Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[trc]

Image by Andrew
Credit to PK Gaming for the format​

Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

• EX: Garchomp can be ranked in A tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked under A as supportive threat and Skarmory can be can also be ranked in B tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples.

Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

• trc
• ben gay
• McMeghan
• AM
• Jukain

Below are the definitions of each rank, and they should be read be anyone that wants to participate in the discussion of Pokemon's ranks in OU:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

Here is the list of Pokemon that should be the focus of discussion for the next days:

Empoleon: B- > B
Skarmory: B+ > A-
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B
Starmie: A to A+
Tyrantrum: C+ to B-
Alakazam: C to C+

XY OU Ranking Tier List

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

S Rank

Altaria (Mega)

Keldeo

Landorus
Metagross (Mega)

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

A+ Rank

Azumarill
Bisharp
Charizard (Mega-X)

Clefable

Diancie (Mega)
Garchomp
Gengar
Gliscor

Heatran
Landorus-T
Lopunny (Mega)
Latios
Sableye (Mega)
Scizor (Mega)

Talonflame
Thundurus

A Rank

Alakazam (Mega)
Celebi
Charizard (Mega-Y)
Excadrill

Ferrothorn
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gyarados (Mega)

Hippowdon

Latias

Latias (Mega)

Manaphy
Manectric (Mega)

Rotom-W

Slowbro

Slowbro (Mega)

Starmie
Tornadus-T
Tyranitar
Venusaur (Mega)

A- Rank

Aerodactyl (Mega)

Gallade (Mega)
Gyarados

Jirachi
Klefki
Kyurem-B
Mamoswine
Mew
Pinsir (Mega)

Politoed
Raikou

Volcarona

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

B+ Rank

Breloom
Chansey
Chesnaught

Diggersby

Dragalge
Dragonite

Heracross (Mega)

Kabutops
Kingdra

Magnezone

Serperior
Skarmory
Suicune
Swampert (Mega)

Tentacruel
Terrakion
Togekiss
Victini
Weavile


B Rank

Amoonguss

Azelf
Beedrill (Mega)
Conkeldurr

Crawdaunt
Cresselia

Empoleon
Gothitelle
Hawlucha

Hydreigon
Quagsire
Omastar

Sceptile (Mega)

Scizor
Scolipede
Sharpedo (Mega)
Slowking
Zapdos

B- Rank

Alakazam

Alomomola

Feraligatr
Garchomp (Mega)
Houndoom (Mega)
Lucario

Mandibuzz

Medicham (Mega)

Reuniclus

Sylveon
Tangrowth
Toxicroak

Tyranitar (Mega)

Tyrantrum

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

C+ Rank

Bronzong
Cobalion

Gastrodon

Heracross
Magneton

Pidgeot (Mega)
Rhyperior
Seismitoad
Staraptor

Thundurus-T
Wobbuffet

C Rank

Absol (Mega)

Ampharos (Mega)

Blastoise (Mega)
Blissey

Camerupt (Mega)

Entei
Goodra
Infernape

Latios (Mega)

Porygon2
Shuckle

C- Rank

Aggron (Mega)

Ditto

Dugtrio

Emboar

Espeon

Gourgeist-XL

Kyurem

Noivern

Pangoro

Smeargle

Whimsicott
Zygarde

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

Chandelure

Cloyster

Cofagrigus

Diancie

Doublade

Exploud

Forretress

Gardevoir
Glalie (Mega)

Haxorus

Honchkrow
Froslass
Gorebyss

Ludicolo

Metagross

Mienshao

Rotom-H
Sableye

Salamence

Shaymin

SETS: If looking for sets they can be found in the preliminary pokedex sub-forum along with the OU Analyses sub-forum for WIP.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/preliminary-pokedex.304/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/forums/ou-analyses.255/

''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON: Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.

• None yet

BLACKLISTED POKEMON: Pokemon that are not only unviable in OU, but also make the thread shitty whenever they are brought up because most people that argue about them getting ranked are inexperienced players using bad arguments.

• Florges
• Donphan
• Heliolisk
• Darmanitan
• Jolteon
• Milotic
• Tauros

Rules

• Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated
• No flaming
• Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
• No talk about editing the OFFICIAL Smogon tier lists.
• PKGaming is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.

Happy posting ♪♪

 

[trc]

The results of the vote will be posted once I make my vote when I get back from holiday, in 2 days. Feel free to discuss any rankings until then

 

[Karxrida]

The results of the vote will be posted once I make my vote when I get back from holiday, in 2 days. Feel free to discuss any rankings until then

WHY DO YOU MAKE US WAIT?!?!?

Also, I suggest pinning this to the top of the page, cause that's what we do, yo. Fo shiz yo miz.

Anyway.

