Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[thesecondbest]

Chomp doesn't threaten shit with its Tank set while Clefable is actually dangerous with the ability to sweep slower teams. Also it can keep itself alive. Usage and splash-ability are good indicators of viability but not the end-all-be-all, otherwise Rotom-W and Lando-T would be S because they're super fucking splashable.

So clefable, which some have described as the definition of splashability, belongs in S, but not for that reason. You are saying it is dangerous? Try out stallbreaker mew; it can 6-0 slower teams as well, and it even beats clef 1 on 1. Doesn't that belong in S then?

 

[teamsnickers]

chiming in to say that there is literally no reason for clefable to move down and arguing on its behalf is a waste of time because the plebe's ideas mean nothing to us anyway


#viabilitygate

As oppose to when it was raised to s the meta was much more balanced now its much more offensive where clefable struggles, this really is not hard to understand. The viability rankings are meant to be accurate to the CURRENT meta... Klefki is getting strong support for a rank for how viable it is on offense teams since thats the large majority and most effective team of the meta,instead of saying lol there's no reason of it moving down explain yourself...plebs say nah lol.... games right now are won off of who has the most momentum and this is the first time that HO has been this dominate since deosharp,and clefable is pretty much useless on offense unless you like the pressure that you're trying to apply sapped away




-just a plebs opinion but lets try not to be elites assholes on here?

 

[Alfalfa]

As oppose to when it was raised to s the meta was much more balanced now its much more offensive where clefable struggles, this really is not hard to understand. The viability rankings are meant to be accurate to the CURRENT meta... Klefki is getting strong support for a rank for how viable it is on offense teams since thats the large majority and most effective team of the meta,instead of saying lol there's no reason of it moving down explain yourself...plebs say nah lol

Fat builds are still very prominent even with Hoopa-U around, and while the metagame is certainly getting more offensive, Clefable's usability has not changed much. It is still very easy to put on a team, has great overall utility, and its ability to blanket check half the meta is still quite useful. I never supported Clefable for S, but in no way is Clefable struggling.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

As oppose to when it was raised to s the meta was much more balanced now its much more offensive where clefable struggles, this really is not hard to understand. The viability rankings are meant to be accurate to the CURRENT meta... Klefki is getting strong support for a rank for how viable it is on offense teams since thats the large majority and most effective team of the meta,instead of saying lol there's no reason of it moving down explain yourself...plebs say nah lol.... games right now are won off of who has the most momentum and this is the first time that HO has been this dominate since deosharp,and clefable is pretty much useless on offense unless you like the pressure that you're trying to apply sapped away




-just a plebs opinion but lets try not to be elites assholes on here?

First off, this is not even close to the most offensive meta since DeoSharp. Many offensive metagames have come and gone since. If you wanna point to Hoopa, I can point to Mawile and how it did what Hoopa is now but to a far, far greater and overall more centralizing extent. Now, since offense is some huge threat right now, point to what on it is overwhelming Clefable, the mon that can come in on offensive staples right now such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, Garchomp, Weavile (if no Poison Jab, which, while very good, is not very used), Thundurus, and more and heal off only to pivot out. Clefable may have to check a large amount of threats, but that isnt so much of an issue for it due to its acceptable bulk (it has all it needs) and Magic Guard. Its not like you can really trap the thing with Pursuit like say, Mew (which isnt comparable to Clefable at all, i have no idea where that came from, even as someone who uses both to a great extent). This meta is nothing but kind to Clefable. Metagross, even Bisharp and Excadrill viability is somewhat on the decline, a new psychic has dropped making the tier's best poison type, Venusaur, less viable. Clefable can actually take on Hoopa sets lacking Gunk Shot (though I suppose Nasty Plot could blow through a Clefable but no one is using that fsr).

I'm not quite seeing the correlation between Offense being better and Clefable being worse. Or the claim that offense is the only thing going around at the minute. You can theorymon all you want about how Hoopa is making balance unseen, but first that has to be true, which it actually doesn't appear to be. Also thats assuming you're running balance. Clefable has a place in offense as a rocker that isnt a ground or steel type, while also having great moves such as Thunder Wave and Healing Wish to support its teammates, and handling premier offense-killers such as Lopunny, Weavile, and Manectric,


EDIT: I thought I might want to clear up that I don't mean Clefable on hyper offense but rather, offense in general. Sorta confusing, so thats my bad. I guess if you want to call it Bulky Offense, go ahead but that just seems like semantics to me then.

 

[bludz]

as a moderator in the OU room, a place where shit like tflame, rotom-w, and heatran get suggested as suspects, have you ever seen a single person ask for a clefable ban? I know i haven't, even though I've heard cries for the aforementioned, char x, malt, mlop, msab, and manaphy, all of which happen almost daily. Clefable being the best mon in ou is the most ridiculous thing I've heard in a while. As for the rest of your argument, I can't do calcs from phone, but does that spread not lose to mlop-something you kinda need to counter with clefable a good amount of the time? As far as clefable being a 5 slot mon with 0 counters, refer to my earlier post. It simply isn't anywhere near as dangerous as the other two S ranks. Finally, Clefable being some sort of godsend to balance isn't true at all as balance has plenty of options, and while it's often useful on stall, it's not exactly mandatory.

