Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread - Check post #2359

[Vert]

Mega Slowbro: A
Azumarill: Stay A+
Gengar: A+
Landorus-I: A+

MBro was a very hyped up 'mon, but you can't get past the fact it is prone to special attackers like Thundurus-I, Mega Manectric, Mega Gardevoir, Dark Pulse Greninja, Latios, etc making it hard to set up. Calm Mind + Iron Defense is completely match up based and useless against stall, since they will Toxic or Taunt you. CroBro is good, but you can't get past the fact that special attackers will fry it before you get a chance to sweep. Both sets can easily be phazed out, and is forced to use Slack Off repeatedly because of its low speed. Substitute Mega Gyarados can easily boost 'till the opponent's team is in oblivion, and considering it is one of the most dangerous threats atm, being set up bait for it sucks. Mega Slowbro can be really easy to wear down as well, and the importunity cost of losing Regenerator is a problem. If we are making a case for Mega Slowbro, it would be its all-out attacker set which hits ridiculously hard OHKOing the majority of Pokemon on HO teams with good prediction while maintaining good bulk to pivot in and out with. It can spread burns efficiently, and checks prominent threats using its great typing and bulk. Its other sets are really good, but I hate how they are match up based and need some threats removed before sweeping due to its aforementioned low speed.

Azumarill's Assault Vest got less effective in this metagame full of "passive damage", but two sets got much better. The decline of Ferrothorn and Amoonguss in the tier made the Choice Band set a lethal weapon. Against HO teams, your opponent is like forced to sack something. You can't just switch in to Choice Band Azumarill. Positive match-ups on all the new Megas is amazing like Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny, Mega Gallade, Mega Diancie, and Mega Sharpedo. Belly Drum is just some kind of magic now that Knock Off + Aqua Jet + Belly Drum is legal. It usually sweeps through entire teams if left unattended, and you have more room to play with it. You can't abuse its good typing, but still a very potent set. The decline in Kyurem-B and some other checks makes Azumarill easy to fit on a team, and still worthy of A+ rank.

Gengar and Landorus-I have already been discussed - A+ worthy.

 

[trc]

I don't know where "a decline in Ferrothorn and Amoonguss" is coming from but I also agree that Azumarill should stay in A+. People are just latching on to the fact that the AV set can't wall Greninja anymore and are assuming that makes it less viable, and normally it would, but Azumarill has gotten better in other regards. The Belly Drum set is the most notable of course, with the Knock Off now being a legal move in with Belly Drum. This is amazing and Azumarill is now very hard to take down if SR support is present for Sturdys and Focus Sashes. Knock Off OHKOes Skarmory, Amoonguss, and Ferrothorn, some of the best BD Azumarill checks in XY, leaving Quagsire and Mega Venusaur as two of the very few main reliable answers left, and both of them aren't /that/ common on stall teams nowadays, even though I feel like Quagsire is a great option on them. The CB set is very threatening to common offenses and it 2HKOes Mega Sableye through burn.

 

[SaberSeven]

Regarding Landorus, Mega Pinsir & Mega Slowbro:

Landorus-I sits at a trollish base 101 speed which is nice for outpacing Mega Zard X & Y, Mega Gardevoir, etc. Landorus has access to Sheer Force to boost options like Earth Power to greater heights. Unlike the faster Gengar, Landorus can boost its speed with Rock Polish or its special stats with Calm Mind. The Greninja usage does hurt it, but one other glaring issue hurts it more: The fact you can't run Landorus-T and get its support due to species clause. That being said, Landorus is still a very potent threat that teams should be prepared for & should remain A+.

Mega Pinsir has that sexy Aerialate Quick Attack coupled with a mighty base 155 Attack. Give it a Swords Dance boost & it'll hit like a truck. The biggest drawback is that it requires Defog/Rapid Spin support. Otherwise, Mega Pinsir is definitely a threat that should be considered when team building. Keep M-Pinsir at A+.

Mega Slowbro has the merit of never getting critted thanks to Shell Armor. Thanks to Shell Armor, M-Slowbro can boost with Calm Mind without worrying about crits. However, Mega Slowbro has some glaring flaws such as a Knock Off weakness, getting busted by Mega Gyarados's Crunch, the rise in usage of Celebi who can beat it with its NastyPass set, and the loss of Regenerator that regular Slowbro possesses. Yes; Mega Slowbro is stronger & has a massive defense stat, but would you rather have Shell Armor or Regenerator as your ability? These factors should be enough to bump Mega Slowbro down to A.

 

[Clone]

Briefly coming out of vacation mode to post on Gengar.

Gengar stays in A+

I honestly see no reason for him to drop. He hasn't changed much in ORAS, but everything else that did change either didn't affect him or benefitted him. For example, many of the current stall builds fall to the LO 3 attacks taunt set as mons such as PhysDef Mega sab, Celebi, Chesnaught, Jirachi, and PhysDef Gliscor are all beaten by Gengar.

Even balance has trouble with Gengar. When Gengar is paired with a VoltTurn core, Gengar has an easy time getting in safely and wrecking shit. I'll tag The DragonKnight because he can vouch for this. I was playing with one of my balance squads while he had Gengar offense, and every time Gengar came in I was pressured to make sub optimal plays. LO Gengar has very few 'counters' and of those, only Tentacruel can fit on balance. This forces the non Gengar user to make less than optimal plays when facing Gengar, which is easy for the other person to take advantage of. Balance teams have to play around Gengar which puts them at a disadvantage that the Gengar user can easily capitalize on.

Finally, let's talk about offense. Offense has no switch ins (bar like AV Raikou and ScarfTar). The LO set gets a free hit every time it comes in, which isn't hard when paired with simple VoltTurn support. Coupled with the fact that many offense mons such as lati@s, Azumarill, mega Altaria, mega Gardevoir, and Mega Metagross are weak to it's STABs, Gengar has an easy time pressuring opponents to making less than stellar plays, which generates easy momentum. Then there's the scarf set that fucks everything up by outspeeding everything and hitting everything hard with a coverage move (use Icy Wind, it's good!!!) which makes offense's life even harder.

