Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Skarmory for B+ to A-
Skarm is very solid at walling countless top tier physical threats such as lando t, bisharp, azumarill, etc. Not too much has changed in ORAS except for there are even more pokemon for skarm to wall. ORAS introduced big new threats such as mega metagross, mega gallade, mega lopunny, crunch megados, and mega beedrill all of whom get stopped dead in their tracks by yung skarm. A few of the aforementioned pokemon are set up sweepers, all of whom skarm whirlwinds with ease which is a trait not to many pokemon share. Not to mention skarm is one of if not the most reliable rock setters and defoggers in the tier. The one thing holding skarm back is all this magnezone usage, but shed shell is very viable as skarm doesnt miss lefties too much thanks to roost. Overall, B+ is just too low for a pokemon who walls so many top tier threats both new and old.

sorry to burst your bubble but:

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 36.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

while this may seem insignificant, the speed drops makes you faster so you cant roost.

also:
+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

i dont call that walling

and you wouldnt stay in on beedrill because it often comes with magnezone and carries knock off, which will remove your shed shell and make skarm trappable. and if megados is taunt, you get set up on:

-1 0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 67-79 (20.2 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO(if you even run brave bird, which is a bad option on skarm. if you run counter, you are forced out.)
and rocks skarm is putting too much pressure on the poor bird.

 

[jbtc10]

Skarm doesn't exactly 'wall' Bisharp or Mega Gallade. Most set-up sweepers it stops is a one-time deal since it merely phazes them and usually takes around 80-90% damage in the process and afterwards can't do much for the rest of the game if something that can finish it off gets dragged in. If you run Counter instead of Whirlwind, they can easily scout for that by boosting again, which will most likely result in you getting swept by something at +4 and thus carries a large risk. The Shed Shell still has the annoying problem of basically restricting further the things that it can switch into if it wants to retain it, with Knock Off being commonly used on mons that Skarm would normally be expected to switch into, like Lando, Azumaril and Beedrill. I still think it carries too many flaws to be in the A-ranks and B is definitely much more suited for it in todays meta.

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

You brought up a lot of good points but to be fair the +2 calc implies gallade gets a free turn. Yes, gallade muscles past skarm in the situation you chose. In a 1v1 situation skarm will win. Thats not to say gallade never gets to +2 vs skarm, like if skarm switches in and gallade goes for SD which admittedly is possible. Phazing is still a nice panic button tho and not a lot of mons can live a stab +2 cc coming off of 165 base attack and still phaze it out. As for metagross, if 252 jolly which is the common spread you still need 2 drops to outspeed skarm meaning skarm can roost and then phaze. As for megados, not rly sure how common taunt is. While yes it definitely beats skarm and I didnt rly think of that lol I have only seen it once. Though I could see it being popular with mega sableye running rampant, and if taunt megados starts to rise in usage it could definitely be problematic for skarm. As for beedrill, skarm can stay in on beedrill all day long, it just risks switching in, getting knocked off, and beedrill uturning into zone which also implies beedrill doesnt run drill run which is also p common. The odds of beedrill a) having knock off and not drill run b) predicting skarm switch c) having a zone on the team are altogether pretty low, although still enough to be considered a problem I guess. The flaws you listed are all valid and are part of the reason Im not suggesting skarm goes higher than A-. However a few of the things you noted can be played around, and skarm is still hella bulky, has the ability control hazards and fit on multiple archtypes meaning overall I think B+ is just a bit too low for him.

here's what happens:
gallade comes in off of a free switch(revenge kill, pivot switch, etc) and sets up. you send in your skarm, and he uses knock off. now, you are in CC kill range.

taunt is a good option on gyara(if not the best)

beedrill with magnezone is pretty much a given. its pretty much law that beedrill comes with magnezone.

and skarm has limited moveslots. you're suggesting it has rocks, defog, whirlwind, roost, brave bird, and counter all in the same set. you only have 4. and skarm is equal in viability to chansey, because its so easily taken advantage of.

 

[Klefkivan]

As for beedrill, skarm can stay in on beedrill all day long, it just risks switching in, getting knocked off, and beedrill uturning into zone which also implies beedrill doesnt run drill run which is also p common. The odds of beedrill a) having knock off and not drill run b) predicting skarm switch c) having a zone on the team are altogether pretty low,

Just for the record most m-beedrill teams in ou use a magnezone or else skarm will ruin it's day


ninja'd :(

 

[Srn]

Here are a couple changes I'd like to see happen in the B ranks.

Sylveon for B

ARE WE JUST GONG TO IGNORE MY BABY?! D:<

I've stated this in this thread once and in the new Sylveon thread, but with most of these new Mega Evolutions being physical attackers, such as Mega Gallade, Mega Metagross, Mega Swampert, Mega Beedrill and Mega Lopunny, having a special-attacking Fairy-type wallbreaker to get past physical walls such as Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro that does not take up a mega slot (uh-hum, Mega Gardevoir...) and even has the ability to be a pseudo-cleric with Heal Bell and gain momentum on her opponents with Baton Pass, Specs Sylveon got WAY better in ORAS. It also helps her case that Megas like Mega Sceptile, Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade and Mega Latias are known users of Substitute, meaning they are not safe from a Choice Specs Pixilate-boosted Hyper Voice. Base Metagross is nearly OHKO'd by a Shadow Ball, as well. Good luck switching in! The factors keeping her away from B+, however, are her painfully slow speed of 60, her really low physical bulk of 65 and the reliance of a choice item to perform as a wallbreaker, but I strongly believe that despite all that, she's a lot better than the pokes residing in B- atm. Definitely better in ORAS OU than Mega Houndoom, Doublade and Mega Garchomp. Raise Sylveon to B rank.

