Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Jaroda]

Just want to say that Mega Man really does not want to be switching into physical attacks willingly. As you can see, even resisted hits can hurt.

-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 93-111 (33 - 39.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 99-117 (35.2 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 271-319 (96.4 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 183-216 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 151-178 (53.7 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Mega Man doesn't have the resistances, immunities, or bulk of Landorus-T to switch into many physical attackers. Lando-T's bulk is 89/90 compared to 70/80, and Lando-T can afford to invest in them. Ideally, Mega Man comes in after something has been killed, or he was Voltturned in itself. It's supposed to use its sheer speed, good special coverage, and Intimidate to deter otherwise physically strong attackers from staying in, and then abuse Volt Switch. It's supposed to be played like Genesect really, and ideally never takes damage it knows it can shrug off, like less that 25%. Only thing I could recommend it switch into willingly is non-STAB Knock Offs.

Anyway, played in this fashion to its strengths, Mega Man is certainly still A material in my book, and certainly on par with most of the other A rank mon. The opportunity cost is kind of moot when Mega Man's style is so utterly unique. It's such a threat to offensive teams, and such a natural pairing with Landorus-T it's ridiculous. A megamon doesn't have to be your sweeper guys. It and Lando-T and hazards can wear down the enemy team overall enough for any number of good non-mega cleaners to perform like SD Talonflame, Serperior, Dragonite, BD Azumaril, etc. Hell, perhaps even Feraligatr as is being mentioned.

Speaking of which, we should just drop talking about Feraligatr. To the people proposing sets, this is not the thread to theorize what may work, this thread is to conclude the current viability and impact the mon has on the current metagame, and Feraligatr hasn't been in use long enough or there enough experience to nominate a placement outside of pure speculation. Just give it a few weeks first. For now, Feraligatr stays unranked. Just for now.

Side note though, whoever recommended an item other than Life Orb for Gatr, no. Just no. Anything with Sheer Force gets Life Orb, it's the golden rule.

 

[bb skarm]

I'm going to ask to bring Serperior up to B rank. Serperior, simply put, is a train that has no brakes. Serperior's way of simply firing off a nuke of an attack and getting +2 on it without having to take a turn to set up makes it an incredibly hard Pokemon to stop. +2 Leaf Storm or Dragon Pulse easily muscles through many of Serperior's checks (bar heatran) easily after Stealth Rock, and only a select amount of Pokemon can *actually* reliably beat Serperior by either being faster, having a type advantage (very unreliable because even shit like Mega Altaria take about 55-70% damage at +2 which is berserk), or having a Speed advantage, such as Pidgeot/Tornadus. Not even Stall can handle Serperior, actually. Chansey is eventually just 2HKOed, Unaware Clefable is 2HKOed fullstop, Cresselia is 2HKOed, just everything dies.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 196-231 (30.5 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 294-347 (45.7 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And then obviously you just regain your health with Giga Drain after the +6 hit.

To reiterate on what I mean when I say about "resists are easily muscled through":

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 230-272 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 256-302 (94.1 - 111%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 309-364 (103.3 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 214-252 (67.2 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (granted you'll be t-waved but yeah)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 178-211 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So obviously at +2 (which is so fucking easy to get) Serperior just is anal to deal with. To top this all off, base 113 Speed means that it outspeeds the coveted 110 Speed tier, and outspeeds just up to Thundurus, which is actually just absurd. So, honestly, we're dealing with a monster that takes no turns to do ridiculous damage and outspeeds half the metagame. Move to B

 

[AM]

Speaking of which, we should just drop talking about Feraligatr. To the people proposing sets, this is not the thread to theorize what may work, this thread is to conclude the current viability and impact the mon has on the current metagame, and Feraligatr hasn't been in use long enough or there enough experience to nominate a placement outside of pure speculation. Just give it a few weeks first. For now, Feraligatr stays unranked. Just for now.

This also isnt the place to speak on behalf of the ranking team as if the statement you put that I bolded and underline should be considered the final decision. Perhaps you just worded it poorly but double check next time before you make claims like this. If and when feraligatr is brought up it can be discussed. Theorymon spreads and ideas I guarantee you will not be taken into consideration by us. Thanks.

 

[TrollinSableye]

Completely disagree with this, while mega man does take up a mega slot it is ultimately a better and more reliable raikou. It boasts similar defensive utility to av raikou although on the physical side with intimidate whilst being able to get past ferrothorn. It is also far less prediction reliant than specs raikou as it has the ability to change moves, and if it is a fair bit more powerful than the weak unboosted raikou.

