Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[RichieTheGarchomp]

So basically MHera shouldn't move up because it loses to specific mons on specific teams?
Thats like saying we should move down Manaphy because it loses to Grass and Electric types?
Isnt the definition of a Wallbreaker something thats supposed to break down walls that other mons couldnt do? Not destroy faster mons that would obviously destroy it? That's why we have more then one mon on the team to beat those threats.
Wallbreakers arent supposed to beat every mon that fits under the "Balanced" or "Stall" (well it kinda beats stall) its supposed to take on the majority. Its like people think MHera is the only mon on the team.
I don't know what rank MHera was when Birdspam wasnt a thing anymore, but the moment Tankchomp started getting more viable and birdspam got less viable was the exact moment MHera rised in viability. Sure, it kinda loses to Chomp... but its a good trade-off.

oh my god you guys dont get it.

i dont care about your opinions of other users and what they post. no one does. this is a pokemon thread. if you have a problem with the thread PM me (ive gotten about 6 different pms and i have midterms so wait a little while for a response).

arent we like fucking nerds tho? lmao

 

[Leftiez]

In my opinion M-Heracross shouldn't move up, why ? It's simple M-Heracross nowadays is pretty match up reliant which means either you face Balanced so it is gonna put in works either you face Stall (Gothitelle) / Offense (Fast mons) and you can just throw it away unless you're running some Trick Room team which also means you're relying on matchup again. Yes you're right, a wallbreaker is supposed to wear down defensive pokemons but in the case of Heracross where it need some support to be effective because of its low speed it's more problematic to use him over pokemons such as Gardevoir, Tornadus-T, Pinsir, Gyarados or Manaphy as they basically don't need or at least too much support to be effective, you still didn't get what i meant ? If your reason to use M-Heracross is wallbreaking then you're not doing the optimal choice, because there are many pokemons better overall for this role in both building and battling. However don't take me wrong, i'm not saying that they are outclassing M-Heracross as they dont share same caracteristics, i just wouldn't have put him in same rank as Pinsir or Gyarados when they are probably safer and better for this role.

 

[Punchshroom]

Like this analysis of its matchup against defensive cores is cute and all until you realize not one single thing has changed in its ability to impale defensive cores in the first place, so not sure why this has been a point of interest, it's one of those things people catch on to and then assume it's better we're all guilty of it no shame in that but jeez. How exactly is its bulk and typing salvaging its below average speed when its typing leaves it prone to a bunch of offensive typings like Psychic, Fairy, and Fire which are commonly seen on builds utilizing the likes of Diancie, Latis, Zards, TFlame, etc? M-Hera really hasn't gotten any better in the metagame so I'm not quite sure where the hype is coming from if the bulk is some sort of benefit to itself.

What I've noticed is the frequency of defensive cores that get troubled substantially by Mega Heracross, particularly the bulky Ground + Steel cores, or cores that implement MSableye or Slowbro, where MHeracross can just outright waltz in on most of them and blast a hole in the team, whereas the much frailer MegaCham gets no such luxury. MHeracross's main obstacle when it comes to breaking bulky teams would be Unaware Clefable, as opposed to MegaCham's MSableye, but at least MHeracross isn't completely helpless against its counter like MegaCham is, as MHeracross has a chance to break through a slightly weakened Clef if it Rock Blasts on the switch.

MHera's matchup against offense isn't even that bad. Sure it gets forced out by the numerous Flyings, Fires, and Fairies, but MegaCham suffers the same fate or at the very best simply speedties with them (MegaVoir and Charizard). On the other hand, MHera can actually switch into things thanks to its bulk and resists, while MegaCham can only really come in on double switches or revenge kills.

In my opinion M-Heracross shouldn't move up, why ? It's simple M-Heracross nowadays is pretty match up reliant which means either you face Balanced so it is gonna put in works either you face Stall (Gothitelle) / Offense (Fast mons) and you can just throw it away unless you're running some Trick Room team which also means you're relying on matchup again. Yes you're right, a wallbreaker is supposed to wear down defensive pokemons but in the case of Heracross where it need some support to be effective because of its low speed it's more problematic to use him over pokemons such as Gardevoir, Tornadus-T, Pinsir, Gyarados or Manaphy as they basically don't need or at least too much support to be effective, you still didn't get what i meant ? If your reason to use M-Heracross is wallbreaking then you're not doing the optimal choice, because there are many pokemons better overall for this role in both building and battling. However don't take me wrong, i'm not saying that they are outclassing M-Heracross as they dont share same caracteristics, i just wouldn't have put him in same rank as Pinsir or Gyarados when they are probably safer and better for this role.

I mean in terms of wallbreaking MHeracross already has some inherent cost associated to it simply by being a Mega, but it barely needs that much support to do its job properly (if u have hazard support, even Unaware Clefable is on thin ice, plus even if they have Goth it is very difficult to prevent MHera from killing one of their mons, especially when MHera doesn't even get OHKOed by Psychic), like the other Megas you brought up. I mean you can compare those A+ and A mons with MHera all you like, but that doesn't seem to weaken MHera's move to A- much at all in any case.

If you're so adamant about keeping Mega Heracross out of A-, I'd probably suggest to drop Mega Medicham to B+ while you're at it if you're looking at raw effectiveness of mons in each ranking; it has enough flaws to not seem on par with the other A- mons to me.

