Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[NinetyNineNo]

Alright, I want to hang the disclaimer that the mon I'm nomming is one I really love, so there MAY be a biased to consider.

Tyrantrum to C+

Now, I love Tyrantrum for his Choice Band set. Head Smash can basically barrel through any core without a decently bulky resist with some help from SR.
252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

That said, his speed, mediocre Special Bulk, and lackluster defensive typing make him extremely susceptible to revenge kills, his speed barely above Bisharp's and leaving him outpaced by a lot of stuff even on Balance teams. Choice Scarf sacrifices significant power, and Dragon Dance sets have a very hard time trying to set up.

Now, these were all issues before, but one thing that has changed I think compounds these issues: Hoopa's entrance into the meta game.

Hoopa gives Tyrantrum heavy competition for the Mega Slot, possessing a better (even if not necessarily good) defensive typing, a better Speed tier (outpacing Heatran and being able to tie with Base 80's is certainly valuable), phenomenal coverage, and mixed potential in exchange for going from ludicrous power to just extreme power. Now, Tyrantrum certainly had competition as a Wallbreaker even before, but Hoopa's presence coincides with/accelerated a metagame shift to more offensive teams, whether teams becoming full out offense or just leaning more towards it in balance. Tyrantrum does not fare well against offensive teams for the reasons I noted above, so until/unless the metagame shifts defensively again (unlikely in the near future with Zard-X, Manaphy, and Hoopa-U occupying the upper ranks), I feel he's more in line with wallbreakers like Staraptor, whose absurd power and offensive option can do some teams good, but usually is going to need support more than he will support anything in his role, compared to Toxicroak, who can soft check a lot of Water/Rain mons and has Sucker Punch alongside STABs to help check/revenge things like Gengar, the Latis, Keldeo, Azumarill, and LO/Mega Alakazam on offense, while also being good against typical members of a Steel-Fairy-Dragon Core such as Clefable, Altaria, Heatran, and some others depending on what he carries for a 4th Move.

In retrospect, I'm also a fan of what Toxicroak can offer a team, but I think Tyrantrum is more likely to drop than he is to rise.
Tyrantrum to C+, Toxicroak to B (?)

Even if neither of these take, they're two somewhat lower ranked mons I think could spark some discussion.

Couple nitpicks. For one, that first calc is against a Mega Slowbro, so it should look like this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Mega Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Against regular Slowbro, it's more like:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's a small thing, but you seem to be underselling it a bit -- Band Tyrantrum's Head Smash is, last time I checked, the fourth strongest move in the tier, after Mega Glalie's Refrigerate Explosion, Mega Medicham's High Jump Kick and Band Victini's V-Create, all of which you'll note have huge opportunity costs. With Tyrantrum, though, he has none bar Head Smash's shaky accuracy -- get him in, which isn't as hard as you're making it out to be, and something dies. I'm serious: Tyrantrum's Head Smash gives you three options. If it's Rock-resistant and physically bulky, it gets 3HKO'd. If it's either of those, 2HKO'd. None, and it dies -- seriously, no exceptions. Additionally, its physical bulk is quite good -- you'll never invest in it, but it can allow it to live some surprise hits in a 1v1 or to finish off a 2HKO, which no-one expects because no-one uses it. It can live stuff like CM Keldeo's Secret Sword, Scarf Excadrill's Iron Head, and SD Mega Scizor's Bullet Punch and murder them in return. And to top it off, a ton of things that can live a Head Smash get destroyed by Banded Outrage, which is a risky move but when the payoff is a OHKO, hey, I'm not complaining.

Now, I'm not trying to make it out to be some god of a Pokemon. The flaws you listed (middling speed that only lets it surpass defensive mons, dies to a sneeze as long as it's special, mediocre defensive typing) are quite valid. However, I think that they by no means surpass its virtues and so Tyrantrum does not deserve a drop. You want a cost-free nuke, look no further.

(Also, I believe you meant competition for a wallbreaker? Hoopa-U is probably the best wallbreaker in the tier right now, true, but they don't fill the same niches and it shouldn't affect Tyrantrum's placement in the same vein that Kyurem-B shouldn't drop, either.)

 

[Slayerblade]

Nominating Tangrowth B- -> B. This thing is actually really good and pretty anti meta right now. Assault Vest checks half of OU and is really difficult to kill. Excadrill, Hippowdown, Keldeo, Mega Gyarados, non Bounce Gyarados, Landorus-T, Mega Lopunny, Thundurus, Starmie, Rotom-W, Slowbro, Breloom, are all checked or stopped cold by this thing. Even mons with SE STAB movies like Weavile lose to this guy 1v1.

Also it's not passive at all with Leaf Storm off of 125 special attack hitting like a mini nuke. It's movepool is quite good and most of it's usual counters like Heatran, Charizard, Talonflame, Tornados, and Gengar - can be nailed with appropriate coverage movies like Earthquake, Rock Slide and Knock Off respectively.

 

[branflakes]

At what point do we stop accounting stall as a viable playstyle anymore? Because in the current metagame you have two pokemon that will 100% of the time, unless you make crazy, irrational doubles eradicate stall. I can see moving a lot of shit up because of stall is basically non existent at this point. Do all of you collectively agree that stall isn't meant to be? Because a lot of us enjoy it... Really, in a perfect world I'd see gothitelle gone and Hoopa gone. Yes, stall isn't existent and that's why Hoopa isn't S but don't you ever realise that the REASON stall isn't existent is because of Hoopa and Gothitelle?