I agree with this, but it's the fact that even though Mega Man can hit some stuff that's common in the metagame, it's just not worth using. Choice Specs Raikou has better Sp. A than Mega Man, and if it's a Choice Scarf one, It outspeeds Mega Man. All in all, I don't think that Mega man is special because Raikou is a lot more versitile than Mega Manetric and there, imo, better intimidaters out there

 

[phoenix0wright]

I agree with this, but it's the fact that even though Mega Man can hit some stuff that's common in the metagame, it's just not worth using. Choice Specs Raikou has better Sp. A than Mega Man, and if it's a Choice Scarf one, It outspeeds Mega Man. All in all, I don't think that Mega man is special because Raikou is a lot more versitile than Mega Manetric and there, imo, better intimidaters out there

Except that completely ignores the pros of Mega Man. If Raikou is running scarf, Manectric is stronger. With Specs, Manectric is appreciably faster. In addition, Manectric has the freedom to switch moves (which is a huge deal) while maintaining its blazing speed and good power. Throw in the fact that Manectric has neat coverage options in Flamethrower/Overheat and a much better ability in Intimidate (allowing it to check a wide range of physical attackers), and there's a plethora of reasons to use it over Raikou. Manectric is fine where it is.

 

[p2]

I agree with this, but it's the fact that even though Mega Man can hit some stuff that's common in the metagame, it's just not worth using. Choice Specs Raikou has better Sp. A than Mega Man, and if it's a Choice Scarf one, It outspeeds Mega Man. All in all, I don't think that Mega man is special because Raikou is a lot more versitile than Mega Manetric and there, imo, better intimidaters out there

You can't just directly say that Specs/Scarf Raikou is completely better than Mega Manectric when it just isn't.
Mega Man has the luxury of not being locked into a single move and has a fantastic speed tier, along with the coverage needed to beat Ferrothorn and nail things like Scizor, Excadrill and Metagross.

 

[Caesious]

I'm going to ask to bring Serperior up to B rank. Serperior, simply put, is a train that has no brakes. Serperior's way of simply firing off a nuke of an attack and getting +2 on it without having to take a turn to set up makes it an incredibly hard Pokemon to stop. +2 Leaf Storm or Dragon Pulse easily muscles through many of Serperior's checks (bar heatran) easily after Stealth Rock, and only a select amount of Pokemon can *actually* reliably beat Serperior by either being faster, having a type advantage (very unreliable because even shit like Mega Altaria take about 55-70% damage at +2 which is berserk), or having a Speed advantage, such as Pidgeot/Tornadus. Not even Stall can handle Serperior, actually. Chansey is eventually just 2HKOed, Unaware Clefable is 2HKOed fullstop, Cresselia is 2HKOed, just everything dies.

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 196-231 (30.5 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 294-347 (45.7 - 54%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 390-460 (60.7 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And then obviously you just regain your health with Giga Drain after the +6 hit.

To reiterate on what I mean when I say about "resists are easily muscled through":

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 230-272 (76.9 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 256-302 (94.1 - 111%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 309-364 (103.3 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 214-252 (67.2 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (granted you'll be t-waved but yeah)
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 178-211 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

So obviously at +2 (which is so fucking easy to get) Serperior just is anal to deal with. To top this all off, base 113 Speed means that it outspeeds the coveted 110 Speed tier, and outspeeds just up to Thundurus, which is actually just absurd. So, honestly, we're dealing with a monster that takes no turns to do ridiculous damage and outspeeds half the metagame. Move to B

I agree with Mysteria on Serperior's move from to B rank because, from experience, I have seen it be able to utilize its great speed and virtually free set-up to decimate teams. It can take a couple mons out, and sometimes even a whole team if played well, all by itself.
I would like to add on that Heatran is not even a free counter to Serperior, as I have encountered the occasional HP Ground Serperior. It definitely puts me on my toes when I encounter it. While it is true that this makes Ferrothorn a counter for Serperior, it makes no pokemon able to switch into Serperior expecting 100% to be safe.
Also, another threatening Serperior set is stallbreaker, pretty much just having taunt over Dragon Pulse. This is quite effective in guaranteeing setup and straight up shutting down stall teams, as one does not even have to worry about Chansey and Co. at that point. It encompasses both stall and wallbreaking in quite the deadly combo.

 

[qways]

There are mons that can safe switching into serperior no matter what, like tornadus, sludge bomb venusaur, talonflame and probably more, but those are what i ahve in to my head.
i still agreet that it is very good and could move up.

