Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[astroboy]

Look, i know you guys want the blue rank back, but its not happening, i'm sorry.

...what....its still not gonna be blue even if keld goes to s....

anyways to make this somewhat relevant

Keldeo is a definite A+ mon. Are you telling me you guys are comparing it to MMeta and MLop? Its not even on the same level as Lando T, considered the "worst" S rank mon, if thats a thing.

who ever compared them? just because ferrothorn and megallade are in the same subrank doesnt mean theyre comparable.

and how are you arguing for lando-t to be the ¨worst¨? its certainly not the best, but i think its about as viable as mega lop

With all those checks and counters, its almost forced to run support to stop this. Usually most A+ rank mon dont need more than 1 pokemon to support them with checks and counters, but Keldeo does. This isnt a bad thing, but honestly its not that good to base half your team off a pony.

so? every mon appreciates its checks and counters out of the way? mega pinsir needed mag and defog/spin support, and it was still one of the best mons in XY.

With all those flaws, it seriously should stay A+. Also, its SubCM set isnt really that effective as you need to run support to take out anything that threatens its speed level. Eliminating Lati@s and shit isnt easy, as most Bisharps dont run Pursuit and such. Its not even at the right level to Lando T as i stated above, probably the worst S rank mon.

sub cm may not have the best matchup against offense because of the speed creep, but its speed isnt like, horrendous? like its not like base 50 or something. you still outspeed a decent portion of mons.
but its totally amazing as a wincon against stall and balance, being able to beat megasable cause of the godsend that is scald.
also ive been seeing pursuit bisharp a lot more, due to the increase in popularity of chary, but w/e w/e.[/quote]

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

Eliminating Lati@s and shit isnt easy, as most Bisharps dont run Pursuit and such

Wow.

You're using Keldeo. You want a way to get rid of Latios. So you run Bisharp. But oh no, most Bisharps don't run Pursuit! Wait, hold on, couldn't you, you know, put Pursuit on Bisharp??

And "It really cant do anything to anything that it doesnt hit SE." Yeah 129 base SpA with 110 and 100 85 BP STAB moves don't do shit.

Please think before posting.

 

[pika pal]

Something I think needs to be considered as far as the match ups of mons like Keldeo against Stall (and this is something I'm legitimately thinking about myself): Offense has some faster staples, but how much has the playstyle on the whole sped up?

To give a very small and hasty example, Mega Metagross is probably the premier offensive Mega, and Keldeo doesn't fare the best against him. With that said, what kind of support does Metagross want, and how do those compare to Keldeo in terms of what checks what? Metagross obviously checks Keldeo, but if Keldeo eats into the support he wants/needs, Metagross might need something to take the load off it to avoid being worn down or risking a Scald burn.

I don't consider myself versed enough with Keldeo to say whether it should stay or rise, but the factor above is something that's crossed my mind with a few other things suffering Speed creep, and Keldeo in particular just because it's close to that new "standard" but not quite.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

...what....its still not gonna be blue even if keld goes to s....

anyways to make this somewhat relevant


who ever compared them? just because ferrothorn and megallade are in the same subrank doesnt mean theyre comparable.

and how are you arguing for lando-t to be the ¨worst¨? its certainly not the best, but i think its about as viable as mega lop


so? every mon appreciates its checks and counters out of the way? mega pinsir needed mag and defog/spin support, and it was still one of the best mons in XY.


sub cm may not have the best matchup against offense because of the speed creep, but its speed isnt like, horrendous? like its not like base 50 or something. you still outspeed a decent portion of mons.
but its totally amazing as a wincon against stall and balance, being able to beat megasable cause of the godsend that is scald.
also ive been seeing pursuit bisharp a lot more, due to the increase in popularity of chary, but w/e w/e.

[/quote]

Its not that they are comparable, its when you rank above or below the pokemons standing rank, it has to fit in the rank. They dont have the same roles, but one has an overall better power ranking.

I said it was considered, I never agreed it was the worst. But, its pretty close between MLop and Lando T.

Its the fact that its hard to cover all those pokemon in one team. Keldeo relies on something to take out those pokemon, and the best option you have is MMeta. The point is, is that Keldeo needs a lot of pokemon out before it can reliably sweep, and then some more with stall.