EDIT: I don't want to this to be scoffed off and die out... If you have something to say, please take a little time out to address your opinion.

This has me scratching my head. Both full stall and semi stall have been pretty dominant at the top of the OU ladder for quite a while, and I thought it was general knowledge that stall can be crazy good in the current meta. If you're referring specifically to passive full stall, then yeah -- it is a bit less viable than semi-stall as a playstyle IMO. But semi-stall being amazing right now doesn't support your point. I could just be misinterpreting your argument, but right now it seems like you're saying that most stall-breakers/wall-breakers flat out 6-0 stall teams. In reality, only a select few wall/stallbreakers can actually break through a well-built stall team with consistency.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

This has me scratching my head. Both full stall and semi stall have been pretty dominant at the top of the OU ladder for quite a while, and I thought it was general knowledge that stall can be crazy good in the current meta. If you're referring specifically to passive full stall, then yeah -- it is a bit less viable than semi-stall as a playstyle IMO. But semi-stall being amazing right now doesn't support your point. I could just be misinterpreting your argument, but right now it seems like you're saying that most stall-breakers/wall-breakers flat out 6-0 stall teams. In reality, only a select few wall/stallbreakers can actually break through a well-built stall team with consistency.

Sorry, I don't play the OU ladder actively enough to experience those battles, mind showing me some replays?
And I'd like to see how those teams, or any stall team handles Hoopa/Gothitelle. I can't think of a single pokemon that can 2HKO everything with one set, except Hoopa in OU

 

[pika pal]

That's a typo for sure; do you mean that Hoopa-U gives it heavy competition as a wallbreaker?

Indeed, went back and edited.

Couple nitpicks. For one, that first calc is against a Mega Slowbro, so it should look like this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Mega Slowbro: 181-214 (45.9 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


Now, I'm not trying to make it out to be some god of a Pokemon. The flaws you listed (middling speed that only lets it surpass defensive mons, dies to a sneeze as long as it's special, mediocre defensive typing) are quite valid. However, I think that they by no means surpass its virtues and so Tyrantrum does not deserve a drop. You want a cost-free nuke, look no further.

(Also, I believe you meant competition for a wallbreaker? Hoopa-U is probably the best wallbreaker in the tier right now, true, but they don't fill the same niches and it shouldn't affect Tyrantrum's placement in the same vein that Kyurem-B shouldn't drop, either.)

The calculator I chose didn't have a Mega Slowbro set in it, so I just put Mega's stats in for Slowbro's bulk. And the Mega Slot thing was a typo on my part.

I don't quite feel like Hoopa-U, who I used for comparison, has any more cost really than Tyrantrum does. And Tyrantrum's Physical Bulk gets it about as far as Hoopa-U's Special Bulk gets it, which is why I didn't mention the latter too much in the comparison.

I think the one other issue with Tyrantrum defensively is that its typing conflicts with the part of its bulk that's actually sufficient, due to Fighting, Steel, and Ground moves generally being Physical. Two of those are also fairly common weaknesses, so Tyrantrum compounds weaknesses very often, compared to Hoopa not offering defensive synergy, but not really taking too much from it either.

Kyurem-B also offers a bit over Hoopa, having some bulk and, in spit of its typing, a pretty decent array of resistances to complement it, compared to the other two who probably should be left to take hits too much anyway.

Tyrantrum is certainly a very scary attacker, and as I noted at the end I brought it up more as a starting place for discussion. In a metagame where defensive teams are dropping, a Pokemon whose primary match up against such teams seems like it might take a hit. Hoopa and Kyurem-B do best against such teams as well, but they offer a bit more vs Balance and Offense, even if they're still not what they'd prefer to face.

 

[Lord Xen III]

That might be right, I shouldn't have brought in Greninja and Genesect because they were broken, of course. And I also realise that a pokemon has to be effective versus lots of many metagames to be S rank, which is why Lopunny isn't S. But as it stands now Mega Metagross was basically S for its All-out-attacker set, because it preformed said roll immensely effectively. While M-Altaria has basically not one set that makes it S, but it is a great sweeper, but what makes it S is that it has so many good sets which makes it immensely unpredictable. Clefable is what most people think is the best pokemon in OU at the moment, it preforms a support set amazing whilst many of its sets are great and a few are good.

See, the different between Hydreigon, Kyurem-B, Mega Chomp and Hoopa is that all of those pokemon and different sets that break different pokemon, if you run banded Kyurem-B there's a list of counters, but there's also a list of counters to the Mixed set. But the problem with Hoopa is one, most stall mons are specially based or they used fixed damage moves (Chansey, Cresselia, Scalds) So in general its physical bulk is rarely a problem for it versus stall. But Hoopa also only needs to run one set to beat every single mon on stall reliably. Here are some calcs so people actually realise how dumb this pokemons existence is.

