Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[ssjjynx]

I always forget about stealth rocks. Then again, when I've used heat Rotom, it was a lead choiced variant to trick a scarf onto opponents that want to SR.

Unfortunately, a large amount of sr setters are pokemon the rotom-h wouldn't want to stay in on, such as tyranitar. The few that would stay in, like ferrothorn, would switch out the moment they see a fire type. The only advantage rotom-h has over rotom-w is that it pressures ferrothorn instead of being checked by it. Other than that, it doesn't bring anything new to the table that can be seen in a positive light.

 

[Baharoth]

Raikou and Torn-T still aren't even checks to MGarde because Tbolt and Hurricane don't 2HKO and that's considering that Torn-T even manages to hit two hurricanes in a row. Raikou can't check Lando-I either because any move + earth power will KO it, while HP Ice doesn't OHKO from full. Raikou is still not a check to Starmie because Ice beam does 28% - 33% with analytic followed by psyshock which is 56% - 67%. So on average Ice Beam + Psyshock is doing 30.5% + 61.5% which is 92%, aka Raikou dies after SR. However, that's assuming starmie wins the speed tie, so either raikou has to switch in on rapid spin to win or rely on a 50/50. Pretty shaky if you ask me. Even if Raikou checks keldeo, that's still only gengar, serperior, keldeo, and the lati twins which they both check. Wouldn't call that a lot.

252 SpA Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 292-344 (91.5 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

Ok once again, a check doesnt have to be able to switch into any move to be a check. Raikou outspeeds Lando-I and ohkoes after SR or any sort of prior damage and even if it doesn't ohko Lando is basicly out of the game as even LO damage from HP ice will kill him. Raikou will also always win 1on1 against offensive Starmie even if he loses the speed tie. I'll give you Garde as Tornadus cant realy 2hko, he can just pivot in and back out for chip damage while Raikou needs SR to 2hko with Shadowball but still. And realy, you cant go and assume SR on the field for every calc against Raikou while ignoring it when talking about Lando-I and Garde. If your using SR as an argument at least be consequent with it.

Gengar, Keldeo, Latis, Starmie, Lando-I that are pokemon you see on like every second team in the high ladder and for good reason so while not a lot (btw i never said anything about "a lot" i just said that they share a bunch of key targets) its still a very significant group of mons.

 

[Sochlo]

Ok once again, a check doesnt have to be able to switch into any move to be a check.

I know this is thrown around a lot, but honestly I think it's bullshit. If it can't even switch in on a single move how the hell does it check a Pokemon? Unless double switching it means you'd have to sack something just to get your "check" in, which means said Pokemon has already done its job and your "check" has not hindered it in any way because now it can just switch out of your "check" while getting away with murder. I'm not gonna recommend Raikou the next time someone asks me for a Garchomp check just because HP Ice KOes and it outspeeds, because that's stupid. It's pretty much the whole reason Greninja was banned. That goes double for the guy suggesting that Raikou and Torn are "checks" to Mega Gardevoir, if it can't switch in and can't even KO back (Hyper Voice does more to Raikou than what Specs Shadow Ball does to Garde, to emphasize) then it's not a check, shit it's barely revenge killing.

 

[Baharoth]

I know this is thrown around a lot, but honestly I think it's bullshit. If it can't even switch in on a single move how the hell does it check a Pokemon? Unless double switching it means you'd have to sack something just to get your "check" in, which means said Pokemon has already done its job and your "check" has not hindered it in any way because now it can just switch out of your "check" while getting away with murder. I'm not gonna recommend Raikou the next time someone asks me for a Garchomp check just because HP Ice KOes and it outspeeds, because that's stupid. It's pretty much the whole reason Greninja was banned. That goes double for the guy suggesting that Raikou and Torn are "checks" to Mega Gardevoir, if it can't switch in and can't even KO back (Hyper Voice does more to Raikou than what Specs Shadow Ball does to Garde, to emphasize) then it's not a check, shit it's barely revenge killing.

I agree with you there but these definitions are Smogons bullshit not mine so your telling that to the wrong guy.