Aight sylveon is only really usable as a pseudo-cleric if for some reason you want a fairy cleric and DON"T need unaware at all, which is never because extra mega gallade checks are paramount.
Specs Sylveon in general isn't too great, i've messed around with it a lot and its always been underwhelming for a few reasons.
In general, when you slap band or specs on anything, you look for a few things:
1) Consistent and powerful STAB(s)
2) Coverage to hit ur STAB resists
3) Good Speed or Good Bulk.

Sylveon accomplishes 1) and 2), but falls WAY short in 3. Good bulk essentially summarizes what i'm tryna say, which is the capability to switch into offense. Sylveon can hardly do this; one of the greatest things it could do was take a hit from ninja with max hp and avoid 2hko to threaten it out, but it can't even do that now with gunk shot.
Mega Metagross is a new and popular threat that switches in easily and can probably punish any switch-ins too, and you get easily 2hko'd by mega lopunny, mega altaria (96 Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 241-285 (61.4 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (and i'm being nice assuming u only run enough attack to gaurantee OHKO on chomp)) mega gallade (252 Atk Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 222-262 (56.6 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock), and the increased popularity of mons like mega scizor and mega gyarados (+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 318-375 (81.1 - 95.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock) don't really help your case either.
The point is, if you can't switch in, you basically sacrifice yourself to hopefully dent ONE mon even against offense, and most respectable stall or balance teams are going to have something to neuter you like a jirachi, heatran, chansey, mega metagross, etc. You don't run shadow ball cuz the best set is by far Hyper Voice/Psyshock/Hp fire or ground/baton pass. You don't even stand a chance of breaking through the tier's premier special walls like chansey or heatran.
Not to mention that running baton pass means u can't run Nasty/SD pass celebi alongside it, and you may just pass a stray intimidate over as well to somebody who doesnt' appreciate it.
You don't have the bulk or speed to be a great wallbreaker, you're much better off using something else.

Since i have hw to do, lets talk about a GOOD user of Band/Specs: Tyranitar
This baby has fantastic bulk and the right typing to be a nuisance to offense by trapping lati@s, checking flyspam and switching into practically every relevant fire in the tier while also 2hko'ing nearly every relevant physical wall in the game with the right move (stone edge for skarm, superpower for ferro, crunch for slowbro, fire punch for ferro, sciz, chesnaught, etc) It has consistent STABs of some of the most offensively effective types in the game, rock and dark, and access to the highest base power moves of both types, stone edge and crunch. Your speed isn't even all that shitty, you can easily invest enough speed to outpace uninvested 70s without losing much bulk (and u shud, so that u can actually beat skarm). It naturally synergizes with plenty of pokemon as well, such as keldeo, lando-i, mega altaria, excadrill, and a lot more. THIS is the kind of wallbreaker people want, not some shit that can hardly even switch-in for its life to attempt to compensate for its speed.

Empoleon to B.

Being one of the very few checks to Greninjas not carrying Low Kick and being the only Pokemon I can think of that 4x resists Ice, Empoleon definitely deserves a promotion. Water/Steel is a wonderfully unique and fantastic typing that gives it plenty of resistances (again, ICE IS 4X not very effective!!) and immunity to Toxic. If Greninja isn't running Low Kick (note that Empoleon is also immune to Gunk Shot), he's not breaking past this emperor penguin. For a defensive Pokemon, having a special attack stat of 111 is amazing, giving this special wall a bite to complement its long list of utilities, which include being a stealth rock setter, defogger, phaser and even a Choice Specs user if you're brave enough. Empoleon isn't without flaws, which imo keeps it from anything higher than B. While having a stellar typing, said typing is still weak to common attacking types, such as Fighting, Ground and Electric. Having no reliable recovery also hurts it, and its speed isn't stellar at 60. Raise Empoleon to B.

Practically all ninja run low kick now, this thing is hardly even a check. Your 4x resist to ice is completely irrelevant when the main ice type attackers in the tier (mamo, weavile, ninja, glalie) all have well-used options to 2hko you (eq or low kick). No reliable recovery and very low speed, alongside very common weaknesses like you pointed out are way too crippling, and in general i find this mon is just too easy to handle or switch-into. It just doesn't do anything, it can't wall much on offense and it isn't annoying enough to stall to be a threat either. From what i've seen/used, its just kinda bad...

 

[theV8man]

Practically all ninja run low kick now, this thing is hardly even a check. Your 4x resist to ice is completely irrelevant when the main ice type attackers in the tier (mamo, weavile, ninja, glalie) all have well-used options to 2hko you (eq or low kick). No reliable recovery and very low speed, alongside very common weaknesses like you pointed out are way too crippling, and in general i find this mon is just too easy to handle or switch-into. It just doesn't do anything, it can't wall much on offense and it isn't annoying enough to stall to be a threat either. From what i've seen/used, its just kinda bad...