 

[Clair]

Absorbing Burns isn't really a plus when 3/4 moves are RNG-reliant. You aren't going to be putting out consistent damage without Skill Link.

252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Pin Missile (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 129-156 (31.9 - 38.6%) -- approx. 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 87-105 (21.5 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah actually, it is. Burned Close Combat is just as powerful as M-Heracross', which is a major plus right there, and then even without Skill Link its coverage moves are easily strong enough to handle most Fighting resists. Compare to:

252+ Atk Pure Power burned Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 127-150 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power burned Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 78-93 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

In my opinion M-Heracross shouldn't move up, why ? It's simple M-Heracross nowadays is pretty match up reliant which means either you face Balanced so it is gonna put in works either you face Stall (Gothitelle) / Offense (Fast mons) and you can just throw it away

Against stall the Substitute set (which as I said earlier is the best currently) gets Sub up (vs Sableye, which can't usually touch you, or vs Chansey or something else crucial that is threatened with an OHKO), and then you force their Skarmory to Whirlwind you out and be left at 50% max (or it can play mindgames between saccing itself then going to Goth, or Roosting). Even if they have a fast mon, the absolute worst case scenario is a one for one trade.

Against offense you still check a bunch of common mons with your natural bulk and can reliably get one-two kills.

M-Heracross is somewhat match-up reliant, in the sense that some games it will just win for you and otherwise it will be pretty average, but it's never going to be deadweight the way it's being made out to be.

 

[Karxrida]

252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 205-243 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Pin Missile (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 129-156 (31.9 - 38.6%) -- approx. 0.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 87-105 (21.5 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah actually, it is. Burned Close Combat is just as powerful as M-Heracross', which is a major plus right there, and then even without Skill Link its coverage moves are easily strong enough to handle most Fighting resists. Compare to:

252+ Atk Pure Power burned Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 127-150 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Pure Power burned Mega Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 78-93 (19.3 - 23%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

Then just run normal Heracross at that point so your coverage puts out consistent damage.

Pre-Mega Heracross should not be switching into Will-O-Wisp. Stop trying to make that seem like a plus when it prevents you from Mega Evolving to abuse the increase in bulk and Skill Link.

 

[Clair]

Then just run normal Heracross at that point so your coverage puts out consistent damage.

Pre-Mega Heracross should not be switching into Will-O-Wisp. Stop trying to make that seem like a plus when it prevents you from Mega Evolving to abuse the increase in bulk and Skill Link.

I can't believe this is actually happening.

M-Heracross is better than regular Heracross, hence usage.

Heracross can still be effective while Burnt, unlike every comparable Fighting type Mega.

Since occasionally you will have nothing better to take a Burn with (or risk it, in the case of Scald), this is a small but legitimate plus in favour of M-Heracross.

I mean even writing this out makes me feel stupid. Please don't ask me to do it again.

 

[bludz]

What I've noticed is the frequency of defensive cores that get troubled substantially by Mega Heracross, particularly the bulky Ground + Steel cores, or cores that implement MSableye or Slowbro, where MHeracross can just outright waltz in on most of them and blast a hole in the team, whereas the much frailer MegaCham gets no such luxury. MHeracross's main obstacle when it comes to breaking bulky teams would be Unaware Clefable, as opposed to MegaCham's MSableye, but at least MHeracross isn't completely helpless against its counter like MegaCham is, as MHeracross has a chance to break through a slightly weakened Clef if it Rock Blasts on the switch.

MHera's matchup against offense isn't even that bad. Sure it gets forced out by the numerous Flyings, Fires, and Fairies, but MegaCham suffers the same fate or at the very best simply speedties with them (MegaVoir and Charizard). On the other hand, MHera can actually switch into things thanks to its bulk and resists, while MegaCham can only really come in on double switches or revenge kills.


I mean in terms of wallbreaking MHeracross already has some inherent cost associated to it simply by being a Mega, but it barely needs that much support to do its job properly (if u have hazard support, even Unaware Clefable is on thin ice, plus even if they have Goth it is very difficult to prevent MHera from killing one of their mons, especially when MHera doesn't even get OHKOed by Psychic), like the other Megas you brought up. I mean you can compare those A+ and A mons with MHera all you like, but that doesn't seem to weaken MHera's move to A- much at all in any case.

If you're so adamant about keeping Mega Heracross out of A-, I'd probably suggest to drop Mega Medicham to B+ while you're at it if you're looking at raw effectiveness of mons in each ranking; it has enough flaws to not seem on par with the other A- mons to me.

One thing this fails to address is the impact Mega Heracross' speed has on its wallbreaking capabilities. While there are very few safe switch-ins, if you guess incorrectly Heracross is going to be forced out. Whereas with pokemon like Gardevoir and Charizard Y, some balance teams end up pulling all sorts of switches just to dance around them because they actually outspeed stuff. I understand that the prediction argument goes both ways, but the point is that Heracross as a wallbreaker is prediction reliant, whereas some of the aforementioned wallbreakers spam STAB a lot more reliably. Granted this is a comparison to A rank pokemon, but Mega Pinsir is in A- rank and it usually gets off just spamming its STAB or SD'ing up and then doing the same. Medicham similarly tends to click HJK. Yes certain things wall these threats and Heracross is walled by a little less, but it's also much easier to take advantage of because it is slow.