Here is the check definition from the "Pokemonterminology Database" Thread: Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. In some scenarios if a Pokemon can switch into the opposing Pokemon's move and proceed to OHKO it then it is also a check.

Guess if we follow the definition to the letter then Raikou isn't a check to Lando-I and Garde because he needs SR on the field to check them which goes against the "even in the worst case scenario" part. I had something about "under usual battle conditions" in mind which would include SR but anyway. Switching into the other mons moves is what defines a counter and not the checks. Talonflame cant switch into Keldeo, Gallade, Medicham or Pinsir either so going by your standards he isnt a check to either of them.

 

[Yugi]

KG i know i did my explanation bad but thats because im new here and i would like criticism,so i could learn more so thank you.

 

[Kyuzeth]

I agree with you there but I havent made these definitions so your telling that to the wrong guy.

Here is the check definition from the "Pokemonterminology Database" Thread: Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. In some scenarios if a Pokemon can switch into the opposing Pokemon's move and proceed to OHKO it then it is also a check.

Guess if we're 100% accurate Raikou isn't a check to Lando-I and Garde because he needs SR on the field to check them which goes against the "even in the worst case scenario" part. In any case, switching into the other mons moves is what defines a counter and not the checks. Talonflame cant switch into Keldeo, Gallade, Medicham or Pinsir either so going by your standards he isnt a check to either of them.

Exactly. Raikou cannot switch in and OHKO many of the Pokémon listed, so it is simply not a check to them. In fact, AV Raikou fails to check many of the Pokémon it aims to deal with since they have ways around the beast, be it striking its middling Defense stat (Landorus-I's Knock Off, Keldeo's Secret Sword and the Eons' Psyshock). Following the criteria, Raikou cannot win every time and is sometimes rather hard-pressed to beat some of these Pokémon, no matter which set it runs. Each set fixes some of Raikou's problems, but the issue is that they can't cover everything at once and all have some glaring detriments (which have all been pointed out by Albacore in great detail). That's one reason why it should stay where it is and not move up.

Taking a gander at the definition of a check, you appear to be ignoring the second portion of the definition you've posted: switch into an opponent's move and OHKO. Among the Pokémon you've listed, Talonflame is pretty safe against at least Medicham and Gallade; though it risks taking a hard hit and fainting from Brave Bird's recoil, it does manage to defeat both of them with Brave Bird. Additionally, the Pokémon has to fulfill either criterion, not necessarily both; see keyword also in the las sentence of the definition. It either has to get a free switch and swoop in for the kill or be capable of switching in and scoring an OHKO. Talonflame is pretty much a guaranteed check to those four Pokémon if it comes in on a free switch, while the same does not always apply to Raikou. AV fails to OHKO or even 2HKO a good portion of the Pokémon it is meant to check, so it is not a guaranteed check, stress on guaranteed - it CAN check the Pokémon, just not in every occasion. It's not the safest check out there.

In your comparison to Mega Manectric from a previous post, you make its 135 Speed stat out to be nothing of significance, since 115 gives Raikou enough Speed to check what it needs to check. While your statement about Raikou is true, Mega Manectric's significantly higher Speed tier gives it a far wider range of things it can deal with compared to Raikou. Not just checking; Intimidate is one of Mega Manectric's tools to success, as this Ability gives it amazing utility in conjunction with Volt Switch, as it outpaces Pokémon like Scarf T-Tar and leaves them at -1, meaning the crippled Pokémon is either forced to switch if it can't hit hard enough or stay in and turn into set-up bait for another attacker on Mega Manectric's team. Its coverage is another major advantage it has over Raikou: Flamethrower and Overheat (pick your poison) let it scorch Steel-types, some of which can't do much back or fail to KO the thunderdog. Flamethrower is safer and more consistent, but Overheat has a decent chance to OHKO Mega Metagross. In return, the iron titan can't OHKO back and is left with -1 Attack, meaning Mega Manectric can just Volt Switch the fuck outta there if it fails to KO and generate even more momentum for its team. I've noticed you failed to mention Mega Metagross among things that Mega Manectric beats; Ferrothorn and (Mega) Scizor are obvious, but you either didn't know it could blast Mega Metagross or you conveniently left it out. Either way, the fact that Mega Manectric can cripple or even clean the de facto ruler of OU is pretty big, as I see it.

