Assuming Metagross doesn't have either Hammer Arm or Earthquake is a massive assumption and leap in the dark because any Metagross player worth their salt will tell you that while dropping one may be fine, you have to have either or for absolutely essential coverage. While Houndoom is an extremely underrated threat, there are a lot of checks to it that stop it doing it's thing. However, it's ability to beat stall singlehandedly should not go underestimated. It fits B rank imo.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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Houndoom does seem cool to me just because his speed tier means he can break stall and still pull his weight against offense. While he obviously won't be able to switch in on Metagross's EQ/Hammer Arm, nothing else Metagross throws at him threatens him more than Doom does Gross. Outspeeding and being able to check arguably the best Offense/Balance Mega, in addition to murdering Stall means Houndoom is almost always in a position to pull some weight for the team against several teams.
Not sure if it's enough to move up a sub-rank, but I agree with the sentiment that he got better with Greninja's departure.
Frankly I don't think doom deserves the raise several mons that are higher tiered do the same job better. Mega sable slaughters stall, megas like zard have less speed but hit much harder without taking a direct L to keldeo, also doom is hit hard by most priority that is not a sucker punch but from bisharp it still does around 30%, and most other megas in OU can setup and sweep much earlier with much less support like zard X and mega altaria. With all that being said I am sure doom has some strong sets and honestly a special fire/dark with setup is pretty good but it just gets checked quite easily so unless there is a threatening set that I am completely unaware of I really don't think it deserves to move up. Keep Doom B imo.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Houndoom: 91-108 (31.2 - 37.1%) -- 78.1% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Houndoom: 168-198 (57.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Houndoom: 216-254 (74.2 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(sorry if these calcs are kinda useless I just thought they might as well be added)
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Houndoom: 168-198 (57.7 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Houndoom: 216-254 (74.2 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(sorry if these calcs are kinda useless I just thought they might as well be added)
So.
About that Mega Medicham which is usable but has no real niche and is only capable of doing their specific task and failing at doing anything more than that. It's pretty mediocre but it's viable enough to justify it's use on select teams. It does have multiple crippling flaws compared to Mega Gallade that prevents it from being the better choice the majority of the time, and is severely outclassed by Mega Gallade because of it.
Mega Medicham for D
I don't think Keldeo is S rank material. An awful lot of teams have some sort of FWG core going on and unless it's a ferrothorn they probably have 2 full counters at the ready. From water you have slowbro, starmie, tentacruel, alomomola and grass there's celebi, venu, amoongus, tangrowth. These are so commonly used together that there's no way keldeo is going to be a hole puncher like he was in BW (with infinite rain).
He's the best water to use since greninja is gone but, since he's NOT greninja, there are just too many extra things that can be used in conjunction with the aforementioned water/grass mons like latis, altaria, tornadus, clef, and so on that easily beat it. SubCM is... good I guess... but giving up specs HP flying / HP elec to immediately get through at least half of the water/grass core is pretty damning. Furthermore you completely lose out on icy wind! Make no mistake, with greninja gone, if you want a fast powerful water then the only choices are keldeo and starmie. But they're leagues under greninja and keldeo in particular is too heavily prepared for.
As a final note I want to say that keldeo is not directly causing his counters to be on every team -- i.e. he is not somehow S rank by virtue of causing some sort of overcentralization. A core such as slowbro+amoongus is ridiculously effective against a wide swath of the meta in general and completely wrecking keldeo is something that comes as a bit of an afterthought. Take into account the offensive counters like latias and starmie and it seems like neither defensive nor offensive teams are having much trouble with the thing. Against a stall team he is almost guaranteed to be up against 3 counters/checks (water grass and clef) and against an offensive team he'll be taking severe punishment from the likes of metagross, talonflame, azumarill, latios, thundurus, and so on.
Finally, every single status in the book is detrimental. Even burn is going to be adding an extra 12% to the 6% from rocks on every switch in, which sucks quite a lot even though it doesn't affect damage output.
I think Keldeo had a very brief period after greninja was banned where he was just slightly forgotten on the ladder, and pretty effective, but everything instantly adjusted around him. People thought that since greninja is gone maybe they didn't have to prepare for strong fast hydro pumps anymore. But now teams retain their water checks and there's no way for keldeo to run things like extrasensory and gunk shot to get through his counters -- he just has water/fighting and some 55/66 bp coverage moves -- hardly S.