As great of an option as Low Kick is, it is pretty uncommon to see it. According to the general usage statistics, you're more likely to run into Toxic Spikes or Night Slash (-_-) Greninja than Low Kick. Even for the 1720+ ladder stats, it's used on less than 5% of Greninja. So Empoleon is a somewhat clinical Greninja check. That being said, even though it's an ok Greninja switch-in it doesn't take away from all the other problems that you listed + the fact that Magnezone traps it easily (not that most Pokemon that partner with Magnezone can't handle Empoleon themselves). Not to mention all the new megas that poop on it. So yeah, Empoleon shouldn't rise.

 

[AM]

As great of an option as Low Kick is, it is pretty uncommon to see it. According to the general usage statistics, you're more likely to run into Toxic Spikes or Night Slash (-_-) Greninja than Low Kick. Even for the 1720+ ladder stats, it's used on less than 5% of Greninja. So Empoleon is a somewhat clinical Greninja check. That being said, even though it's an ok Greninja switch-in it doesn't take away from all the other problems that you listed + the fact that Magnezone traps it easily (not that most Pokemon that partner with Magnezone can't handle Empoleon themselves). Not to mention all the new megas that poop on it. So yeah, Empoleon shouldn't rise.

I mean usage statistics are never that great to solidify an argument when the metagame doesn't revolve around ladder only, it also involves the tournament aspect, which the rankings take into account that as well. Just thought I would point that out since we haven't even touched on the rankings Empoleon falls under.

 

[Rustyy]

sorry to burst your bubble but:

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 36.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

while this may seem insignificant, the speed drops makes you faster so you cant roost.

also:
+2 252 Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

i dont call that walling

and you wouldnt stay in on beedrill because it often comes with magnezone and carries knock off, which will remove your shed shell and make skarm trappable. and if megados is taunt, you get set up on:

-1 0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Gyarados: 67-79 (20.2 - 23.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO(if you even run brave bird, which is a bad option on skarm. if you run counter, you are forced out.)
and rocks skarm is putting too much pressure on the poor bird.

there is a thing called counter and a thing called brave bird in case you didnt know

 

[Alfalfa]

there is a thing called counter and a thing called brave bird in case you didnt know

Skarmory cannot Brave Bird Mega Gallade if it gets KOd by a +2 Close Combat with Stealth Rock and some prior damage. MegaGross actually needs to be at -2 before it can underspeed Skarmory, so you are right on Counter.

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

there is a thing called counter and a thing called brave bird in case you didnt know

At best, Brave Bird can net you a mutual KO - you might bring Gallade down, but the recoil will kill you. At worst, CC is a potential OHKO, and you'll sacrifice Skarmory without doing anything other than lowering Gallade's defenses. Counter has the same problems, Skarmory still risks being OHKOed without doing anything in return, whilst also carrying the additional risk of allowing the opponent an extra SD (and at +4, if you don't have anything capable of revenging Gallade, you're dead).

 

[etw44]

Mega-Heracross to B or B+ While Mega Heracross has great power, bulk, and movepool, its effectiveness has fallen since the start of ORAS. Including old checks and counters such as Unaware Clefable and Defensive Landorus-T and Gliscor, bird spam ,and the Lati twins(only in a safe switch-in however), there is now things such as Mega Altaria and Mega Metagross, in which the former can either be a fully defensive set which can still 2HKO it with Return or an offensive DD set which sets up and quickly kill it, and the latter easily outspeeds and always OHKOS Mega Heracross with Zen Headbutt. In short, Mega Heracross is still viable, but new and old threats have made it less effective as it once was.

Also calcs:
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 198-234 (65.7 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 318-374 (102.2 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 155-185 (43.9 - 52.4%) -- approx. 8.2% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Pixilate Altaria Return vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mega Heracross: 188-224 (60.4 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 175-210 (44.4 - 53.2%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Heracross: 188-224 (60.4 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[hithere44]

I don't think Hera should move down at all. Sure his effectiveness against offense has become worse. But he is a wallbreaker first and foremost. Nobody uses Mega Heracross thinking what it will do to offense, people use him because of his matchup against stall.He is a good wallbreaker mega and one of the few physical attackers that can beat Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro.

 

[blaargathon]

So has Chesnaught been confirmed for being raised to B+? It really belongs there, no questions asked. It walls Mega Gyarados, Mega Lopunny, Crawdaunt, and Bisharp (im sure theres some im forgetting), has a plethora of moves it can run to support itself and the rest of the team, and actually isn't entirely passive, which is something a lot of walls suffer from.

It's beat by MHera, Zard X, MGallade, Talonflame, MGross and pretty much every relevant special attacker (including half of S Rank: Greninja, Latios, and Thundurus) so honestly pushing it for A- is pretty goofy as all of these Pokemon are huge threats, and all of them are very common, but B+ is certainly a fair rank for it as I'd say its better than all of the stuff in B.

I don't think Hera should move down at all. Sure his effectiveness against offense has become worse. But he is a wallbreaker first and foremost. Nobody uses Mega Heracross thinking what it will do to offense, people use him because of his matchup against stall.He is a good wallbreaker mega and one of the few physical attackers that can beat Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro.

I agree 100%. Mega Heracross is still very good considering it can beat Mega Slowbro, a very threatening wall. Mega Sableye is a bit of an issue for Hera as it doesn't appreciate a burn, but normal Heracross is actually benefited by status so I'd say that banded Guts Heracross is actually a better switch in to Mega Sableye (Sableye can't switch into a Pin Missle without taking some serious damage either).