Lastly, the Mega slot argument. I've stated this before in this subforum or the previous edition, but a Mega Evolution is chosen for the role it is meant to fulfill. Mega Manectric is a fast, momentum-generating scout with great cleaning potential thanks to its great coverage. If your team needs a Pokémon with those attributes, then Mega Manectric is a great option in teambuilding. Yes, there are other Mega Evolutions around that have more qualities, but those usually perform vastly different roles and are chosen for their reasons. That is the centerpoint regarding Mega Evolution in teambuilding.

I'm done here. I've talked more than enough about these two Pokémon over all OU viability threads, so I'm leaving it at this post.

 

[NotSoClutch]

firehusky, I have some respect for you as a player and it was directed at pretty much everyone's arguments. Opportunity cost arguments are a lot like the 4MSS arguments we talked about a few pages back, you shouldn't base your whole argument around them but they are notable enough to warrant a drop/stay. And your argument wasn't all opportunity cost, believe me, I know, but a lot of the basis for some peoples post was petty things and how Raikou doesn't use a mega slot. Yes, Raikou hits hard with Specs, gets locked in, yes Raikou can tank hits with AV, over Mane, but it hits piss weakly. LO reduces longevity but makes it stronger, it gets CM but it loses coverage and/or can't VSwitch out. Honestly Albacore summed it up excellently.



Edit @ Above: I was mentioning how it can switch into Solar Beam and it loses 1v1 then, I should have elaborated more, that is honestly my fault.

Sorry, was just talking to my friends about Charizard not too long ago and they kept saying that Hippo could counter both forms. Sorry if I came off a bit strong. Wasn't directed at you as much as the people that say Hippo is the Charizard counter.

I also agree that Raikou often is a bit too underwhelming to be in A. It's role is pretty narrow on most teams as it does want specs in many matchups and AV in others regardless of your personal team comp.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

I really can't see Raikou in A, same rank than Manectric. Manectric has the ability to revenge kill huge threats such as Talonflame and Tornadus-T, which Raikou miss out on, and Intimidate makes it, ultimately, the better pivot.

edit: fuck i messed up sorry

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I really can't see Raikou in A, a rank higher than Manectric. Manectric has the ability to revenge kill huge threats such as Talonflame and Tornadus-T, which Raikou miss out on, and Intimidate makes it, ultimately, the better pivot.

While I agree that Manectric is the superior pivot, Raikou has one thing that Manectric will be never able to successfully run; Raikou is able to run a rather effective Sub/Cm set, effectively stall breaking as long as Chansey has been removed. Its good speed tier allows it to outspeed even Thundurus. It is able to set up a sub on a potential status effect or switch, and proceed to get off a boost. This is the primary reason why Raikou would move up, while still carrying the versatility of running bulky Assault Vest or even Choice Specs pivot, which hits harder than Manectric at the cost of locking it into a move.
All in all the fact that Manectric exists should not be enough to hold Raikou out of A. Also, the obvious benefit between to two is that Manectric uses the Mega slot, while Raikou does not.

 

[firehusky]

I really can't see Raikou in A, a rank higher than Manectric. Manectric has the ability to revenge kill huge threats such as Talonflame and Tornadus-T, which Raikou miss out on, and Intimidate makes it, ultimately, the better pivot.

?
Manectric is A. Manectric might be a better pivot on the physical side, but raikou has the ability to take on pokemon such as gengar with an assault vest equipped.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

?
Manectric is A. Manectric might be a better pivot on the physical side, but raikou has the ability to take on pokemon such as gengar with an assault vest equipped.

Yeah I know that, which is why I'm saying Manectric and Raikou should be on the same rank.

shit sorry i messed up, disregard my post. i thought mane+raik were on same rank e.e sorry

 

[Baharoth]

Exactly. Raikou cannot switch in and OHKO many of the Pokémon listed, so it is simply not a check to them.

Additionally, the Pokémon has to fulfill either criterion, not necessarily both; see keyword also in the las sentence of the definition.