Mega Pinsir was also faster and much stronger than the metagame. Keldeo is not.

SubCM is an overrated but semi decent set. The problem is is that you cant set up when any of the counters are alive, and even then some non counters can take it on also (Scarf Lando can get rid of the Sub, switch into check/counter, etc, there is other pokemon with the same roles but thats about it.)

Stall has answers for Keld. Look at: Unaware Clef, Celebi, the rare Jellicent, and especially that whore MBro and MVenu.

From what ive seen, Pursuit has been pretty uncommon, but I guess I could be wrong. Jolly SD seems to be more popular.

See, what people dont understand is that you have to compare mons from a rank above. It doesnt matter if they have different roles, it matters about the viability. MMeta not only covers more, it has faster speed, defense, Special Defense, and Speed. I dont think i need to go over what it covers cause basically everything except Skarmory and a few others stop this thing with all its sets in play. MLop has unresisted STABs and is overall a more threatening force to deal with. It has some answers, but definetly less than Keldeo. Lando T Intimidates and checks a plethora of mons, including itself, while it can run a defensive or offensive scarf set that both give pressure to the opposing team. And lastly, MSab reflects any non attack and forces other teams to run a Mold Breaker/Fairy. It definetly has a good amount of checks, but lets remind everyone, Calm Mind and Will O Wisp destroys some on the switch in.

Wow.

You're using Keldeo. You want a way to get rid of Latios. So you run Bisharp. But oh no, most Bisharps don't run Pursuit! Wait, hold on, couldn't you, you know, put Pursuit on Bisharp??

And "It really cant do anything to anything that it doesnt hit SE." Yeah 129 base SpA with a 110 and 100 BP moves don't do shit.

Please think before posting.

Bisharp favors the SD jolly set more and seems to love getting a +2 from anything besides Defog. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from personal experience, i havent seen a Pursuit Bish in around 5 weeks.

Its movepool is overall weak (the moves he uses, ofc) With its strongest being a 85% Hydro Pump, and everything else being lower than 90 iirc. Even if you wanted to run Pursuit on Bish, Latios does a shitload of damage with Draco Meteor (around 80%) and OHKO's with the rare HP Fighting. Bish isnt a safe switchin to Latios.

Edit: http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/keldeo from what i see here, unless you wanna run Hyper Beam Keldeo, his strongest move is Hydro Pump, doing 110 damage. Thats its strongest move, while powerful, it is inaccurate and everything else does much, much less.

Please, if you are gonna post back, post back with some relative evidence. And to kick back, please, do your research before posting.

 

[Tressed]

Bisharp favors the SD jolly set more and seems to love getting a +2 from anything besides Defog. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from personal experience, i havent seen a Pursuit Bish in around 5 weeks.

Its movepool is overall weak (the moves he uses, ofc) With its strongest being a 85% Hydro Pump, and everything else being lower than 90 iirc.

Edit: http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/keldeo from what i see here, unless you wanna run Hyper Beam Keldeo, his strongest move is Hydro Pump, doing 110 damage. Thats its strongest move, while powerful, it is inaccurate and everything else does much, much less.

Please, if you are gonna post back, post back with some relative evidence. And to kick back, please, do your research before posting.

There's this thing called teambuilding, where you build a team of Pokemon that support each other in order to beat your opponent's team. In a lot of cases, yes, Swords Dance Bisharp is viable for offensive teams. If, however, Keldeo is a win condition for you, then you might choose to run Pursuit Bisharp in order to trap and kill Keldeo's stops. This is an extremely effective core that has seen extensive use since early XY, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

Base 129 Sp Attack backing a 110 BP Water STAB is by no means weak, especially when potentially being buffed by a Life Orb, Choice Specs, or Calm Mind boosts. Yeah, okay, the accuracy isn't fantastic, but 85% accuracy is still reliable enough.

Moreover, you disregard what the other moves actually do. Scald only has 80 BP, but a 30% chance to cause a burn gives Keldeo a way to wear down it's counters by itself, not to mention a reliable Water STAB for cleaning up late game. Secret Sword has only 85 BP, but it's ability to hit on the physical side means that it can break through things like Chansey, massively increasing it's ability to wallbreak and pose a legitimate threat to stall teams. Moves like Icy Wind and HP Electric look weak, but they allow Keldeo to break past things it would normally struggle with, such as Gyarados, Dragonite, and Lati@s.