As an example, Tornadus-T is a common mon on balance teams. Heracross has to hit it with a Rock Blast, or it can switch in after SR (albeit taking a lot) and force it out. On the other hand, Medicham can flat out KO it after rocks with HJK (very low chance) but its basically guaranteed if you incorporate Bullet Punch.

While you're right that Heracross' matchup against offense isn't all that bad, it isn't all that good, either. Having the ability to switch in on something doesn't necessarily make its matchup against offense that much better, you have to consider the total number of successful attacks a pokemon can get off. Because of its low speed tier, it has to threaten things out based on bulk and not on outspeeding them, which is generally not as conducive to getting more attacks off. I've used both pokemon enough to know that Medicham will, on average, get off more attacks per game against opposing offensive teams. Not only that, but because of its speed tier and access to priority, its frailty is somewhat made up for. There's also less prediction required, because not many things that outspeed it can switch in to force it out.

Medicham has no business in B+; it has a solid matchup against many balance teams, even those carrying Slowbro or Celebi, and has actually a pretty solid matchup against opposing offense thanks to Fake Out and Bullet Punch. I don't really think Heracross should be in A- either - are we really saying it is as effective a pokemon as Jirachi or Starmie in this metagame? Checking Dark types is nice and all but with the speed creep and all the common offensive types its weak to, I really don't see how any metagame trends warrant a rise.

 

[Flamer]

You guys are way over exaggerating how much of a hinderance Mheras low speed is. Sure it dismantles defensive cores but thats no different to the reason it was in B+ in the first place. Its not like it suddenly became number 1 at killing defensive teams when it still loses to the best and most common defensive team in the meta. If someone is stupid enough to leave their Megaeye in on Mhera then theyre clearly not someone you should be basing your ranking opinions on. Meanwhile, Mhera performance against offense has not improved at all and while it is able to tank neutral hits like a champ it still loses to a very large proportion of offensive teams because its typing is pretty ass defensively. Even its performance against balance is still very prediction based and unless you pick the right move 100% of the time you are going to suffer. The fact it requires a mega slot is just icing on the cake when you consider the number on viable non mega wallbreakers who are just as effective, if not more. Keep it at B+

Ah lol i guess i kinda started this shitstorm. To justify my original post on the matter Ill try to clear this up. The reason people like the council members find it annoying to post has always been because of a lot of the mindless shit that people post here, thats not anything new. Of course, thats not to say they shouldnt at least attempt to make detailed posts and punchshroom was right that being a council member/moderator doesnt excuse you from putting some effort in but in terms of the rankings at the moment some of you think that just because you beat a few teams using a mon then it deserves to move up. Meanwhile we have the problem at the moment of the upper ranks being legitimately inflated, mons like MAero, MLatias MPert, Celebi, MTTar, Diggersby and several more should have dropped ages ago but people seem to always use their positions as logic to boost the ranks of other mons. Its not like AM was wrong when he said Mhera shouldnt rise because other stuff in its rank should be dropping and I really dont see much more reason he needed to provide. I mean sure he couldve said it more tactfully but when you have people like richie who think that typing like a delinquent is the norm it really doesnt seem like a problem.

 

[Celticpride]

What I've noticed is the frequency of defensive cores that get troubled substantially by Mega Heracross, particularly the bulky Ground + Steel cores, or cores that implement MSableye or Slowbro, where MHeracross can just outright waltz in on most of them and blast a hole in the team, whereas the much frailer MegaCham gets no such luxury. MHeracross's main obstacle when it comes to breaking bulky teams would be Unaware Clefable, as opposed to MegaCham's MSableye, but at least MHeracross isn't completely helpless against its counter like MegaCham is, as MHeracross has a chance to break through a slightly weakened Clef if it Rock Blasts on the switch.

MHera's matchup against offense isn't even that bad. Sure it gets forced out by the numerous Flyings, Fires, and Fairies, but MegaCham suffers the same fate or at the very best simply speedties with them (MegaVoir and Charizard). On the other hand, MHera can actually switch into things thanks to its bulk and resists, while MegaCham can only really come in on double switches or revenge kills.


I mean in terms of wallbreaking MHeracross already has some inherent cost associated to it simply by being a Mega, but it barely needs that much support to do its job properly (if u have hazard support, even Unaware Clefable is on thin ice, plus even if they have Goth it is very difficult to prevent MHera from killing one of their mons, especially when MHera doesn't even get OHKOed by Psychic), like the other Megas you brought up. I mean you can compare those A+ and A mons with MHera all you like, but that doesn't seem to weaken MHera's move to A- much at all in any case.

If you're so adamant about keeping Mega Heracross out of A-, I'd probably suggest to drop Mega Medicham to B+ while you're at it if you're looking at raw effectiveness of mons in each ranking; it has enough flaws to not seem on par with the other A- mons to me.

This is all basically ignoring the advantages associated with Medicham and the use of Fake Out + Bullet Punch, or even just Fake Out, which affords Medicham the luxury of dealing decent enough damage to offense especially in later game scenarios. Double priority may not make or break Medicham's matchup vs offense but writing as much as you did without even mentioning double priority as a huge advantage Medicham has seems a little bit silly to me.