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 604-711 (94 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 426-502 (100.7 - 118.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 519-610 (123.5 - 145.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 550-647 (137.1 - 161.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 200-238 (50.7 - 60.4%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 406-477 (100.4 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 632-746 (168.9 - 199.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Assault Vest Drapion: 272-321 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
^lol

I'm going to go all caps now because I'm honestly tired of this glaring problem in OU that's completely being ignored, sorry in advance AM.

At what point do we stop accounting stall as a viable playstyle anymore? Because in the current metagame you have two pokemon that will 100% of the time, unless you make crazy, irrational doubles eradicate stall. I can see moving a lot of shit up because of stall is basically non existent at this point. Do all of you collectively agree that stall isn't meant to be? Because a lot of us enjoy it... Really, in a perfect world I'd see gothitelle gone and Hoopa gone. Yes, stall isn't existent and that's why Hoopa isn't S but don't you ever realise that the REASON stall isn't existent is because of Hoopa and Gothitelle?

EDIT: I don't want to this to be scoffed off and die out... If you have something to say, please take a little time out to address your opinion.

I feel that we have a bit of better understanding but there are a few things to clarify. Brief note on metagross: Metagross's S rank set was at its peak in performance in that it was breaking balance cores left and right, messing with stall, and it was harder to play around for offense because bulky chomp didnt exist, and things like weavile which do a lot of damage with knock off ( although its not really a check to gross at all) weren't there to outspeed it. As such gross was hard to switch into and hard to revenge kill due to good 110 base speed , and amazing bulk (especially physically) along with a great typing to back it up. SO what your missing is that while this metagross's set functioned as a wall breaker that threatened slower teams , the point of concern is that metagross wasn't a liability when it went up versus HO. The same cannot be said for Hoopa u unless its holding a choice scarf, which it can't hold with the set you are describing. The set you are describing is what people theorymonned as its broken set prior to its release but as I've said before hoopa u is better off with mixed LO. The only type of team NP hoopa is functioning against is full stall. IF you use that set against balance or even some semi stall variants i dont see how your getting off a NP and then giving opponent momentum when you could be cheesing with hyperspace fury right off the bat or something , as hoopa doesn't have the speed and bulk to pull that off. I get that hoopa is a strange case in that full stall teams dont really have an adaption to it in the sense they do to the wallbreakers such as Kyurem B and Hydreigon. Which is the reason why its ranked higher. If faster teams didnt exist, Hoopa U would be a very easy S choice, but its not the case.

Semistall is more viable than full stall is. Full stall will never really be able to be close in viability to offense and balance because there are too many wallbreakers in the tier and for what u cant wall u must be able to offensively pressure, and full stall is by definition incapable of doing so.
As much as Gothitelle messes with stall, you have to realize that its one of the few things holding full stall together at this point. It allows you to revenge Heracross and its Mega variant, cripple stall breaker Talonflame, cripple tail glow Manaphy, and I've seen some mirror coat adaptations to mess with Mega Gardevoir and Char y. I'm not trying to mask the fact that hoopa unbound and gothitelle pressure stall more so than some of the wall breakers i just listed in possibly an unfair manner, but like its a matter of adapting to changing times. Stall is no longer as potent as it once was, because the power creep we get every gen compounds the issue . My take on it is if the mon in question pressures all types of team building to the point where there is still little counterplay, you know its time to move it up to S. Mega Gengar had that effect in being very disgusting versus stall, but then its like if you go back to the team builder and change to an offensive team to try and beat it, its not exactly easy to deal with either thanks to its absurd speed and ability. Another way to put it so it doesnt appear condenscending to those who use full stall as their main play style with regards to changing times, its kind of like continuing to use regular salamence in OU and expecting it to be as good as it was in gen 5. IT lost lots of viability due to the tier shift , and the introduction of fairies being one of its several issues and the fact that dragonite has replaced it on most teams as their dragon/flying wall breaker. I get that salamence is just one mon and stall is an entire play style, but it serves to illustrate the point.

This has me scratching my head. Both full stall and semi stall have been pretty dominant at the top of the OU ladder for quite a while, and I thought it was general knowledge that stall can be crazy good in the current meta. If you're referring specifically to passive full stall, then yeah -- it is a bit less viable than semi-stall as a playstyle IMO. But semi-stall being amazing right now doesn't support your point. I could just be misinterpreting your argument, but right now it seems like you're saying that most stall-breakers/wall-breakers flat out 6-0 stall teams. In reality, only a select few wall/stallbreakers can actually break through a well-built stall team with consistency.

I wouldn't say stall, even semi stall has really been dominant, even on the ladder where it thrives the most due to players who strongly believe Stall is OP and need to be linked our OU role compendium for that long list of wallbreakers and stall breakers. Semi stall in particular has had some good success I can say though. The problem is even for a well built semi stall team, there is gonna be a noticeable number of wallbreakers that will pressure your team still, but with good play and a decent check to those you should be fine.

 

[Lord Xen III]

Mega Latios C -> D or Unranked
What is the point of this thing?

Like seriously, why would you ever use it? It's just a Latios that eats up your Mega slot and is outdamaged by its LO-wielding counterpart. Its extra bulk is cool I guess, but it barely does anything noteworthy over vanilla and 99.99% of the time you're better off with that so you don't have to bend over backwards while teambuilding. It's just a waste of space and nobody would use it unless they're going out of their way to make it work.