I'll get to other arguments when I'm not on phone, I just had to jump on the one with the most absurd opener

Yes I have seen people ask for a Clefable ban.

Nope that same spread allows Clef to avoid a 2HKO from M-Lop, non Specs Keld, non CM Lati, Mega Diancie, non NP Thundurus, non Iron Head Kyu-B, most LO Torn-T, LO Zam, Weavile, Specs Raikou, Mega Venu after a CM, and some other things. Yeah you can lose to a few of these things on 2 max rolls and the rest on a flinch or a crit or something. Yes it loses its ability to cover some set up sweepers like Manaphy without Unaware and doesn't account for as many super powerful wallbreakers with a mixed defensive spread.

It is not impossible to build balance in this metagame without Clefable. But really it's one of the best glues on it, one of the only answers to TG Mana, and is pretty customizable to team needs, with a wider variety of options than other common balance mons like Hippow and Mega Scizor. It is also one of balance's best ways to set up Stealth Rock against Mega Sableye which can be a real hassle for non offensive teams.

Maybe overall Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X are bigger threats in your typical sense, but if you don't consider Clefable really dangerous then I don't think I can convince you otherwise. It's the best non-Mega at least.

I'm not gonna say anything else on the matter because as Henry said, there's no point in arguing further. I only posted to defend my initial post because you called it ridiculous.

 

[p2]

idk why but a lot of arguments for dropping Clef seem to be mostly from theory and not practice. Clefable is among the most splashable mons in the tier for its ability to do literally anything it wants, it fits on nearly any possible team and if its CM, it snowballs insanely quickly, the only thing is, you're not even safe throwing your "counters" like Talonflame, Venusaur or Heatran at it because Twave completely ruins them and turns them into set up bait. It's also one of the best rockers in the tier, being able to consistently answer Weavile and Mega Lop for bulky offense teams (this is huge) and spread paralysis and pivot into powerful breakers like KyuB. Nearly nothing in the meta is capable of the shit Clefable consistently pulls off every single game. Yes we get it has shitty stats, but all of its amazing positives which compensate for those stats just seem to go completely ignored, especially its amazing typing that leaves it nearly impossible to OHKO with any unboosted neutral move and the amount of 2-3hkos it shrugs off as well is pretty fucking impressive.

 

[koista12]

As oppose to when it was raised to s the meta was much more balanced now its much more offensive where clefable struggles, this really is not hard to understand. The viability rankings are meant to be accurate to the CURRENT meta... Klefki is getting strong support for a rank for how viable it is on offense teams since thats the large majority and most effective team of the meta,instead of saying lol there's no reason of it moving down explain yourself...plebs say nah lol.... games right now are won off of who has the most momentum and this is the first time that HO has been this dominate since deosharp,and clefable is pretty much useless on offense unless you like the pressure that you're trying to apply sapped away




-just a plebs opinion but lets try not to be elites assholes on here?

I wouldn't exactly say clef is useless on offense. Its ability to break balance and stall is appreciated, and its t wave set is definitely not a momentum sap, especially in offense v offense scenarios.

I don't think clef should move down. Yeah offense is more popular, so what? Clef is still a great glue Mon that can be customized to avoid the 2HKO from a lot of offensive threats, and I'd even go so far to say that the t wave set is a direct response to the rise of offense.

 

[teamsnickers]

First off, this is not even close to the most offensive meta since DeoSharp. Many offensive metagames have come and gone since. If you wanna point to Hoopa, I can point to Mawile and how it did what Hoopa is now but to a far, far greater and overall more centralizing extent. Now, since offense is some huge threat right now, point to what on it is overwhelming Clefable, the mon that can come in on offensive staples right now such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, Garchomp, Weavile (if no Poison Jab, which, while very good, is not very used), Thundurus, and more and heal off only to pivot out. Clefable may have to check a large amount of threats, but that isnt so much of an issue for it due to its acceptable bulk (it has all it needs) and Magic Guard. Its not like you can really trap the thing with Pursuit like say, Mew (which isnt comparable to Clefable at all, i have no idea where that came from, even as someone who uses both to a great extent). This meta is nothing but kind to Clefable. Metagross, even Bisharp and Excadrill viability is somewhat on the decline, a new psychic has dropped making the tier's best poison type, Venusaur, less viable. Clefable can actually take on Hoopa sets lacking Gunk Shot (though I suppose Nasty Plot could blow through a Clefable but no one is using that fsr).