 

[Flamer]

Mega-Swampert for B​

One of the most hyped megas by far was Megapert. Rain boosted speed and STAB Waterfall sounded amazing on paper, however, several months after initial hype, Megaperts flaws begin to seep through and I feel putting pert on the same level as other Swift swimmers is not ideal as it really restricts rain teams with their choice of teammates and does not bring anything much needed to rain to offset its mega cost.

The first big issue with pert is he requires two free turns to be useful, one to switch in safely and the next to safely mega evolve before he can actually make use of Swift Swim. This means that you must either make use of double switches to bring pert in on something he threatens, use Volt-turn to bring him in (Which has lots of issues ill go into later) or sacrifice a mon to get him in on a mon he threatens. This is very specific and Pert finds it hard to do this consistently, meaning it is essentially useless in these matches. You might say "b-b-but protect" and I say "b-b-but limited rain turns b-b-bud."

The second and probably most important issue with Mpert is that he brings almost nothing new to rain while wasting a slot that could be used on more unique rain-based megas like Manectric or Ampharos. Mpert, while ok at his job, Mpert does the exact same job as every other Swift swimmer, heck, you could even say he does it worse than them due to the free turn needed to mega. Kabutops has stronger moves and beats roughly the same mons, Kingdra is deadly on the special side and very little can wall it, the list goes on. The only real niche Pert has is being immune to Twave and sorta beating Thund-I if already Mega'd but +2 Kabu Aqua Jet KOs Thund anyway and mons like Manectric and Amph beat it as well, not to mention Seismitoed having the exact same immunity if you really want. The fact that you take up the mega slot to do this also prevents you from using one of the best Volt Switchers in the game in Megaman as a way of providing desperately needed free switches to you.

There are just too many things wrong with Megapert imo to actually leave it on the same rank as other swift swimmers who do the job just as well without wasting a mega slot. When Megapert has the chance, he does well, but those chances are uncommon, especially with the rise in usage of Celebi and Chesnaught, and what he does isnt particularly special and can be done more reliably by other swift swimmers, opportunity cost is the name of the game here.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

I think you're being pretty unfair to Mega Swampert. Firstly, even though Swampert needs that turn to Mega Evolve, keep in mind that Swampert is actually impressively bulky. Basically, you can force a switch and Mega Evolve, and on that turn Mega Swampert can still put in a nice punch with its STABs or its coverage. If they don't switch, Mega Swampert can take the hit well and hit back pretty hard so it still got the kill. Saying you need VoltTurn to bring Swampert in or sack a mon is a pretty flawed argument because that applies to Kabutops and Kingdra as well, especially given they are not as bulky as Mega Swampert itself is. You also seem to act like Mega Swampert holds you back from using Kingdra or Kabutops. Remember back in XY that Kabutops and Kingdra were often used in tandem with one another? Yeah, Mega Swampert can work perfectly well in tandem with Kingdra or Kabutops and form a nice Swift Swim duo, as Mega Swampert can take on Electric-types and sweep while enduring hits well, and Kabutops or Kingdra can then just wipe the floor. Being immune to Thunder Wave is actually a huge niche for Mega Swampert on rain teams because Thundurus-I is a massive threat to the playstyle as a whole. Yes, Manectric and Ampharos are both okay options for a rain team, but they don't take FULL advantage of rain like Mega Swampert does. Mega Swampert just sweeps through offensive teams with its STABs and coverage, and thanks to its impressive bulk (it's almost as bulky as Mega Scizor!!) and great defensive typing (it only has one weakness!!), it is very, very difficult to revenge kill. From my experiences playing against it, you need to play very carefully around it when the rain is active.

Overall, I feel like that post is being pretty unfair to Mega Swampert. B+ is the very lowest it should be, and if it stays there I wouldn't mind at all. In fact, I wouldn't at all be opposed to Mega Swampert rising to A-, though keeping it in B+ doesn't seem like a terrible idea either.

 

[AM]

ScraftyIsTheBest pretty much ninja'd what I was about to say but he did it better than I would've anyways. A- is too high for M-Swampert though. That's just unrealistic because of the points Flamer brought up as such as B+ is fine for it.

 

[trc]

Mega Alakazam: I like that Mega Alakazam can bypass Mega Sableye and Chansey on stall teams with CM Dazzling Gleam and CM Focus Blast, and CM Shadow Ball can beat Slowbro and Jirachi, so it depends on the coverage in order for Mega Alakazam to beat stall teams pretty well. Inflikted said that it is forced to run Timid due to the new fast Mega Pokemon, limiting its power, and while this is true, I think it's a benefit that Mega Alakazam outruns many popular Mega Pokemon, so I'm think B+ is perfect for now.

Breloom: I agree with this moving to A- because its SD Orb set is very effective against the stall teams more common now than in XY, and Sash is still good against offense. I don't think the matchup issue vs playstyles is too hindering either.

Celebi: I definitely advocate Celebi for A-, and have for some time. I find that the roles its typing and movepool lend it to are more valuable in ORAS, and I can Celebi fitting quite nicely with the rest of the Pokemon in A- rank. Celebi checks many common Pokemon well, including Keldeo, Mega Lopunny, Mega Slowbro, Mega Swampert, Rotom-W, Excadrill, Mega Diancie, Manaphy, and completely walls TG + RD with Psychic > Ice Beam, the more common variation, Landorus lacking Knock Off, and Thundurus lacking Knock Off. The Choice Scarf set is a great Mega Lopunny check and is underrated in general, while Perish Song is a great boon on defensive sets as it is very helpful against the slow boosting sweepers which are becoming quite common. I think its extensive movepool is incredibly helpful as well.