He's the best water to use since greninja is gone but, since he's NOT greninja, there are just too many extra things that can be used in conjunction with the aforementioned water/grass mons like latis, altaria, tornadus, clef, and so on that easily beat it. SubCM is... good I guess... but giving up specs HP flying / HP elec to immediately get through at least half of the water/grass core is pretty damning. Furthermore you completely lose out on icy wind! Make no mistake, with greninja gone, if you want a fast powerful water then the only choices are keldeo and starmie. But they're leagues under greninja and keldeo in particular is too heavily prepared for.
As a final note I want to say that keldeo is not directly causing his counters to be on every team -- i.e. he is not somehow S rank by virtue of causing some sort of overcentralization. A core such as slowbro+amoongus is ridiculously effective against a wide swath of the meta in general and completely wrecking keldeo is something that comes as a bit of an afterthought. Take into account the offensive counters like latias and starmie and it seems like neither defensive nor offensive teams are having much trouble with the thing. Against a stall team he is almost guaranteed to be up against 3 counters/checks (water grass and clef) and against an offensive team he'll be taking severe punishment from the likes of metagross, talonflame, azumarill, latios, thundurus, and so on.
Finally, every single status in the book is detrimental. Even burn is going to be adding an extra 12% to the 6% from rocks on every switch in, which sucks quite a lot even though it doesn't affect damage output.
I think Keldeo had a very brief period after greninja was banned where he was just slightly forgotten on the ladder, and pretty effective, but everything instantly adjusted around him. People thought that since greninja is gone maybe they didn't have to prepare for strong fast hydro pumps anymore. But now teams retain their water checks and there's no way for keldeo to run things like extrasensory and gunk shot to get through his counters -- he just has water/fighting and some 55/66 bp coverage moves -- hardly S.
I disagree. I've been testing out M-Doom a lot in this meta and I believe that M-Doom should move up to B+ as well. As some have already stated, with Greninja now out of the way, M-Doom has received a pretty big pseudo buff. His offensive typing and speed is pretty good in a tier where 110 has stabilised to be one of the best speed tier and this allows him to be a great asset when playing against offensively-oriented teams. With access to fast Taunt and Nasty Plot (as well as Will O Wisp), it has a very strong offensive presence and is able to break stall teams down (even those with Unaware Clef) with relative ease. Despite the lack of bulk to switch in, the hard hitting moves (Dark Pulse and Fire Blast) allows him to wear offensive teams down quickly as well due to his stellar speed tier (does it remind you of a certain frog?) being able to take on the 110 speed tier (MMeta, Lati twins, Gallade, Gengar) pretty well.
D-Bond on M-Doom is also an interesting choice as it allows M-Doom to pull down an opposing mon like Keld, Tar, Conk as well as making it easier for your team to handle offense.
Yes, it is weak to rocks as well as being pretty weak to common priorities such as Aqua Jet and Mach Punch (both of which you have zero reason to stay in on), however, it's powerful stabs coupled with strong wallbreaking potential in a meta which stall based teams thrive, gives you more reason to run it in ORAS OU rather than XY OU. I think it is time little hell doggie here joined it's johto Electric typing dog brother in B+ Rank.
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Not actual nominations, but there's a few points of discussion I think need to be made.
The C rank in particular seems to be a bit of a mess atm; having gone barely touched aside from Serperior and Pidgeot.
First off, C-.
Pangoro especially I think needs to be looked at; as it was only put there as a preliminary rankings thanks to it's buffs in ORAS tutors and was never discussed again.
Noivern's placement also needs to be looked at because I don't think it's been defined exactly what it does.
What does Ludicolo have to offer to a Rain Team and does C- reflect whatever niche it has?
With the rise of Gourgeist-XL, is Gourgeist-Small still considered viable?
C also needs looked at I think.
Mega Glalie has garnered near to no discussion since it's placement.
Do Mega Aggron and Mega Blastoise still justify their placement with the inflated opportunity cost? This was brought up and touched on lightly but I feel there should be a little more talk on it.
Rotom-Heat is a little oddity whose niches I have yet to find.
An odd one out from this bunch is something I think I'd like to nominate to move up to C+, Infernape. It still has some pretty damn good lead/anti-lead and mixed sets, but with the lack of replays and experience I'm not entirely sure on this nomination myself. Again, I'd like to see some discussion, because the C ranks seem to have been swept under the blanket when everyone diverted their attention towards C- Mega Pidgeot, Serperior and the Greninja ban.
The C rank in particular seems to be a bit of a mess atm; having gone barely touched aside from Serperior and Pidgeot.