I'm not quite seeing the correlation between Offense being better and Clefable being worse. Or the claim that offense is the only thing going around at the minute. You can theorymon all you want about how Hoopa is making balance unseen, but first that has to be true, which it actually doesn't appear to be. Also thats assuming you're running balance. Clefable has a place in offense as a rocker that isnt a ground or steel type, while also having great moves such as Thunder Wave and Healing Wish to support its teammates, and handling premier offense-killers such as Lopunny, Weavile, and Manectric,

I dont disagree with you alot klefki but there's really no reason EVER to use clefable on hyper offense that I can think of... Excadrill is being used now more than ever with sand offense everywehere (also a bulky rapid spin set is a nice lure that's getting some more usage) Even before hoopa u wallbreakers are EVERYWHERE in the metagame right now and balanced builds have definitely decreased in viable (as I said before there's a reason klefki is just NOW going to hyper offense)also offense doesnt really focus on checks but mostly offensive synergy and forcing things out, to human mystery box any kind of offense needs momentum and clefable takes that away from your team (twave cripples sweeprs but doesnt help this clefable still gets forced out ALOT) This is the most offensive oras has ever been and if there was a time to move fable down than now is the time to do so, just like all the klefki noms for a in response to the meta change






Edit: still heard nothing on my azumarill for s nom so if this is going nowhere lets just move to that

 

[AM]

I guess a crowd control comment is what I'll call this.

Clefable isn't or shouldn't be used on Hyper Offense, as in an actual Hyper Offensive build not the presumed one people here are magically making up. You should be ashamed of yourself if you say or do this. Don't really care what your argument is on that but wtf ._.

Man these exaggerations for offense being dominant are ridiculous lol, let's tone it down and realize bulky offense and balance are still very consistent playstyles. Unless you live under a rock and think anything below a 100 base speed tier and above a 50 base speed tier constitutes a typical balanced build then I'm not exactly sure what to say other than good luck with Manaphy and a bunch of other stuff my friend. The tier is in no way even close to the offensive nature of the Deo days and saying that is evident that you haven't actually experienced that meta fully or understand what that comment even entails.

Ranking team decides what goes where, simple as that. It's not even being elitist, it's fully established in the OP that this is the case regardless. If they say sure, then sure. If they say no, then no. I might've been the guy running the thread most recently but I didn't just dictate the thread and put my own rankings without consulting and confirming as a team so I can get some good opinions on the matter.

To be perfectly frank, the entitlement here to have legitimate reasoning only goes so far and if they wanted to be total asses about it they don't have to explain anything other than a few sentences at best. I don't expect them to try and provide reasoning for every single thing cause it'll just get warped into some random logic that probably isn't even applicable, an overexaggeration of the flaws or subject on the matter. Lol the fact Henry even commented when he's one of the best rankers on the team, but this wouldn't be known cause looking from the outside in it's easy to give flack to these guys for their choices like some of mine in responses from the past, is a gift by itself.

So before this ends up being an inevitable shit storm where Flamer cheeses another 30+ likes to use some common sense and not fall under the social stigma of the OU forum, at the end of the day ranking team is the ones deciding it. If it's not moving, it's not moving. Move on.

 

[teamsnickers]

"Anyway im going to make a nom for azumarill to S. Azumarill is honestly just stupid right now... Its a complete monster against two VERY POPULAR types of teams rn,dual weather and hippo Azumarill surprise factor is just a pain in the ass to deal with, the threat of bdrum is always something to watch out for and insome cases you can be so wery of it that you let a mon die so it doesnt get the chance to set up,AV is another great lure to tank hits from thundurus mega manectric (even thou mega manectric could be volting out) and even things like tornadus t....VERY FEW THINGS can come in on azumarills 4 attack sets(aqua jet waterfall play rough and spower)(mega venusaur and amoonguss if it doesnt have ice punch....) and its water/fairy typing is just stupidly good.... While azumarills speed is terrible, it makes up for it with its superior defensive typing and priority.It can be forced out by things like serperior and other grass/electric types that outspeed it, but thats a minimal price to pay for the vast amount of things that lose to azumarill and its also one of the FEW answers to zard x in this meta.... Azumarill automatically gives your team a vast amount of momentum in most cases and is being vastly underrated in A+ rn" Made this nom before the clefable talk started..

 

[Dread Arceus]

I'm not a fan of dismissing arguments as heresay because somebody made a flawed argument, but out of respect for AM, I'll drop this.

Moving on to the Azu argument then, it seems like a pretty solid A+ mon. While it's pretty nasty to switch in to and playing guess-the-sets can be a bit painful, it's a tad limited in that it's not quite sure what to do with itself without one of those two. Belly Drum's HP requirement takes a nasty toll on Azu's bulk, and it can have a hard time setting up against faster, harder hitting teams. The Band set's only real flaw is being locked in to a physical move, which can be pretty inconvenient in the cases of AJ vs. PR/Waterfall/KO, and gives the player a bit of play. It's a pretty good mon and a pretty good sweeper, but I think its flaws are big enough that it shouldn't rise.

 

[Srn]

First off, this is not even close to the most offensive meta since DeoSharp. Many offensive metagames have come and gone since. If you wanna point to Hoopa, I can point to Mawile and how it did what Hoopa is now but to a far, far greater and overall more centralizing extent. Now, since offense is some huge threat right now, point to what on it is overwhelming Clefable, the mon that can come in on offensive staples right now such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, Garchomp, Weavile (if no Poison Jab, which, while very good, is not very used), Thundurus, and more and heal off only to pivot out. Clefable may have to check a large amount of threats, but that isnt so much of an issue for it due to its acceptable bulk (it has all it needs) and Magic Guard. Its not like you can really trap the thing with Pursuit like say, Mew (which isnt comparable to Clefable at all, i have no idea where that came from, even as someone who uses both to a great extent). This meta is nothing but kind to Clefable. Metagross, even Bisharp and Excadrill viability is somewhat on the decline, a new psychic has dropped making the tier's best poison type, Venusaur, less viable. Clefable can actually take on Hoopa sets lacking Gunk Shot (though I suppose Nasty Plot could blow through a Clefable but no one is using that fsr).