I don't see a reason for Gengar to drop in this stage of the meta and as such I support him staying in A+

 

[alexwolf]

On Mega Pinsir, I would say it's almost as good as it was late XY if not better as well, and I don't think it should drop either. Speed means everything in this metagame at the moment, and Mega Pinsir isn't slow, but misses out on a majority of Mega evolutions. However, notice how a lot of the very fast Mega evos, such as Mega Lop, Scep, and Gallade, are all weak as hell to Quick Attack? This makes Mega Pinsir an outstanding answer to many of the new megas, as well as an incredible early game hole puncher. I feel like a lot of people focus on whether or not Mega Pinsir is sweeping frequently or not, but that's not how I primarily view Mega Pinsir anymore. Yes it can clean up weakened teams at +2 once everything is weakened, but with the massive amounts of Scarf Landos and Rotoms and Talons, I mostly view Mega Pinsir as one of the best hole punchers in the meta atm. Scarf Lando isn't very bulky because of its lack of investment, so it's very easy to wear down with repeated Returns and chip damage, Rotom-W as well. With something like Zone as a partner, it's very easy to remove its true counters, such as Skarm. It's only true major flaw is how easily it is pressured by Stealth Rocks, but with the proper support and team pressure, keeping rocks off the field shouldn't be an impossible task.

All I'm saying is that if Mega Pinsir was considered an A+ threat in late XY, I don't really see how it's deserving of a lower rank now. Yes it gained some new checks, but it also gained more usefulness in the ability to check some of the most dangerous new Megas in the metagame. If you're the retard that tries to set up an SD when Lando-T and Rotom-W are still healthy vs just clicking Return and weakening everything, then you deserve to lose.

You are exaggerating Mega Pinsir's ability to check the important MEvos. Mega Lopunny and Mega Sceptile are often behind a Sub, and Mega Gallade is never OHKOed by Quick Attack even after two SR rounds. Being SR weak, unable to revenge kill them under many common battle scenarios, and easily checked by offense is what makes Mega Pinsir not that good of a check to the MEvos you mentioned. On the other hand, Mega Pinsir just can't sweep past offensive teams without immense team support, because they usually carry two checks, such as Scarf Tyranitar, Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Scarf Heatran, Talonflame, Mega Aerodactyl, Kabutops, Omastar, Raikou, Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Scarf Magnezone, and Rotom-W. This means that Mega Pinsir can't apply the immediate pressure it could before against offensive teams, because they have more answers to it. If they fuck up and bring their first check against the wrong move, there is the second check to prevent Mega Pinsir from sweeping. And i haven't even gone to the second big problem, the competition that Mega Pinsir faces from Pokemon such as Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Gallade, which are way more effective in general, as they need less support because none of them is SR weak, provide defensive synergy in the case of Mega Metagross, have more versatility in the case of Metagross and Lopunny, or are straight up harder to wall in the case of Mega Gallade. Plus, all of them sit in a better Speed tier and thus are able to outspeed Pokemon that Mega Pinsir can't. With so many Flying resists running around, Aerilate Return is just not that scary as it used to be.

Concerning Mega Pinsir, I think some people may be looking at it wrong. I don't really look at Pinsir as a sweeper first, I look at it as a wallbreaker first that happens to have pretty good sweeping potential as well. It's interesting that TRC brought up stall being closer to early XY stall, as XY stall had a ton of issues with Pinsir even before Aegi got banned (back when Pinsir had to run Earthquake, leaving it hard walled by Skarm). Skarm can easily be overwhelmed by teammates, and CC 2HKOs at +2 anyway. I guess non-Mega Sableye can Prankster burn it, but even then it has to be in reasonably good health to revenge-burn it at +2. The way it absolutely massacres stall, combined with the way it still holds it's weight against balance and offense unlike other wallbreakers gives it a strong case for staying in A+.

You are forgetting physically defensive Hippowdon with a Rock move, Mega Slowbro, physically defensive Landorus-T, Rhyperior, Doublade, and Zapdos as counters to Mega Pinsir that stall can run. That's a pretty varied list to choose from, and half of them have reliable recovery if you don't like relying on Wish support.

 

[theV8man]

You are exaggerating Mega Pinsir's ability to check the important MEvos. Mega Lopunny and Mega Sceptile are often behind a Sub, and Mega Gallade is never OHKOed by Quick Attack even after two SR rounds. Being SR weak, unable to revenge kill them under many common battle scenarios, and easily checked by offense is what makes Mega Pinsir not that good of a check to the MEvos you mentioned. On the other hand, Mega Pinsir just can't sweep past offensive teams without immense team support, because they usually carry two checks, such as Scarf Tyranitar, Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, Scarf Heatran, Talonflame, Mega Aerodactyl, Kabutops, Omastar, Raikou, Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Scarf Magnezone, and Rotom-W. This means that Mega Pinsir can't apply the immediate pressure it could before against offensive teams, because they have more answers to it. If they fuck up and bring their first check against the wrong move, there is the second check to prevent Mega Pinsir from sweeping. And i haven't even gone to the second big problem, the competition that Mega Pinsir faces from Pokemon such as Mega Metagross, Mega Lopunny, and Mega Gallade, which are way more effective in general, as they need less support because none of them is SR weak, provide defensive synergy in the case of Mega Metagross, have more versatility in the case of Metagross and Lopunny, or are straight up harder to wall in the case of Mega Gallade. Plus, all of them sit in a better Speed tier and thus are able to outspeed Pokemon that Mega Pinsir can't. With so many Flying resists running around, Aerilate Return is just not that scary as it used to be.

