves to move up. We all know that the reason he's currently in B Rank is because being slightly better than Latios doesn't justify using a mega stone on him. However to the newer players, which IIRC helping them is what this thread is for, they'll look at the list and think Mega Latios isn't as good as his lower form. It should be up to the player whether they want to use up their mega on him. This thread is supposed to be for ranking viability and looking at how it is now, I'd be inclined to believe Mega Latios = Quagsire in viability.
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 277-328 (81.2 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 247-292 (72.4 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Second calc accounts for SPA increase. So we've already established that LO Latios hits harder so the only role that Mega Latios has is Mixed D-Dance which is honestly, not S rank at all.
Well, there's also the added bulk and the fact you get a power boost without losing health each turn, hence why you might as well slap the mega stone on if you have nothing else. I get what you're saying and I agree, but you're making it out as if it's horrible and worse than Latios when it really isn't.
naturalstupidity
formerly The Imposter
Might as well make my case for Mega Latios.
--> A-
There's a general consensus that Mega Latios is better than regular Latios. It's only slightly weaker than LO Latios, but without the recoil and possessing increased bulk. It also has a base 130 Attack that lets it viably run DD and mixed sets. Overall, it's a high A+/S-rank threat like regular Latios. The reason it's in B, as far as I can tell, is that it has such massive opportunity cost since you're using your Mega slot on something that is simply an improvement on something that already exists. I really don't believe that Mega Latios is B just because of this opportunity cost. To figure out what rank this thing should be in, we really need to calculate the impact of opportunity cost on a Mega Pokemon.
This is obviously something very difficult to figure out, but there are a number of different cases we can use throughout different stages of the XY metagame. Traditionally, whenever a Mega like Latios has been ranked lower than its non-Mega form, it has been one rank below. Mega Tyranitar, throughout XY, has typically been either on par or one rank below regular Tyranitar. When regular Ttar was A+, it was A, when regular Ttar was A, it was A-. For early-mid XY, M-Alakazam was typically C while regular Alakazam was C+. M-Gyarados was in a similar range to its normal form, as was Scizor. In the early stages of XY, opportunity cost typically brought Megas like Latios one rank below their base forms.
Now, there are certainly a great number of excellent new Megas in ORAS, so I doubt that Mega Latios should be A or A+. Given the number of new OU-viable ORAS Megas, I personally feel that opportunity cost would put a Mega that is considered a straight upgrade from its base form two ranks below its base form. In this case, Mega Latios would go to A-. I feel like this is a good rank for it, as the Pokemon in that rank are still very viable but aren't always the first choice for one's team, which is definitely the case with Mega Latios.
There's a general consensus that Mega Latios is better than regular Latios. It's only slightly weaker than LO Latios, but without the recoil and possessing increased bulk. It also has a base 130 Attack that lets it viably run DD and mixed sets. Overall, it's a high A+/S-rank threat like regular Latios. The reason it's in B, as far as I can tell, is that it has such massive opportunity cost since you're using your Mega slot on something that is simply an improvement on something that already exists. I really don't believe that Mega Latios is B just because of this opportunity cost. To figure out what rank this thing should be in, we really need to calculate the impact of opportunity cost on a Mega Pokemon.
This is obviously something very difficult to figure out, but there are a number of different cases we can use throughout different stages of the XY metagame. Traditionally, whenever a Mega like Latios has been ranked lower than its non-Mega form, it has been one rank below. Mega Tyranitar, throughout XY, has typically been either on par or one rank below regular Tyranitar. When regular Ttar was A+, it was A, when regular Ttar was A, it was A-. For early-mid XY, M-Alakazam was typically C while regular Alakazam was C+. M-Gyarados was in a similar range to its normal form, as was Scizor. In the early stages of XY, opportunity cost typically brought Megas like Latios one rank below their base forms.