I'm not quite seeing the correlation between Offense being better and Clefable being worse. Or the claim that offense is the only thing going around at the minute. You can theorymon all you want about how Hoopa is making balance unseen, but first that has to be true, which it actually doesn't appear to be. Also thats assuming you're running balance. Clefable has a place in offense as a rocker that isnt a ground or steel type, while also having great moves such as Thunder Wave and Healing Wish to support its teammates, and handling premier offense-killers such as Lopunny, Weavile, and Manectric,


EDIT: I thought I might want to clear up that I don't mean Clefable on hyper offense but rather, offense in general. Sorta confusing, so thats my bad. I guess if you want to call it Bulky Offense, go ahead but that just seems like semantics to me then.

Just one thing i wanted to point out about this post.
Mawile did not do the same thing hoopa is doing to the meta.
Hoopa discourages slower builds right now, which is making offense a little more prominent.
Mawile was good against every playstyle, it had the powerful sucker punch to destroy offense and play rough to blow up slow shit. So it didn't really discourage any kind of specific build like hoopa does.
Hoopa only blows up slow shit. And it does not need gunk shot to blow up clefable btw
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 220-259 (55.8 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Regarding azu to S, well, at a time i once thought of this as a decent call but you have to remember that this thing is 50 base speed. Yes, its bulky and powerful, and its stabs are freaking awesome, and BD is solid against every playstyle, but its speed rly secures its spot in A+, ensuring it won't go higher.
It's basically just worn down pretty quickly. It ends up being in charge of checking so much shit that it gets kinda easy to overwhelm, and electric is a very common and good type to throw around. Maybe it's not a rock solid argument but I find it's just not as good in practice as it looks on paper :I

 

[Ary]

"Anyway im going to make a nom for azumarill to S. Azumarill is honestly just stupid right now... Its a complete monster against two VERY POPULAR types of teams rn,dual weather and hippo Azumarill surprise factor is just a pain in the ass to deal with, the threat of bdrum is always something to watch out for and insome cases you can be so wery of it that you let a mon die so it doesnt get the chance to set up,AV is another great lure to tank hits from thundurus mega manectric (even thou mega manectric could be volting out) and even things like tornadus t....VERY FEW THINGS can come in on azumarills 4 attack sets(aqua jet waterfall play rough and spower)(mega venusaur and amoonguss if it doesnt have ice punch....) and its water/fairy typing is just stupidly good.... While azumarills speed is terrible, it makes up for it with its superior defensive typing and priority.It can be forced out by things like serperior and other grass/electric types that outspeed it, but thats a minimal price to pay for the vast amount of things that lose to azumarill and its also one of the FEW answers to zard x in this meta.... Azumarill automatically gives your team a vast amount of momentum in most cases and is being vastly underrated in A+ rn" Made this nom before the clefable talk started..

You're overselling everything about this mon. Saying it beats a team with 2 weaknesses to azu minimum and hippowdon isn't telling me anything about it's viability other than it's effectiveness in a mu which isn't as common as your purporting it to be and a pokemon it has a type advantage over. Av takes one hit from anything, does some dmg back and then the next thing that comes in takes 20% from a jet and revenges you. Bd's purpose is to clean and in an optimal situation azu comes in on something that is critical to your opponent's success that is forced out by the threat of a jet ko which then allows you to hit bd on the switch and kill everything to death w/ ajet, but the problem is that in reality most of the time you're taking a hit before you get the chance to bd, now you're stuck with a +6 azu hovering around 30% that is liable to priority or anything that can take a jet and has more speed. The set that puts azu firmly in a+ is band. The problems of it being a choice item are obvious, azu's effectiveness now depends on you pressing a move and hoping your opponent didn't press the pokemon that takes that move. Not to say and azu isn't frightening or incredibly powerful, you're just talking it up into something it isnt.

 

[MikeDawg]

Why is Milotic not ranked :( I had assumed that it was at least in D-Rank. It didn't even make the cut for E.

In any case, Milotic -> C- or C

This is one of those cute forgotten treasures. Milotic has a very clear niche, and that is as a Mirror Coat user (marvel scale is pretty nice too).

Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Mirror Coat
- Recover
- Ice Beam / Dragon Tail / Toxic / Haze


Even without Spdef investment, it is crazy bulky on both sides. For reference:

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 307-361 (78.1 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 242-288 (61.5 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 286-337 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 246-290 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


The important thing to realize is that there are very few physical moves that are supereffective against milotic in ou. Breloom, Kyurem, and Victini are the only ones. This frequently puts the opponent in a check-mate sort of position where, even if they know you carry mirror coat, they have no real way to break you without a special move (and losing a mon in the process). This is especially true if you run dragon tail to prevent setup at the same time (though clefable makes a lovely partner if you choose to forego it. This also helps make up for milotic's lack of a fighting resistance in comparison to slowbro). Further discouraging physical moves is the obvious scald and, more uniquely, Marvel Scale. When Milotic is statused, her defense is boosted to almost that of a Mega Slowbro without a +def nature.