Good job contradicting yourself. Raikou fullfills the first criterion so it is a check even if it doesn't fullfill the latter. Factoring in SR it even checks Garde and Landorus going by the first definition (and Lando even going by the second as Raikou can tank anything but Earthpower with ease)

Your also ignoring the context of my Talonflame example which was adressed to this guy:

I know this is thrown around a lot, but honestly I think it's bullshit. If it can't even switch in on a single move how the hell does it check a Pokemon? Unless double switching it means you'd have to sack something just to get your "check" in, which means said Pokemon has already done its job and your "check" has not hindered it in any way because now it can just switch out of your "check" while getting away with murder. I'm not gonna recommend Raikou the next time someone asks me for a Garchomp check just because HP Ice KOes and it outspeeds, because that's stupid. It's pretty much the whole reason Greninja was banned. That goes double for the guy suggesting that Raikou and Torn are "checks" to Mega Gardevoir, if it can't switch in and can't even KO back (Hyper Voice does more to Raikou than what Specs Shadow Ball does to Garde, to emphasize) then it's not a check, shit it's barely revenge killing.

Talonflame risks the ohko against Medicham, Keldeo and Pinsir even without rocks so it cant switch in and wouln't be a check to them following his logic.

In your comparison to Mega Manectric from a previous post, you make its 135 Speed stat out to be nothing of significance, since 115 gives Raikou enough Speed to check what it needs to check. While your statement about Raikou is true, Mega Manectric's significantly higher Speed tier gives it a far wider range of things it can deal with compared to Raikou. Not just checking; Intimidate is one of Mega Manectric's tools to success, as this Ability gives it amazing utility in conjunction with Volt Switch, as it outpaces Pokémon like Scarf T-Tar and leaves them at -1, meaning the crippled Pokémon is either forced to switch if it can't hit hard enough or stay in and turn into set-up bait for another attacker on Mega Manectric's team. Its coverage is another major advantage it has over Raikou: Flamethrower and Overheat (pick your poison) let it scorch Steel-types, some of which can't do much back or fail to KO the thunderdog. Flamethrower is safer and more consistent, but Overheat has a decent chance to OHKO Mega Metagross. In return, the iron titan can't OHKO back and is left with -1 Attack, meaning Mega Manectric can just Volt Switch the fuck outta there if it fails to KO and generate even more momentum for its team. I've noticed you failed to mention Mega Metagross among things that Mega Manectric beats; Ferrothorn and (Mega) Scizor are obvious, but you either didn't know it could blast Mega Metagross or you conveniently left it out. Either way, the fact that Mega Manectric can cripple or even clean the de facto ruler of OU is pretty big, as I see it.

What does Manetric outspeed that Raikou does not? Starmie, Tornadus, Hawlucha, Talonflame, Scarf ttar and modest scarfed Heatran. Out of these Raikou beats Starmie and Tornadus anyway and Hawlucha will outspeed both most of the time due to unburden. Manetric cant touch scarf ttar and loses to scarf heatran so its basicly just Talonflame where the speed gap realy matters. Add the tie with Lopunny if you want to. Sure Talon is an important thing to outspeed but that speed difference isnt as big as it might apear on first sight. Fire coverage doesnt hit anything relevant aside from Ferro and Scizor. In return Raikou has Shadow Ball for very good neutral coverage and also to hit all the psychics in the tier. Which gets us to Metagross:

252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 186-220 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 148-176 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

Thats hardly even an advantage seeing that both of them 2hko most of time (always after SR).You could go for overheat but that leaves you wide open afterwards with that nasty -2 drop and isnt even a save ohko.

And against Latios for example it looks like this:

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 124-148 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-176 (49.4 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Firecoverage certainly has its merits but your ignoring the extra coverage Raikou has in Shadow Ball or Extrasensory

 

[firehusky]

Talonflame risks the ohko against Medicham, Keldeo and Pinsir even without rocks so it cant switch in and wouln't be a check to them following his logic.

Yes it would. Talonflame can switch in on hjk from medicham without rocks up, secret sword from keldeo, and close combat / earthquake / quick attack from mega pinsir so yes it can check them. His logic is that because raikou can't switch in on a single move it's not a check, only a revenge killer. Talonflame is a check to the above pokemon because it can actually safely switch in on one of their attacks.