TL;DR

please, do your research before posting.

EDIT: How many times did I write break in this little spiel? -_-

EDIT^2: Just wanted to point out that I'm rather indifferent if Keldeo goes up or not, just wanted to correct a few things.

 

[pika pal]

Bisharp favors the SD jolly set more and seems to love getting a +2 from anything besides Defog. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from personal experience, i havent seen a Pursuit Bish in around 5 weeks.

Please, if you are gonna post back, post back with some relative evidence. And to kick back, please, do your research before posting.[/quote]
It's not a matter of whether Pursuit Bisharp is common. It would be equally effective against a given Latios set if it was on 2 teams or 2000 teams. And regardless of what set Bisharp prefers for its own merits, if I need a Pursuit trapper, Bisharp is usually the most viable user of the move, even if it's not his most viable set. If my team needs both a SR user and a check to special attackers like Thundurus and Latios, I'd use SR Clefable, which, though not Clefable's most effective set, is a viable set that fits the role I need filled for my team.

You want us to post relevant evidence? Alright,
252 Atk Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 306-362 (102.3 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 229-270 (84.1 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Latios is OHKO'd by Sucker Punch everytime, and can never OHKO back without HP Fighting. Even if Bisharp can't quite switch in himself, if Bisharp gets in via Voltturn or Revenge, Latios isn't getting out alive, especially if it used Draco.

252 Atk Bisharp Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 152-182 (50.8 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, if Bisharp is such a problem, why not use HP Fighting, which also hits Tyranitar, the other trapper? Because without Fire or Earthquake (which is redundant coverage w/ Fighting) Latios is stopped by most other relevant Steel Types: Metagross, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Klefki, Skarmory

Hide

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 79-94 (26.2 - 31.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 159-187 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 86-101 (30.6 - 35.9%) -- 44.7% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 312-368 (104.3 - 123%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 265-312 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 133-156 (37.7 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 186-219 (62.2 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Or you just get Paralyzed.)

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 190-226 (59.7 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 95-113 (29.8 - 35.5%) -- 28.1% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 229-270 (68.5 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 114-135 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- 46.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Roost Stalled out of LO recoil)
[\hide]

So yeah, HP Fighting isn't an appealing choice unless your team REALLY hates Bisharp. And if you're going to say Pursuit Bisharp isn't worth considering because it's uncommon (despite being among defaults on the calc and listings), don't tell me HP Fighting Latios is when it's Other Options at best.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

There's this thing called teambuilding, where you build a team of Pokemon that support each other in order to beat your opponent's team. In a lot of cases, yes, Swords Dance Bisharp is viable for offensive teams. If, however, Keldeo is a win condition for you, then you might choose to run Pursuit Bisharp in order to trap and kill Keldeo's stops. This is an extremely effective core that has seen extensive use since early XY, so I'm not sure what your point is here.

Base 129 Sp Attack backing a 110 BP Water STAB is by no means weak, especially when potentially being buffed by a Life Orb, Choice Specs, or Calm Mind boosts. Yeah, okay, the accuracy isn't fantastic, but 85% accuracy is still reliable enough.

Moreover, you disregard what the other moves actually do. Scald only has 80 BP, but a 30% chance to cause a burn gives Keldeo a way to wear down it's counters by itself, not to mention a reliable Water STAB for cleaning up late game. Secret Sword has only 85 BP, but it's ability to hit on the physical side means that it can break through things like Chansey, massively increasing it's ability to wallbreak and pose a legitimate threat to stall teams. Moves like Icy Wind and HP Electric look weak, but they allow Keldeo to break past things it would normally struggle with, such as Gyarados, Dragonite, and Lati@s.

TL;DR

EDIT: How many times did I write break in this little spiel? -_-

My reference in point that Keldeo shouldnt be S because every set has one huge weakness that makes it suffer. It also isnt as good in viability as any of the S ranks imo as i explained above.

Sadly i was interrupted when i said one thing wrong. I am not heavily disagreeing with it being mediocre and sub par. I dont get you guys in some points. A+ is an amazing rank. I just think he is A+ rn. He has answers. He has answers on every team. His movepool isnt powerful, per say. When you compare Victini's movepool to Keldeo, you can see the difference. Funny thing is is that Victini really doesnt hit that hard to things non SE sometimes.