Fight me Recreant, I'll be on Skype soon.

The argument of it having a very steep opportunity cost even compared to other megas is what makes it C. The reason it hasn't been unranked is because its still a better Latios so it certainly shouldn't be ranked with the worst of the worst. The problem it has is that it can't hold a LO and as such makes it hard to justify use of it over LO normal Latios and take up your mega slot. In other words, despite the crouch on team building it poses due to having inferior splash ability to LO latios due to its lack of any strong niches other than higher base stats, its still similarily effective to Latios when its actually used, which is what maintains its viability.

 

[Vert]

tyrantrum is fine in b- not because of the choice band set, not even the choice scarf set. these are just fragments of its overall viability - we should focus on the dd set. with a lum berry, this thing simply devastates teams. it sets up on talonflame, mew, mega sableye, rotom-w, clefable, defensive starmie, some variants of heatran, celebi, slowking, tornadus-t, tenatcruel,...so saying it lacks set up opportunities is rather false. the power and coverage behind head smash and dragon claw already dismantles teams easily and pair that with a flexible third moveslot and you have a sweeper on you. it also resists / easily shrugs off priority which just adds to its capabilities as a dragon dance sweeper. unlike other dragon dance sweepers, it can break past its checks over time through brute force, similar to how we see zardx wear down landorus-t over time.

we got some recent controversy on m-diancie dropping, but the fact this thing is probably the most underrated mega shouldn't be taken lightly. protect + 3 attacks is better than ever in a metagame where we see powerful breakers such as hoopa-u and kyurem-b being at their highest peak in this stage of the metagame. 110 speed tier is very good allowing it to take advantage of bulky offense which is probably the most prevalent playstyle at the moment. combine this with magic bounce and you have a great offensive hazard control 'mon to use which creates mind games on your opponent's side of the field. this allows other threats such as weavile and volcarona to be placed on your team with much less opportunity cost when paired with latios for example. most of m-diancie's checks simply lose if you predict correctly. i honestly hate prediction arguments but in m-diancie's case, you'll force a lot of switches akin to mega gardevoir. jirachi is 2hkoed on the switch by earth power. ferrothorn, scizor, and skrmory will have hard times against hidden power fire (which i personally believe is better if you aren't running zone). hell even 4 attacks is super dangerous if you don't care about protect. a set of diamond storm / moonblast / hidden power fire / earth power changes the definition of a consistent counter, and possibly changing earth power to psychic for example and you have some luring prowess to support teammates like manaphy. its a very low opportunity cost 'mon, but when you really see the big picture of m-diancie as a whole, you'll realize all these factors play for it to be an a+ 'mon. i didn't even talk about rock polish - it's a god set at dismantling the many offensive teams weak to it especially when paired with the aforementioned zone.

speaking of klefki, i think a lot of people just follow the xy bandwagon even in oras. its an excellent pick for any offensive team because it checks so much while spreading status, putting spikes up, and just being annoying in general because it has some way to threaten every hazard remover.

other than that, i think these rankings are fine.

 

[MikeDawg]

tyrantrum is fine in b- not because of the choice band set, not even the choice scarf set. these are just fragments of its overall viability - we should focus on the dd set. with a lum berry, this thing simply devastates teams. it sets up on talonflame, mew, mega sableye, rotom-w, clefable, defensive starmie, some variants of heatran, celebi, slowking, tornadus-t, tenatcruel,...so saying it lacks set up opportunities is rather false. the power and coverage behind head smash and dragon claw already dismantles teams easily and pair that with a flexible third moveslot and you have a sweeper on you. it also resists / easily shrugs off priority which just adds to its capabilities as a dragon dance sweeper. unlike other dragon dance sweepers, it can break past its checks over time through brute force, similar to how we see zardx wear down landorus-t over time.

Absolutely not lol. First of all, Clefable 1hkos, and the rest of the mons you listed are doing at least 50% with their attacks (bar knock off mew, talon, and sableye). On top of that, Tyrantrum doesn't even 1hko a lot of them, especially if it is +spd, and if it is +spd, then tornadus outspeeds it (and 1hkos with focus blast). This means that they can all just re-status or land that second hit, independently invalidating tyrantrum in either case.

Let's say that you do get in vs a weakened mew, and it will-o-wisps as you dance. You KO it next turn, and then... what? Your opponent sends in one of the many (emphasis on many) mons that can either take a hit, outspeed, or kill with almost any common priority (aqua jet, bullet punch, mach punch, ice shard (or just outspeed with weavile)... all except brave bird and espeed are super effective)?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

On my phone, so I'll try to make this quick, but I think some people are confused about what "opportunity cost" actually means. And I know I've probably made this same mistake myself in the past because it's easy to just throw around the buzzword of the month, but let me clarify this. Opportunity cost is, simply put, what you have to give up in order to choose a particular option. When you run Mega Latios, you give up the ability to run another Mega. Great, but here's the thing. When you run literally any other Mega, you also give up the ability to run another Mega. What this means is that the opportunity cost to using Mega Latios is the exact same as with any other Mega. What changes is the incentive to use him despite the opportunity cost, which is actually considerably lower, but the cost itself isn't any different. Keep that in mind.