Chansey: Same rank as Skarmory; it's just as passive, can't wall Greninja very well anymore, and metagame trends are unkind to it, like the rise of TG RD Manaphy and Encore Mega Lopunny. Quoting alexwolf: "it's bait for too much dangerous stuff, including most offensive / set up MEvos, such as Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, Refresh / Heal Bell DD Mega Altaria, Mega Gallade, Mega Sableye, and CroMegaBro. It also doesn't help at all that the best special attackers in OU can all get past Chansey, namely Gengar, Thundurus (NP + Taunt, NP + Focus Blast, Knock Off + Superpower), Keldeo, CM Mega Diancie, Greninja, Mega Gardevoir (Taunt or CM), and Landorus (CM or Knock Off sets)".

Dragonite: This was discussed when it moved here; nothing has changed since then.

Gyarados: A-, see Halcyon's post which explain this nicely.

Hawlucha: Stays in B+.

Hippowdon: Hippowdon is great :) it walls heaps of stuff while being a bulkier, more resilient version of Tyranitar at setting up sand. It checks Excadrill, Talonflame, Thundurus (with a Rock-type move), Mega Pinsir, Mega Metagross, and Mega Lopunny. It provides SR, has reliable recovery, and isn't setup bait like other defensive Pokemon can be due to its decent Attack stat. It should move up to A-.

Kabutops: Should stay where it is, rain is still good, Kabutops hasn't changed much.

Kingdra: Should stay where is is, rain is still good, Kingdra hasn't changed much.

Kyurem-B: Stays in B+ rank, see alexwolf's post here for a pretty in depth explanation.

Mew: Same as Dragonite, although a drop to B+ is feasible.

Raikou: There was something about Raikou that I didn't like in XY. I don't really know why, I think I was using CM Raikou during the Aegislash suspect test and was annoyed by its lack of power, but from recent experience, Raikou is far better than I remember. alexwolf said something about this in the council PM, that Raikou is the Electric-type with the least strain on teambuilding, as Mega Manectric uses a Mega slot, Thundurus is SR weak, and Magnezone is Choice-locked, and I agree, Raikou is far easier to slap on teams as a glue. Assault Vest and CM sets are still viable, but from what I've been using recently, Choice Specs is the best set, as it checks Mega Slowbro and switches into annoyingly common Pokemon like Klefki and Thundurus. I think it sits solidly in B+ rank.

Rhyperior: I used Rhyperior heavily near the end of XY but it isn't on the same level anymore and deserves to go down to B. It can't setup SR as easily thanks to Mega Sableye, it's setup bait for Mega Altaria, most of the new Mega Pokemon introduces threaten and/or force it, especially Mega Sceptile and Mega Metagross, and the rise in Pokemon like regular Gyarados gives it another physical attacker it struggles with, which is annoying when balanced teams try to use Rhyperior as one of their main checks to physical attackers.

Skarmory: Fine where it is. Pretty cool now that Skarmory walls a lot of physical attackers that have been popping up but still faces the issues of passiveness and one of the most popular physical attackers that it should be able to wall, Mega Metagross, it can't.

Starmie: Stays in B+

Suicune: Faces competition with CM Rest Mega Slowbro and CM Manaphy which have been more popular recently and the overpreparation for Mega Slowbro hinders Suicune as well as they have almost the same counters. B rank.

Mega Swampert: On one hand, Mega Swampert offers a lot to a rain team, including an Electric immunity and pretty good bulk, as well as Stealth Rock if you choose to not use Ferrothorn, but it's really held back by its poor Speed before Mega Evolving as it means that offensive teams can't just be ran through as well as you'd expect. It takes up a Mega slot which would be beneficial as Mega Manectric, Mega Sceptile, or Mega Heracross, all common Pokemon which offer a lot to a rain team and thus give Mega Swampert competition in its role. I think it's fine where it is, in B+ rank.

Tornadus-T: Not sure.

Victini: Not sure.

Alomomola: Mega Lopunny get setup Subs on this thing, so can Altaria, which isn't ideal. Mega Altaria fully makes this Pokemon a liability. It isn't really as useful on defensive teams anymore with its role being lent to Slowbro nowadays; it's passiveness hinders it.

Amoonguss: Maybe it's just me but I've always found Amoonguss a bitch to deal with because it doesn't die with Regenerator and its good bulk and had Spore to annoy teams. Now in ORAS, it can check Mega Altaria and Mega Diancie, while being able to Clear Smog stat boosters like Mega Slowbro and Suicune. B+ imo but I don't think I'd mind if it stayed in B.

Mega Beedrill: I haven't used this too much but from what I've heard, it's a B rank threat. It's very difficult for offense to deal with because of its high Speed and power, and someone mentioned that Protect is also a boon for it against the Choice Scarfers which are typically the only offensive Pokemon that can revenge it. Its frailty and vulnerability to priority, as well as common checks make me more inclined to vote B rank for now.