Scald is an amazing weapon of choice, but Sergeant Spooky was talking about power. I easily proved him wrong. Hidden Powers are laughable at most and only reliably OHKO with 4x SE, and even then it doesnt sometimes.

Definetly not saying its bad, its a great pokemon. But, i honestly just dont think it should go to S for now. No hard feelings. Since I really dont want to argue anymore cause I know you guys are gonna pounce on me like im dinner and you havent eaten in 6 days, lets... drop it and move along before i get infracted for saying something off my own, stupid mind.

 

[pika pal]

My reference in point that Keldeo shouldnt be S because every set has one huge weakness that makes it suffer. It also isnt as good in viability as any of the S ranks imo as i explained above.

Sadly i was interrupted when i said one thing wrong. I am not heavily disagreeing with it being mediocre and sub par. I dont get you guys in some points. A+ is an amazing rank. I just think he is A+ rn. He has answers. He has answers on every team. His movepool isnt powerful, per say. When you compare Victini's movepool to Keldeo, you can see the difference. Funny thing is is that Victini really doesnt hit that hard to things non SE sometimes.

Scald is an amazing weapon of choice, but Sergeant Spooky was talking about power. I easily proved him wrong. Hidden Powers are laughable at most and only reliably OHKO with 4x SE, and even then it doesnt sometimes.

Definetly not saying its bad, its a great pokemon. But, i honestly just dont think it should go to S for now. No hard feelings. Since I really dont want to argue anymore cause I know you guys are gonna pounce on me like im dinner and you havent eaten in 6 days, lets... drop it and move along before i get infracted for saying something off my own, stupid mind.

I'm personally in the crowd that thinks Keldeo's probably better off as A+, but your arguments for it to stay just flat out weren't making sense, especially when you touched on Bisharp as a Pursuit trapper.

And yes, Hidden power isn't particularly strong if the target isn't 4x weak, but considering the kind of targets for them (Gyarados, Celebi) are usually only things resisting Keldeo's STABs anyway, that's probably what you're aiming at.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

I'm personally in the crowd that thinks Keldeo's probably better off as A+, but your arguments for it to stay just flat out weren't making sense, especially when you touched on Bisharp as a Pursuit trapper.

And yes, Hidden power isn't particularly strong if the target isn't 4x weak, but considering the kind of targets for them (Gyarados, Celebi) are usually only things resisting Keldeo's STABs anyway, that's probably what you're aiming at.

Goddamn, do i really have to talk?

Latios does too much damage to Bisharp, so a Keld+Bish core could possibly be ineffective. Now, the problem is, when you have pursuit, you have to do this really hard thing called Prediction. What if Latios stays in and OHKO's you with Draco again? What if he switches out for free while you Sucker Punch him? Bisharp usually doesnt run defense at all, thats why its so frail.

My argument for Keldeo staying in A+ were all fine, I just legitimately fucked up hard on the Bisharp part, and everyone pounced on me for that. Its like you guys have a tendency to pounce on me. I made an alt (no names cause that ruins the fun) and I havent gotten a single retort from it yet. Saying something?

Edit: I am leaning towards both sides. Keldeo to S is a very, very hard decision. I feel like it wouldnt fit in S, but then again its one of the best A+ ranks. It really is a challenging one.

And honestly, looking at everything, everything does look in place.

 

[Isa Simple]

Admittedly I haven't use dit in ages and am not really bothered by whether or not it is ranked but I did notice that Jellicent is immune to both of Keldeo's STABs and was wondering if it deserved a place on the list.

I'm thinking D atm but idk if it has some other niche I don't know of. Basically it is a great check to Keldeo and Heatran and has decent moves such as Recover, SCald and Wil-o-wisp. A lot of the things I could imagine switching into it are greatly crippled by Burn and its unique typing could be beneficial on given stall teams potentially. It has decent special bulk and the physical attackers it lures can be handled with burns. That's all I think it has going for it for now.

Like I said, I don't really care for Mr. Pingles but does it deserve a placement on the list thanks to its unique typing's immunities and resistances?