 

[EternalSnowman]

I dunno why it got lost in the fray... but anyway, I am once again nominating Thundurus-T for B-, it is amazing in rain, it fits onto a lot of teams with either its Double Dance or Scarf sets and provides a nice VoltSwitch/T-Wave absorber, it even heals off it. It provides its own momentum with Volt Switch and its attacks hit hard even when holding a scarf, since it does come off a base 145 Special Attack. It has a nice base 101 speed which allows it to outpace important base 100 speed mons like Mew, Char-Y and the group. It has a pretty good match-up vs. Offense since often times there are electric mons on the other team or T-Wavers which have increased in popularity. It annihilates weakened teams and has a pretty wide coverage movepool which includes FocusBlast, GrassKnot, Superpower among others to KO important checks/counters, most notably T-Tar and Hippo.

 

[teamsnickers]

Im gonig to nom gliscor for a drop to A-. Gliscor is honestly just outclassed right now at alot of what it does,it has severre competition as a wall/stallbreaker from things like hoopa u manaphy keldeo and even tyrantrum....In a metagame FILLED with powerful water types and weaviles running EVERYWHERE I just dont see how it can be on the same rank as things like mega charizard y and others in A rank.... Wallbreakers/stallbreakers are running EVERYWHERE right now and 99 percent of them steamroll through gliscor..... its typing was much better in x and y and the meta just hasn't been kind to gliscor its more on the level as something like volcarona than zard y.....it has some niches like forcing mega metagross to run ice punch to win a 1v1 against it but its become set up bait alot more now and im team preview I NEVER find myself worrying about gliscor....
216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 187-220 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal (this is special d gliscor...)

 

[Ramses]

Can I just make something clear please?

I think often-times with the nominations to drop something we often don't realize that it isn't 1v6. It's 6v6. Whenever nominations are made to drop something I often see that same reasoning behind nearly every drop and it's because of weaknesses and not being able to beat a specific threat that hits them super-effectively. Team support is an actual thing. It's impossible for a singular Pokemon to cover every single bane to its existance. Sometimes its because of their speed, bulk, or simply because they don't have enough moveslots. That's where your other 20 moveslots come in handy. No Pokemon can perform efficiently unless their checks and counters are effectively removed and team support is the answer to formulating a Sweep. Like for real. People often follow the thought that if it's A / S Rank it requires no team support whatsoever but that isn't the case.

tl:dr Please don't suggest that something like Alakazam drops because it can't outrun and beat Weavile or Serperior drops because it can't Sweep since Mega Venusaur can wall it. You've got 20 other moveslots and 5 more Pokemon to choose from.

 

[4daptability]

Im gonig to nom gliscor for a drop to A-. Gliscor is honestly just outclassed right now at alot of what it does,it has severre competition as a wall/stallbreaker from things like hoopa u manaphy keldeo and even tyrantrum....In a metagame FILLED with powerful water types and weaviles running EVERYWHERE I just dont see how it can be on the same rank as things like mega charizard y and others in A rank.... Wallbreakers/stallbreakers are running EVERYWHERE right now and 99 percent of them steamroll through gliscor..... its typing was much better in x and y and the meta just hasn't been kind to gliscor its more on the level as something like volcarona than zard y.....it has some niches like forcing mega metagross to run ice punch to win a 1v1 against it but its become set up bait alot more now and im team preview I NEVER find myself worrying about gliscor....
216 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 187-220 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal (this is special d gliscor...)

There's a difference between wallbreakers and stallbreakers. Wallbreakers aim to weaken the opposing team by overwhelming them with brute power, if given a safe switch in (ie. Kyurem-B, Charizard Y, Hoopa-U), whereas stallbreakers generally use moves like Taunt and Will-O-Wisp to limit the opposition's options from a defensive point of view while getting residual damge (ie. M-Sableye, Mew, Gliscor). If you want to nominate Gliscor for a drop, I'd recommend comparing it to other bulky grounds rather than offensive threats such as Charizard Y and Volcarona.

 

[quagback2qc]

Absolutely not lol. First of all, Clefable 1hkos, and the rest of the mons you listed are doing at least 50% with their attacks (bar knock off mew, talon, and sableye). On top of that, Tyrantrum doesn't even 1hko a lot of them, especially if it is +spd, and if it is +spd, then tornadus outspeeds it (and 1hkos with focus blast). This means that they can all just re-status or land that second hit, independently invalidating tyrantrum in either case.

Let's say that you do get in vs a weakened mew, and it will-o-wisps as you dance. You KO it next turn, and then... what? Your opponent sends in one of the many (emphasis on many) mons that can either take a hit, outspeed, or kill with almost any common priority (aqua jet, bullet punch, mach punch, ice shard (or just outspeed with weavile)... all except brave bird and espeed are super effective).

I think you have a misconception of how fast and bulky Tyrantrum is once it has a DD set up. With jolly, it reaches 265 speed, and after a DD it reaches 397, fast enough to outspeed Tornadus and Weaville. To add on to this, I refute the point that it dies to common priority, because CB Scizor's Bullet Punch is only a 50% chance to OHKO, and all the other types of priority you mentioned do less then that. Tyrantrum also isn't weak to Water, and for that matter Aqua Jet as well. So if your stop to a Tyrantrum sweep is a priority user, then that won't cut it. Also, the mons you listed which can take a hit are few and far between on offense, the dominant playstyle at the moment. Tyrantrum's STABs obliterate many Offense mons, and it has a flexible third slot for coverage, like Fire Fang or Earthquake. With this versatility as well as brute force, Tyrantrum should stay B-.