Now, there are certainly a great number of excellent new Megas in ORAS, so I doubt that Mega Latios should be A or A+. Given the number of new OU-viable ORAS Megas, I personally feel that opportunity cost would put a Mega that is considered a straight upgrade from its base form two ranks below its base form. In this case, Mega Latios would go to A-. I feel like this is a good rank for it, as the Pokemon in that rank are still very viable but aren't always the first choice for one's team, which is definitely the case with Mega Latios.
Empoleon has been more viable since ORAS came out, being anti-meta and all. This can check Greninja without Low Kick (gren has 4MSS so some may not carry it), Talonflame, Mega Slowbro, Lati@s, and more. As a defensive rocker it's decent, and it even has a few sets that can catch opponents off guard.
Raikou is a p. cool check to some current threats right now. For example, Talonflame/Pinsir bird spam it checks (Talonflame itself more than Pinsir). 115 Speed is a key tier as well, checking things like Thundy-I, Keldeo, and others. Compared to Mega Manectric, While Flamethrower/Overheat is cool for Ferrothorn and friends on Manectric, Raikou has some nice coverage, between HP Ice, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, Extrasensory, Aura Sphere, it's special movepool is no slouch. It doesn't take up a mega slot either. AV lets it check Megabro, Latias, and Zard Y, some really big threats.
As both a CM user and a spinblocker, Mega Sableye is a nice utility mon. Magic Bounce and Ghost typing make it excellent for hazard control. Its defense is great, being able to take hits from various threats. However, Lopunny and Altaria, among others, are a pain in the butt for Sableye, otherwise maybe A+. This thing is great on stall.
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Fair enough. Like you said, if you have nothing else better to use it on then it works but otherwise there are usually better options.
The thing about Mega Latios is that while it's not inherently worse than regular LO Latios, it is almost always the last choice you consider for a team, due to it having what is probably the highest opportunity cost to using a Mega. Mega Latios's upgrades are so minimal over regular Latios that it is hardly worth using it over pretty much any other potential Mega Evolution of Pokemon you have on your team; the only reason one would use Mega Latios is because they can (namely, if one does not already have a potential Mega on their team), but never really because they should.
Damn if this is the Richie i think it is, i'm shocked u would start a post in this way. Maybe be a little kinder next time if you ever want respect on this site.
Some people are saying newer players might be mislead by the viability rankings due to the opportunity cost, which is a very valid point. But if a new players stumbles upon the viability thread, they're most likely going to click on different mons in order to read their respective overviews. From there you pretty much can learn everything ab a specific just from the opening paragraph. Additionally, maybe we can add a line in the OP, perhaps after the descriptions of each rank, of how opportunity cost is a major influence on placement.
Not sure how crazy this'll sound, but I'll go for it anyway. I think Mega Houndoom improved in the shift to ORAS, and that it deserves to move up to B. Before, it was more of a niche stall breaker that could break stall, but really struggled v. offense, since Keldeo and Azumarill were so prevalent. This generation helped Houndoom in two ways. One, Keldeo and Azumarill are a lot less common, so Houndoom can abuse its golden speed tier against offense with less worry about being checked. However, the bigger reason Houndoom is a lot better now is that Mega Sableye was introduced. Sableye is basically a required mon for stall now, and Houndoom makes its life a living hell, thanks to being immune to Will-o-Wisp, taking reduced damage from Knock Off, taking little to nothing from +1 attacks, and being able to boost up with Nasty Plot faster than Sableye can with Calm Mind. A +2 Houndoom isn't only terrifying for Mega Sableye; non-earth Power Heatran, Mew, Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, Jirachi, and Celebi are all setup bait, and Mega Slowbro is OHKOd after taking, at minimum, 16% prior damage. Versus offense, Houndoom isn't useless as some say, as thanks to its golden speed tier, it revenge kills latios and latias, walls substitute mega latias completely, switches into bisharp, checks mega metagross, revenge kills mega gallade, rks mega scizor, and handles jirachi well, barring flinch hax. Speed has become really important lately; the 110 speed tier especially has exploded, and Houndoom has a great match up v. all of them except diancie, who admittedly is a great check. Mega Altaria also exists, which is a little annoying for Houndoom. However, even considering those two new mons, Houdoom's matchup v. stall and offense has improved, and I think it should move up.