Bring back up vanilla Gardevoir for D-Rank. Like I said before, it's a passable Scarfer that's able to revenge Weather Sweepers, give a fast Destiny Bond as a "screw you" or Healing Wish for Offense, and can sometimes (key word here is sometimes) clean lategame with Fairy STAB. It definitely has issues like having to rely on Scarfed Focus Blast for some kills, having difficulty switching into some stuff (okay, a lot), and the obvious opportunity cost, but it's not totally unviable.

Also rip alexwolf ;-;

 

[Vengeance417]

What exactly is Slowking's niche that makes it C rank? There has never been an OU game I've played, not even lower ladder, that has it around for me.

Also, is Mega Pidgeot all that bad for it to be C-? Yeah, its movepool is criminally shallow, and it isn't all that powerful, but it sits at a really good speed tier of 121 (it ain't Mega Lopunny and Mega Sceptile good, but not a lot of mons have speeds of 120 and higher) and having access to 100% accuracy Hurricane coming off 135 SpA can make it a decent late-game cleaner. Imo, it's a better mon in OU than Gourgeist-small, Noivern and Blissey. I say Mega Pidgeot for C.

 

[Karxrida]

What exactly is Slowking's niche that makes it C rank? There has never been an OU game I've played, not even lower ladder, that has it around for me.

Also, is Mega Pidgeot all that bad for it to be C-? Yeah, its movepool is criminally shallow, and it isn't all that powerful, but it sits at a really good speed tier of 121 (it ain't Mega Lopunny and Mega Sceptile good, but not a lot of mons have speeds of 120 and higher) and having access to 100% accuracy Hurricane coming off 135 SpA can make it a decent late-game cleaner. Imo, it's a better mon in OU than Gourgeist-small, Noivern and Blissey. I say Mega Pidgeot for C.

Theoretically, Slowking is a Special Tank with AV + Regenerator that isn't a passive fuck, and I think it's a consistent Specs Keldeo switch-in (but I'll have to calc that).

EDIT:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 124-147 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 90-106 (22.9 - 26.9%) -- 32.1% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 86-102 (21.8 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Slowking: 180-214 (45.8 - 54.4%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 122-144 (31 - 36.6%) -- 61.7% chance to 3HKO

0 SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 188-224 (58.2 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Talk about consistent; I'm honestly surprised this thing isn't used more. Here's some more "just for fun" calcs.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 172-203 (43.7 - 51.6%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO (guaranteed after Stealth Rock).
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 125-148 (31.8 - 37.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Dark Pulse/Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 133-159 (33.8 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 103-122 (26.2 - 31%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

 

[Grim]

With a moveset of Scald, Psyshock, Fire Blast, Dragon Tail, Assault Vest Slowking is a very good check/counter to a lot of threats, most notably indeed Keldeo. C- for M-Pidgeot does indeed look harsh. Not sure where it should go, but it definitely is better than that.

to at least C+. Saw this in C- too, and Volcarona deserves better than that. A set of Quiver Dance, Fire Blast, Bug Buzz, HP Ground / Giga Drain hits very hard, while bulky Quiver Dance, Roost, Fiery Dance, Bug Buzz sets are also pretty legit. It definitely needs support to remove certain pokemon depending on the nature and coverage it's using, but that support is not that hard to provide. Defog / Rapid Spin and birdspam checks should be on like all teams anyway, and Heatran can be trapped by Dugtrio or just be lured by something like Earthquake Latios.

to B-. One of the best teammates for M-Sableye because it beats most Fairy-types, but it's also just a good pokemon in general that provides a lot of utility to stall or balance with moves like Rapid Spin, Scald, Acid Spray, Toxic Spikes, Knock Off as well as a very good typing that makes it a pretty decent Keldeo answer, something all teams should have like boltsandbombers stated in the previous thread. It also has two cool abilities in Liquid Ooze and Rain Dish, the former trolling defensive M-Venusaur and Ferrothorn, and the latter walling the shit out of the specially based rain sweepers like Omastar and Kingdra. The only thing holding it back is that it has no reliable recovery.

to B-. Although M-Medicham is mostly outclassed by M-Gallade, I think it deserves to move up to B- because I personally believe it's a way better wallbreaker than M-Gallade right now. Unaware Clefable is the norm at the moment, and it walls M-Gallade comletely unless you have like rocks + 3 layers of spikes up. M-Sableye being everywhere also does not help Gallade at all, because it needs a somewhat gimmicky Skill Swap set to defeat it, which forces it to give up Swords Dance, the move that makes it such a cool wallbreaker. Now you might ask, how does M-Medicham do any better against M-Sableye? The answer is Foresight. A set of High Jump Kick, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, Foresight lures M-Sableye and easily OHKO's it with HJK. With most stall teams only having M-Sableye as their M-Medicham answer thinking they don't need another one, it does a very great job at breaking the most popular stall teams at the moment.