In the larger Heracross conversation, I think that it's just hard to justify Heracorss' usage these days. You can post walls of calcs showing its awesome power, but it's a really hard sell to use it over Kyu-B, Manaphy, or Hoopa and the like unless you are trying for some special snowflake kinda deal. This thread has a habit of glorifying mons like Heracross due to the immense amount of pressure something like Heracross seems to present but in practice you really don't see that level of impact especially where most of OU is offense or faster balanced. On 9 teams out of 10 you're better off just slapping Hoopa or Kyu-B or Manaphy on and abusing something like Mane or Lopunny or Zam instead. Heracross' nature as a defensive pivot is almost 100% overblown and in most cases it's akin to Gard checking Latios, nice in theory but chip damage, hazard, lack of bulk investment and passive recovery almost always make this a pure theorymon point. Not a strike against Hera perse, but it's really a moot point in the larger macro scheme of things. If you are relying on Hera as a check to things that's just bad building to a degree.

 

[Punchshroom]

One thing this fails to address is the impact Mega Heracross' speed has on its wallbreaking capabilities. While there are very few safe switch-ins, if you guess incorrectly Heracross is going to be forced out. Whereas with pokemon like Gardevoir and Charizard Y, some balance teams end up pulling all sorts of switches just to dance around them because they actually outspeed stuff. I understand that the prediction argument goes both ways, but the point is that Heracross as a wallbreaker is prediction reliant, whereas some of the aforementioned wallbreakers spam STAB a lot more reliably. Granted this is a comparison to A rank pokemon, but Mega Pinsir is in A- rank and it usually gets off just spamming its STAB or SD'ing up and then doing the same. Medicham similarly tends to click HJK. Yes certain things wall these threats and Heracross is walled by a little less, but it's also much easier to take advantage of because it is slow.

I get that the Speed tier is a point for YZard and MegaVoir (which is why they're ranked higher in the first place), but for the most part, there are not that much of Pokemon that lie between the 100 and 75 Speed tier that threaten MHeracross, especially those that are found on balance: some mons I can mention would be like offensive Heatran, Hoopa-U, and +Spe Mega Altaria (is this found on balance?). To the next point...

While you're right that Heracross' matchup against offense isn't all that bad, it isn't all that good, either. Having the ability to switch in on something doesn't necessarily make its matchup against offense that much better, you have to consider the total number of successful attacks a pokemon can get off. Because of its low speed tier, it has to threaten things out based on bulk and not on outspeeding them, which is generally not as conducive to getting more attacks off. I've used both pokemon enough to know that Medicham will, on average, get off more attacks per game against opposing offensive teams. Not only that, but because of its speed tier and access to priority, its frailty is somewhat made up for. There's also less prediction required, because not many things that outspeed it can switch in to force it out.

Medicham has no business in B+; it has a solid matchup against many balance teams, even those carrying Slowbro or Celebi, and has actually a pretty solid matchup against opposing offense thanks to Fake Out and Bullet Punch. I don't really think Heracross should be in A- either - are we really saying it is as effective a pokemon as Jirachi or Starmie in this metagame? Checking Dark types is nice and all but with the speed creep and all the common offensive types its weak to, I really don't see how any metagame trends warrant a rise.

This is all basically ignoring the advantages associated with Medicham and the use of Fake Out + Bullet Punch, or even just Fake Out, which affords Medicham the luxury of dealing decent enough damage to offense especially in later game scenarios. Double priority may not make or break Medicham's matchup vs offense but writing as much as you did without even mentioning double priority as a huge advantage Medicham has seems a little bit silly to me.

From my experiences, the sheer ubiquity of Sand teams and Bisharp makes MHera's presence against offensive teams somewhat consistently relevant (especially when they lack solid switch-ins to Mhera of their own), whereas MegaCham does have Bullet Punch for teams that struggle with Mega Diancie I guess. Otherwise, if we're going to compare effectiveness between Mega Fighting-types against offense then Mega Lopunny far outperforms MegaCham, but did that stop MegaCham from attaining A- Rank?

In the larger Heracross conversation, I think that it's just hard to justify Heracorss' usage these days. You can post walls of calcs showing its awesome power, but it's a really hard sell to use it over Kyu-B, Manaphy, or Hoopa and the like unless you are trying for some special snowflake kinda deal. This thread has a habit of glorifying mons like Heracross due to the immense amount of pressure something like Heracross seems to present but in practice you really don't see that level of impact especially where most of OU is offense or faster balanced. On 9 teams out of 10 you're better off just slapping Hoopa or Kyu-B or Manaphy on and abusing something like Mane or Lopunny or Zam instead. Heracross' nature as a defensive pivot is almost 100% overblown and in most cases it's akin to Gard checking Latios, nice in theory but chip damage, hazard, lack of bulk investment and passive recovery almost always make this a pure theorymon point. Not a strike against Hera perse, but it's really a moot point in the larger macro scheme of things. If you are relying on Hera as a check to things that's just bad building to a degree.

Wait, why are you comparing non-Mega wallbreakers as alternatives to Mega Heracross, because this can also apply to other wallbreaking Megas as well (most notably Mega Medicham). As for MHera checking things, it's definitely not the first thing that comes to mind when picking MHera, but attackers with defensive utility have always been favored (SpD Talon, AV Torn-T, AV Raikou, Keldeo) so it's not like MHera is faltering hard in that aspect, especially since it has the physical bulk to back it up. Sure MHera doesn't have longevity, but when the mons it checks don't survive long themselves, it simply becomes a matter of outlasting them while doing as much damage back as possible, the latter of which MHera is more than capable of doing (also isn't this how Keldeo users think when it comes to checking Bisharp and whatnot?).