It's true, offense teams tend to carry some checks to Mega Pinsir. However, this issue is mitigated by the fact a check is a check; you will never find a counter to Mega Pinsir on the opposing team if it's offensively inclined, meaning every time you get a free switch something dies unless your opponent foolishly brings in a check to take a hit. There is also the fact that a big portion of Mega Pinsir's checks are checked/countered back by running a simple balance core, like Rotom-W/Lando-T. Pinsir has always had these issues against offense, and the only difference this time around is that there are more Pokemon common on Offense that can be handled by priority. Speaking of which, you say:

Mega Lopunny and Mega Sceptile are often behind a Sub, and Mega Gallade is never OHKOed by Quick Attack even after two SR rounds

This is kind of an abstract situation in the opponent's favor. If you are facing either of these Megas behind a sub, you wouldn't send out Pinsir, as you should have something else. That being said, if Pinsir really needs to it can beat both of those Pokemon 1v1 even if they are behind a sub just by using Quick Attack twice. I guess you're right about the Gallade thing, although Quick Attack is still really threatening it.
It is true that there is more competition for the Mega slot this time around also. But honestly, if you give Pinsir the right help and let it perform under favorable conditions, it shines as an A+ rank with its superior power and priority. Yes, it needs support, but the reward of giving it that support makes it worth it.

You are forgetting physically defensive Hippowdon with a Rock move, Mega Slowbro, physically defensive Landorus-T, Rhyperior, Doublade, and Zapdos as counters to Mega Pinsir that stall can run. That's a pretty varied list to choose from, and half of them have reliable recovery if you don't like relying on Wish support.

Of these defensive Pokemon, I'd say the greatest nuisance is Hippowdon because it can switch in pretty consistently due to bulk/recovery and sets off SR to boot. Mega Pinsir can outboost and kill Mega Slowbro, and seeing as Magnezone is most likely on my team I can put immense pressure on it. Defensive Lando-t cannot switch in on the turn Pinsir Mega-evolves, and even after it evolves, it's taking a ton of damage from Return without any reliable recovery. Not a huge issue. Rhyperior is quite annoying, but easier to play around than Hippowdon. Doublade is wrecked by Earthquake, which I think is the best option currently. I've gone against many Zapdos teams and have yet to lose to one because when you have a Pokemon that has to defog and counter Mega Pinsir aaaaaaand it's weak to SR the pressure eventually lets it be 2HKO'd by Return. Overall, Pinsir is still amazing against stall, and this is one of its selling points over other megas like Mega Gallade that's easily walled by the most common stall mon atm, Sableye.
Overall, as someone who has used Pinsir pretty extensively, the only thorn in its side is the additional competition but otherwise I'd say it's better this gen and should stay at A+.

 

[Jukain]

The ability of Gengar to shut down common stall builds is vastly overrated. Smart stall builders are beginning employ specially defensive versions of Mega Sableye, as they completely counter Greninja and Gengar. On my team, I run a spread of 252/160/96+, which comes at a lower cost to physical bulk while avoiding the 2HKO from Gengar Shadow Ball, offensive Heatran Fire Blast 91% of the time (could run 252/144/112+ to make this 95%), and every attack from non-Hydro Pump Greninja. Tentacruel has also risen in popularity for its synergy with Mega Sableye and ability to counter Greninja, and counters Gengar too. Two counters might not seen like much, but when one of those is the center piece of stall in the current metagame, Gengar's validity as an anti-stall Pokemon is lowered drastically. Not only this, but the massive Speed creep in ORAS has given Gengar much fewer opportunities to put in work like it could against offenses and even balances in pre-ORAS. Its balance matchup is good, but its matchup against other styles has worsened if anything. I wouldn't be opposed to it dropping into A Rank, especially seeing as it's hard for me to see it on par with, well, almost everything currently in A+ Rank.

Also, I'm on my phone right so I'm not going to make this much longer, but I would like to request that Thundurus be given some room for discussion. Many people that I have talked to, including opinions that I hold in high regard, do not consider Thundurus worthy of S Rank, and I agree with this. It simply is not the same type of metagame-defining or even offensively threatening force as the other S Ranks and has a wealth of common checks/counters. It's easily the most borderline of the current S Ranks and is at least worthy of some discussion right now.

 

[Mijzelffan]

Mega Slowbro has some glaring flaws such as a Knock Off weakness

So mega slowbro is weak to a move with a lower base power than nigh slash, that's not a big deal. Most pokemon will hit it harder with a neutral STAB attack than with a super effective knock-off.

 

[JMach]

The ability of Gengar to shut down common stall builds is vastly overrated. Smart stall builders are beginning employ specially defensive versions of Mega Sableye, as they completely counter Greninja and Gengar. On my team, I run a spread of 252/160/96+, which comes at a lower cost to physical bulk while avoiding the 2HKO from Gengar Shadow Ball, offensive Heatran Fire Blast 91% of the time (could run 252/144/112+ to make this 95%), and every attack from non-Hydro Pump Greninja. Tentacruel has also risen in popularity for its synergy with Mega Sableye and ability to counter Greninja, and counters Gengar too. Two counters might not seen like much, but when one of those is the center piece of stall in the current metagame, Gengar's validity as an anti-stall Pokemon is lowered drastically. Not only this, but the massive Speed creep in ORAS has given Gengar much fewer opportunities to put in work like it could against offenses and even balances in pre-ORAS. Its balance matchup is good, but its matchup against other styles has worsened if anything. I wouldn't be opposed to it dropping into A Rank, especially seeing as it's hard for me to see it on par with, well, almost everything currently in A+ Rank.

Also, I'm on my phone right so I'm not going to make this much longer, but I would like to request that Thundurus be given some room for discussion. Many people that I have talked to, including opinions that I hold in high regard, do not consider Thundurus worthy of S Rank, and I agree with this. It simply is not the same type of metagame-defining or even offensively threatening force as the other S Ranks and has a wealth of common checks/counters. It's easily the most borderline of the current S Ranks and is at least worthy of some discussion right now.

You make some good points about Gengar being overrated as a stallbreaker. However, you can't deny it still puts massive pressure on the opponent to keep Megalye healthy enough - which can be a tough job when you consider how integral it is to most stall teams.

The second thing worth noting is TBolt's effectiveness on LO 3 attack sets. Same applies for things like EB / Giga too I guess, but Gengar can pretty easily tweak its coverage to fit the team it's on (similarly to Ninja), and can therefore shut down Tenta too if it needs to.

On the issue of speed creep, you again have a point. Gengar isn't really one of the fastest around anymore. And this is a negative. However, more speed creep = more offensively oriented teams = a much harder time switching in = a field day for our phantom friend. This is a positive.