I also support Dragalge moving up because it's pretty good and is way better than the other C pokemon.

 

[zbr]

to B-. One of the best teammates for M-Sableye because it beats most Fairy-types, but it's also just a good pokemon in general that provides a lot of utility to stall or balance with moves like Rapid Spin, Scald, Acid Spray, Toxic Spikes, Knock Off as well as a very good typing that makes it a pretty decent Keldeo answer, something all teams should have like boltsandbombers stated in the previous thread. It also has two cool abilities in Liquid Ooze and Rain Dish, the former trolling defensive M-Venusaur and Ferrothorn, and the latter walling the shit out of the specially based rain sweepers like Omastar and Kingdra. The only thing holding it back is that it has no reliable recovery.

I agree with this nomination, but not now. I think that until Gren gets officially banned (or otherwise), there shouldn't be any movement of this mon. Simply because the main reason this mon became more dominant was because fairies started to run even more rampant than they did before because in the suspect ladder there was no Gunk Shot Gren to stop fairy spam. However, in the current meta, even though he works extremely well in stall, teams are extremely overprepared for MBro and this is what puts him a disadvantage imo.

to B-. Although M-Medicham is mostly outclassed by M-Gallade, I think it deserves to move up to B- because I personally believe it's a way better wallbreaker than M-Gallade right now. Unaware Clefable is the norm at the moment, and it walls M-Gallade comletely unless you have like rocks + 3 layers of spikes up. M-Sableye being everywhere also does not help Gallade at all, because it needs a somewhat gimmicky Skill Swap set to defeat it, which forces it to give up Swords Dance, the move that makes it such a cool wallbreaker. Now you might ask, how does M-Medicham do any better against M-Sableye? The answer is Foresight. A set of High Jump Kick, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, Foresight lures M-Sableye and easily OHKO's it with HJK. With most stall teams only having M-Sableye as their M-Medicham answer thinking they don't need another one, it does a very great job at breaking the most popular stall teams at the moment.

I disagree with this. The main niche about Skill Swap Gallade is that you gain Magic Bounce. With this, you can now burn him while being able to either set up or go for neutral Knock Offs without much fear. Burnt Cham is pretty shitty throughout the rest of the game vs stall even though you can do a lot to msab after foresight. But then again, why would they not switch out after burning you and mega evolving? You lose your hard hitting mon for the rest of the game and when playing against stall, you will need all the wallbreaking power you can get. Foresight also requires you to forgo either bullet punch or ice punch, which will cost you in matchups against offense.

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Although it's most likely far too early to call based on the fact that its Hidden Ability was only released today, I think that B- rank is a good starting rank for Serperior. It plays a similar wall-breaking role to Manaphy, but Serperior is more aggressive due to the fact that it doesn't need to give up a turn in order to set up. A large proportion of the metagame is 2HKOd at worst by two Leaf Storms or one Leaf Storm + the appropriate coverage move. Whilst it has a horrible movepool, at least with a moveset of Leaf Storm/Hidden Power [Fire]/Dragon Pulse/other it can get neutral coverage on everything bar Heatran, which can be trapped by Dugtrio. Sans Heatran, Serperior is able to break through the common Mega Sableye stall teams with relative ease, as even Chansey will be unable to hold up against its onslaught of Leaf Storms, as it is 2HKOd at +6. Obviously it will lose some effectiveness if Mega Venusaur becomes dominant again, but for now it is in quite a favourable position in the metagame. Serperior also has a fantastic speed tier, outrunning Keldeo, Lati@s, Thundurus, Gengar, MegaGross, Mega Gallade etc, giving it utility vs offense. It faces competition with Mega Sceptile, which does better in general vs. offense, but the former has the obvious advantage of not being a Mega Evolution.

I think it could potentially reach a higher rank, possibly up to B+, but for now I think B- is a good conservative estimate. Serperior isn't likely going to be 6-0ing teams all by itself, but with the right support it is almost sure to leave a dent in the opponent's team.

 

[Grim]

I agree with this nomination, but not now. I think that until Gren gets officially banned (or otherwise), there shouldn't be any movement of this mon. Simply because the main reason this mon became more dominant was because fairies started to run even more rampant than they did before because in the suspect ladder there was no Gunk Shot Gren to stop fairy spam. However, in the current meta, even though he works extremely well in stall, teams are extremely overprepared for MBro and this is what puts him a disadvantage imo.

Tentacruel and Fairies were popular even before the suspect ladder was up. No Greninja is not the reason why fairies became more common, it's because of M-Sableye that they did. I don't think that M-Slowbro and Tentacruel are so similar that the overpreparation for Bro reflects that badly on Tentacruel. Bro is a physical wall that can set up as well, Tentacruel is a special wall with almost completely different resistances and weaknesses.