Mega Camerupt: I don't like Mega Camerupt. It's terribly slow, not even ok slow like Pangoro and Azumarill but ridiculously slow, slower than the common Pokemon on defensive teams, slower than literally anything else you'd expect to see on an offensive one. Every team has at least 3 Pokemon that do a truckload of damage to it including Greninja, Azumarill, Landorus-T, Latios, Latias, and Landorus, all not Pokemon you want to give free switches too, but unlike other offensive Pokemon troubled by different offensive Pokemon, Mega Camerupt is just so slow it can't do anything. Stall teams have no trouble with Mega Camerupt, they almost always have Chansey. Offensive teams can both kill it and even have a common switch-in, Latios or Latias, which are on a multitude of teams. I guess it's decent on TR teams but that's incredibly niche. B- or even C+, and putting it in C isn't even a stretch, imo.

Chesnaught: I think this should move up to B+. It's one of the better Mega Lopunny checks, but it also checks a slew of other common Pokemon like Bisharp, Landorus-T, and Mega Gyarados. Drain Punch is a pretty handy addition to its movepool too, and Spikes is more valuable in this metagame as well. It's a pretty nice option for stall teams .

Crawdaunt: Not sure.

Mega Latios: Give me a couple of weeks on this one, it's intriguing.

Lucario: Countered by Mega Sableye on stall teams, not that fast and kinda difficult to setup too, I think it should move to B-.

Mandibuzz: Everyone hates on Mandibuzz :( I think it's still good in its current rank, and a good defensive Pokemon in general. It counters Mega Metagross, Mega Gallade, most Mega Charizard X, Landorus-T, Landorus, Garchomp, Mega Scizor, and most common Talonflame. It's one of the few Defog users that can Defog on the majority of Stealth Rock setters, and having access to Taunt and Knock Off give it utility against defensive teams.

Quagsire: Not sure, probably just fine in B though.

Omastar: Should stay where it is, rain is still good and Omastar hasn't changed much.

Scizor: I've seen regular CB and SD LO Scizor recently and they were pretty cool. It merits further testing but it should stay here for now.

Scolipede: I haven't seen one of these in ages so I couldn't really say anything, even though it's pretty obvious it isn't on the same level as the Pokemon in the rest of its rank. Offensive Scolipede struggles against the stall teams which are more common now, and with Landorus-T being everywhere and resisting both of its STAB moves, it isn't making a splash. SD Baton Pass and suicide lead sets seem to still be efficient though, so it could perhaps be in B- or C+.

Mega Tyranitar: This was moved here last update, it's fine.

Zapdos: Move down a rank, it's setup bait for Mega Altaria and can't check BirdSpam as well as it used to thanks to SD Talonflame being quite common. I guess it checks Mega Sceptile but that isn't exactly too difficult to wall. It has common switch ins for offensive teams and does nothing against stall barring getting off Defogs which admittedly is helpful but it's intrinsic to every other Defogger too.

this took way too long ugh

 

[Flamer]

I think you're being pretty unfair to Mega Swampert. Firstly, even though Swampert needs that turn to Mega Evolve, keep in mind that Swampert is actually impressively bulky. Basically, you can force a switch and Mega Evolve, and on that turn Mega Swampert can still put in a nice punch with its STABs or its coverage. If they don't switch, Mega Swampert can take the hit well and hit back pretty hard so it still got the kill. Saying you need VoltTurn to bring Swampert in or sack a mon is a pretty flawed argument because that applies to Kabutops and Kingdra as well, especially given they are not as bulky as Mega Swampert itself is. You also seem to act like Mega Swampert holds you back from using Kingdra or Kabutops. Remember back in XY that Kabutops and Kingdra were often used in tandem with one another? Yeah, Mega Swampert can work perfectly well in tandem with Kingdra or Kabutops and form a nice Swift Swim duo, as Mega Swampert can take on Electric-types and sweep while enduring hits well, and Kabutops or Kingdra can then just wipe the floor. Being immune to Thunder Wave is actually a huge niche for Mega Swampert on rain teams because Thundurus-I is a massive threat to the playstyle as a whole. Yes, Manectric and Ampharos are both okay options for a rain team, but they don't take FULL advantage of rain like Mega Swampert does. Mega Swampert just sweeps through offensive teams with its STABs and coverage, and thanks to its impressive bulk (it's almost as bulky as Mega Scizor!!) and great defensive typing (it only has one weakness!!), it is very, very difficult to revenge kill. From my experiences playing against it, you need to play very carefully around it when the rain is active.

Overall, I feel like that post is being pretty unfair to Mega Swampert. B+ is the very lowest it should be, and if it stays there I wouldn't mind at all. In fact, I wouldn't at all be opposed to Mega Swampert rising to A-, though keeping it in B+ doesn't seem like a terrible idea either.

Im not discouting Perts bulk at all, the issue is, you need to be very healthy to be able to sweep. In 1v1 situations, what you say is correct but in the case of consistently sweeping, you need 2 free turns, one to switch in and one to get the mega off. I never said this didnt happen with any other swift swimmers but if theyre doing the same sorta thing without costing a mega, then why use Pert? Volt turn is something that rain in general really needs and the fact that you are forced to used less ideal electric mons like raikou (not saying raikou is bad in any manner but it needs scarf to outspeed certain threats, which loses momentum as easily as it gains it) to fulfill that is something going against Pert.