 

[bludz]

Not gonna list all the mons between 75 and 100 but I can assure you that list has some significant names both on balance AND on offense.

Yes Mega Lop has a better matchup against offense than Medicham, but you're sorta glossing over the fact that Medicham actually hits like a truck I mean Hippowdon gets blown back by HJK. Similar to Hera it hits like a monster but it's actually decently fast and with priority (dual priority at that!). I don't really get the Lopunny comparison at all here actually since Medicham's not really competing as an offense killer; it's competing with Gallade/Hera as wallbreakers moreso and finding itself in a better matchup against offense than Hera, whereas Gallade sort of rides this weird middle ground between it and Lopunny that is hard to justify a lot of the time.

 

[Martin]

TBH we shouldn't be focusing on 'mons X and Y rising but rather on 'mons A and B dropping. The upper ranks are full of crap that could definitely drop (Mega Gallade is C+ at best as far as I'm concerned, some stuff like Zapdos, Omastar, Chansey, Dragalge and a handful of others could defninitely see drops if we de-inflate B, some of A- could drop and the current A+ to A- 'mons could be spread between the ranks noticably better instead of 40% of the main rank being in A+ etc.), and there is a load of stuff in the lower ranks which are either too niche to be as high as they are (e.g. Mega Latios, Hoopa-C) or that are just plain bad (looking at you Chandelure). While there are a handful of things that I legitimately think are too low (imo Melo is C- relative to the current rankings, but that might just be me (it would probably look more like a D 'mon if the rankings were better tbh)), the primary focus atm definitely shouldn't be moving yet another 'mon to A- when we really need to decide what should be dropping. If we keep nomming everything that we win a game with to move up (this is exaggerated, but the point stands) these rankings aren't going to improve.

Just my two cents.

 

[dwp]

I feel kinda uncomfortable commenting on this since MCross wasn't slated, but...

As someone who enjoys playing in a fatter metagame more then an offensive one I can certainly see why people would consider Mega Heracross to be a threat. Non-contact 125 power stab to bust through the slappable nightmare known as tankchomp and has a few pretty cool options at its disposal. Pretty decent bulk even uninvested and 75, while not being ideal (missing out on MAlt notably), is fast enough to get the job done at what people are nomming it for - busting fat cores. It's something you need to take into consideration when making a balanced/non-AIDS stall team and failing to prepare for it can lead to a recommendation of simply pressing x on preview.

That said, the key thing to take into consideration is that MCross has always had these traits. On one hand, it's not like Reuni in UU, which was like...RU? NU? or something before people remembered it was actually pretty cash money and now it's chilling in S. It's a B+ threat - and if you're making the kind of team/building around the kind of core that MCross threatens, you'll work your way down the threat list and shouldn't have skipped over it. It's not like Offence where, by its very nature, you'll always carry something to revenge/set up on it after a sack (Being able to get some kos and survive some hits vs offence is by all means not a trait exclusive to MCross - KyuB/Mana/Hoopa to an extent can do this), and so you really should be taking even "lower ranked uncommon" threats into account and have a game plan in place to deal with them. On the other hand, nothing has been added to make MCross better - It's not like Hoopa where it's got this "shiny new toy" feel to it, nor has it got any new tutor moves or anything.

That leaves us with whether current metagame trends. Aids stall carries scarf goth - I'm aware that psychic doesn't ohko from full but you also have to take into account that hera has to be well preserved - and apart from that, I would think that the meta is trending towards offence still - which isn't favourable to MCross. The lack of physically defensive unaware clefables with mixed (and even unaware spdef but that still needs to be healthy to take on mana and it doesn't even hard counter) certainly does favour it, but i'd say that's about it.

I don't really see any reason for it to move up or down. Nothing has changed except people have actually remembered that this thing does do what it's supposed to do well and makes life a misery for fat teams. That's what makes it better then B rank - which seems to be the rank of "goodstuff, but has issues" mons. That said, it faces stiff competition from stuff that does its job in ways teams might appreciate more (such as actually having a speed tier, or not taking up the mega slot), and it doesn't really stand out in an offensive/aids goth scarf meta in the first place. B+, the rank of "Ye Olde Underrated Threat" seems just fine for it.

 

[micahclay]

Mega Swampert should drop from B+ to B. Not only is it slightly inferior to the other B+ rain sweepers, but also should not be in the same rank as them by virtue of having the opportunity cost of using a mega stone.

Hawlucha should drop from B to B-. Having dual flying/fighting STAB seems incredible, especially with Unburden, until you consider how few setup opportunities it has against the most common Pokemon used in OU at the moment. Without the boost, it's pretty weak, especially when compared to other flying types or fighting types. It is incredibly scary post-boost, but the difficulty in finding an opportunity to boost makes it less useful than it seems.

Mega Gallade should drop from B+ to B. Mega Gallade is a good Pokemon. The issue is that there are multiple fighting types who perform better than it does. Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham serve as incredible wallbreakers, Mega Lopunny is amazing against offense and has an amazing speed tier, and Keldeo does what Keldeo has always done. The issue is not that Mega Gallade is bad, so to speak. It's more so that whatever role M-Gallade is trying to fill, some other fighting type does it better.