And that's why I feel Gengar shouldn't drop. It may not always single-handedly dismantle stall, but it massively pressures it. It's strong, versatile, its Scarf set has gained viability, the STAB buff is better than ever and it's such a bitch to come in on... I personally believe that's enough to counterbalance the negative stuff this gen.

On Thundurus however, I completely agree. Prankster T-Wave is nice but it seems to be the only thing I end up slapping in on a team for. I also find that electric types are pretty prevalent ATM because Mag is still good and the metagame has heavily adapted to MegaBro. Scarf Lando is also such a thing, and Thundy either takes a SE or just gets straight Turned on into something for momentum. Still A+ worthy IMO bit definitely not in the same league as Ninja.

 

[Alfalfa]

Thundurus was considered an S Rank in early ORAS due to being able to pressure most of the new megas, but I really do not think the metagame has changed enough to the point that Thundurus-I checks are completely non-prevalent. Most teams still prepare for it, so it really has not changed that much since XY. I agree that it should drop to A+ Rank.

 

[alexwolf]

Wait a bit before talking about Thundurus guys. Once we are finished with the current Pokemon up for discussion (should be over in a few hours), and B- and C+ ranks (in a week), we will start re-examining all the established rankings.

It's true, offense teams tend to carry some checks to Mega Pinsir. However, this issue is mitigated by the fact a check is a check; you will never find a counter to Mega Pinsir on the opposing team if it's offensively inclined, meaning every time you get a free switch something dies unless your opponent foolishly brings in a check to take a hit. There is also the fact that a big portion of Mega Pinsir's checks are checked/countered back by running a simple balance core, like Rotom-W/Lando-T. Pinsir has always had these issues against offense, and the only difference this time around is that there are more Pokemon common on Offense that can be handled by priority. Speaking of which, you say:

This is kind of an abstract situation in the opponent's favor. If you are facing either of these Megas behind a sub, you wouldn't send out Pinsir, as you should have something else. That being said, if Pinsir really needs to it can beat both of those Pokemon 1v1 even if they are behind a sub just by using Quick Attack twice. I guess you're right about the Gallade thing, although Quick Attack is still really threatening it.
It is true that there is more competition for the Mega slot this time around also. But honestly, if you give Pinsir the right help and let it perform under favorable conditions, it shines as an A+ rank with its superior power and priority. Yes, it needs support, but the reward of giving it that support makes it worth it.

Of these defensive Pokemon, I'd say the greatest nuisance is Hippowdon because it can switch in pretty consistently due to bulk/recovery and sets off SR to boot. Mega Pinsir can outboost and kill Mega Slowbro, and seeing as Magnezone is most likely on my team I can put immense pressure on it. Defensive Lando-t cannot switch in on the turn Pinsir Mega-evolves, and even after it evolves, it's taking a ton of damage from Return without any reliable recovery. Not a huge issue. Rhyperior is quite annoying, but easier to play around than Hippowdon. Doublade is wrecked by Earthquake, which I think is the best option currently. I've gone against many Zapdos teams and have yet to lose to one because when you have a Pokemon that has to defog and counter Mega Pinsir aaaaaaand it's weak to SR the pressure eventually lets it be 2HKO'd by Return. Overall, Pinsir is still amazing against stall, and this is one of its selling points over other megas like Mega Gallade that's easily walled by the most common stall mon atm, Sableye.
Overall, as someone who has used Pinsir pretty extensively, the only thorn in its side is the additional competition but otherwise I'd say it's better this gen and should stay at A+.

Regarding the bolded text. A check is able to switch into some moves of the Pokemon it checks unless it's only a revenge killer, so Mega Pinsir is not guaranteed to KO something every time it comes in, because checks such as Rotom-W, Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie, etc, can take anything Mega Pinsir can throw at them at least once. And when the opponent has two checks, then this means that Mega Pinsir has to get in for free at least two times to weaken sufficiently its checks, and good luck doing this against offense. The best you can do is wear down your checks for another Pokemon to sweep. And no, Pinsir's checks and counters are not so few that they can be countered by a single core. We are talking about offensive behemoths such as Mega Metagross, Mega Manectric, Mega Diancie, Talonflame, and Excadrill, not to mention that this core is extra support for Mega Pinsir, regardless of how good the core is in itself. Every Pokemon in the A ranks can be very effective with the right support, how much support is the question though.

Then, you mention that Mega Pinsir can beat some MEvos in a 1 v 1 situation, which is true but doesn't mean much, unless we are talking about a late-game scenario where the opponent's Mega Pinsir checks are weakened or gone. Mega Pinsir being able to revenge kill those Pokemon is great, but it can't even do this reliably because two of those MEvos commonly utilize Sub, and if you are relying on Mega Pinsir to beat them, this means you don't have a better check. In this case, you are either brining Mega Pinsir in as those MEvos use Sub, or bring in a death fodder as they set up a Sub, and in both cases Mega Pinsir has to face Sceptile and Lopunny behind a Sub. This is why Mega Pinsir is not a reliable check to any of those MEvos.

Moving on, you say that Mega Pinsir can outboost and beat Mega Slowbro when this is not the case:

- +2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Slowbro: 295-348 (74.8 - 88.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
- +2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

- 252+ SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 288-340 (106.2 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
- 252+ SpA Slowbro Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 236-278 (87 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
- 0 SpA Slowbro Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 216-256 (79.7 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And if SR is not up and Mega Slowbro is not running SpA investment, there is always Thunder Wave.

You can nitpick the defensive counters to Mega Pinsir all you want, but the fact that Mega Pinsir has one more defensive counter and two great offensive checks doesn't change, and being a very shaky check to three new MEvos is not nearly enough to counterbalance this. Oh and let's not forget that one of those new checks is an S rank Pokemon and one of the most threatening offensive Pokemon around, not some easy to take advantage of passive Pokemon.

 

[alexwolf]

So, here are the results:

Gengar: Stays in A+
Landorus: Stays in A+
Mega Pinsir: A+ ---> A
Mega Slowbro: A+ ---> A


Now, let's start discussing about B+ and C- ranks.