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Goddamn, do i really have to talk?

Latios does too much damage to Bisharp, so a Keld+Bish core could possibly be ineffective. Now, the problem is, when you have pursuit, you have to do this really hard thing called Prediction. What if Latios stays in and OHKO's you with Draco again? What if he switches out for free while you Sucker Punch him? Bisharp usually doesnt run defense at all, thats why its so frail.

Normal Bish has a 50/50 when trapping the Latis, however if trapping is your main reason to use Bisharp you might consider running AV Bisharp:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 92-109 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 16 HP / 240 SpD Assault Vest Bisharp: 117-138 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Bisharp Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 168-200 (56.1 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Or just run scarftar:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Or even MegaGross:

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 126-149 (41.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Btw, I agree with Keldeo staying in A+, but you really need to present your arguments better.

 

[Flamer]

Look, i know you guys want the blue rank back, but its not happening, i'm sorry.

Keldeo is a definite A+ mon. Are you telling me you guys are comparing it to MMeta and MLop? Its not even on the same level as Lando T, considered the "worst" S rank mon, if thats a thing.

Here are the problems:
It suffers from 108 speed. Remember when Keldeo used to be super fast and outsped almost everything? Wake up call, that was Gen 5. Now, the base speed tier is 110 vs HO. You can run its scarf set but then it is stuck in a move and loses on much needed power.

It needs some sort of SpA Boost. Honestly, if this thing doesnt run SpA it isnt that effective to some things. It really cant do anything to anything that doesnt hit SE.

It has common checks/counters. Talon, Azumarill, Venusaur, AV Raikou, Lati@s, and basically everything on stall has an answer to this guy. He needs support to clear all these mons, and obviously no mon could take out AV Raikou, Azu, and Talon at the same time.

With all those checks and counters, its almost forced to run support to stop this. Usually most A+ rank mon dont need more than 1 pokemon to support them with checks and counters, but Keldeo does. This isnt a bad thing, but honestly its not that good to base half your team off a pony.

With all those flaws, it seriously should stay A+. Also, its SubCM set isnt really that effective as you need to run support to take out anything that threatens its speed level. Eliminating Lati@s and shit isnt easy, as most Bisharps would rather run SD instead of Pursuit, but if you really need Pursuit, run it. Its not even at the right level to Lando T as i stated above, probably the worst S rank mon.

A+ should suffice. You guys are kinda overselling the little pony.

I may be supporting Keldeo to stay A+, but I really cant endorse most of the reasons you just said (and the ones youve said in other posts). Youve literally taken everything that it should drop for and exaggerated them tenfold, not to mention making up ridiculous "facts" as evidence. Keldeo is not a mon that requires support, rather its role is to weaken counters to let another mon sweep. The problem is that there has been a huge increase in viable checks and counters who most of which can come out on top against keldeo with near full health, meaning Keldeo has less chance of actually fulfilling its role, on top of a poor movepool where the only coverage is hidden power. Unlike the other S rank offensive supporter, Lando-T, Keldeo doesnt take advantage of counters. Lando-T uses them as U-Turn bait to bring in a setup sweeper for free. Keldeo just kinda hopes for a burn and gets forced out after.

No, Keldeo doesnt need a SpA Boost, the issue is it lacks any powerful moves to take advantage of that SpA, Scald, Secret Sword and Hidden Power balance out its High SpA and force it to run Specs. Youve also heavily exaggerated the lack of speed. I might have said Keldeo struggles because of an increase in mons that outspeed and ko it, but saying it "suffers" from 108 speed is dumb.

I get why people exaggerate, but doing it to an extent where it sounds like you're advocating a clearly A+ rank mon minimum to move to D makes more people disregard your post rather than agree

Also lol at Bish "not using pursuit."

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Goddamn, do i really have to talk?

Latios does too much damage to Bisharp, so a Keld+Bish core could possibly be ineffective. Now, the problem is, when you have pursuit, you have to do this really hard thing called Prediction. What if Latios stays in and OHKO's you with Draco again? What if he switches out for free while you Sucker Punch him? Bisharp usually doesnt run defense at all, thats why its so frail.