 

[bludz]

While I agree that Manectric is the superior pivot, Raikou has one thing that Manectric will be never able to successfully run; Raikou is able to run a rather effective Sub/Cm set, effectively stall breaking as long as Chansey has been removed. Its good speed tier allows it to outspeed even Thundurus. It is able to set up a sub on a potential status effect or switch, and proceed to get off a boost. This is the primary reason why Raikou would move up, while still carrying the versatility of running bulky Assault Vest or even Choice Specs pivot, which hits harder than Manectric at the cost of locking it into a move.
All in all the fact that Manectric exists should not be enough to hold Raikou out of A. Also, the obvious benefit between to two is that Manectric uses the Mega slot, while Raikou does not.

Stall not only carries Chansey, but usually an Unaware user as well. Quagsire takes on the SubCM set without any problems at all. Quagsire and Chansey are the biggest stops to Mega Manectric on stall as well. While SubCM Raikou could beat stuff like Cresselia after a few CMs, it loses the ability to Volt Switch with this set which can actually be a pretty big deal for momentum / wearing down opposing teams (including stall!). The SubCM set really isn't that good against stall, it's against bulky balance builds where it shines. However Manectric's superior coverage with fire type moves makes it also fairly effective versus balance; it can actually take out Ferrothorn and is a WAY better check to Mega Scizor, while it really only struggles with Hippowdon which is a hard stop to SubCM Raikou as well provided it hasn't set up a fair amount already.

It's also important to note that Raikou's best set is definitely Choice Specs, it probably would not be in A- rank without this set. I don't really see either the AV or the SubCM set as strong enough to push it up. I'm not going to outline all the pros and cons of Mane vs Raikou because many of them have been stated already. I'll just sum it up with their matchups against respective playstyles. Neither is that good against stall unless it's been weakened significantly. Manectric is definitely superior against offense. Manectric is also probably better against most balance, except for Raikou's SubCM set which is significantly worse against offense. If you look at Raikou vs the other A ranks (not even including Mega Manectric), it really just doesn't belong IMO.

Edit: Baharoth I feel like you're missing out on several key pokemon that Manectric outspeeds which Raikou does not. Alakazam and Weavile are both huge threats to opposing offensive teams which Raikou does not reliably check at all. There are others if you want to get more specific like Hawlucha before Unburden, certain variants of +1 Gyarados and Aerodactyl before Mega Evolving. Also outspeeding Tornadus-T is pretty nice since you don't want to switch into a Knock Off just to be U-turned out of, while Manectric has no item to be Knocked Off and Intimidate lowers the power of that as well. And potentially checking Mega Lopunny is a HUGE deal for offense.

 

[pika pal]

What does Manetric outspeed that Raikou does not? Starmie, Tornadus, Hawlucha, Talonflame, Scarf ttar and modest scarfed Heatran. Out of these Raikou beats Starmie and Tornadus anyway and Hawlucha will outspeed both most of the time due to unburden. Manetric cant touch scarf ttar and loses to scarf heatran so its basicly just Talonflame where the speed gap realy matters. Add the tie with Lopunny if you want to. Sure Talon is an important thing to outspeed but that speed difference isnt as big as it might apear on first sight. Fire coverage doesnt hit anything relevant aside from Ferro and Scizor. In return Raikou has Shadow Ball for very good neutral coverage and also to hit all the psychics in the tier. Which gets us to Metagross:

252 SpA Mega Manectric Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 186-220 (61.7 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 148-176 (49.1 - 58.4%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

That's hardly even an advantage seeing that both of them 2hko most of time (always after SR).You could go for overheat but that leaves you wide open afterwards with that nasty -2 drop and isnt even a save ohko.

And against Latios for example it looks like this:

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 124-148 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 148-176 (49.4 - 58.8%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Fire coverage certainly has its merits but your ignoring the extra coverage Raikou has in Shadow Ball or Extrasensory

On the fire coverage, I'm pretty sure Manectric prefers Overheat, since he's playing Pivot and won't be in long enough for the SpA drop to hinder him too much. Even then, having the option makes this just as if not more relevant
252 SpA Mega Manectric Overheat vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Metagross: 270-318 (89.7 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Seems more an advantage now. Also, less common, but I have seen some EQ Metagross variants
-1 252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 192-226 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 302-356 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

There's another advantage for you.