What are people's thoughts on Mega Zam? 150 Base Speed w/Timid outspeeds all the new Megas and the buffed Greninja, and it got some more mons with good abilities to Trace like Magic Bounce, Adaptability, Sheer Force, another Swift Swimmer, etc. Only thing that's bad for Zam is increased opportunity cost, but I think it might be worth moving up. Haven't had much time to use it, so other people's opinions would be good.
I think megazam is fine where it is tbh. It is a great mon for sure, however it does require a bit of support in order to perform it's job effectively. Alsp, running timid makes it weaker, and there isn't much need for that since it outspeeds most of the unboosted metagame at modest anyway, Greninja being an example. He also can't really deal with a lot of the new megas that well.
Running Timid means he's able to outspeed Mega Bee, Sceptile, Lopunny, ScarfTran, Scarf Diggersby, and at worst tie with opposing Mega Aerodactyl, which has become very anti meta right now and quite common. He needs that speed if he wants to have a chance at beating any of those. Additionally, Megazam can revenge Mega Swampert in rain when running energy ball, which has now become a viable option. Psyshock / focus blast / HP Ice | Fire / Energy Ball is good enough coverage for him to be effective in this meta.
That being said though, I do agree that he doesn't need to move up, but you're severely underestimating his potential.
I suppose it helps with hitting the 135's that's true. I am not trying to underestimate at all lol. I ran this thing forever and it actually did loads of work for me. It just has really underwhelming power, which I didn't expect at all from base 175 Sp. Atk. Energy ball is actually a pretty awesome choice. Swampert was one of the bigger threats I was referring to that it had trouble dealing with, but that would handle it.
Move it anywhere but D Rank
By no means is Heracross A Rank worthy or possibly even B Rank but D rank is a little harsh for Heracross. Surprisingly enough, Heracross has the tools to differentiate itself from the other Fighting type Pokemon that lurk in OU. In my opinion, Heracross's redeeming qualities can be found in its Choice Band variant.
Heracross (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Guts
EVs: 30 HP / 252 Atk / 228 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Knock Off
- Toxic
Close Combat and Megahorn provide solid coverage against common defensive threats such as Mega Slowbro and Skarmory both of which eat a 2HKO, making them checks at best. Knock Off provides utility and cripples both offensive and defensive threats alike that dare switch in on Heracross. Toxic works well because it allows Heracross to wear down Pokemon that it normally would not be able to such as Physically Defensive Clefable.
Heracross's base 125 Attack stat makes it potent, especially when it is equipped with a Choice Band. It's base 85 Speed alongside the 228 Speed EVs allows for it to outspeed threats such as Jolly Breloom, Bulky Dragon Dance Charizard X and Adamant Mamoswine. Guts is absolutely amazing because WoW, Toxic and Thunder Wave only works in favor of Heracross, providing a 1.5* Attack boost.
As mentioned previously, Heracross is not a Pokemon with flaws. It's slow speed and multiple common weaknesses (Fire, Flying, Fairy and Psychic) make Heracross difficult to switch in consistently against common OU threats.
However, with Pokemon such as Mega Slowbro and Mega Sableye in OU, Heracross definitely has some viability in OU and is deserving more than a D Ranking.
RichieTheAlmighty
Banned deucer.
A posting attitude never changes.
besides, if i dont shit up the chat who cares then?
What i meant by new people should get no say in the thread is because I once made the chat bad with my horrible knowledge about the XY meta. But anyways id like to second Aragorn the King for Houndoom as it does seem like an overlooked mon (tbh this guy is really neglected) and can show some hidden potential in ORAS.
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