 

[GOthee]

There are mons that can safe switching into serperior no matter what, like tornadus, sludge bomb venusaur, talonflame and probably more, but those are what i ahve in to my head.
i still agreet that it is very good and could move up.

OR kyurem or talonflame., there are just many pokemon able to switch into it. Changing a move to be able to hit Heatran doesnt give him a higher rank in my book.

 

[Caesious]

OR kyurem or talonflame., there are just many pokemon able to switch into it. Changing a move to be able to hit Heatran doesnt give him a higher rank in my book.

My point in mentioning HP Ground was not in stating that it has no counters, but rather that if my opponent had Serperior out, I would have no guarantee that Heatran was a safe switch in.
I would also like to add that many Serperiors run Dragon Pulse, so assuming a +2 boost from Leaf Storm on the switch in, Kyurem-B can proceed to get KO-ed.
I have stated, as well as Mysteria in his eloquent explanation, that the reason for Serperior to get bumped up to B rank is for it's high speed coupled with easy set up ability. Contrary was a godsend for this mon, as getting up to +2 AND damaging/KOing a mon in one turn makes it very threatening. It may have counters, but everything else Serperior has the potential to beat one-on-one and come out in a great position.

 

[firehusky]

Pretty much every Pokemon has counters. Just because your Talonflame and your Heatran and your Tornadus and your Venusaur can switch in on my Serperior doesn't mean it's bad. Keldeo is walled by Celebi without HP Bug, Slowbro, Latias, Gyarados, yet it's still an S rank threat. (Not comparing Serperior and Keldeo) Just because Serperior has checks and counters doesn't mean it's bad. Non of your so called counters can even take a +2 or +4 Dragon Pulse except Heatran.

 

[Roxachronic]

Don't undersell Raikou, yeah it requires more prediction because of being locked, but to the one who commented that ''when Raikou is using Specs M-Manectric is faster and when it is using Scarf Mega Manectric is stronger'' remember that it goes both ways, because Specs Raikou is way stronger than M-Manectric and Scarf is way faster than it, especially because the difference in power or speed Raikou has over M-Manectric is more substantial depending on that.

Also Raikou does not cost a Mega slot, which is a huge deal, being locked into a move is not good obviously, but not being able to run Megagross,MegazardX,M-Altaria,M-Diancie,M-Sableye,M-gyarados is a pretty important thing to be took into account if you ask me.

Tough I don't think M-Manectric should drop because it is pretty easy to grab momentum with it and checks a lot of threats right now.

 

[Pottd]

I haven't seen anyone talk about Tyrantrum here yet, and I gotta say it definitely deserves to be ranked somewhere in the C+ to B range, thanks to the fact that it has virtually no switch in's except for Mega Aggron, And and Bronzong (lol). And not only is it very good offensively with a 150 base power, spam-able move it also has some defensive utility since it can perfectly check bird spam.

It has a few different mainly Jolly Band, Adamant Scarf, DD, and can even Run a RP set as well, making it a threat to all different play styles. so What do you guys make of tyrantrum ?

Im just oing to leave a few calcs with the band set so you guy can understand this sting stupid raw power:
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 462-544 (71.9 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 235-277 (59.6 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 232 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 289-342 (54.6 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 250-295 (70.6 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 216-255 (71 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO......

yea

 

[DragonAscent]

I haven't seen anyone talk about Tyrantrum here yet, and I gotta say it definitely deserves to be ranked somewhere in the C+ to B range

Actually, a while back, there was some jibberjabber about how the adamant band set is the best and it probably would be Cish. DD is shit because it's too DDamn slow (:D), and rock polish is pretty okay. It hits a bit less hard than I expect it to, though.

 

[firehusky]

CB Tyrantrum is more of a wallbreaker, so imo Adamant is the way to go. Tyrantrum can outspeed most walls anyways, and Adamant gains a ton of crucial OHKOs.
Supporting Tyrantrum to C or C+.
edit: mother of ninjas

 

[Jaroda]

This also isnt the place to speak on behalf of the ranking team as if the statement you put that I bolded and underline should be considered the final decision. Perhaps you just worded it poorly but double check next time before you make claims like this. If and when feraligatr is brought up it can be discussed. Theorymon spreads and ideas I guarantee you will not be taken into consideration by us. Thanks.