Manectric outspeeding a lot of those mons is the most benefit he's going to need. Manectric's job is to weaken opponents and Pivot out with Volt Switch. A -1 ScarfTar is pretty exploitable, and if he outspeeds these mons, he switches out to an appropriate teammate anyway. Starmie does a number on Raikou in a lost Speed Tie
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 181-214 (56.3 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 32 SpD Assault Vest Raikou: 126-149 (39.2 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
56+39 = 95% minimum, without accounting for any Analytic switch boost on a mispredicted action.

Tornadus-T is carrying U-Turn most sets, so by outspeeding Raikou, he knows he's not the one getting hit, meaning Raikou doesn't necessarily beat him either. Manectric fares better since both check the opponent, but Manectric keeps momentum because Tornadus actually takes sizeable damage if he wants the slower Voltturn
252 SpA Mega Manectric Volt Switch vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 170-204 (51.2 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tornadus-T: 288-338 (96.3 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Whereas, by outspeeding Raikou, Tornadus-T turns out, Regenerates, and brings in a Raikou check, possibly stopping Raikou from abusing the slower Volt Switch.


Of the Psychic types in the A-Ranks: Metagross, Lati@s, Celebi, Gardevoir, Slowbro, Starmie, Alakazam, Jirachi, Mew, Gallade.

Of these, the ones Raikou hits SE that Manectric doesn't: Gardevoir, Alakazam (Outspeeds both, KOs depending on Psychic vs Psyshock), Mew, Gallade.

232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 198-234 (61.6 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 226-267 (68.6 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 124-148 (44.7 - 53.4%) -- 32% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 186-220 (67.1 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Raikou takes any hit entering (not just Psyshock, ANY hit) or comes with any particular prior damage, he loses. Neither handles her particularly well

Alakazam is in Raikou's favor, but still a shaky match-up
252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 168-198 (64.8 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Manectric hits about as hard WITHOUT SE coverage. There's an undeniable power difference inherent to the two mons.

252 SpA Raikou Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gallade: 142-168 (51.2 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gallade: 135-159 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Manectric: 189-223 (67.2 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raikou: 298-352 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

Both outspeed Gallade, but Manectric can survive the retaliatory strike to actually beat Gallade with a second T-bolt. Raikou often goes down after barely getting half off with Shadow Ball.


So of OU's Psychics, Raikou only handles Mega Alakazam noticeably better, so Shadow Ball isn't that big an advantage over Manectric's coverage.

You're also underselling the importance of checking Talonflame, considering Manectric is most effective as a Pivot for offensively oriented teams, teams that REALLY hate Talonflame's Priority Brave Bird. While never breaking the S-Rank line, Talonflame has been nominated multiple times for a reason.

252 SpA Mega Manectric Volt Switch vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 320-378 (97.8 - 115.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Talonflame needs a SD boost to beat either w/ Flare Blitz, but unlike Manectric, SD Talonflame can afford to creep Raikou if it proves that much a problem. Assuming either enters on the SD.

Raikou: KO'd by Flare Blitz, Talonflame can potentially sweep with +2 Brave Bird
Manectric: Outspeed, Volt Switch KO's Talonflame (even the 20% of the time it lives, recoil finishes it). Talonflame leaves, Manectric stopped his sweep and got momentum. Talonflame stayed, opponent is out their Smog Bird.

Just because Raikou can KO the same targets, or that Manectric does not directly OHKO the things he outspeeds over Raikou, does not mean Manectric does not handle them significantly better.

The other thing to consider is limitation. Raikou can check a lot of Pokemon, but he's never going to be able to handle them all. Things he can handily check with the Specs set will murder him outright with the AV set, for example. Manectric only has the one set, but with that one set, I find he covers almost everything Raikou covers with combinations of his sets. So having Manectric on your team covers more than having a Raikou.