 

[Aragorn the King]

I'm just going to bring back Mega Houndoom for B Rank:

I think Mega Houndoom improved in the shift to ORAS, and that it deserves to move up to B. Before, it was more of a niche stall breaker that could break stall, but really struggled v. offense, since Keldeo and Azumarill were so prevalent. This generation helped Houndoom in two ways. One, Keldeo and Azumarill are a lot less common, so Houndoom can abuse its golden speed tier against offense with less worry about being checked. However, the bigger reason Houndoom is a lot better now is that Mega Sableye was introduced. Sableye is basically a required mon for stall now, and Houndoom makes its life a living hell, thanks to being immune to Will-o-Wisp, taking reduced damage from Knock Off, taking little to nothing from +1 attacks, and being able to boost up with Nasty Plot faster than Sableye can with Calm Mind. A +2 Houndoom isn't only terrifying for Mega Sableye; non-earth Power Heatran, Mew, Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, Jirachi, and Celebi are all setup bait, and Mega Slowbro is OHKOd after taking, at minimum, 16% prior damage. Versus offense, Houndoom isn't useless as some say, as thanks to its golden speed tier, it revenge kills latios and latias, walls substitute mega latias completely, switches into bisharp, checks mega metagross, revenge kills mega gallade, rks mega scizor, and handles jirachi well, barring flinch hax. Speed has become really important lately; the 110 speed tier especially has exploded, and Houndoom has a great match up v. all of them except diancie, who admittedly is a great check. Mega Altaria also exists, which is a little annoying for Houndoom. However, even considering those two new mons, Houdoom's matchup v. stall and offense has improved, and I think it should move up.

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Klefki should be B+ Rank at the very least (and if that's too high, then B would be good) imo. It is just super useful right now. Its Prankster Spikes and Dual Screens support is extremely useful, being able to quickly provide immense amounts of support for any offensive team in need of a hand. It has a great defensive typing that allows it to endure hits from much of the metagame and can very reliably set up fast Spikes and Dual Screens. Fairy Lock is also an extremely clutch move, so that when Klefki is about to die, you can lock that opponent in and proceed to finish them off with one of your teammates. The good thing about that is that they can't switch out of your mon, so they are trapped for the turn and prone to being knocked out. Klefki is just a super valuable mon right now and should be B+ minimum imo, although B would also be fine if enough people disagree.

Mega Houndoom should be B Rank because it has a sick STAB combo, awesome Speed, etc. Will call on other people who posted earlier to elaborate.

Idk about these but maybe Togekiss and Sylveon could be B Rank. Both are very solid Fairy-types in this meta and do have extra nice value in beating broken Mega Sableye. Their offensively oriented sets are quite decent right now, as Specs Sylveon hits really freaking hard with Pixilate Hyper Voice, and can provide easy momentum by dry passing with Baton Pass. Its cleric set is also okayish too. Togekiss's NP set is a strong stallbreaker and it's impressively bulky plus having Air Slashes that flinch is dope. Its defensive NP set is also not a bad idea either, and NastyPass is sexy too. Idk about these since I know Clef and Mega Garde exist but I think it's worth considering.

Gothitelle should be B+ at least because Shadow Tag is such a cheap ability and Gothitelle traps effectively and its niche is very valuable for mons like Mega Sableye and Mega Metagross, don't feel like talking more but yeah there's that.

I think everything else looks fine, all we need to do imo is bump a few mons up from B- and we're good lol.

 

[Gary]

Much like Aragorn just gonna c/p my old Mega Doom for B argument one last time hopefully lol. I feel like a whore.

I think Mega Houndoom should be moved up to B rank. At first, I didn't really see any reason to run Mega Doom. It's fairly weak because it can't hold a boosting item, and its STAB moves are resisted by common Pokemon such as Greninja, Azumarill, and Tyranitar. On top of that, its got a pretty useless ability unless you're balzy enough to use it on a sun team or something. However, I started testing it a few days ago because I thought it had some potential I just wasn't seeing. Lone behold, I was surprised to see how it excelled quite well in most of my battles and how a lot of offensive teams can have trouble dealing with it. Its typing is actually really cool defensively and offensively, as it is able to stop Mew cold, one of the best support Pokemon in OU, and use it as set up fodder, as well as Mega Sableye, who can't really touch Mega Doom at all. On top of that, its ability Flash Fire, before Mega evolving is really useful, as it can set up on defensive Heatran with Taunt.

And that's the cool thing about Mega Doom. It has a few cool options which makes its last moveslot rather unpredictable and easy to tweak depending on your team. For example, the team I'm using in particular struggles a bit against defensive cores that carry Heatran. So to fix this, I used Taunt in the last moveslot so I can use it to grab a free NP boost and potentially sweep. Taunt is also useful against Chansey, because if you manage to pressure Chansey enough so that it becomes weakened, you might be able to actually bust through Chansey with Mega Doom, because once its Taunted it's forced to Seismic Toss you, so you can just continually do this until it's worn down to a point later in the match where you can set up on it and beat it. Taunt is also useful for preventing shit like CM Clefable and Mega Sableye from setting up on you, while you can return the favor. It also has other cool useful moves at its disposal, particularly Will-O-Wisp which lets you burn shit on the switch, such as Azumarill, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Mega Diancie, Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados. Both moves are equally viable, and are all dependent on what your team needs and what your weaknesses are. If you find yourself struggling against defensive cores, then Taunt is preferred. However, Wisp lets you lure in its common switch-ins so that they're heavily crippled and you can potentially use them as set up fodder later on in the match for something else. There's other cool options such as Destiny Bond, which lets you suicide on Pokemon that you can't OHKO and eliminate them for the rest of the match, which can prove to be very useful.