Emboar should rise from D to C-. It is an incredibly strong wall breaker with Reckless and a great Mega Sableye/Weavile/Bisharp check. It has a few decent sets it can run effectively (Scarf, Band, LO, etc.).

 

[bludz]

So I know we have a slate but I think most of those have been touched on pretty heavily at this point so I have some nominations.

Victini B+ -> B
I think the reason it was B+ in the first place was the power of CB. Correct me if I'm wrong. Band isn't really that good any more with Tank Chomp everywhere, plus the defensive utility its typing offers (checking Zard Y, Mega Metagross which are less common threats now) has sorta fallen prey to the metagame trend of dark types on the rise. Scarftar is as popular as ever as well which is one of the best checks / revenge killers of Victini. The lure sets are cool and all but just on the premise of being rocks weak and not all the powerful I don't see them as enough to keep it where it is.

Mega Latias B+ -> B
So it did already drop because it lost its main niche, but building with this is more annoying than ever with the aforementioned rise of Dark types. Not to mention the qualities of being a Keldeo and Zard Y check aren't really as useful in this metagame where Keldeo is held a bit more in check and Zard Y is less common.

Empoleon B -> B-
I guess this is sort of a weird nomination because Empoleon has this undeniable niche in its typing + hazard control prowess. Problem being that trying to fit both SR + Defog onto one set applies too much pressure to do its job (whereas although it also pressures say Skarmory, at least it has Roost to mitigate this pressure somewhat). Granted, each individually is still nice but it doesn't really help when teams are already struggling to check electric types these days and without something like a Shuca / Chople berry it's vulnerable to a lot of coverage moves or common stuff like Sand Rush Excadrill. Running one of these just makes it easier to wear down and tougher for it to do its job. I don't really think it's as effective a defensive mon as Tangrowth or Gastrodon despite the hazard utility and typing.

Kyurem C+ -> C
Honestly never understood why this was ranked so high. I have been told what its niche is but it seems so damn specific that I find it hard to believe it's worthy of C+ rank. Is it really as good as things like Entei, Cobalion, Metagross and Seismitoad? I'd put it more on the level of C ranks honestly and could see it lower, but my lack of experience with it might have to do with that.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Conkeldurr C+ -> B-
Conkeldurr is ranked a little too low on my opinion. It is a decent threat in OU and is one of the game's best Assault Vest users, and makes a good switch in to status. It is a great OU tank that can run AV, Bulk Up, and even a defensive set and can perform well. It is obviously one of the most brilliantly designed Pokemon, and it's colorful movepool and ability to switch into status make it a good bulky offense Mon. However, it has several drawbacks; many Pokemon that effectively use Will'O'Wisp in OU do not fear the Guts Boost, like Talonflame, and Mega Sableye. It may not be the best, but in my opinion it is much better than some of the stuff in C Rank.

 

[cyberpunkbanana]

Conk is definitely a mon that has not gotten any better in the transition to ORAS. Bulky teams do not care about it at all with walls like sableye and hippo everywhere that set up/set rocks in its face. Furthermore offense, the playstyle that conk would normally have the best match-up against, is riddled with torn-t's and latis which really only need a little bit of prior damage before breaking through the av set. Azu is also more popular, and having a conk on your team only makes finding a switch in to that monster all the more difficult. Also chomp is a thing, which while doesn't like taking ice punches, can take one if it means a dead conk.

 

[Freeroamer]

Er talking of stuff dropping from higher ranks I'd like to suggest Heatran drops from A+ to A, I really find very few reasons to use this thing anymore because a ton of Pokemon that weren't popular in the past have become more so and have greatly diminished Heatran's niche. Most teams will much prefer the role compression one of the ground types have to offer in regards to being the teams designated SR user meaning it doesn't even excel at this role anymore. Looking through just S and A+ it struggles against the vast majority and even against reasonably positive match ups for it such as Scizor and Clefable they have ways around it or circumstances that means Heatran isn't the ideal option for switching in throughout the course of a game. The Magma Storm set is cool and all and undoubtedly puts in work vs defensive teams but it puts in very little vs current offense and if this can be considered Heatran's best set currently, that in itself says to me this mon isn't A+. Honourable mention for Scarf as that isn't terrible either but honestly I find this mon is living on a hype that it doesn't really deserve anymore. I know this is undoubtedly gonna be controversial and ppl will argue with me but please remember A isn't exactly calling Heatran shit, just reflecting that it isn't as good as it once was which I think is a fair assessment of it currently.

 

[Srn]

Ok well I didn't really wanna use up a post clearing shit up since I'm so close to 1k and I still havent decided on a team to RMT but hey i'm the one that really brought about this shitstorm so lemme try to settle it down.