Truthfully, I always saw Raikou as one of those Pokemon that only just broke the B+/A- barrier, and I don't see him going to A unless some big shift happens that proves favorable to him and/or REALLY infavorable to Manectric. Keep Raikou in A-

 

[dadoux]

Nominating Alakazam to go up from C-rank to at least X rank.

Alakazam is actually amazing right now, the sash/LO set from bw (stab/focus blast/shadow ball/filler like hp ice or fire) is really good and the fact that zam is faster than ScarfTtar means he is great against Balanced, spikes+zam is as good as it is in BW.
I'll probably get a "Why would you play Alazakam when you can play the mega version?" and i'll answer simply that a lot of teams will rather have Zam+a mega-slot than having Zam being the slot itself since it is so damn restrictive. M-Zam is an absolutely viable mega i'm not denying that, being faster than Manectric/Lopunny/some mons at +1 speed is great, but Zam is viable too in some configuration where you'll need a mega to go with it. We can note that LO Zam does pretty much as much damage than Mega-Zam, so the power difference is far from being significant. Sash Zam is a cool revenge killer in heavy offense while still being a respected threat even though the lack of LO makes you feel a big lack of damage.

I don't know about the rank so i'm going to let it be discussed, but C-rank is clearly bad for such a good mon.

 

[Kutscher]

I think forretress should be ranked, because of the custap berry set, it has to compete with skarmory, but he also have some good points:

The sets:

Skarmory @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes
- Brave Bird / Iron Head / Taunt
- Brave Bird / Iron Head / Taunt

Forretress @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Hp / 252 Atk / 4 Sp.Def
Brave Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spikes / Toxic Spikes
- Explosion / Gyro Ball / Rapid spin
- Explosion /Gyro Ball / Rapid spin

The sets to the same thing, but Explosion > BB, Gyro Ball > Iron Head, and Taunt > Rapid Spin. If Running Explosion Forretress can also act like a lure and take things like Mega Char-X/Y and other frail Sweepers, also can take some Hazzard Removers. Just like Custap Skar, Forretress fit well on Hyper offense and Balanced Teams.(Forretress never should be on the same rank, cause skarmory can run other Sets).

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

Forretress got rejected for a rank last time it was brought up for getting ranked. Also you posted the same thing three times and well forretress shouldn't be ranked because it's outclassed by so much.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Stall not only carries Chansey, but usually an Unaware user as well. Quagsire takes on the SubCM set without any problems at all. Quagsire and Chansey are the biggest stops to Mega Manectric on stall as well. While SubCM Raikou could beat stuff like Cresselia after a few CMs, it loses the ability to Volt Switch with this set which can actually be a pretty big deal for momentum / wearing down opposing teams (including stall!). The SubCM set really isn't that good against stall, it's against bulky balance builds where it shines. However Manectric's superior coverage with fire type moves makes it also fairly effective versus balance; it can actually take out Ferrothorn and is a WAY better check to Mega Scizor, while it really only struggles with Hippowdon which is a hard stop to SubCM Raikou as well provided it hasn't set up a fair amount already.

It's also important to note that Raikou's best set is definitely Choice Specs, it probably would not be in A- rank without this set. I don't really see either the AV or the SubCM set as strong enough to push it up. I'm not going to outline all the pros and cons of Mane vs Raikou because many of them have been stated already. I'll just sum it up with their matchups against respective playstyles. Neither is that good against stall unless it's been weakened significantly. Manectric is definitely superior against offense. Manectric is also probably better against most balance, except for Raikou's SubCM set which is significantly worse against offense. If you look at Raikou vs the other A ranks (not even including Mega Manectric), it really just doesn't belong IMO.

Edit: Baharoth I feel like you're missing out on several key pokemon that Manectric outspeeds which Raikou does not. Alakazam and Weavile are both huge threats to opposing offensive teams which Raikou does not reliably check at all. There are others if you want to get more specific like Hawlucha before Unburden, certain variants of +1 Gyarados and Aerodactyl before Mega Evolving. Also outspeeding Tornadus-T is pretty nice since you don't want to switch into a Knock Off just to be U-turned out of, while Manectric has no item to be Knocked Off and Intimidate lowers the power of that as well. And potentially checking Mega Lopunny is a HUGE deal for offense.