For reference:

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 192-226 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
0 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 236-278 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 204-252 (51.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
0 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 196-232 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Hoopa-U Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 118-139 (30 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage


Aside from that, Milotic functions as a typical bulky water with above-average special attack. Its competition in this role (edit: role meaning a mirror-coat-bulky-water) is Alomomola, but Milotic is bulkier and much harder to set up on (especially with dragon tail). Alomomola can't damage anything, and it's a liability in this meta. If Alomomola is C+, then milotic certainly deserves a place in the C's. Also, Alomomola C+ -> C- or D for reasons listed. Not to mention that Clefable and Chansey are everywhere, meaning that wish support isn't as valuable of a niche as it was before.

Here is an obligatory replay that I pulled real quick. You can see both the checkmate situation that I described as well as how lovely marvel scale can be (in fact, both of these caused my opponent to forfeit). He has three electric types, but since none of them even come close to KO-ing, there is no way to come out without losing a mon or more. Something like Rotom-W isn't free to sit in milotic like it can against, say, slowbro, because milotic will KO a mon on the volt switch, statusing it only boosts it's defense, and every passed turn is an opportunity to scald burn.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-256117302

 

[Flamer]

I guess a crowd control comment is what I'll call this.

Clefable isn't or shouldn't be used on Hyper Offense, as in an actual Hyper Offensive build not the presumed one people here are magically making up. You should be ashamed of yourself if you say or do this. Don't really care what your argument is on that but wtf ._.

Man these exaggerations for offense being dominant are ridiculous lol, let's tone it down and realize bulky offense and balance are still very consistent playstyles. Unless you live under a rock and think anything below a 100 base speed tier and above a 50 base speed tier constitutes a typical balanced build then I'm not exactly sure what to say other than good luck with Manaphy and a bunch of other stuff my friend. The tier is in no way even close to the offensive nature of the Deo days and saying that is evident that you haven't actually experienced that meta fully or understand what that comment even entails.

Ranking team decides what goes where, simple as that. It's not even being elitist, it's fully established in the OP that this is the case regardless. If they say sure, then sure. If they say no, then no. I might've been the guy running the thread most recently but I didn't just dictate the thread and put my own rankings without consulting and confirming as a team so I can get some good opinions on the matter.

To be perfectly frank, the entitlement here to have legitimate reasoning only goes so far and if they wanted to be total asses about it they don't have to explain anything other than a few sentences at best. I don't expect them to try and provide reasoning for every single thing cause it'll just get warped into some random logic that probably isn't even applicable, an overexaggeration of the flaws or subject on the matter. Lol the fact Henry even commented when he's one of the best rankers on the team, but this wouldn't be known cause looking from the outside in it's easy to give flack to these guys for their choices like some of mine in responses from the past, is a gift by itself.

So before this ends up being an inevitable shit storm where Flamer cheeses another 30+ likes to use some common sense and not fall under the social stigma of the OU forum, at the end of the day ranking team is the ones deciding it. If it's not moving, it's not moving. Move on.

I like to think of it as keeping the peace

 

[Empress]

Why is Milotic not ranked :( I had assumed that it was at least in D-Rank. It didn't even make the cut for E.

In any case, Milotic -> C- or C

This is one of those cute forgotten treasures. Milotic has a very clear niche, and that is as a Mirror Coat user (marvel scale is pretty nice too).

Milotic @ Leftovers
Ability: Marvel Scale
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Mirror Coat
- Recover
- Ice Beam / Dragon Tail / Toxic / Haze


Even without Spdef investment, it is crazy bulky on both sides. For reference:

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 307-361 (78.1 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 242-288 (61.5 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 286-337 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 246-290 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


The important thing to realize is that there are very few physical moves that are supereffective against milotic in ou. Breloom, Kyurem, and Victini are the only ones. This frequently puts the opponent in a check-mate sort of position where, even if they know you carry mirror coat, they have no real way to break you without a special move (and losing a mon in the process). This is especially true if you run dragon tail to prevent setup at the same time (though clefable makes a lovely partner if you choose to forego it. This also helps make up for milotic's lack of a fighting resistance in comparison to slowbro). Further discouraging physical moves is the obvious scald and, more uniquely, Marvel Scale. When Milotic is statused, her defense is boosted to almost that of a Mega Slowbro without a +def nature.

For reference:

+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 192-226 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
0 SpA Milotic Scald vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 236-278 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 204-252 (51.9 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage
0 SpA Milotic Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 196-232 (75 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Hoopa-U Hyperspace Fury vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Marvel Scale Milotic: 118-139 (30 - 35.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery and burn damage


Aside from that, Milotic functions as a typical bulky water with above-average special attack. Its competition in this role is Alomomola, but Milotic is bulkier and much harder to set up on (especially with dragon tail). Alomomola can't damage anything, and it's a liability in this meta. If Alomomola is C+, then milotic certainly deserves a place in the C's. Also, Alomomola C+ -> C- or D for reasons listed. Not to mention that Clefable and Chansey are everywhere, meaning that wish support isn't as valuable of a niche as it was before.