As for "Using in tandem" that's the exact point Im trying to make. Why should I use Swampert in tandem with Kindra/Kabutops when I can use the two in tandem with eachother? You lose virtually nothing by doing that and gain a mega slot. I also never discounted taking on Thund-I as one of Pert niches nor said that Thund-I isnt a threat to rain but what I did say is that there are plenty of mons that can do that just as well, while doing more unique things for rain. Megaman beats Thund 100% of the time, no sweat, and, like I said, Seismitoed does a very similar job to Pert without taking up a mega slot, even Kabutops can beat it without being crippled. The fact that Pert takes "FULL advantage" of rain is more of an negative than a positive, mons like Mega Sceptile and Megaman appreciate rain but do not rely on it and are thus useful even after rain runs out.

What Im trying to say is that Mega Swampert does nothing special for rain, it competes for a teamslot with other swift swimmers, other megas and does very little to differentiate itself from those it competes with. For some reason, all of you seem to only count opportunity cost when you feel like it, but Megapert competes for so many things that idk how you can't see it dropping.

 

[Arcanine is Regal]

I wanted to talk about quagsire as I think it is more important to stall now more than ever. I mean his main role was to stop mega charizard x but even then it couldnt switch into an adamant outrage. But now I think he is almost mandatory unless stall just wants to outright lose to belly drum azu, I talked about him in my last RMT but I will throw up some calcs of common stall switchins to belly drum azu, someone mentioned this ealier and gave calcs, but I cant find them so sorry if I am stealing your thunder.

Hide

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 462-544 (106.9 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 291-343 (87.1 - 102.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 344-405 (97.7 - 115%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 305-359 (86.6 - 101.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 104 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 428-504 (86.1 - 101.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 274-324 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 317-373 (104.2 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO(mega sableye)

Was writing alot about quag and was going to try and justify it to move up, but honestly unaware clefable is just better and handles things like mega gallade much better. Quag has a few niches like stopping most metagross, but even still I think stall is better off with unaware clefable or haze tentacruel to beat bd azu. quag is fine where he is....

But we can all agree bd azu is insane now.

My only question is why do people act like scarf celebi is a unique mega lopunny check? I mean plenty of things with scarf are a lopunny check, I feel like everytime someone mentions celbis viability they mention the scarf set to revenge lopunny. It doesnt make any sense to me, unless you mean it can switch in and then kill because it can live any one attack, but again I feel like there are plenty of scarfers that are capable of this. Im not saying celebi is bad or shouldnt move up because I think it definitely deserves A-, im just wondering why scarf celebi is better than any other scarfer to revenge lopunny or any other mon.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I wrote on Mega Swampert before. I still think it should be lowered to B. Reason is that it's simply not as viable on Rain teams as Kabutops and Kingdra. There's virtually no reason to not use either or both of those two, and there's no cost to them while Swampert takes up the mega slot. And beyond being bulkier, Swampert is not as good a sweeper as them. I've yet to see any Rain team without Kabu and/or King, but I've seen many that don't have Swampert.

 

[Punchshroom]

I wrote on Mega Swampert before. I still think it should be lowered to B. Reason is that it's simply not as viable on Rain teams as Kabutops and Kingdra. There's virtually no reason to not use either or both of those two, and there's no cost to them while Swampert takes up the mega slot. And beyond being bulkier, Swampert is not as good a sweeper as them. I've yet to see any Rain team without Kabu and/or King, but I've seen many that don't have Swampert.

The immunity to Thunder Wave is huge (and is the only reason why Seismitoad even reared its head in OU). Mega Pert also has incredible bulk (relevant against priority) and great power, plus it has respectable neutral coverage, enough to be able to afford Rain Dance on its movesets without losing much effectiveness. I legit cannot see how Mega Pert isn't a great boon to Rain teams, and fail to see how it shouldn't be ranked at least equal to its fellow Swift Swimmers.

 

[Srn]

The immunity to Thunder Wave is huge (and is the only reason why Seismitoad even reared its head in OU). Mega Pert also has incredible bulk (relevant against priority) and great power, plus it has respectable neutral coverage, enough to be able to afford Rain Dance on its movesets without losing much effectiveness. I legit cannot see how Mega Pert isn't a great boon to Rain teams, and fail to see how it shouldn't be ranked at least equal to its fellow Swift Swimmers.

If you wanted an immunity to t-wave, soak up relevant priority, and use up a mega slot, then mega manectric does perfectly fine as well.
Part of the problem is that mega swampert just doesn't bring much to the table that other swift swimmers already don't; it can't do jack shit against stall teams but against offense, where it does kinda shine, the whole playstyle naturally rapes anyway.
You don't get swift swim on the first turn which is more than enough to completely neuter any prospect of bulk you may think it has; it really sucks when you're forced to take a hit to do anything :/
And by running manual rain dance, you lose crucial ice or fighting coverage, both of which you need to even be legitimately threatening imho, while kabutops is 2hko'ing pretty much the entire tier with its STABs and the occasional low kick.
You're not exactly versatile either, every mega swampert carries the same coverage (or loses some with rain dance), has no viable set up moves, and has no options to mess with stall in anyway, its just gonna be complete deadweight against the entire style if ur facing a slightly competent team...

 

[JMach]

I don't think Hera should move down at all. Sure his effectiveness against offense has become worse. But he is a wallbreaker first and foremost. Nobody uses Mega Heracross thinking what it will do to offense, people use him because of his matchup against stall.He is a good wallbreaker mega and one of the few physical attackers that can beat Mega Sableye and Mega Slowbro.