First off, C-.
Pangoro especially I think needs to be looked at; as it was only put there as a preliminary rankings thanks to it's buffs in ORAS tutors and was never discussed again.
Noivern's placement also needs to be looked at because I don't think it's been defined exactly what it does.
What does Ludicolo have to offer to a Rain Team and does C- reflect whatever niche it has?
With the rise of Gourgeist-XL, is Gourgeist-Small still considered viable?
C also needs looked at I think.
Mega Glalie has garnered near to no discussion since it's placement.
Do Mega Aggron and Mega Blastoise still justify their placement with the inflated opportunity cost? This was brought up and touched on lightly but I feel there should be a little more talk on it.
Rotom-Heat is a little oddity whose niches I have yet to find.
An odd one out from this bunch is something I think I'd like to nominate to move up to C+, Infernape. It still has some pretty damn good lead/anti-lead and mixed sets, but with the lack of replays and experience I'm not entirely sure on this nomination myself. Again, I'd like to see some discussion, because the C ranks seem to have been swept under the blanket when everyone diverted their attention towards C- Mega Pidgeot, Serperior and the Greninja ban.
Ludicolo beats Ferrothorn, a major thorn in Rain's side, with Focus Blast. It also deals with some bulky waters that might give you trouble (like Slowbro) and fucks over the rare Gastrodon.
rotom-h has the advantage of being able to take on electrics (i e megaman, raikou, mag, thundy, etc) better than rotom wash can, and can take down ferro. i had used it a lot during the suspect, and its always just been... underwhelming. it certainly has a niche, but with keldeo and starmie on the rise, i think rotom-wash is better in this meta. i think rotom-h should move down to c-
Specs Omastar 2hkos ferro in rain
Kabutops and pert both can also carry fighting coverage
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 221-263 (62.7 - 74.7%)
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 83-99 (23.5 - 28.1%)
Has to rely on hitting 2 focus blasts in a row which is always shaky
In addition it is a lot worse vs things like lati@s.
Rain teams can usually only afford two swift swimmers and most likely i would want mega pert, kabu, omastar or kingdra over ludicolo. Seriously when was the last time you saw a ludicolo rain team?
I don't think defensive Rotom-H is that worth using
I think Choice Scarf Rotom-H plays a pretty good offensive role. It can check non scarfed variants of Starmie and Keldeo with Volt Switch or Thunderbolt in addition to being a huge check to steels like Mega Metagross, Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn and Skarmory with Overheat. Trick is for stuff like Cresselia or Chansey. HP Grass/Ice for coverage (for 4x weak stuff, mostly ground types) or you can use Thunderbolt. Volt Switch is the main attack to use though
It has drawbacks of course, like ground types switching into Volt Switch and being weak to Stealth Rocks but that's why it's in C
Keldeo really shouldnt rise atm, its sets all do relatively well and its easy to slap on a team but the reality is that every team unintentionally carries checks and counters to it, sometimes multiple. Sub CM isnt as consistent as you all make it out to be, unless youre facing an incompetent, it rarely manages to pressure the opponent, let alone pull off a sweep. Keldeos counters are not uncommon or unviable either, in the A ranks alone there are ~11 hard counters to Keldeo, all of whom are not there solely because they beat Keldeo.
The major reason I feel Keldeo isnt as viable is the much faster pace of the meta. While in xy, 108 Spe was a cut above the rest of the tier, with very few mons outspeeding it who can also ko. In oras, the benchmark for speed has risen dramatically to the point where if youre not 110 or higher, youre considered moderately fast. This is especially noticeable for keldeo as the majority of the new, and common, megas that outspeed it can ko with ease. This encourages the use of Scarf, which is a big momentum loser and lacks power.
Ive seen people compare Keldeo with Lando-T and the first glace similarities are definately there, both are easy to slap on a team and perform, despite a fair amount of counters. The big difference is that Lando-T has many varied roles which are near flawlessly fulfilled and is not as concerned about counters (due to being more akin to a support mon rather than an offensive wallbreaker) while Keldeo performs 3 near identical roles and is completely reliant on its fourth move to beat its checks and counters. Not to mention Lando-T is the most questionable of the S rank anyway.
The major reason I feel Keldeo isnt as viable is the much faster pace of the meta. While in xy, 108 Spe was a cut above the rest of the tier, with very few mons outspeeding it who can also ko. In oras, the benchmark for speed has risen dramatically to the point where if youre not 110 or higher, youre considered moderately fast. This is especially noticeable for keldeo as the majority of the new, and common, megas that outspeed it can ko with ease. This encourages the use of Scarf, which is a big momentum loser and lacks power.