Here is an obligatory replay that I pulled real quick. You can see both the checkmate situation that I described as well as how lovely marvel scale can be (in fact, both of these caused my opponent to forfeit). He has three electric types, but since none of them even come close to KO-ing, there is no way to come out without losing a mon or more. Something like Rotom-W isn't free to sit in milotic like it can against, say, slowbro, because milotic will KO a mon on the volt switch, statusing it only boosts it's defense, and every passed turn is an opportunity to scald burn.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-256117302

No, Milotic does not outclass Alomomola. Mola's niche lies in the combination of Wish + Regenerator, allowing it to keep itself and its teammates alive. Milotic is a pure tank, while Alomomola is a wall and a cleric. While they're both bulky Water-types, they do different things. In terms of being a Wish passer, though Mola is more passive than Clef and less bulky than Chansey, Wish + Regenerator is something that the pink blobs can only dream of having. Also, though you do show Milotic's bulk when it has a status problem, how is it getting statused in the first place? While you can use it as a status absorber, you can't just assume that it's always going to have Marvel Scale activated at the right time.

As for Mirror Coat, unlike something like Counter Skarm, which repeatedly punishes physical attackers, it appears you're using Mirror Coat Milotic as a single-use, one-for-one sacrifice, which is "a strategy that can bear no fruit." It also needs to be at high health in order to take those hits. Admittedly, that isn't unreasonable considering its bulk and access to Recover, but considering the beating that it'll be taking from Serp and Thundurus (as shown in your calcs), it almost needs a free switch.

(A little tired now so I'm kinda scrambling to get my thoughts down :P)

 

[Lord Xen III]

The main problem with clefable that i see is its mediocre stats. Across the board you have a mon thats pretty slow, doesn't hit that hard immediately, and its bulk is good enough to tank some medium grade attacks, but it still has more to be desired as it can fold pretty easily to strong neutral attacks. However the fairy typing is great defensively so it offsets that , and in addition clefable has reliable recovery and CM can boost its average spdef to high levels. But the thing that makes clefable worthy of S is that its a defensive mon that can quickly bolster some offensive presence while having high longetitivity and unreliable checks. Magic guard is a pretty darn big selling point, because when you put that on a mon that can hold leftiez and has reliable recovery, you arent wearing it down passively , at all. Being immune to hazards is pretty insane since the meta pretty much revolves around them, and clefable is pretty much low risk when it comes to switching into stuff repeatedly. So naturally because of this its a huge problem to slower teams, since those rely more on passive damage. Sure , clefable has checks on these teams but they arent all that reliable for a few simple reasons. Remember that one of clefable's problem's is speed, its speed leaves it susceptible to taunt users and and alot of its checks are then able to overwhelm it. But the problem is clefable owns a move called thunder wave, which you know, lowers the speed of an opposing pokemon to the point where clefable can now outspeed it , and thats when clefable is much more of a threat when you combine that with the fact that many of its checks are not strong enough to break it once it gets to plus one in special defense.

252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. +1 252 HP / 96+ SpD Clefable: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery All of a sudden mega venu is no longer a reliable check, especially if clefable t waved it on a prior turn. So now it switches into clef as it calm minds, and thanks to t wave reducing mega venus speed , clefable can CM on it again, and at that point you need to crit to beat it.

Heatran suffers a similair fate: 252 SpA Heatran Flash Cannon vs. +1 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery.

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable in Sun: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Other thinks like Talon flame , Gengar, and Metagross definitely pressure it,but they all dont really appreciate a t wave. So what it comes down to is that clefable's worst matchup in theory is against HO, where enough offensive pressure is applied on clefable because of its low speed and mediocre bulk . But its not so cut and dry in practice when you realize the amount of things it checks on standard HO teams. This is a decent electric check, mega lopunny check, a lati check, a garchomp check, a keldeo check... Then the HO checks to it like metagross definitely pressure it of they get a free turn, but otherwise you can't really send those mons in on a t wave. As such t wave is a pretty big move for clefable as its able to pressure alot more than it otherwise wouldnt be able to and makes it way better than alot of the A+ mons. Anything that wave doesn't pressure is pressured heavily by flamethrower such as Ferrothorn and Scizor. I have a feeling someone will bring up the whole thing that Clefable can't fit CM flamethrower wave Softboiled and Moonblast on the same set. I mean, every mon wants to be able to run more than 4 moves, some mons fit more prowess into 4 moveslots than others. But then something like Zard x which more than deserves S is also able to pressure all its checks and counters, but it also cant fit dragon dance SD roost EQ flare blitz. outrage and claw on the same set either. The point being that Clefable's moveslots are pretty effective with the current combinations of 4 to the point where i think it does deserve S. Clefable is a mon that fits the mold for S that i stated earlier. IT pressures all 3 play styles, its counterplay isn't that big, it brings huge support and glue to its team, and it's got pretty situational checks. It truly has a full package. The only thing left is whether or not you think its on the same level as zard x and Mega Altaria. The problem is that those mons are more immediately threatening to HO than Clefable is because as good as thunder wave is its still a passive move, as in it doesn't deal direct damage. So it takes Clefable a little longer to build itself up as a threat since it does need some more free turns to setup CM, But i feel as though this is offset by the fact at you cant really wear it down with HO hazards so its still coming in unpunished, and its bulk and typing means its not really easy to one shot and it will be sticking around a while thanks to its once again reliable recovery.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Garchomp isn't S because of just its SD set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and two amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Heatran isn't S because of just its Specs set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and an amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