For sure, I wasn't speaking on behalf of the ranking team as if from a point of authority. Just that this threas is not the place for speculation and that rankings should have supportiveevidence

 

[Flamer]

Being out of the meta for a while Ive been wondering, does Megazard X still warrant A+ ranking? I havent really seen it used much both in tours and on ladders and most of its sets appear to have lost a lot of their lustre. Not saying its trash or anything Im just really curious so if someone can enlighten me thatd be great.

 

[SketchUp]

Being out of the meta for a while Ive been wondering, does Megazard X still warrant A+ ranking? I havent really seen it used much both in tours and on ladders and most of its sets appear to have lost a lot of their lustre. Not saying its trash or anything Im just really curious so if someone can enlighten me thatd be great.

Charizard X indeed lost a bit in ORAS, but that is why it went from S to A+. A really is too low for charizard X, as it can easily smack through teams at +1 only being stopped by a few pokemon. Offense stuggles with it if it doesn't have Thundurus (which need to be sacked) Sand Offense or Scarfchomp/Scarfterrak (who both decreased in usage) Stall has a few answers to Zard-X being Alomomola, Quagsire, Slowbro and Hippowdon, but they can all be defeated if there is enough hazard control / residual damage. It really does have some flaws. It pretty much needs to run Jolly to not be revengekilled by Landorus-T, it needs pokemon like Mega Diancie, Azumarill and Tyranitar weakened, especially if it lacks Earthquake and with Mega Sableye as a new spinblocker, a high usage of Bisharp and many fast Taunt users, it is much harder to keep Stealth Rocks off the field. I think A+ is the perfect rank for Zard-X because it can easily beat unprepared teams after one single boost, but the increase of usage of Slowbro, Sand Offense, Heatran and Bisharp make it more difficult to use than in mid-XY.

 

[Kurona]

Well...
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 198-234 (82.1 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It doesn't entirely need Mega Diancie gone, but yeah.

 

[Flarowak]

I have to agree with ranking Tyrantrum, the CB set hits so hard it's ridiculous. It can break through a lot of great walls, and has become pretty scary now with such a hard hitting head smash with no side effects.

 

[TrollinSableye]

Well...
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 198-234 (82.1 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It doesn't entirely need Mega Diancie gone, but yeah.

Why would M-Charizard be Adamant? It'd be outsped by ALL of the Choice Scarfers, including Lando-T, Raikou, etc. But I'm just kidding. I don't think that calcs matter in a thread, but in an actual battle, your gonna need Jolly instead of Adamant (Unless if you set up 2 DD's, which is highly unlikely.)

 

[pika pal]

I think that Zard-X's situation has improved slightly between ORAS's immediate start and now with some of the things changing. As noted, Scarf Chomp and Terra have been dropping in usage, and despite the mons that give it problems on Stall, they actually have some new problems of their own: Tyrantrum and Serperior, the latter in particular. SketchUp mentioned 4 mons in particular.

Alomomola, Quagsire, Slowbro and Hippowdon

All of these get demolished by Serperior and don't like switching into Tyrantrum either
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 437-515 (104 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Mega Slowbro: 377-447 (95.6 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Outrage vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 214-253 (50.9 - 60.2%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And in the case of Serperior, it's not like he's dead weight against offense with Base 113 speed and such easy boosting. Zard-X now has some ideal partners to make sure it can break Stall's cores compared to early ORAS. And maybe I'm not playing the right scene, but I've also noticed a bit of a decline in Azumarill usage, another of its prime Offense checks.

So while Zard-X didn't necessarily improve, some of his more problematic opponents are either more pressured or have declined in usage. I'd say if nothing else, he's much more solidly A+ than he was when ORAS began.

As has been noted a few times, Balance has become more common. How does Zard-X fare against or on current Balance Archetypes?

 

[firehusky]

Heatran is kind of common on balanced teams, and Zard X lacks a way of getting past it without Earthquake. However, once Tran is weakened, Balanced teams are easily destroyed.

 

[pika pal]

Heatran is kind of common on balanced teams, and Zard X lacks a way of getting past it without Earthquake. However, once Tran is weakened, Balanced teams are easily destroyed.

True, though trouble with Heatran is not a new obstacle to Zard-X, and weakening Heatran isn't exactly impossible considering how many things Heatran is kind of used to check, or just as a glue for on some teams. So there's a point in Zard's favor, matching up well against Balance, arguably the most common playstyle right now, while still being able to punch decent holes in Stall.

 

[firehusky]

Zard X's Double Dancer set is also good against all playstyles. Against HO, tailwind helps zard x outspeed common scarfers, while SD really helps out against stall teams.