I disagree with this. The main niche about Skill Swap Gallade is that you gain Magic Bounce. With this, you can now burn him while being able to either set up or go for neutral Knock Offs without much fear. Burnt Cham is pretty shitty throughout the rest of the game vs stall even though you can do a lot to msab after foresight. But then again, why would they not switch out after burning you and mega evolving? You lose your hard hitting mon for the rest of the game and when playing against stall, you will need all the wallbreaking power you can get. Foresight also requires you to forgo either bullet punch or ice punch, which will cost you in matchups against offense.

Skill Swap + Swords Dance M-Gallade is horrible because with only two attacking moves it's pretty easy to wall compuared to SD + 3 attacks. Neutral Knock Off's without a boost won't do anything to Sableye while it slowly kills M-Gallade with Dark Pulse or just Foul Play depending on the set it uses.
Obviously you shouldn't let Medi get burned. M-Sableye usually mega evolves first turn to anti lead. It can choose not to, but if you have like a Kleki or just another obvious hazard setter it won't dare to not mega evolve. The scenario I'm talking about is one where M-Sableye has already mega evolved and switches in on it expecting a HJK. Not an unlikely scenario at all. Foresight does not require you to forgo Ice Punch either. M-Medicham always had a free moveslot that could be anything you really want, which was usually Fake Out, but sometimes Bullet Punch or Substitute. You don't lose much by using that slot for Foresight, as M-Medicham is pretty shitty against offense with or without Fake Out; it's primarily a wallbreaker.

 

[zbr]

Tentacruel and Fairies were popular even before the suspect ladder was up. No Greninja is not the reason why fairies became more common, it's because of M-Sableye that they did. I don't think that M-Slowbro and Tentacruel are so similar that the overpreparation for Bro reflects that badly on Tentacruel. Bro is a physical wall that can set up as well, Tentacruel is a special wall with almost completely different resistances and weaknesses.

True. Even before Greninja was suspected, fairies already saw a spike in usage due to M-Sab. However, now that Gren is suspected, there is an even larger reason for players to slap on fairies because there is close to no drawbacks at all (since poison typing isn't common in OU) which gives Cruel more utility (be it as a partner to M-Sab or as a standalone spinner in Balance). Things that are seeing more usage like Specskou (Raikou in general), Thundurus (Both formes), Zapdos, Specszone are not only because they have utility outside of being birdspam checks, but also because they have the ability to keep MBro at bay. I'm not saying it affects Cruel to a large degree, but there are still side effects that prevents it from becoming even better and if anything, I would blame MBro for this.

Skill Swap + Swords Dance M-Gallade is horrible because with only two attacking moves it's pretty easy to wall compuared to SD + 3 attacks. Neutral Knock Off's without a boost won't do anything to Sableye while it slowly kills M-Gallade with Dark Pulse or just Foul Play depending on the set it uses.
Obviously you shouldn't let Medi get burned. M-Sableye usually mega evolves first turn to anti lead. It can choose not to, but if you have like a Kleki or just another obvious hazard setter it won't dare to not mega evolve. The scenario I'm talking about is one where M-Sableye has already mega evolved and switches in on it expecting a HJK. Not an unlikely scenario at all. Foresight does not require you to forgo Ice Punch either. M-Medicham always had a free moveslot that could be anything you really want, which was usually Fake Out, but sometimes Bullet Punch or Substitute. You don't lose much by using that slot for Foresight, as M-Medicham is pretty shitty against offense with or without Fake Out; it's primarily a wallbreaker.

Correct, I should take back the whole "set up in it's face" statement. Considering that M-Lade using SS hinges on the same scenarios as the ones you suggested, I'm sorry for painting a wrong picture. My main point that I was trying to bring across is that you have added options of using SS even outside of playing against M-Sab whereas Foresight M-Cham is pretty specialised. Yes, foresight does indeed give you more options to deal with M-Sab but it's benefits end there (You won't stay in on a Gengar seeing as it's the next relevant Ghost in OU). For M-Lade, SS can be used under almost all scenarios where you force opponent's mons out considering that Inner Focus is not the most optimal ability for M-Lade and for M-Lade, this can easily help it against foes. (i.e, Drill switching in after TTar is sacked will lose it's Sand Rush ability and lose to M-lade (EQ from Drill is a 75% OHKO after rocks). Another example will be Slowbro switching in on any hit other than Knock Off. You SS away his regen so he loses it for the turn and you get to heal up while depriving him of his heals). To sum it up, yes, M-Cham is indeed a good wallbreaker and foresight does help it against M-Sab. But the restrictive nature of foresight doesn't allow M-Cham to gain that much niche to the point where it is on par with Specs Sylveon (You still have the opportunity cost of being a MEvo). Whereas, even though M-Lade became slightly worser due to M-Sab, SS allows you to have a shaky protection against burns (in the M-Sab matchups) while also allowing you to status M-Sab in the process.