My argument for Keldeo staying in A+ were all fine, I just legitimately fucked up hard on the Bisharp part, and everyone pounced on me for that. Its like you guys have a tendency to pounce on me. I made an alt (no names cause that ruins the fun) and I havent gotten a single retort from it yet. Saying something?

Edit: I am leaning towards both sides. Keldeo to S is a very, very hard decision. I feel like it wouldnt fit in S, but then again its one of the best A+ ranks. It really is a challenging one.

And honestly, looking at everything, everything does look in place.

Uhm. . .
What? How on earth do you figure Keld+Bish is "possibly ineffective"? Keld + Pursuit trapper is amazing seeing as many of the things that can reliably come in on Keldeo can't deal with a Pokemon using pursuit. So, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

Uhm. . .
What? How on earth do you figure Keld+Bish is "possibly ineffective"? Keld + Pursuit trapper is amazing seeing as many of the things that can reliably come in on Keldeo can't deal with a Pokemon using pursuit. So, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.

Azu and Latis can handle the core, with Keldeo being a shaky one. You're telling me that you're gonna switch into a LO Draco Meteor? Please, have fun with that.

Its a good core, but no core is perfect.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Azu and Latis can handle the core, with Keldeo being a shaky one. You're telling me that you're gonna switch into a LO Draco Meteor? Please, have fun with that.

Its a good core, but no core is perfect.

Not like Azu is gonna enjoy switching into Scalds, Bisharp can switch into LO Draco and threaten with Pursuit/Sucker Punch, I've done it plenty of times, although AV Bisharp helps a lot with this if you can get away with not running LO/Black Glasses.

Bisharp can also beat Azumarill btw as Iron Head 2HKOs and can flinch and Azu doesn't OHKO without Superpower (or CB Play Rough).


No core is perfect, but pairing Keldeo with a pursuit trapper is a tried and true combo, and Bisharp and Ttar are the best pursuit trappers atm (CB Scizor and MegaGross are other viable choices), not really sure what point you're trying to argue here...

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Azu and Latis can handle the core, with Keldeo being a shaky one. You're telling me that you're gonna switch into a LO Draco Meteor? Please, have fun with that.

Its a good core, but no core is perfect.

It's not always One Pokemon switching into another. Cores function in many ways. So, once you wrap your head around the fact not all cores work like defensive ones you'll get the point. Keldeo + Pursuit trapper is not a core made up out of a whim, it is a core that allows a team to remove the hard counters to Keldeo so that it can proceed to sweep later on.

Ya know, "Long Term"?

 

[RichieTheGarchomp]

This is what happens when i take a break and come back.

Well, might as well take your guys choice and leave for a few weeks so I "learn" the meta more (???) Even though im still the idiot i am now that i was 3 months ago (besides the point that i'm like a bit less stupid) so... bye?

Im taking your guys advice! I agree with you guys! I agree with you guys on everything! Doesnt that make you happy? It better.

 

[RufflesPro]

People are missing something, it's fine if a Pokemon needs a little support if it's S rank.
There is no Pokemon in the S rank that does not need any kind of support, all Pokemons, including the ones in the S rank, need support, although very minimal. If a Pokemon needs support to get around some counters, but his positive traits easily patch up the low risk and little support needed, it deserves S rank. If a Pokemon doesn't need support and can function very effectively then it's probably broken.

Landorus-T has many counters, including itself, Gliscor, Ferrothorn, and even Mega Venusaur, it can manage around them by using them as U-turn bait and switch out to a Pokemon able to handle them, but it still needs support from those Pokemon to take down or at least weaken those Pokemon so it can fully function.

Mega Sableye cannot function effectively against a team with Fairies. It can manage around if it somehow manages to set up at least 2-3 CMs, but it still needs teammates like Jirachi, Scizor, and Excadrill to function completely and effectively. So it does need support.

Mega Lopunny still has counters like Slowbro, Landorus-T (Check), Mega Venusaur (defensive), Skarmory, Unaware Clefable, and even Quagsire if its Jolly. However, it can manage around its counters with support moves like PuP, Substitute, Heal Bell, Toxic, and Encore, which makes Lopunny needs less support, but it still needs it, Skarmory can still whirlwind after PuP, Slowbro can still have Heal Bell teammates, and so can Unaware Clefable can be running Heal Bell itself etc. ec., so it needs support to get around these stuff.