 

[Josh Morales]

On my phone, so I'll try to make this quick, but I think some people are confused about what "opportunity cost" actually means. And I know I've probably made this same mistake myself in the past because it's easy to just throw around the buzzword of the month, but let me clarify this. Opportunity cost is, simply put, what you have to give up in order to choose a particular option. When you run Mega Latios, you give up the ability to run another Mega. Great, but here's the thing. When you run literally any other Mega, you also give up the ability to run another Mega. What this means is that the opportunity cost to using Mega Latios is the exact same as with any other Mega. What changes is the incentive to use him despite the opportunity cost, which is actually considerably lower, but the cost itself isn't any different. Keep that in mind.

That's definitely a very accurate definition, but now the question is, exactly how much does that hurt MLatios? As I've pointed out earlier, MLatios and normal Latios both have solid incentives over each other. MLatios' increase in bulk over LO Latios is no joke because losing 10% every time you attack becomes more and more significant the less and less health that Latios gets worn down to, and LO Latios hits ~11% harder(on the special side). So the only real argument going against it is this "opportunity cost," but exactly how strongly does the incentive to use a better Mega affect the viability? Judging from the definition of C-rank,

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that hold a moderately low amount of viability. Their positive traits are slightly hindered by their negative traits.

Should we assume that "positive traits" refers to the fact that Mega Latios at it's core is just as good as normal Latios, and should we assume than "negative trait(s)" refers to the incentive to want to use a different Mega when you could just use normal Latios, I think C-ranks perfectly. However, "incentive" is very subjectice so I'll try to objectively define the incentive in order to justify my opinion.

I don't think the incentive to use a different Mega with normal Latios is strong enough to warrant D-rank or lower because people honestly severely overrate the "opportunity cost" of taking up a Mega slot. If Megas such as ZardX or MAlt really were so fucking powerful that it drives other viable Megas into obsolescence(D-rank or unranked as Karxrida suggested) just for the mere fact that you can only have one Mega per team, you wouldn't see so many Megas in the A-ranks and you wouldn't see a non-Mega given the same viability as them. They would be banned. For example, here's an XY OU SPL match that PDC won against boudouche

Yes, he did have an Aegislash, but boudouche had a Genesect which was banned long before Aegislash. More importantly though, PDC had no Mega and this was in the time that Mega Mawile and Mega Lucario were allowed in OU. If anything, the "opportunity cost" of having no Mega at this time should be incredibly high, but it didn't change the fact that PDC's team was still very solid despite that.

 

[MikeDawg]

I think you have a misconception of how fast and bulky Tyrantrum is once it has a DD set up. With jolly, it reaches 265 speed, and after a DD it reaches 397, fast enough to outspeed Tornadus and Weaville. To add on to this, I refute the point that it dies to common priority, because CB Scizor's Bullet Punch is only a 50% chance to OHKO, and all the other types of priority you mentioned do less then that. Tyrantrum also isn't weak to Water, and for that matter Aqua Jet as well. So if your stop to a Tyrantrum sweep is a priority user, then that won't cut it. Also, the mons you listed which can take a hit are few and far between on offense, the dominant playstyle at the moment. Tyrantrum's STABs obliterate many Offense mons, and it has a flexible third slot for coverage, like Fire Fang or Earthquake. With this versatility as well as brute force, Tyrantrum should stay B-.

Tyrantrum is practically never going to be at full health, set up, and against a Mon that it threatens. Like I said, it is taking at least 50% from most of the mons that were listed as setup opportunities. Against offense (which you note as being vulnerable to ddance tyrantrum), it struggles to set up against anything. Even talonflame ends up bringing tyrantrum below 50%. On top of that, jolly tyrantrum especially isn't really strong enough to get the kills that it needs to, and offensive has plenty of options to deal with a miraculously boosted and full-health tyrantrum. Keldeo, for example, takes a bit more than half from +1 jolly tyrantrum (dragon Claw only does ~5% more than a resisted head smash iirc). It most certainly is not the set that would keep tyrantrum in b-.

 

[Alfalfa]

Tyrantrum is practically never going to be at full health, set up, and against a Mon that it threatens. Like I said, it is taking at least 50% from most of the mons that were listed as setup opportunities. Against offense (which you note as being vulnerable to ddance tyrantrum), it struggles to set up against anything. Even talonflame ends up bringing tyrantrum below 50%. On top of that, jolly tyrantrum especially isn't really strong enough to get the kills that it needs to, and offensive has plenty of options to deal with a miraculously boosted and full-health tyrantrum. Keldeo, for example, takes a bit more than half from +1 jolly tyrantrum (dragon Claw only does ~5% more than a resisted head smash iirc). It most certainly is not the set that would keep tyrantrum in b-.