Edit: SS M-Lade also has uses outside of temporarily dealing with M-Sab. With Foresight, you lose either the ability to anti-lead, the ability to run sub and dodge statuses against more defensive teams where you would normally shine or you lose a very stable form of priority at the cost of being specialised against M-Sab. Whereas for M-Lade, it can still function normally even if it's running SS + 3 Attacks.

 

[Kurona]

Right, considering we got a brand new thread and a brand new moderator (welcome TRC ), I think the general consensus on certain Pokémon moving up should be addressed from the last thread to remind us all. I'm almost certain TRC's done his own look into it but as someone who regularly reads and posts there, I feel I should give a little reminder on all the rank changes people were generally agreeing on or were discussing. Keep in mind this is mostly from memory so will not be a complete list, and this list doesn't necessarily reflect my own views or indeed the views of all people from the previous thread, but were either hot topics of discussion or things most people were agreeing on.

S-Rank:
Thundurus & Latios to A+

A-Ranks:
Mega Sableye & Mega Lopunny to S
Mega Gallade to A
Mega Heracross to B+

B-ranks:
Magneton & Sylveon to B

C-ranks:
Cobalion to B-
Dragalge & Mega Glalie to move up
Mega Absol & Pangoro to C
Mega Pidgeot to C+/B-

D-ranks:
Jellicent, Metagross, Salamence, Mega Steelix & Venomoth to Unranked
Mega Audino, Cofagrigus & Flygon to ? (There was some debate over whether these should be unranked, moved up in the case of the two former or should stay in the case of the two latter.)
Dugtrio & Heracross to C-/C
Hydreigon to B-

Unranked:
Serperior to C - B rankings
This is something I actually want to talk about a little. Since Contrary was released and even before that there's been a lot of hype around this thing. When it was released, I proposed a prelim D-rank to take baby steps, and then later it was proposed to be in C ranks and then Albacore proposed it to go to B-. Personally, my feeling now is that it's way too good to be in D, but as it was just released - literally, we've had one and a half days with it - we should take baby steps. I'm thinking C or C+ for now, but I'd like to see some discussion.
Gourgeist-XL to C-/C ( Aragorn the King alone vouched for this - unless I'm forgetting someone - but I saw no real arguments against it, hence I'm putting it here.)
Gardevoir to D (Again, Karxrida was the only one really vouching for this and a few people liked his post but none disagreed, and he's gone on to further elaborate here, hence why I'm placing it.)


That's everything I can remember off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's some I'm forgetting - I may even have got some wrong - and of course feel free to add to, elaborate upon or disagree with anything here. It's just a little reminder post more than anything.
A few other things I feel should be addressed are that Emboar with Reckless is getting released tomorrow. I'd propose a D rank for it when that happens (approx 22 hours), but of course not right now. Honestly I'd like to see Jaguar360 's opinion on it as he made the thread on it and seems to have looked into it quite a bit. Another thing to be considered is that Greninja MIGHT be banned on Monday, so keep in mind that rankings may change drastically come that (personally I'd like to vouch for Sylveon to move up should that happen, but another story for another day). Also, not sure why, but this thread isn't pinned like the last one.
Oh and also Cobalion is still using it's Gen 5 sprite. I know I kept going on about it but god that thing is ugly; plz change qq

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

to B-. Although M-Medicham is mostly outclassed by M-Gallade, I think it deserves to move up to B- because I personally believe it's a way better wallbreaker than M-Gallade right now. Unaware Clefable is the norm at the moment, and it walls M-Gallade comletely unless you have like rocks + 3 layers of spikes up. M-Sableye being everywhere also does not help Gallade at all, because it needs a somewhat gimmicky Skill Swap set to defeat it, which forces it to give up Swords Dance, the move that makes it such a cool wallbreaker. Now you might ask, how does M-Medicham do any better against M-Sableye? The answer is Foresight. A set of High Jump Kick, Zen Headbutt, Ice Punch, Foresight lures M-Sableye and easily OHKO's it with HJK. With most stall teams only having M-Sableye as their M-Medicham answer thinking they don't need another one, it does a very great job at breaking the most popular stall teams at the moment.

Foresight is bounced by Magic Bounce. Awhile ago I was thinking it'd be a neat set but then I checked ;_; You can lure it before it's not mega yet, though, but then it can still get prankster wisp off on you.

Besides getting past Unaware Clefable, Medicham doesn't really break anything Gallade can't, and both are hard countered by the face of stall.

 

[Kurona]

Honestly I think if getting past one Pokémon better than Gallade is Medicham's only niche, that really seems to me the definition of something in C or D.