Mega Metagross needs the least support, hence why it's probably the best Pokemon in OU, since it can manage its counters depending on the combination of its coverage moves, but it still needs support, for example if running BP/PuP then you still need support to get around Slowbro and Mega Swampert, but if running GK then you need something to weaken Landorus-T, Skarmory, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, and Heatran since all of these Pokemon can severely hurt Mega Metagross.

If people remember Char Y and Char X were S rank sometime in XY era and they still needed a LOT of support because they needed hazard control. Moltres is S rank in RU and still suffers from this problem.

Keldeo is the same, it has some counters like Mega Altaria, Azumarill, Lati@s, Mega Venusaur and Slowbro, but it can still manage some of them with Scald burns and predictions with Specs/E-belt Icy Wind. With Scald burns it can also make it easier for its teammates to handle these threats, and less problematic. And it still needs some kind of support and possibly pursuit trappers.

I think people are exaggerating Keldeo's weaknesses and forgetting its extremely positive traits that could deem it S rank.
For one, Keldeo can easily decimate Balanced, especially the SubCM set.
It can also do tons of work against Stall. The SubCM set 6-0s m-venusaur/m-slowbro-less stall once Unaware Clefable and/or Tentacreul have been weakened, just by setting up 1-2 CMs it can decimate things like M-Sableye and Chansey.
Although 108 Speed is not as good, it's still very decent against HO and can still a lot of work. And don't forget the Scarf set that can decimate HO.

 

[Wargreymon]

This is what happens when i take a break and come back.

Well, might as well take your guys choice and leave for a few weeks so I "learn" the meta more (???) Even though im still the idiot i am now that i was 3 months ago (besides the point that i'm like a bit less stupid) so... bye?

Im taking your guys advice! I agree with you guys! I agree with you guys on everything! Doesnt that make you happy? It better.

Dude nobody said you need to go away, or that you have to agree with everything. Keldeo & Bisharp is clearly not a defensive core, so saying that Bisharp can't switch into Latios is a completely moot point. That's why people were arguing with you, not because they enjoy it. Also, stop calling yourself stupid or an idiot, you're not. You actually make good points on a lot of things.

 

[Ulevo]

For me, what makes Keldeo S Rank is 1: Scald, 2: it's ability to bluff, and how significantly that matters, and 3: it's hard to justify not using it given its consistency and assets that teams often require.

1: Pokemon battling is all about accruing an advantage once you have the advantage, or putting your opponent in a reactionary position. If your opponent is going to switch at the threat of what you have, what move do you use? The one that will faint what's in front of you? What will faint what they might bring in? Or a neutral move that will hit anything they have for moderate damage? The problem with Pokemon that run Choice Specs or Choice Scarf is that they run the risk of the switch-in entirely walling the move that becomes locked, which will cost that player the momentum they gained. Keldeo circumvents this because even if the Pokemon you swap in doesn't care about getting hit with a base 80 Water type move, it will care if it's burned. Pokemon like Venusaur, Ferrothorn, or Slowbro still hate burn status, and Pokemon like Azumarill or Gyarados run a big risk by switching in. Most Pokemon do not have this sort luxury while using a choice item unless they're using U-Turn, let alone with the amount of damage Keldeo has. Clicking Scald is almost never a bad decision, and it's very difficult for Keldeo to lose the player momentum because of this.

2: Games can be decided by whether or not the opponent can accurately predict if Keldeo is Choice Scarf or Choice Specs. If they don't, they often lose a Pokemon for free. Additionally, if they suspect either of the former and Keldeo is Substitute + Calm Mind, they can lose the game. Having to choose what to have burned while otherwise risking one Pokemon to faint or giving them a chance to set up is a very unfavorable position to be in, and it's very easy for the Keldeo player to bluff these situations given its speed tier.

3: It takes resisted damage from Stealth Rock, meaning it can come in more than other frail cleaners. It can fill the role of stall breaker, revenge killer, or as a primary win condition. Given these traits and the advantages it has, it is difficult to find a team that doesn't benefit from including Keldeo.