I'm not its biggest fan, but Landorus-T isn't S because of just its double dance set. It's not a sweeper, for the most part. It's one of the most solid support pokemon in the tier with a decent offensive presence. Its a mon with a great typing, vast movepool, decent stats, and an amazing abilities which allow it to be very unpredictable and fit on most teams. Dropping it seems like a mistake to me.

Are you catching my drift here? What makes Clefable so special over the other A+ ranks? It has utility, but not an unprecedented amount. It has a sweeping set, but it's not the best. Its abilities and typing are pretty nice, but that's everything in A+ rank bar Keldeo and Hoopa-U. I just don't see how it stands out amongst other mons, and it looks pretty ridiculous, especially when it's sitting in the same rank as a mon that would flat outclass it it if it had SR.

I mean i can understand this much, but like the comparison here is not really the best because Garchomp and Lando t were also both S in previous metas and have traits that in the right meta can easily make them S. But the problem with them in the current meta is that their support roles are limited by lack of reliable recovery. It's not as much as a problem for lando t because its immune to spikes, but clefable has the full package of not caring about any hazards, status, and still has reliable recovery... so it makes it better than them. Heatran is another solid utility mon, but again: bodied by hazards, no reliable recovery.

 

[MikeDawg]

No, Milotic does not outclass Alomomola. Mola's niche lies in the combination of Wish + Regenerator, allowing it to keep itself and its teammates alive. Milotic is a pure tank, while Alomomola is a wall and a cleric. While they're both bulky Water-types, they do different things. In terms of being a Wish passer, though Mola is more passive than Clef and less bulky than Chansey, Wish + Regenerator is something that the pink blobs can only dream of having. Also, though you do show Milotic's bulk when it has a status problem, how is it getting statused in the first place? While you can use it as a status absorber, you can't just assume that it's always going to have Marvel Scale activated at the right time.

As for Mirror Coat, unlike something like Counter Skarm, which repeatedly punishes physical attackers, it appears you're using Mirror Coat Milotic as a single-use, one-for-one sacrifice, which is "a strategy that can bear no fruit." It also needs to be at high health in order to take those hits. Admittedly, that isn't unreasonable considering its bulk and access to Recover, but considering the beating that it'll be taking from Serp and Thundurus (as shown in your calcs), it almost needs a free switch.

(A little tired now so I'm kinda scrambling to get my thoughts down :P)

I don't recall ever saying anything about milotic outclassing alomomola outside of mirror coating (ie. probably the only viable alomomola set)? However, I do recall making a post about milotic rising. I also recall saying that alomomola should drop.

Counter skarm cannot punish physical attackers anymore than milotic can special. What physical mon is attacking skarm if it can't 2hko to begin with?

I made sure to note that marvel scale is nice (it was even in parenthesis so that it would be a clear sidenote), but just an addition. I also made sure to note how it helps corner the opponent, as statusing it has consequences.

I also made sure to note that those calcs were "for reference", as in "here are some of the strongest moves that milotic will have to take in a last-ditch situation". Just like skarm, any attack can be reciprocated.

Milotic has plenty of opportunity to heal up against balanced teams (for example, the replay that I convienently included). Other examples include ferrothorn, chansey, skarm, starmie... pretty much any defensive mon that is slower or relatively weak gives milotic the ability to heal up after taking even a strong se hit.

 

[Anduril]

My main issue with Milotic is that it really doesn't offer much over the multitude of bulky waters in OU. Alomomola can WishPass and heal itself, Slowbro can Calm Mind up, Twave things, and has Regen, hell, if you are looking for a pure tank use AV Slowking. Milotic really doesn't offer that much more over those mons. I guess it can take a few hits, but it really doesn't have a definable niche in OU. I could see it in E rank, but C- is even pushing it.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

..you know, if I really wanted to use a Mirror Coat user...

...I'd rather use this thing. Not only because it sports higher physical bulk, but access to Shadow Tag means you can trap and remove Choice Scarf users or any mon who can't 2HKO you. GUARANTEED. You can also use Custap Berry + Destiny Bond to remove a 2nd threat to your team. Or you can use Encore to transform your opponent into setup fodder. And btw Milotic doesn't get Counter.
Yes, you can say that Milotic has reliable recovery, but honestly Shadow Tag more than makes up for it, as by the time you bring in a mon to deal with Wobb, such as Weavile, it has already done its job. Leave Milo unranked.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

-just a plebs opinion but lets try not to be elites assholes on here?

And I thought the people making some questionable noms were assholes.