Over the last few pages I've seen people say "mega hera's good bc ____ but it's always been good because of _____ why raise now?"
Some people nailed it but I don't get why we can't just read the first first fucking line of my original post

another off-topic nom i wanna make:
Mega hera B+-->A-

The main reasoning for this raise, i believe, is mostly because bulky lando-t has dropped harshly in usage and bulky chomp is replacing it. It's not too hard to see why mega heracross benefits from this:
252 Atk Mega Heracross Pin Missile (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 215-260 (51.1 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252 Atk Mega Heracross Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 95-115 (24.8 - 30.1%) -- approx. 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Yeah sue me i used bold but when y'all can't read i guess i have to.
In case you guys didn't get the message the second time, that is my MAIN REASONING for moving it up. That is my ONLY reasoning for moving it up. The rest of the post was just a basic summary on its pros/cons.
tbh i've always thought that the upper ranks are inflated and I have no problem with mega hera not moving up, but in the same rank as mega gallade lol please no. As long as mega hera is in the same rank with mons that are as effective as it (maero, volc, diggers, terrak), then i'm perfectly fine.

I'm not gonna comment on the whole ou council fiasco that popped up throughout this cuz henry said so.

So lets get moving with some noms down:

noms down

So I know we have a slate but I think most of those have been touched on pretty heavily at this point so I have some nominations.

Victini B+ -> B
I think the reason it was B+ in the first place was the power of CB. Correct me if I'm wrong. Band isn't really that good any more with Tank Chomp everywhere, plus the defensive utility its typing offers (checking Zard Y, Mega Metagross which are less common threats now) has sorta fallen prey to the metagame trend of dark types on the rise. Scarftar is as popular as ever as well which is one of the best checks / revenge killers of Victini. The lure sets are cool and all but just on the premise of being rocks weak and not all the powerful I don't see them as enough to keep it where it is.

*corrects because wrong*
victini, i believe, rose to B+ because of its mixed sets. People love to orgasm over bulky chomp but mixed tini has a really clean way of dealing with it that you glossed over:
252+ SpA Expert Belt Victini Glaciate vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Garchomp: 326-389 (77.6 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And they have quite a bit of natural power too:
252+ SpA Victini Blue Flare vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 177-208 (44.9 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
coming close to 2hko'ing clefable without LO/band/specs/any plate is pretty damn impressive.

However, i do overall believe that it should drop because a large part of what makes victini good is still u-turn/v-create/bolt strike games and tank chomp+scarf tar still crap on those so it can stay B.

Mega Latias B+ -> B
So it did already drop because it lost its main niche, but building with this is more annoying than ever with the aforementioned rise of Dark types. Not to mention the qualities of being a Keldeo and Zard Y check aren't really as useful in this metagame where Keldeo is held a bit more in check and Zard Y is less common.

Empoleon B -> B-
I guess this is sort of a weird nomination because Empoleon has this undeniable niche in its typing + hazard control prowess. Problem being that trying to fit both SR + Defog onto one set applies too much pressure to do its job (whereas although it also pressures say Skarmory, at least it has Roost to mitigate this pressure somewhat). Granted, each individually is still nice but it doesn't really help when teams are already struggling to check electric types these days and without something like a Shuca / Chople berry it's vulnerable to a lot of coverage moves or common stuff like Sand Rush Excadrill. Running one of these just makes it easier to wear down and tougher for it to do its job. I don't really think it's as effective a defensive mon as Tangrowth or Gastrodon despite the hazard utility and typing.

More or less agree. Empoleon isn't as bad as you say it is but it should still move down.

Kyurem C+ -> C
Honestly never understood why this was ranked so high. I have been told what its niche is but it seems so damn specific that I find it hard to believe it's worthy of C+ rank. Is it really as good as things like Entei, Cobalion, Metagross and Seismitoad? I'd put it more on the level of C ranks honestly and could see it lower, but my lack of experience with it might have to do with that.

Yeah, it is.
This is mainly because of stall's inability to break it, rather than slowly chip at it. 404 hp subs+pressure outstalls chansey(and pretty much anything else) and ice beam+epower retains decent natural power against teams that aren't stall.
However, an often overlooked set that really gives it an edge over kyu-b is the specs set, which drops dracos that kyu-b could only dream of. It's as good as seismitoad/entei and certainly better than cobalion.

Some other I think should move down:
M-pert B+-->B tons of reasoning already shown for this
M-sharp B-->B- after messing around with it quite a bit, i can sufficiently say that it requires tons of support to get a sweep off correctly. Everybody's so prepared for bisharp and weavile that the list of shit you have to weaken just never ends. On top of that you want to run adamant to have some power but then want jolly because m-zam/aero still outpace you after +1. It's a huge struggle to get a proper sweep going and its really not worth the hassle, despite its super powerful crunch.
Starmie A- ---> B+ offensive sets last a few turns at best because they're so frail and defensive sets struggle to even keep rocks off the field vs tank chomp without ice beam, i find that both sets are pretty subpar and it's only saving grace is rapid spin. B+ seems like a better fit to me. There are plenty of checks even offense can use (kyu-b, azu, scarftar to name a few) and even balance can pressure it easily and stall can spinblock with msab. It can go down but B+ is a good fit for it.
Gallade B+-->B reasoning has been thrown around all over the place already.
Dragalge B+ --->B strong and tspikes can be cool but definitely not B+ worthy.
Dragonite B+ --> B so much fucking clefable
Anything below that i haven't seen/used much of to make a great opinion on
Already posted why cobal should move way way down tho lol.

 

[Maple Storyus]

Pokemon nerds.....

 

[Clair]

So I know we have a slate but I think most of those have been touched on pretty heavily at this point so I have some nominations.