All in all, Mega Doom is a heavily underrated Mega evolution that is greatly undermined for its lack of amazing coverage as well as a pretty mediocre ability, however it checks a lot of top tier threats in the current meta, such as the Lati twins, Slowbro, Ferrothorn, Mew, Heatran, Mega Venu, Mega Scizor, Gengar, Mega Metagross, and Mega Sableye. It can also disrupt a few common defensive Pokemon that give offensive teams trouble, and despite its somewhat subpar SpA stat, it can actually sweep quite frequently when given the right support. I just think Mega Doom fits a lot better with the B ranked Pokemon than many of the VERY niche Pokemon found in B- rank. It's better than most of them. It's sure as hell equally as viable as Mega Camerupt, which I still don't see how it's that high in the first place.

Also please refrain from commenting on Mega Doom if you've never used it before. Many of the arguments I see against it in the other thread clearly had no clue what specific niches and uses Mega Doom has, and simply stated all the common checks and counters it had while ignoring everything else.

 

[alexwolf]

One thing i forgot, McMeghan is currently inactive so he will be temporarily replaced by Henry , welcome to the team!

 

[trc]

Mega Houndoom is cool. It's one of few offensive Pokemon that completely uses Mega Sableye as setup bait, being immune to Will-O-Wisp, resisting Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, Foul Play, and Knock Off, being immune to item removal, and being able to continually setup Nasty Plots to overpower Mega Sableye with Calm Mind, even Snarl variants due to the +2 boost. Pre-ORAS, its main niche was being able to check Mew for similar reasons, while also having decent utility against stall teams with Taunt, and a nice Speed tier, beating even Latios and Gengar and pounding them with STAB Dark Pulse. While Mew is less common nowadays, Mega Sableye certainly makes up for it, as a free switch-in that takes advantage of it is really nice. Will-O-Wisp like Gary said is also cool for common switch-ins that resist Mega Houndoom's STAB combination. I'm not quite sure why he said you can Taunt Mega Sableye though oO. Also, I'd recommend to all people not comparing Pokemon to Pokemon in the same rank or below when discussing them because the rankings aren't sorted yet. Other than that though, Mega Houndoom should rise to B .

Also, I think Klefki could even be A-, it's such a great Pokemon with priority Thunder Wave, a fantastic typing to check Latios and Greninja, Spikes, and Magnet Rise, turning Scarf Landorus-T into Spikes fodder for a turn. It's really good at the moment, especially with it being able to provide an all-out against some of the top threats like Mega Lopunny. Unfortunate that it can't Thunder Wave RP Mega Diancie, but outside of that, it has a wealth of use against offensive teams.

 

[Karxrida]

Mega Houndoom is cool. It's one of few offensive Pokemon that completely uses Mega Sableye as setup bait, being immune to Will-O-Wisp, resisting Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, Foul Play, and Knock Off, being immune to item removal, and being able to continually setup Nasty Plots to overpower Mega Sableye with Calm Mind, even Snarl variants due to the +2 boost. Pre-ORAS, its main niche was being able to check Mew for similar reasons, while also having decent utility against stall teams with Taunt, and a nice Speed tier, beating even Latios and Gengar and pounding them with STAB Dark Pulse. While Mew is less common nowadays, Mega Sableye certainly makes up for it, as a free switch-in that takes advantage of it is really nice. Will-O-Wisp like Gary said is also cool for common switch-ins that resist Mega Houndoom's STAB combination. I'm not quite sure why he said you can Taunt Mega Sableye though oO. Also, I'd recommend to all people not comparing Pokemon to Pokemon in the same rank or below when discussing them because the rankings aren't sorted yet. Other than that though, Mega Houndoom should rise to B .

Also, I think Klefki could even be A-, it's such a great Pokemon with priority Thunder Wave, a fantastic typing to check Latios and Greninja, Spikes, and Magnet Rise, turning Scarf Landorus-T into Spikes fodder for a turn. It's really good at the moment, especially with it being able to provide an all-out against some of the top threats like Mega Lopunny. Unfortunate that it can't Thunder Wave RP Mega Diancie, but outside of that, it has a wealth of use against offensive teams.

Magnet Rise also lets it troll a surprising number of things, including Sand Rush Excadrill, Garchomp without Fire Blast, Mega Diancie without HP Fire (plus you can kill it with Flash Cannon), and forces Lando-I to use Focus Blast to try and hit it.

 

[Valmanway]

Can we please bring Staraptor down to C+? It's really lost a lot of its usefulness these days. Sure, it provides good offensive support for Bird Spam, threatening Tyranitar and Heatran nicely, but is it really worth using Staraptor now? I mean, we have so many faster things that can revenge kill it, such as all of S-Rank surprisingly, Mega Gallade, Thunderbolt Gengar, Choice Scarf Heatran, Latias, Mega Lopunny, Mega Diancie, Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Manectric, Mega Pinsir, Mega Aerodactyl, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Tyranitar, so the Choice Band set has difficulty performing. The Choice Scarf set, however, does handle a large portion of the Pokemon I listed, but still can't beat Landorus-T, Mega Metagross, Choice Scarf Heatran, Mega Diancie, Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, and Focus Sash Terrakion 1v1, and now it lacks the power to threaten some defensive Pokemon, such as (Mega) Gyarados, Mega Sableye, Slowbro, Hippowdon, and Jirachi. To put it simply, Staraptor needs the power of the Choice Band to break through walls, but it needs the Speed of the Choice Scarf to not constantly be outsped and killed, so its performance in OU is shaky and inconsistent. In terms of its defensive presence, it has next to none, as 85 / 70 / 60 defenses simply will not hold against anything with relative power, especially considering all the recoil it's doing to itself, as well as having a Stealth Rock weakness to boot, so the most you'll ever do with Staraptor is land two or three attacks before biting the dust.

tl;dr The transition to ORAS hasn't been kind to Staraptor, as even though it already had enough things giving it problems, there are even more things that give it problems now, thus greatly diminishing its viability in my eyes. Bring Staraptor down to C+.

 

[Flamer]

as hyped as I am for DD Chomp, please refrain from talking about unreleased moves etc, and their effect on the rankings in this thread until theyre actually released, I think ORAS Meta discussion would be the place to talk about it.

 

[AM]

Some initial thoughts might be ninja'd but w/e don't care.