Ive seen people compare Keldeo with Lando-T and the first glace similarities are definately there, both are easy to slap on a team and perform, despite a fair amount of counters. The big difference is that Lando-T has many varied roles which are near flawlessly fulfilled and is not as concerned about counters (due to being more akin to a support mon rather than an offensive wallbreaker) while Keldeo performs 3 near identical roles and is completely reliant on its fourth move to beat its checks and counters. Not to mention Lando-T is the most questionable of the S rank anyway.
Focus Blast sucks
Focus Blast sucks
Focus Blast sucks
You're already using Hydro Pump a lot. You don't want to use Focus Blast if you don't have to. Kabutops and Mega Swampert both have Low Kick which 2HKOs Ferrothorn (Swamp EQ does 40%.) Kingdra can't do much besides Scald Burn (LO Hydro still does a good 30%) but shouldn't be out when Ferro is healthy anyway. Specs Omastar 2HKOs it with Hydro Pump because lol. And they have their secondary STABs (Rock, Ground, Dragon) which give neutral coverage against all waters, besides certain dual-types. Mega Slowbro, specifically, can be 2HKOed by Kingdra and Omastar, and if it tries anything funny Politoed can encore it. For Gastrodon, if I was really worried about that I can just run HP Grass Omastar, or just put a grass type on my team which I usually do.
I would never personally use Ludicolo, but I can at least see the merits. It's not needed for handling bulky waters, but it gets through water resists more easily (specifically, Rest Manaphy would be a primary reason why I would ever consider Ludicolo but it's not that common) while healing itself. But not much else, besides EQ resist, while being slower and weaker than Kingdra (base 70 is not that good,) being nowhere near as powerful as Omastar or as bulky as Swampert. It's not that Ludicolo is bad, it's just that the four best swimmers are too good, and it really doesn't pair that well with Kingdra who's the best.
I can still see it for C- though, but only cause the current quality of the C- mons is not that great.
Greninja's banning didn't benefit it at all, in fact you could argue that Greninja's banning is actually worse for Mega Houndoom. You see Houndoom's biggest problem aside from frailty and reliance on Fire Blast for immediate power is the fact he relies on his dual STAB for coverage. And while his dual STAB isn't resisted by much there are some pokemon who do resist fire+dark that benefitted from Greninja's banning. A good example is Azumaril, who lost a lot of usage and had one of his sets take a beating to its viability (AV) due to the savage that was Gunk Shot Greninja. Now that Greninja's gone Azumaril can take OU by storm once again and he is one of Mega Houndoom's best counters. In addition, Keldeo is also a lot better, taking the title of the premier water type in OU from Greninja and regaining his ability to run other sets aside from scarf.
At the very least Mega Houndoom didn't gain from Greninja's ban and there is a case for saying he's even worse. I'm not denying he has a niche but he hasn't gotten anything new so he should stay at B.
Replies in Bold
When Greninja was banned, a simple chain reaction followed. Most people argued that Greninja's new move tutor moves, Gunk Shot and Low Kick pushed him over the edge, as AV Azu, Sylveon, Empoleon and Clefable no longer checked Greninja. So, with Greninja banned, the prevalence of fairies increased, as you pointed out. However, due to this, another type also increased in usage. Steel types. Mega Metagross has risen in usage considerably, because the only thing holding him back was Greninja, and with that banned, Mega Metagross is free to reign as one of the best mega's and fairy killers in OU. Another Mega that has also risen in popularity is Mega Sableye, more specifically, Mega Sableye Stall. Mega Houndoom checks both these pokemon, as it can set up on Mega Sableye, while Mega Sableye can't touch it, while it OHKO's Mega Metagross with Fire Blast (252 SpA Mega Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 350-414 (116.2 - 137.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Additionally, it has a great speed tier, outspeeding Base 110's like the Lati twins, and with Greninja gone, it doesn't have to worry about being OHKO'd by Hydro Pump. So I would have to disagree; although one fairy has increased in usage, that doesn't take away from the fact that Mega Houndoom is much more viable in the OU tier after the Greninja ban. It does have flaws however, being relatively weak defensive stats, meaning that it is weak to priority.
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I know Focus Blast sucks, I never said otherwise ._.