Not only this, but he's a monster with Sticky Web support, which is actually a super anti-meta playstyle atm. Yeah, keep him where he is.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

I'm just going to quote a post I made earlier on Mega Camerupt in its respective discussion thread:

Look, I really like Mega Camerupt, but I also think it's being overplayed a lot in this thread. I get that this thing hits like a semi, but you need a lot more than raw power to really succeed in OU. One cool perk about Mega Camerupt's bulk and defensive typing is that it lets Camerupt check the Electrics, which is cool, but besides that and obvious stuff like defensive Grass-types, it doesn't switch easily into much else. It has a great Fire resistance, but it can't safely switch into Charizard Y for fear of a 2HKO from Fire Blast (almost guaranteed with Modest or Timid + SR), Heatran for fear of Earth Power, or Talonflame for how hard Brave Bird hits. Fairy resistance is great, but Mega Gardevoir's Psyshock 2HKOs after Stealth Rock while Fire Blast can't OHKO back, Calm Mind Clefable just uses you as setup bait, and Azumarill obviously obliterates Camerupt. It also has no form of recovery, which hinders its ability to take hits over longer periods of time, and it's bulk isn't even that amazing. It's only about as bulky as Keldeo on the special side and slightly less bulky on the physical side, which is good but not amazing.

The really low base speed is a very legitimate problem as well. Solid bulk will only take you so far when you're pretty much forced to always take a hit before actually being able to retaliate. While something like Landorus or Greninja may not be able to take a hit nearly as well as Mega Camerupt, it still has a better shot at actually surviving longer if it can outspeed and KO opponents before they have a chance to hit it rather than having to tank hits before even getting the chance to move. I get that such a low speed stat can be good for Trick Room, but if Trick Room was relevant enough to make a Pokemon really viable, then Mega Abomasnow would at least be ranked in the viability ranking thread, lol.

The other big thing I think that really hurts Mega Camerupt is simply the fact that it's a Mega Pokemon. Face it, with all the new Mega forms that arrived in ORAS, the competition for a Mega slot is tougher than ever. While Mega Camerupt can switch into Electrics really well and hit super hard, there are other Mega Pokemon that can do one or both of those things as well while also offering other substantial perks of their own. For example, Mega Charizard X can also check Electrics decently enough while having an even more powerful nuke in Flare Blitz, better neutral coverage between its STABs, better physical bulk, real speed, and reliable recovery to make up for the lower special bulk and to give it significantly greater longevity. It can also take on things like Bisharp, defensive Mew, and Mega Scizor more effectively thanks to the aforementioned greater physical bulk and speed, not to mention that its double Fire resistance makes it better against Charizard Y.

In its own right, Mega Camerupt is a pretty cool Pokemon, but there's just not a ton of incentive for me to use it over other Mega Pokemon unless I just really wanted to use Mega Camerupt. Hitting really hard and checking Electrics is great and all, but when I can do the same thing with Mega Charizard X or do similar things with other Mega forms along with a number of other advantages, I'm probably going to go with them.

I could easily see this thing dropping to B- rank or even C+.

I'll try to make the rest of this quick because I've got to leave in a few minutes, but Mega Latios is a really weird case. On the one hand, I don't see how anyone can argue that it isn't overall better than Latios and Latias. It has a little less special power than Life Orb Latios, but it also has more overall bulk and more physical power on low Atk sets. It has slightly less special bulk than Latias made up for with more physical bulk and more power in general. Then, of course, it has advantages over both Lati twins with less Knock Off damage and lack of Life Orb recoil. The big problem is, as has been said countless times before, Mega Latios just isn't that much better than Latios (and even Latias, for that matter). Most of the time, I'd much rather use another Mega rather than spend my Mega slot on a slightly upgraded Latios. However, I have seen some people talking about dropping Mega Latios to B-, and I really think that would be pretty strange seeing as how it could easily be S rank or A+ at the least if not for the opportunity cost of using up a Mega slot. This is going to be a pretty subjective way of handling this, but I'd like to see it rise to B+ rank and no higher. It's sort of a way of saying, "You're stuck in the B ranks because your opportunity cost is so high, but we're putting you at the top because you're so much better than the other B rank Pokemon in a vacuum."

 

[JMach]

If you wanted an immunity to t-wave, soak up relevant priority, and use up a mega slot, then mega manectric does perfectly fine as well.
Part of the problem is that mega swampert just doesn't bring much to the table that other swift swimmers already don't; it can't do jack shit against stall teams but against offense, where it does kinda shine, the whole playstyle naturally rapes anyway.
You don't get swift swim on the first turn which is more than enough to completely neuter any prospect of bulk you may think it has; it really sucks when you're forced to take a hit to do anything :/
And by running manual rain dance, you lose crucial ice or fighting coverage, both of which you need to even be legitimately threatening imho, while kabutops is 2hko'ing pretty much the entire tier with its STABs and the occasional low kick.
You're not exactly versatile either, every mega swampert carries the same coverage (or loses some with rain dance), has no viable set up moves, and has no options to mess with stall in anyway, its just gonna be complete deadweight against the entire style if ur facing a slightly competent team...

I would argue that PuP can be used on MegaPert to break through stall. It doesn't seem like an unviable option to me, and where I've seen it used, it's performed exceedingly well.

Pert definitely has enough going for it to stay where it is at the very least.