B- up to B I want to see this move up because its utility in Knock Off I feel is much more appreciated in this meta where there's an over dependency on items for teams to maintain consistency. Drain Punch, Knock Off, Mach Punch, coverage move is all it really needs and can provide itself as a pivot of sorts for both balanced and offensive based teams against such threats such as M-Sceptile and Thundurus while providing its status absorbing abilities for these archetypes as well. This is more from what I've been able to see and use in practice and feel that it's on par with the B rank more so than B-.

B- up to B Scarf Goth is just sweet as it checks a bunch more stuff and threatens so many more defensive builds with ease. It's also worth noting that this is commonly used as a partner among M-Sableye Teams to eliminate Manaphy, which threatens most of these teams. Should be reflected in the rankings as a B rank mon as it breaks defensive cores with ease.

B- up to B Already explained better by others. Read this post and this post for what I agree with.

B- up to A- Read TRC's post a couple of posts back at the bottom of page 85. On top of what he mentioned the ability to soft check SD setters and offensive Psychic types like M-Gross with Foul Play + TWave is something I can't ignore which it provides on top of the amount of utility that Klefki excels at. It makes end games that much easier and even if it lacks any real offensive presence, it enhances the offensive presence or defensive pressure of its teammates whether it be found on Offensive or Balanced builds. Under the support role this is A- to me in this metagame.

Unsure I've been using it more and I'm leaning towards B cause it's a pretty nice late game cleaner from what I've been able to pull off in practice. The fact it gets one good shot of cleaning sort of annoys me but regardless that's the premise of a cleaner anyways so it's not a huge deal for me just interested in other peoples takes on it.

Leaning towards a drop to C+ Read Valmanway's post here where he explained it nicely. I'll need to hear some good justification for it to stay at B- as of right now.

C+ down to C/C- This might sound harsh but let's be honest, why would you ever use this over M-Sableye? It's not even the fact of opportunity cost more so of the fact that you can accomplish the same feats by using regular Sableye and mega evolving whenever you want with the added luxury of not being Tricked items. I really don't see why you would use this as a standalone mon now a days when M-Sableye can function both as regular Sableye and M-Sableye when it needs to.

More opinions necessary Ok as far as opinions I want to see I want to see stuff that actually applies in practice. Stand alone Nasty Plot sets with Air Slash, Aura Sphere/Coverage, Roost, NP are beautiful when I use it or simply Nasty Plot Pass sets to receivers such as M-Sceptile/Heatran to let it both sweep offense and break stall are great tools I've been able to utilize well. A friend of mine said "it seems ok but you'll never see me using it" so this is where I'm coming from. I want to hear peoples opinions on those that have used it well and why you think it warrants a move up, down, or stay doesn't really matter.

I have no opinion yet about other stuff as I'm still testing some various things where Weavile I feel is ok but not necessarily warranting a move up and such things as Cobalion I could see move up because it grabs momentum with Volt Switch, stallbreaks, and counters non Low Kick Bisharp which is pretty important considering how much of a threat it poses for offense and volt-turn teams. That's all I got for now.

 

[jbtc10]

I'm ok with the Pinsir drop, because another thing I was going to say about it is that it has a pretty great substitute (and therefore competition) in Diggersby, who doesn't burn a mega, 2x resists rocks instead of being 4x weak to them thus requiring no hazard support, having 2 immunities which can be used to pivot and create mind games with the opponent and he also hits quite a lot harder;

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 345-406 (81.3 - 95.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 390-460 (91.9 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

That makes a huge (no pun) difference when it comes to breaking walls, as missing out on the OHKO is the difference between being able to sweep, and getting ruined by a Foul Play, Scald, Gyro Ball, etc, which Pinsir has to deal with a lot more frequently than Diggersby and requires much more prior work to sweep.

Diggersby himself is an absolute machine at the moment, and can break stall arguably even better than Manaphy with the right set, which is incredibly valuable seeing as Stall and defensive cores are everywhere right now and Diggersby can just grind them into a pulp. He doesn't necessarily need them, but with the new moves ORAS gave him such as Knock Off, Superpower, Gunk Shot and the Elemental Punches, Diggersby is now virtually unwallable. Unlike Pinsir, he also has other options available like a decent scarf set which can check Gren, nail Lando-T with Ice Punch, be an offensive pivot with U-turn, and even use a Double Dance set. As such, he may even deserve to be in the same rank that Pinsir currently is.

Diggersby @ Life Orb
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Earthquake
- Wild Charge
- Swords Dance

Replay of the set demolishing Stall; http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-195906695

 

[Srn]

Can we please bring Staraptor down to C+? It's really lost a lot of its usefulness these days. Sure, it provides good offensive support for Bird Spam, threatening Tyranitar and Heatran nicely, but is it really worth using Staraptor now? I mean, we have so many faster things that can revenge kill it, such as all of S-Rank surprisingly, Mega Gallade, Thunderbolt Gengar, Choice Scarf Heatran, Latias, Mega Lopunny, Mega Diancie, Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Manectric, Mega Pinsir, Mega Aerodactyl, Terrakion, and Choice Scarf Tyranitar, so the Choice Band set has difficulty performing. The Choice Scarf set, however, does handle a large portion of the Pokemon I listed, but still can't beat Landorus-T, Mega Metagross, Choice Scarf Heatran, Mega Diancie, Sand Rush Excadrill, Mega Manectric, Mega Aerodactyl, and Focus Sash Terrakion 1v1, and now it lacks the power to threaten some defensive Pokemon, such as (Mega) Gyarados, Mega Sableye, Slowbro, Hippowdon, and Jirachi. To put it simply, Staraptor needs the power of the Choice Band to break through walls, but it needs the Speed of the Choice Scarf to not constantly be outsped and killed, so its performance in OU is shaky and inconsistent. In terms of its defensive presence, it has next to none, as 85 / 70 / 60 defenses simply will not hold against anything with relative power, especially considering all the recoil it's doing to itself, as well as having a Stealth Rock weakness to boot, so the most you'll ever do with Staraptor is land two or three attacks before biting the dust.

tl;dr The transition to ORAS hasn't been kind to Staraptor, as even though it already had enough things giving it problems, there are even more things that give it problems now, thus greatly diminishing its viability in my eyes. Bring Staraptor down to C+.