Anyway, I think Kyurem-B should rise to A-. Totally [insert that word that starts with an "a" about personal experience bias I can't for the life for me spell] reasoning so feel free to dismiss it, but from what I've seen on the ladder recently a ton of teams are really weak to the LO set and have like zero reliable switch-ins (even Mega Metagross can die to LO Earth Power after Rocks). Killing massive pains like Heatran, Clefable, Mega Venu, and Rotom-W is also a bonus. Scarf can revenge kill a lot and even cripples Mega Metagross with Earth Power so something like Bisharp can clean up, but Scarf is really prediction reliant since it hates being locked into anything, has difficulty cleaning late-game because of it, and it's really easy to see coming sometimes.
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The point is while all other S rank mons have counters, their counters have something that makes walling them an issue. For Metagross the problem it has very few reliable counters at all, Landorus uses its counters as Uturn bait for free setup with a wincon and Sableye has a small pool of counters and is notoriously easy to setup. Keldeo has a noticably larger pool of counters than Landoge, keldeos counters are much more viable and fit on much more varied playstyles. Also yes, there are ~11 keldeo counters in the A ranks who the majority of dont mind anything that keldeo can do, which I can happily list if it takes your fancy.
Dont pretend the scarf set is "really good by the way". It was the only way Keldeo could remain relevant during the greninja period and remains a sub-optimal choice for keldeo. Specs Keldeo might be able to pressure some slower mons but it vastly preferred to force switches on frailer mons with speed tiers it just beats. Specs might be strong, but with more fast mons running around, Keldeo finds it harder to pressure anything like it did in xy.
I mean by "Many varied roles" that Landorus can do three extremely different roles, each with small amounts of variation and all three are executed near flawlessly. Keldeo, on the other hand, has three near identical sets which do the same time, which you said about 10 times in different wording (Wallbreaker and nuke are essentially the same thing genius), "hole puncher." Scarf is a waste of keldeos good traits, it sacrifices much needed offensive presence for the ability to revenge kill Mega Sceptile and toss any momentum you had out the window, so the only role is has that its worth using is a holepuncher with a limited movepool and depends on scald to beat counters. SubCM is by no means a wincon either, i have not seen it sweep ever, its barely able to set up. Heck, Landorus has a more varied movepool, Ive even used a trapping set with HP Fire to beat Ferrothorn and a gravity set to beat Skarm, although Smack Down + EQ does the same thing.
Forgot the mega lop was S now, I agree lops the least worthy of S.
Extra insurance against Ferrothorn is always worthwhile on a rain team. You can run an anti-Ferrothorn move on every Pokemon and still find it awkward to deal with, because it beats pretty much all rain mons 1v1. Focus Blast on Ludicolo can finish off a weakened Ferrothorn that another Pokemon like the two you mentioned couldn't quite break entirely.
But that's not really the main advantage anyway. The main advantage is not losing your momentum to bulky water types like Rotom-W which nearly all rain mons struggle with. Ludicolo can run moves that beat every Water resistant type: Giga Drain for Waters (and longevity!), Ice Beam for Dragons & reliability vs Landorus/Gliscor, Focus Blast for Ferrothorn and weakened Chansey. It also provides great defensive synergy as it takes neutral damage from Water's two natural weaknesses, Electric and Grass, so it's one of the few offensive Pokemon that's bulky enough to switch into and counter a lot of rain checks.
Honestly it's one of my go-to Swift Swimmers, it's actually really good.
Terrakion A- to B+
Terrakion isn't that good anymore.The speed creep and the addition of oras megas were awful for it and shut up a lot of it's usefulness.Terrakion currently is one of the few mons to lose against every thing in the S Rank (unless terrak runs scarf)and also struggles with a bunch of pokemon in the a ranks like mega altaria,clefable,azumarill,keldeo,latios and scizor.Although gren ban helps him by losing 1 check,mega gross and fairies also gain more popularity so it's more bad than good.108 speed is also a little fast tier and is outrun by the 110 and above tiers.I don't find him on par with threats like starmie,toad,rachi,celebi and mega aero so he deserves to move down.The lead set also struggles with mega eye unless terrak runs SD+lum berry and that's only if stone edge hits
After a great showing by Tom bus on his youtube I think archeops and cacturne both deserve D rank. Archeops is an effective suicide lead which hits hard with shell smash and if defeatist is activated it can fire off endeavours. The combination of taunt and stealth rocks also allows archeops to prevent defog and keeping the rocks up, it can also head smash to kill itself when in low health to prevent defog and rapid spin. Cacturne is slightly more niche and less reliable than archeops but as a focus sash lead the combination of sucker punch, swords dance and spikes allows to stack spikes whilst being an effective offensive presence for offensive teams. It can also run counter to punish leading lando-t which will u-turn on most occasions aswell as most physical attackers as they will likely bring cacturne close to its sash. Both of these mons struggle against sableye although cacturne can SD + Seed bomb against calm mind variants but straight up loses to foul play sableye. All in all for their effectiveness in damaging the opposition with lures such as endeavour and counter and their high attack stats these mons deserve D for their roles as suicide leads. Evidence:
Archeops is complete garbage and really doesn't deserve a ranking. That's almost like asking for Slaking to have a ranking. It's horribly frail, has possibly the worst ability in the game and is outclassed completely as a suicide lead by both Azelf and Mamoswine, the ladder actually has dual screens to work with. Mamoswine also has Endeavor + Ice Shard, making it much more annoying. I don't really have an opinion on Cacturne, but you might want to put some replays up of these two in action. More than just one.