True. I am just a bit biased to Sub/Cm because it can usually catch teams off guard and get off a free sub or Calm Mind. And yeah, I do not need to see the discussion of Manectric v. Raikou, as it is one that has been time and time again. Thanks for the insight, it is always beneficial to get more info into a matter. As for myself I usually use Raikou to replace Manectric when I already have a Mega.

 

[Kutscher]

I read the discussion about and i don't understand why it wasn't ranked, a lot of people agree with the idea.

Forretress got rejected for a rank last time it was brought up for getting ranked. Also you posted the same thing three times and well forretress shouldn't be ranked because it's outclassed by so much.

he

 

[North Gate]

It's because Forretresse is the definition of set up bait, even with Explosion it is pitifully weak and just because it can spin hazards away and set three different ones doesn't mean it's good. If you want to set two hazards it has 4MSS with Volt Switch being wanted or Explosion, also Rapid Spin. It also has shit offensive presence and has meh defenses, while normally a physical wall it still dies to stuff and is just set up bait super easy. You can sit in front of it and while it sets hazards just dance your ass away in front of it. Explosion is still weak as fuck, so don't even say how it can deter set up with it, it sacrifices it too, which isn't good.

 

[AM]

If something didn't get ranked last slate or a slate before that doesn't mean it's barred from being ranked forever. Same deal with something that stayed in a certain rank. Meta always changes, arguments always change, so stuff will more or less be up for debate. I wouldn't go on a campaign using this kind of logic to respond to someone when it isn't true.

 

[NinetyNineNo]

Does that mean that there's a point to keep nominating Garchomp for A+?

 

[AM]

Does that mean that there's a point to keep nominating Garchomp for A+?

Look at the last couple of so pages and see for yourself lol. Like the whole thing with Garchomp was people were riding the hell out of its popularity and put a lot of fluff for a period where it just started to gain some relevance, in regards to its tank set. When stuff rides the bandwagon early on yeah we're gonna be very skeptical of just rising it due to everyone going crazy over it.

Also you guys need to realize that behind the scenes we're debating about stuff all the time. It doesn't just stop or go solely off of the topic of discussion alone which I think is a concept that flies over peoples heads when we change a rank of something. That's just my piece on the matter.

 

[Mr. Hothead]

TBH you guys are underrating forretress. It isnt even that similar to Skarm. They have same abilities and similar movesets, but you must remember he's a support mon and lots of support mons have similar movesets. This thing has so many supportive weapons at it's disposal: Spikes, SR, Toxic Spikes, Rapid Spin, Volt Switch, etc. He does have some strengths over Skarm. This is why I don't think being outclassed is an argument. Defog is hard to run on a Skarm set, and if you want to use it you remove your hazards too. Rapid Spin is better because you only remove yours. Sure, it's probably not gonna last that long, but if you decide to keep it, it's a meh rapid spinner. Also, Toxic Spikes is not to be underrated. Two turns gives free Toxic's for a while. If the other team has no Heal Bell mons, its a very good tool against other teams to whittle them down. And, Volt Switch is by far its biggest thing over Skarm. Slow pivots are usually the best pivots because they are bulky and give the Volt Switched a clean start. Now, I'm not too certain on Forretress going to D, but in terms of the definition of D rank, I do honestly think it fits. It's a decent supportive threat, but pretty bad in everything else. It's kinda outclassed by skarm but it has some things that it doesn't. It's also has a semi unique trait in being a supportive pivot, and it has many supportive weapons. Sadly, Forretress lacks Roost, which is one thing Skarm has over it. Oh well, right?

It's offensive attributes suck and they're really meh. But even then, his supportive tools kinda outweigh that. I think he's a good enough candidate now, with spike stacking and stacking in general being a decent portion of the meta. tbh it shouldn't go any higher to d if its ranked, but i guess it can go there now. TFL's ranking wasn't that out of the ordinary a month or so ago tbh, and support mons are just more viable now. I mean look at Garchomp, a purely offensive mon, is being pushed to A+ for a Tank set.

D isn't that big of a push, but tbh I don't really care where it goes.