Dragon Dance Tyrantrum is meant to be a late-game sweeper; by the time it sets up, its checks should already be weakened. Yet, you are treating it as though it is supposed to OHKO every member of the opponent's team. While it certainly has a lot of power, it needs it checks weakened, just like every other sweeper, before it can attempt to sweep. While it is not impossible that it will get worn down quickly, a well-built team will be capable of supporting Tyrantrum through Healing Wish support, a back-up cleaner, or other forms of support to address such caveat. I have no opinion on where Tyrantrum should be ranked, but please don't use flawed logic to nom something to drop.

 

[MikeDawg]

Dragon Dance Tyrantrum is meant to be a late-game sweeper; by the time it sets up, its checks should already be weakened. Yet, you are treating it as though it is supposed to OHKO every member of the opponent's team. While it certainly has a lot of power, it needs it checks weakened, just like every other sweeper, before it can attempt to sweep. While it is not impossible that it will get worn down quickly, a well-built team will be capable of supporting Tyrantrum through Healing Wish support, a back-up cleaner, or other forms of support to address such caveat. I have no opinion on where Tyrantrum should be ranked, but please don't use flawed logic to nom something to drop.

The argument a Mon is a "late game sweeper", so it should stay in ______ relatively high rank doesn't make sense to me. There are lots and lots of mons that can clean up a team late game. Lots of them. Most offensive win conditions are meant for late game, because that is just the nature of pokemon: you spend the game doing what you can to eliminate checks/counters, and then you sweep in the late game. The difference between tyrantrum and the majority of other options that exist in the tier is the inordinate amount of support that the dragon dance set requires. I pose the question again: when is it going to set up? When, realistically, are its checks going to be eliminated, even on an offensive team? Keldeo is not a difficult Mon to keep kind of healthy. Priority users are the mons that typically stick it out until the end. Keeping checks healthy is an equally large part of the game as eliminating them; I don't know why you are suggesting otherwise. The problem with dragon dance tyrantrum is that it's checks (which in this case means anything that can prevent it from setting up, tank a hit after it has set up, or kill it after it has set up, which is a whole lot of mons in reality) are ubiquitous to the point that using it is a liability when there are so many other options available. Some of these other late game cleaners don't even need to set up, and they are high in the viability rankings because that fact wipes out a huge amount of support that they would otherwise need. Scarf tyrantrum is the better late game cleaner, in all honesty.

Dragon dance tyrantrum's flaws are more than "slightly hindered by its negative traits" (which is the description of c). It is definitely not the set that is keeping it in b (which is the whole point, if you were to consider the context of the post before intervening), and suggesting, as you are, that it is relegated to the role of "late game sweeper" is supportive of this. 99% of the time, you are going to wish you used scarf/band.

"Late game sweeper" is synonymous with "needs lots of support". I don't get why people use that argument as support for a pokemon's viability.

P.S. Healing Wish does not fix the problem of not being able to set up.

 

[Alfalfa]

The argument a Mon is a "late game sweeper", so it should stay in ______ relatively high rank doesn't make sense to me. There are lots and lots of mons that can clean up a team late game. Lots of them. Most offensive win conditions are meant for late game, because that is just the nature of pokemon: you spend the game doing what you can to eliminate checks/counters, and then you sweep in the late game. The difference between tyrantrum and the majority of other options that exist in the tier is the inordinate amount of support that the dragon dance set requires. I pose the question again: when is it going to set up? When, realistically, are its checks going to be eliminated, even on an offensive team? Keldeo is not a difficult Mon to keep kind of healthy. Priority users are the mons that typically stick it out until the end. Keeping checks healthy is an equally large part of the game as eliminating them; I don't know why you are suggesting otherwise. The problem with dragon dance tyrantrum is that it's checks (which in this case means anything that can prevent it from setting up, tank a hit after it has set up, or kill it after it has set up, which is a whole lot of mons in reality) are ubiquitous to the point that using it is a liability when there are so many other options available. Some of these other late game cleaners don't even need to set up, and they are high in the viability rankings because that fact wipes out a huge amount of support that they would otherwise need. Scarf tyrantrum is the better late game cleaner, in all honesty.

Dragon dance tyrantrum's flaws are more than "slightly hindered by its negative traits" (which is the description of c). It is definitely not the set that is keeping it in b (which is the whole point), and suggesting, as you are, that it is relegated to the role of "late game sweeper" is supportive of this. 99% of the time, you are going to wish you used scarf/band.

I never stated that Dragon Dance Tyrantrum was the set keeping it at such a high rank. I stated that Dragon Dance Tyrantrum isn't sweeping until its checks are weakened or removed. You appear to have misunderstood me; I had no intention to argue keeping Tyrantrum up in such a high rank. I was simply clarifying how Dragon Dance Tyrantrum was supposed to address its flaws and caveats.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Versus offence it doesn't really need its checks weakened, the problem is that it's so easy to revenge kill. Nothing on offence takes on Tyrantrum in terms of tanking a hit, but the problem is that things like Lopunny, Scizor, Azumarill, Mega Lopunny, Thundurus, Lopunny stops it in its tracks if it happens to set up, which makes the DD set more of liability...