 

[yuruuu]

I'm going to nominate Poliwrath for C rank

Poliwrath has a good defensive typing in Water/Fighting, is immune to Water type attacks thanks to Water Absorb, and checks a large number of the tier, including but not limited to Bisharp, Crawdaunt, Mega-Gyarados, Keldeo, Landorus-T, Mega-Lopunny, Mega-Swampert, Scizor, Heatran, as well as both Rain and Sand offense. Both Kabutops and Excadrill+Tyranitar fall to Poliwrath. Set-up mons get phazed with Circle Throw.

It is a very niche mon, and only used on select stall teams, but I think it has enough bulk to justify a nomination to C rank.

I don't know how to do spoilers so I won't do calcs here, but Poliwrath does check the above, at least.

 

[Stef0w]

I'm going to nominate Poliwrath for C rank

Poliwrath has a good defensive typing in Water/Fighting, and checks a large number of the tier, including but not limited to Bisharp, Crawdaunt, Mega-Gyarados, Keldeo, Landorus-T, Mega-Lopunny, Mega-Swampert, Scizor, Heatran, as well as both Rain and Sand offense. Both Kabutops and Excadrill+Tyranitar fall to Poliwrath.

It is a very niche mon, and only used on select stall teams, but I think it has enough bulk to justify a nomination to C rank.

I don't know how to do spoilers so I won't do calcs here, but Poliwrath does check the above, at least.

Sounds pretty interesting, but looking at stats keldeo is just as bulky as poliwrath, bar 5 points in defense, so it's access to water absorb/Circle throw would have to be the things giving it a niche, while keldeo's greater offensive presence, access to secret sword, and great speed make keldeo a better choice.

 

[Adamantx]

Yeah, I agree with poliwrath not being ranked. The only potential niche I could see for it over keldeo is some belly drum swift swim set, but that seems really gimmicky. Keldeo could in theory be used in the same defensive matter that you would want to use poliwrath, having slightly less physical bulk but much more offensive presence. Water absorb and circle throw aren't really much of a niche.

 

[AM]

Yeah, I agree with poliwrath not being ranked. The only potential niche I could see for it over keldeo is some belly drum swift swim set, but that seems really gimmicky. Keldeo could in theory be used in the same defensive matter that you would want to use poliwrath, having slightly less physical bulk but much more offensive presence. Water absorb and circle throw aren't really much of a niche.

Poliwrath is used for phasing with Circle Throw to check Bisharp, Kabutops, Crawdaunt, a bit of rain offense, and general physical set up sweepers that can't break it. It's used on mostly hazard stacking balanced and stall builds. I don't have an opinion on its ranking but just want to address why you would use it cause in practice it does work alright. Belly Drum Poliwrath is garbage if you're using it in OU, that wouldn't be the reason it should be mentioned for a nom. Regardless rather not see it ranked. Lower ranks are already inflated with pure mediocrity even for the standards that the lower ranks are established as.

 

[Kurona]

I honestly think Scizor should move to B+. Despite of course being outclassed in every way by it's Mega Form, the support base Scizor can offer to other Megas through killing literally every fairy in the game is incredible. Things like Gallade, Gyarados, Slowbro and Lopunny really love those things out of the way and Banded Scizor cuts through them probably better than every other non-mega fairy check in the metagame. What I think really pushes it over, however, is an SD set.

Set

Scizor @ Life Orb
Adamant
208 HP/252 Atk/48 Spd
-Swords Dance
-Bullet Punch
-Roost/Iron Head
-Knock Off/Bug Bite

This set allows it to beat every fairy in the game; in fact OHKOing every single one with Bullet Punch - including max HP/Dfc Altaria! - aside from Unaware Clefable and a few Azumarill. Clefable doesn't do anything unless carrying Flamethrower/Fire Blast however, which is rare on the unaware sets, and Azumarill is admittedly the bigger problem here, but with SR all of them are taken care of easily aside from AV. Talking of Azu, the speed EVs are to outspeed 164 speed adamant Azu; the fastest the common sets go.
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 337-398 (84 - 99.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

This also allows Scizor to OHKO a ton of other common Pokémon, including but not limited to Lati@s - OHKOs bulky defog Latias with SR - T-tar, Gengar, Mega Gallade, and in general it's very hard to find something neutral to BP that isn't 2HKOed. Even the ones bulky enough to do so will not appreciate a Knock Off and most of the time can't outspeed.