Archeops has a kinda minor niche as it can get endeavor, taunt and spinblock by suiciding with Head Smash, it's a really small niche, but pretty sure it can fit for D rank, as it's no way more viable than that.
For Cacturne, I don't really know, it's really slow for a suicide lead, that Landorus-T scenario is implying that Landorus-T will used U-turn, and assuming it's a scarf variant it always works, but if it's a defensive variant or offensive SR, a misplayed Counter can be really bad, as then your opponent knows what you are going to do. I think Froslass is better at leading with spikes than Cacturne, but I can be wrong about that.
For Cacturne, I don't really know, it's really slow for a suicide lead, that Landorus-T scenario is implying that Landorus-T will used U-turn, and assuming it's a scarf variant it always works, but if it's a defensive variant or offensive SR, a misplayed Counter can be really bad, as then your opponent knows what you are going to do. I think Froslass is better at leading with spikes than Cacturne, but I can be wrong about that.
Archeps is not near as bad as Slaking, but no, NO, NOOO... Archeops' horrible ability and weak deenses causes that a heavy hitting metagame Archeops has forced to do a Focus Sash set and when a 1HP it can't attack well because of his horrible ability.
If you want to do something similar, do this (is almost unviable but it's clearly better thsan Archeops).
Aerdactyle @ Aerodactylite/Focus Sash
Ability: Presure
EVs: /252 Atk/24 Def232 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
-Stealth Rock
-Stone Edge/Rock Slide/Aerial Ace
-Taunt/Aqua Tail/Earthquake
-Roost/Taunt
Or use many of the Stealth Rock setters available like Aelf, Infernape, Mamoswine, Terrakion, Garchomp, among others.
About Cacturne, spike stacking is not good this gen but if you want to use Spikes, use bulky setters like Ferrothorn or Skarmory.
If you want suicide Spikers:
Froslass @ Focus Sash
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Destiny Bond
- Ice Beam
But in no way, Archeops and Cacturne are near viable in OU. In all other words, I will nominate them for both pokemon being "Blacklisted".
Also, I want to nominate Meta Metagross for "Conclusion Reached" Pokemon, because it's clear that it's the best Pokemon of the OU metagame and there isn't any reason to go out of S.
I nominate Mega Lopunny down to A+. I still think that Lopunny is one of the best Pokemon of the metagame and is even better than the average A+ Pokemon, but because it competes with Mega metagross (who is vastly superior).
I'm also thinking of if we should add an E ranking and add Venomoth here. it appears that the OU metagame is too hostile for Venomoth to be viable. It has to be E ranking because it's BL.
everything that set does, except for trick, is outclassed by megaman. sure, trick is nifty, but why not use rotom-w (or latios but for comparisons sake) if u want a trick scarfer? it isnt weak to rocks, so it can switch in more freely, and has certain advantages over rotom-h (being able to beat heatran, spdef talon, and its most spammable move doesnt lower its already meh special attack) and wow i cant believe im arguing for scarf rotom-w lmao
but: yeah offensive rotom-h is outclassed by megaman and is a very sub-optimal in an offensive role
EDIT: while i was typing this i didnt see that people were arguing for archeops and cacturne to be rank. all i have to say is: holy shit what
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Eievui-Nymphia The "Conclusion Reached" category only exists to prevent discussion on Pokemon which have already been discussed at great length and do nothing but derail the thread as a result. Since there hasn't been any discussion on MMetagross for ages, there really isn't any need to put it in Conclusion Reached (even though it is admittedly not dropping to A+ ever)
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