 

[pwnémon]

Care to elaborate on how Talonflame got worse? This nom was strongly disagreed with and for good reason. The meta became more favourable to Talonflame more than anything due to the prevalance of metagross, sceptile, lopunny, gallade and calm mind mega sableye although it is countered by diancie. I also think everybody is overhyping cobalion which in my opinion is outclassed by fast support heatran which does a far better job at checking clefable, lati@s (scout for eq), can deal with talonflame whilst having a much better defensive typing. Although it is a worse check to cobalion and does not have volt switch.

 

[Kurona]

Care to elaborate on how Talonflame got worse? This nom was strongly disagreed with and for good reason. The meta became more favourable to Talonflame more than anything due to the prevalance of metagross, sceptile, lopunny, gallade and calm mind mega sableye although it is countered by diancie. I also think everybody is overhyping cobalion which in my opinion is outclassed by fast support heatran which does a far better job at checking clefable, lati@s (scout for eq), can deal with talonflame whilst having a much better defensive typing. Although it is a worse check to cobalion and does not have volt switch.

Again, this isn't reflecting my opinions at all, it's just a list of changes that were either being discussed or were agreed on from memory. I forgot how much Talonflame was disagreed on; I'll remove it.

 

[The Manifold Curiosity]

I have been giving Serperior a test run and it has been very impressive. The only team support it needs is a heatran killer which is not a tall order and some U-turn/volt switch support so that it can set up on the right opponent. If those 2 conditions are met then I find that it can either sweep an entire team or at least kill a few mons. Looking at the Pokemons that reside in B- and B I can only see it in B+ as a minimum. However the meta-game might adapt to it over the next few weeks so I would be hesitant to put it in B+ for now. I vouch for B rank as a starting point.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-201039711

This replay shows that there are currently some very Serp weak teams on the ladder (my opponent's team was very solidly built and the poor guy did not even know Sept's HA had been released). My opponent forfeited early on, but had he continued to play his only option would have been to sack Tar so that he could revenge kill me with Exadrill. But by then he would have lost half his team and pretty much the match. We need to stop thinking Serp as only a wall-breaker, because if your opponent does not have something that out-speeds it (which is certainly possible with 113 speed) or some form of strong priority (i.e. not aqua jet) then Serp can and will sweep your team. I personally don't see him as outclassed by Mega-Sceptile. While Mega-Sept is faster and has more immediate power Serp can wall-break anything bar Heatran (unless you lure with HP-ground of course) and still carry out the same team cleaning, albeit with less speed . Its flaws have been well documented but I do see Serp as a unique and highly useful Pokemon which is why I think it will settle at B+ minimum eventually.

Edit. I stand by what I said even though people seem to be settling on B-. I am beginning to see that life orb is not needed in order for it to break through walls, which helps its longevity significantly. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202151709

And another replay of Serp sweeping a team. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-202433193

 

[Grim]

Damn essays lol.

True. Even before Greninja was suspected, fairies already saw a spike in usage due to M-Sab. However, now that Gren is suspected, there is an even larger reason for players to slap on fairies because there is close to no drawbacks at all (since poison typing isn't common in OU) which gives Cruel more utility (be it as a partner to M-Sab or as a standalone spinner in Balance). Things that are seeing more usage like Specskou (Raikou in general), Thundurus (Both formes), Zapdos, Specszone are not only because they have utility outside of being birdspam checks, but also because they have the ability to keep MBro at bay. I'm not saying it affects Cruel to a large degree, but there are still side effects that prevents it from becoming even better and if anything, I would blame MBro for this.

Fair enough, I won't deny that Gunk Shot Greninja threatens all Fairies in OU not named Klefki. Yeah Electric weakness is something they share and Electric-types are indeed pretty common, for multiple reasons including Slowbro and birdspam. I think we actually both agree with it moving up though lol. I have no problems waiting till the suspect test is over before deciding on its ranking.

Correct, I should take back the whole "set up in it's face" statement. Considering that M-Lade using SS hinges on the same scenarios as the ones you suggested, I'm sorry for painting a wrong picture. My main point that I was trying to bring across is that you have added options of using SS even outside of playing against M-Sab whereas Foresight M-Cham is pretty specialised. Yes, foresight does indeed give you more options to deal with M-Sab but it's benefits end there (You won't stay in on a Gengar seeing as it's the next relevant Ghost in OU). For M-Lade, SS can be used under almost all scenarios where you force opponent's mons out considering that Inner Focus is not the most optimal ability for M-Lade and for M-Lade, this can easily help it against foes. (i.e, Drill switching in after TTar is sacked will lose it's Sand Rush ability and lose to M-lade (EQ from Drill is a 75% OHKO after rocks). Another example will be Slowbro switching in on any hit other than Knock Off. You SS away his regen so he loses it for the turn and you get to heal up while depriving him of his heals). To sum it up, yes, M-Cham is indeed a good wallbreaker and foresight does help it against M-Sab. But the restrictive nature of foresight doesn't allow M-Cham to gain that much niche to the point where it is on par with Specs Sylveon (You still have the opportunity cost of being a MEvo). Whereas, even though M-Lade became slightly worser due to M-Sab, SS allows you to have a shaky protection against burns (in the M-Sab matchups) while also allowing you to status M-Sab in the process.