I mean, if the ranking is entirely at the discretion of the council, what's the point in this thread? If our opinions don't matter and yours significantly does despite being, "Lolno", what is the point of this thread? To nominate things to see if the all mighty ranking council agrees? Don't get me wrong, most of you are okay people, but come on now. We have very well thought out reasoning behind our statements. This isn't a "Talonflame for S+ because Brave Bird" nomination. But I digress I suppose, because I have to.

So, before this Clefable debacle there was a Mega Aerodactyl nomination. I want to back that. Its speed is absolutely amazing for OU right now with 110 being a great benchmark and Mega Lopunny's and Mega Man's 135 being fast as shit. It hits relatively hard, and as I stated that speed is amazing. It also can run a pretty nifty hazard control role with defog, but sadly much like most defoggers, it's weak to rocks. Seriously though, its typing is great, its offenses are pretty sick as well. Outspeeding and killing Mega Lopunny is a great feat in this meta, not only that it kills fat flying types, keldeo's bitch ass, it also checks a lot of Pokemon that usually set up to +1 since it outspeeds a good chunk of the Dragon Dancers in the tier right now. I understand why it wouldn't move up since its Physical offense is pretty lackluster as well as its atrocious movepool. But the speed is very notable and Tough Claws helps out with its disturbingly underwhelming movepool. Perhaps it's just my love for Mega Aerodactyl but I can honestly agree with Mega Aerodactyl moving up to A.

 

[MikeDawg]

And I thought the people making some questionable noms were assholes.

I mean, if the ranking is entirely at the discretion of the council, what's the point in this thread? If our opinions don't matter and yours significantly does despite being, "Lolno", what is the point of this thread? To nominate things to see if the all mighty ranking council agrees? Don't get me wrong, most of you are okay people, but come on now. We have very well thought out reasoning behind our statements. This isn't a "Talonflame for S+" nomination. But I digress because I have to I suppose.

So, before this Clefable debacle there was a Mega Aerodactyl nomination. I want to back that. Its speed is absolutely amazing for OU right now with 110 being a great benchmark and 135 being fast as shit. It hits relatively hard, and as I stated that speed is amazing. It also can run a pretty nifty hazard control role with defog, but sadly much like most defoggers, it's weak to rocks. Seriously though, its typing is great, its offenses are pretty sick as well. Outspeeding and killing Mega Lopunny is a great feat in this meta, not only that it kills fat flying types, keldeo's bitch ass, it also checks a lot of Pokemon that usually set up to +1 since it outspeeds a good chunk of the Dragon Dancers in the tier right now. I understand why it wouldn't move up since it its Physical offense is pretty lack luster as well as its atrocious movepool. But the speed is very notable and Tough Claws helps out with its disturbingly underwhelming movepool. Perhaps it's just my love for Mega Aerodactyl but I can honestly agree with Mega Aerodactyl moving up to A.

Don't take it as "you have no input". It's more like " your input wasn't good enough".

Yes, the decision is executed by the council, but this thread gives you the ability to participate in that discussion. If you argue well, chances are that it will happen, because they are good players and relatively logical people. Good reasoning is good reasoning. If you are either technically incorrect or simply off-base logic-wise (again, 90% of the posts in this thread are just listing good and bad traits instead of arguing why they should move from the place that was previously decided is best for them), that change probably won't happen.

The viability thread has not become a dictatorship; I can assure you of that lol

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Don't take it as "you have no input". It's more like " your input wasn't good enough".

Yes, the decision is executed by the council, but this thread gives you the ability to participate in that discussion. If you argue well, chances are that it will happen, because they are good players and relatively logical people. If you are either technically wrong or simply off-base logic-wise (again, 90% of the posts in this thread are just listing good and bad traits instead of arguing why they should move from the place that was previously decided is best for them), that change probably won't happen.

The viability thread has not become a dictatorship; I can assure you of that lol

Alright, that's fine, I don't believe it to be a dictatorship, don't get me wrong, but instead of just shooting down the "argument" with a "it's not moving plebe" explain to us why our logic is flawed. We explained that there have been some recent inclusions that make clefables staying power a little less appealing like it used to be. It's still a great 'mon, we're not saying it should drop to E and never be spoken of again. But I at least would like to know where our logic is flawed instead of just being dismissed because it's a differing opinion.
I'm sure a sarcastic reply will ensue, but perhaps when they do write out their witty like bait, I'll get an answer as to why our opinions on the matter are "wrong" or "off-base".

So, about that Mega Aerodactyl nom. . .

 

[Punchshroom]

So, before this Clefable debacle there was a Mega Aerodactyl nomination. I want to back that. Its speed is absolutely amazing for OU right now with 110 being a great benchmark and 135 being fast as shit.

Just want to point out how you got both of the Speed stats wrong; Aero has 130 Speed while Mega Aero has 150. You probably confused them with Aero's Attack stats and even then regular Aero has 105 Atk.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Just want to point out how you got both of the Speed stats wrong; Aero has 130 Speed while Mega Aero has 150. You probably confused them with Aero's Attack stats and even then regular Aero has 105 Atk.

No, I was referring to Mega Lopunny's base 135 speed. Should have elaborated on that. My apologies.

EDIT: Fixed.