 

[BlazeLatias]

Noticed some talk about trum and its dd set

I'm personally not a fan of dd tyrantrum. After using it for a while I quickly learned that id rather be running a band set simply it's its really hard for it to set up in fact id rather use dd m tar then dd trum because tyrantrum really has trouble retaining a high level of hp compared to m tar who has much more attack and bulk then tyrantrum so it can set up much better. I think tyrantrums somewhat outclassed as a "dd" cleaner because it has trouble setting up.

trum does its best with a band or even a scarf. As a dd mon I think mega tyranitar does that better.

I say outclassed by m tar as they do the same thing for the most part.

 

[Flygonial]

I'd also like to point out to AllJokesAside that Azumarill isn't much of a Tyrantrum answer considering that it gets flat-out OHKO'd at +1 and can't even guarantee a 2HKO with Band AJ (But it will get it most of the time with a max roll of around 58%), and Thundy isn't that much of a concern on Lum Berry variants. Still, I would much rather have the band set most of the time as well, considering how while it can stomach priority, its not exactly hard to get prior damage off on it, and most scarfers can take it out although I haven't been seeing that item around that much anymore. The immediate power can punch holes through teams more easily with the right coverage move rather than needing fatter 'mons weakened.

Also, I don't find that Mega T-Tar outclasses DD Tyrantrum that hard really, considering that it takes up a mega slot and misses out on some vital KOs that it would need to run an Adamant nature for - which still doesn't guarantee them. On the contrary, DD Tyrantrum can afford to run a Jolly Nature and still get most 1HKOs, those being Azumarill, BandZor, can actually OHKO Keldeo at +1 with Outrage although that does have its own backlash, and has a somewhat easier time with Hippowdon and Chesnaught. Of course though, Mega Tyranitar is undoubtedly a better pokemon overall, but I wouldn't really say outclassed all that much.

 

[PeekoTheBoy]

hey I'm new so take it easy pls :P

I'd like to nominate Cobalion for B-

Cobalion gets a decent movepool with access to Volt Switch, Stealth Rock, Roar, Thunder Wave, a hard hitting STAB Close Combat, or even Magnet Rise to give yourself the upper hand against many ground types (Lando, Chomp, Gliscor, Mamo, Diggers). Volt Switch works well with Coba's STABs, like when Charizard/Talon switches in to try to shrug off a resisted hit and set up. Cobalion checks common threats such as Bisharp, Weavile, M-Scizor (fighting coverage hurts) and all Tyranitar sets get hard checked/countered. It's been a good pivot from my experiences.

EDIT: didn't mention Stone Edge at all. Cobalion outspeeds Charizard and Victini and can Stone Edge (or Thunder Wave)

 

[Srn]

hey I'm new so take it easy pls :P

I'd like to nominate Cobalion for B-

Cobalion gets a decent movepool with access to Volt Switch, Stealth Rock, Roar, Thunder Wave, a hard hitting STAB Close Combat, or even Magnet Rise to give yourself the upper hand against many ground types (Lando, Chomp, Gliscor, Mamo, Diggers). Volt Switch works well with Coba's STABs, like when Charizard/Talon switches in to try to shrug off a resisted hit and set up. Cobalion checks common threats such as Bisharp, Weavile, M-Scizor (fighting coverage hurts) and all Tyranitar sets get hard checked/countered. It's been a good pivot from my experiences.

EDIT: didn't mention Stone Edge at all. Cobalion outspeeds Charizard and Victini and can Stone Edge (or Thunder Wave)

well here's the thing.
The one main reason, i thought, to use cobalion was to check bish and set rocks at the same time. Well now that bulky chomp is popular, and the sets u mentioned, it got me thinking a bit. Well, magnet rise+toxic could let it beat grounds! Stone edge can hurt fires! t-wave annoys everything else!
But cobalion has too much it wants to do imo.

Close combat is non-negotiable, and rocks and iron head often are too. A steel type that can't touch fairies kinda blows, so u definitely want iron head. That basically leaves you with one slot, maybe 2 if u put the burden of rocks on something else. what're you gonna do with this then? Even if you run magnet rise, bulky grounds can still ww you out for hazards damage or use other coverage to damage you as they heal back all the damage you do, so you need toxic for them. But you also want to pivot with volt switch, and unless you run magnet rise+toxic, you're hard walled by one of, if not THE most popular bulky mon, hippo. And throughout all of this, you're still walled by fires, still 2hkod by weavile low kick, still strapped for bulk because you need to make the most of your speed, etc, etc, I could go on. If it could run close combat, iron head, stealth rock, toxic, thunder wave, volt switch, magnet rise, and stone edge all at the same time i'd use it. But unfortunately this game only has 4 moveslots.

You can argue that "you can tailor it to your teams needs idiot! why are you assuming its 1-6 noob!" but I only gave the best case scenario of having two moveslots to work with. Realistically, you have only one, and half of this cool shit like magnet rise+toxic doesn't even work. The team will need to cover for it no matter what it does because its potential flexibility is ruined by its lack of moveslots. Your variation of one move doesn't get you far, there is hardly much "tailoring" to start with.

It's gonna be facing some competition with more competent fighting types to check the threats that cobal does as well, such as keldeo, conk, heracross, breloom, hawlucha, mega lop, etc.

Also where did u get the notion that this checks mzor close combat actually heals it.

tl; dr it doesn't have enough moveslots.

And that was a good nom considering ur new, keep it up dude