Edit: SS M-Lade also has uses outside of temporarily dealing with M-Sab. With Foresight, you lose either the ability to anti-lead, the ability to run sub and dodge statuses against more defensive teams where you would normally shine or you lose a very stable form of priority at the cost of being specialised against M-Sab. Whereas for M-Lade, it can still function normally even if it's running SS + 3 Attacks.

Welp, Sergeant Spooky made this discussion irrelevant lol. Bummer. I agree it is not on par with Specs Sylveon, but that's only because I think Sylveon should move up. I don't know to which rank, but it's really good at the moment.

Serperior seems to fit in B. It's a great pokemon that does well against both stall and offense, and is deceptively powerful. It just needs some support to remove Heatran (not even if hp ground, which works well with magnezone to remove the things hp fire would hit), and some checks to flying spam which all teams should have anyway. I also definitely agree with dropping Thundurus and Latios to A+, because they simply are not that impressive to me anymore. Thundurus often just uses Thunder Wave and dies, and although that Thunder Wave is nice it's just not that impressive. Latios is affected really badly by Metagross and SpD Jirachi being more common. M-Gallade to A is also something I agree with, because it simply does not break stall with M-Sableye, Unaware Clefable, and the occassional M-Slowbro running rampage, while only being average against offense (not bad, not good).

 

[Steel With It]

Bring back up vanilla Gardevoir for D-Rank. Like I said before, it's a passable Scarfer that's able to revenge Weather Sweepers, give a fast Destiny Bond as a "screw you" or Healing Wish for Offense, and can sometimes (key word here is sometimes) clean lategame with Fairy STAB. It definitely has issues like having to rely on Scarfed Focus Blast for some kills, having difficulty switching into some stuff (okay, a lot), and the obvious opportunity cost, but it's not totally unviable.

Agreed, Scarfdevoir is underrated and deserves a ranking, but one thing I'd like to add: I personally prefer using Trick over Focus Blast to give it more usefulness against stall teams, which are growing in popularity thanks to Mega Sableye. The lesser coverage is made up for by the greater utility, and Scarfdevoir is better used as a speedy supporter that can also revenge than as a pure revenger anyway.

 

[Grim]

Agreed, Scarfdevoir is underrated and deserves a ranking, but one thing I'd like to add: I personally prefer using Trick over Focus Blast to give it more usefulness against stall teams, which are growing in popularity thanks to Mega Sableye. The lesser coverage is made up for by the greater utility, and Scarfdevoir is better used as a speedy supporter that can also revenge than as a pure revenger anyway.

Getting walled by Steel-types is very bad in OU, the Steel tier, so you need Focus Blast. Trick is an option in the last moveslot though together with Healing Wish or Destiny Bond.

 

[Halcyon.]

Alright I'll say it, I don't like where S rank is or where it's heading. I know this sounds bad, but I hate when people refer to the definition of a rank when trying to say it should be that rank. This mostly stems from the definitions of the rankings being complete bull. What makes an S rank Pokemon? Well in my opinion they're the best Pokemon in the tier. But what makes something the best? Well I see it more from a teambuilding perspective than anything else. Pokemon that influence the decisions that I have to make when building a team and have more natural "pull" on the metagame are what makes S ranks. I couldn't care less if they can sweep a majority of the meta if I never have to think about it. Hydreigon can break all my balance teams. Does that make it S? No because it's not common and not splashable (meaning it can't be used on just any team). It's not a relevant enough mon to be S rank. Same goes for Thundurus. There are very few times when I think "man I am just so weak to Thundurus and I need a specific check to it." And that's because on its own it isn't a super influential Pokemon. So yes, it's not something that should be S rank and I agree with its dropping. But Latios? Now that is one of the absolute first things I have checked whenever I build a team. It's powerful, it's fast, and most of all, it's fucking everywhere. Every team ACTIVELY needs a Latios check, possibly two or more. Every team ACTIVELY needs a Landorus-T check. But does every team ACTIVELY need a Mega Lopunny check? Honestly it sort of just comes with checking other physical attackers...that's not very S rank to me. I mean, if I'm weak to Ground types and I throw a Landorus-T on my team, I've just checked Mega Lopunny without even trying. Same thing happens with Slowbro or Gliscor or Mew. Any of these Pokemon can be put on my team to check (imo) much more prevelant threats, but also naturally do well against Lopunny. So honestly I don't usually give it a second thought. It certainly isn't near Latios on my "things I need answers for" list. And this is all excluding the fact that it's a Mega. Mega Pokemon by definition are never splashable. Mega Pokemon, in my opinion, have to be like "oh my god crazy insanely influential" in order to be S rank, ala XY Xard. Mega Sableye fits this to a T, that thing is incredibly influential, it just blows back teams that are unprepared for it. Lopunny might do work against certain teams, but ask yourself this: are those teams really weak to Lopunny? Or are they just weak to fast physical attackers? Could a Mega Gallade or a Scarf Lando-T or a Banded Terrakion do the same thing? I think in most cases you'll find the answer is yes. And that is why I don't think Lopunny is S rank. Of course I'm pulling all of this out of my ass because this isn't following the definition given to us in the OP, so it really doesn't matter what I think. But if you think about what the thread really is and what it's meant to do (be a guide for newer users to show them not only a threatlist but a threatlist that lists things in order of their necessity to prepare for in team building), I think you'll agree that the way I look at S rank isn't too absurd.