You're definitely missing a super sick ass set i've been using and is absolutely sexy:

Staraptor @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 248 HP / 72 Atk / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Double-Edge
- U-turn
- Final Gambit

Final gambit acts as an alternative option for fighting coverage amazing lure to skarm, lando-t, rotom-w, and literally any other birdspam you so choose you want to get rid of; i end up using it over zone on my birdspam teams due to the fact that turn fucking 1 i can just get rid of scarf lando-t's, which seems to be the only birdspam check ppl even fukin carry nowadays. Scarf zone can't do that for ya ;D it may be more difficult to use but the results are astounding.
Sure, this set isn't anything new, but its been sweet from the start, so it should stay B- because its a cool mix of retaining speed but still picking and choosing what you want to get rid of like CB's ridiculous power does; takes a little more skill to use but w/e

 

[Scaler]

I'm just going to repost this from an earlier post of mine.

Sylveon B- ---> B rank
I feel that Sylveon is in a pretty good place right now and the addition of new megas has really helped it out in particular its choice spec set.

I'm going to focus mostly on the Specs variant of Sylveon as it is the form i have most experience with.

Specs Sylveon is both a fantastic wallbreaker and in some cases anti-lead. I've had a lot of success leading with sylveon

Heres a few Calcs for common leads/switch ins against sylveon.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 337-397 (88.2 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 337-397 (112.3 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 355-418 (100.8 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Ground vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 272-324 (70.6 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 172-204 (49.8 - 59.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 186-219 (55.6 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 100 SpD Mega Scizor: 348-412 (101.4 - 120.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO



A few of the new megas popular at the moment: (They don't say mega as their mega forms are not in the smogon calculator yet but i changed the stats to what they should be so they are accurate)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Diancie: 258-304 (106.6 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Sableye: 330-390 (108.5 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO (this is after 1 calm mind boost for Mega Sableye)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (pre calm mind boost)



Of course Sylveon has its weakness.Some of the Megas/Sweepers it OHKOs can either heavily damage or OHKO themselves (eg. Salamence/Scizor), The blobs give it a lot of trouble and whilst it used to counter greninja, now it can use gunk shot its the opposite. However it is still a very solid pokemon as both a wallbreaker and a cleric/wish passer and definetely worthy of rising to B rank

 

[Albacore]

Doublade needs to move down to C asap, with ORAS it went from being a bad Pokemon with a good niche to a bad Pokemon period. Simply put, all the thing it used to beat have gone down in usage, and MMedicham, one of the big things it was used for has been replaced by Mega-Gallade who beats it. The fact that Pinsir is starting to carry EQ again for Metagross/Diancie is bad news for it too. It doesn't reliably beat Gardevoir since it loses after some prior damage which is really easy to get on it, so really the only big threat to stall it reliably beats is Mega-Heracross. Since many if not most stall teams run Unaware Clefable who deals with Heracross for the most part, and because MHera is kinda uncommon in the first place, it is really hard to justify using especially since you need that teamslot for more important and common stuff (and ORAS brought us a bunch of nice things for stall, it also gave the playstyle more stuff to worry about, so that moveslot you're presumably using Doubalde for is worth a more and has to cover more things). The only reason I would use it on my stall team is if was only weak to all of MGardevoir, MHera, Hammer Arm Metagross, and Close Combat MPinsir and also had a completely free teamslot (not happening on stall as explained) which is way too specific to actually happen. There's a reason you don't really see this thing on stall anymre even though it used to be pretty much required there in XY, and taht's becuase none of the support it provides in walling threats is worth the teamslot anymore anymore especially given how matchup based it is much support you need to provide for it in return. (Also people have stopped using mega wallbreakers to, well, wallbreak, they're now using Manaphy/Gengar/Crawdaunt/Lando-I all of which Doublade completely loses to. So yeah, lots of things going against Doublade rn, lots of reasons for it to drop)

Also this sounds petty as fuck but I think MCamerupt dropped one rank too far. imo doesn't fit in C+ simply because it's flat-out better than anything there. I get that it's a mega and has opportunity cost but no-one is going to convince me it's as bad as MAmpharos. I already made a massive post on Camerupt so I'm not going to go in too much detail, but suffice to say some people have largely exaggerated its flaws and ignored its positive points. It does come in quite easily against a lot of threats, it doesn't rely on prediction as much as you'd think, although it needs to OHKO things it does that pretty often especially vs offense, and from experience although it rarely gets more than 2 KOs per game it gets both those KOs pretty consistently and unless you play dumb or are facing mono water it is almost guaranteed to get one kill per match (again this is mostly going from experience which I have a lot of with this mon). Almost every team right now has something Camerupt beats so it is able to put in work almost every match, and although it does need some support to be effective I think that's something you can forgive a B- rank for. So yeah I would actually move Camerupt up one rank to B-.

some quickfire opinions on other B-/C+ ranks : Agreeing with Klefki rise to A- for reasons mentioned. Conk is a bit better now I guess but I don't know if it's on par with the other B mons. Also let's not forget that it's even more completely useless against Stall than it used to be b/c Sableye hardwalls it to oblivion, but it definitely puts in work vs offense+is not too bad vs balance either so this could go either way. Cresselia could possibly move up to B too b/c it benefits a lot from a faster metagame but not sure about this one because it's setup fodder for a bunch of things and such. Empoleon isn't as good as it was when every Greninja didn't carry Low Kick but it's still a solid mon and a good defogger+rock setter so I can see it moving to B. Sylveon's Specs set is very good offensive glue and I think it should move to B on those merits. Mega Doom should move up to B because of Mega-Sableye stall, Regular Sableye should move down to like, C- because there is no reason to not run it over the mega unless you have a Mega slot already open, and Mega-Sableye is almost always worth the mega slot. Magneton could maybe move up to B- b/c it pivots into Greninja Gunk Shots and Ice Beams, checks SD Talon (most common Talon set by far) and generally just traps stuff for Metagross/Diancie/Altaria (all of which are vulnerable to Greninja besides I guess Diancie b/c hydro is getting less common).