Anyway long story short if I had my way, S rank would be:

Clefable
Greninja
Landorus-T
Latios
Mega Sableye

These are by far the most influential Pokemon in my opinion, and nothing else even comes close (well if Greninja is banned, Keldeo could take its spot but I'm not 100% on that).

 

[Kurona]

WHY DO YOU MAKE US WAIT?!?!?

Also, I suggest pinning this to the top of the page, cause that's what we do, yo. Fo shiz yo miz.

Anyway.

Bring back up vanilla Gardevoir for D-Rank. Like I said before, it's a passable Scarfer that's able to revenge Weather Sweepers, give a fast Destiny Bond as a "screw you" or Healing Wish for Offense, and can sometimes (key word here is sometimes) clean lategame with Fairy STAB. It definitely has issues like having to rely on Scarfed Focus Blast for some kills, having difficulty switching into some stuff (okay, a lot), and the obvious opportunity cost, but it's not totally unviable.

Also rip alexwolf ;-;

Something else I'd like to add is that Scarf Gardevoir also has a myriad other support options that almost gives it lopunny-level utility and unpredictability; Trick is obvious, but then it also gets Will-O-Wisp which is bad to get locked into, but could really save you against a physical attacker. It also has Memento, which iirc the only other good scarfer that has that is Latios, which can really turn games on their head and give you a good set-up opportunity.

 

[Kurona]

But if you think about what the thread really is and what it's meant to do (be a guide for newer users to show them not only a threatlist but a threatlist that lists things in order of their necessity to prepare for in team building)

... hang on, what? That's what this thread is? From just about... everything, I gathered that it was to show newer players the first things to consider to use when teambuilding, not what to prepare for. There's other threads for threatlists and even the usage stats; when was the viability rankings thread ever for showing what to prepare for rather than what to use?

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

... hang on, what? That's what this thread is? From just about... everything, I gathered that it was to show newer players the first things to consider to use when teambuilding, not what to prepare for. There's other threads for threatlists and even the usage stats; when was the viability rankings thread ever for showing what to prepare for rather than what to use?

Would not the biggest threatening pokemon be pokemon people would want to use?

 

[Kurona]

Would not the biggest threatening pokemon be pokemon people would want to use?

To a degree, yes, but the Pokémon that are the best fit for your team and the Pokémon that are the most threatening in the tier will not always be the same thing.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

First page? Sweet! Time to post my reasoning for a few noms. Before anyone calls me crazy, I dont think MSab deserves S rank right now.
See, Stall is amazing. Hell, I can go and say its probably the best playstyle rn. MSableye is a staple on stall and deserves that. Sadly, I just dont think this guy lives to its fullest compatibility rn. Every team runs some sort of counter/check to MSab, and Dark types shit on it in general. Examples are:

MGyara
Unaware Clefable
Mlopunny
MDiancie
Mega Gardevoir
MAltaria (obviously cant switch into WoW)
MAbsol (Cant do much to it even with its frail defenses)
Azu (again, cant switch into WoW)

There is more, but thats probably a decent amount to help the case. Lets also mention MSab's horrible Speed stat, and while that doesnt matter for Stall, it does for Recover and WoW. He has nothing to increase his speed stat at all. Losing Prankster wasnt the best either, cause now with its shit speed it cant have prio. Magic Bounce, however, is a great ability to be noted. See, I honestly think this guy doesnt have the best fitting into the meta rn, and A+ rank is not a horrible rank at all. Shit like MZard X, MZard Y, MAltaria, MLop (well for now), Mega Gallade and Gardevoir, TFlame, MScizor, and Bisharp dwell there so its really not a bad spot imo. When the meta shifts from Fairy types and HO kind of stuff, this guy is going to S rank in that case.