Victini B+ -> B
I think the reason it was B+ in the first place was the power of CB. Correct me if I'm wrong. Band isn't really that good any more with Tank Chomp everywhere, plus the defensive utility its typing offers (checking Zard Y, Mega Metagross which are less common threats now) has sorta fallen prey to the metagame trend of dark types on the rise. Scarftar is as popular as ever as well which is one of the best checks / revenge killers of Victini. The lure sets are cool and all but just on the premise of being rocks weak and not all the powerful I don't see them as enough to keep it where it is.

Mega Latias B+ -> B
So it did already drop because it lost its main niche, but building with this is more annoying than ever with the aforementioned rise of Dark types. Not to mention the qualities of being a Keldeo and Zard Y check aren't really as useful in this metagame where Keldeo is held a bit more in check and Zard Y is less common.

Empoleon B -> B-
I guess this is sort of a weird nomination because Empoleon has this undeniable niche in its typing + hazard control prowess. Problem being that trying to fit both SR + Defog onto one set applies too much pressure to do its job (whereas although it also pressures say Skarmory, at least it has Roost to mitigate this pressure somewhat). Granted, each individually is still nice but it doesn't really help when teams are already struggling to check electric types these days and without something like a Shuca / Chople berry it's vulnerable to a lot of coverage moves or common stuff like Sand Rush Excadrill. Running one of these just makes it easier to wear down and tougher for it to do its job. I don't really think it's as effective a defensive mon as Tangrowth or Gastrodon despite the hazard utility and typing.

Kyurem C+ -> C
Honestly never understood why this was ranked so high. I have been told what its niche is but it seems so damn specific that I find it hard to believe it's worthy of C+ rank. Is it really as good as things like Entei, Cobalion, Metagross and Seismitoad? I'd put it more on the level of C ranks honestly and could see it lower, but my lack of experience with it might have to do with that.

M-Latias sure, drop it. You can run physically defensive Reflect to not really care about Pursuit trapping, but at that point it's just a niche defensive Pokemon, certainly no better than stuff like Gastro. Stored Power is bad with Darks everywhere, gimmick sets like Psycho Shift or Whirlpool-trap have lost effectiveness too as the meta becomes more fast-paced, and Hoopa also hurts its viability.

Agreeing with Empoleon down to B- as well...just in terms of threat coverage there's not much it actually beats reliably between its average typing and lack of power. The niche is there, it's just not a good one, and I haven't seen it used effectively in a long time.

Kyurem I'd lean towards keeping in C+. The SubRoost set is the most relevant one, of course, and it has lost some effectiveness in the more offensive metagame (although I'd argue that the current team composition of typical offense is incredibly weak to Ice in general), still struggles with M-Scizor / Clefable / Suicune / Manaphy etc. That said, I've always felt like it's an underappreciated mon. Being able to pressure Goth stall is a significant niche in and of itself, and it wrecks certain balance builds while not being dead weight against offense. Specs Kyu is also pretty reasonable for countering Manaphy (Modest DM OHKO's ~70% of the time), switching into Scalds safely and just generally having no good switchins outside Chansey.

Victini shouldn't be considered for moving down just yet imo. The mixed or full special set is really good, and its typing defensively is a mixed bag when it checks M-Gross, M-Gard, YZard and so on. Even defensive sets with Wisp are solid paired with M-Sab.

Oh yeah and I completely agree with everything Srn just said, with the exception of Dragonite moving down, which I think is still good enough against standard offense to justify B+.

 

[Alfalfa]

A couple of weeks ago, I attempted to bring back the Latias discussion, for I wanted it to drop to A-, but Henry did not agree with the initial reasoning I gave him, which was mostly a metric comparing it to Starmie, who I viewed as better than Latias at that time (and I still do, but Henry does not agree). I would like to bring back this discussion, for I think Latias is really out of place in A Rank and deserves to drop to A- Rank, and I would like for any points I have not covered to be addressed or added to.

Here was Henry's response to my original reasoning:

make another post if u want about it and ill see. the second post by bludz is kind of irrelevant to whether it should drop or not (his main metric is a damage calc with surf..). the first post doesnt factor in latias' ability to function as an electric type check with some hp evs (72), the natural bulk it has over latios, and utility it provides for offense, none of which starmie has.

And here is my counter-argument to Henry's points:

The utility it provides for offense is not as significant as it used to be with Spikes being more valuable than they were when Latias dropped to A Rank. While Latias can function as an Electric check, most Electrics will be paired with teammates that can take advantage of Latias anyways (not as necessary as Keldeo or Zard Y, but still important). In reality, the only thing Latias possesses right now that is valuable is Healing Wish, since the value of Rapid Spin is in higher demand.

The natural bulk it has over Latios really isn't that relevant either because Latias still fails to beat most of the Pokemon it is supposed to check. As stated before, most teams featuring mons checked by Latias are paired with Pursuit trappers or other Pokemon that take advantage of it, and the natural bulk is rarely ever worth the greater power Latios possesses. Latias is one of the easier Pokemon to take advantage of, as aside from Draco Meteor, it does not possess much to avoid being set up on. There is really no reason for Latias to be in A Rank, especially when Pokemon like Skarmory and Tyranitar are a lot better at the moment.

Please, if you can, add on to this discussion.

 

[thesecondbest]

Drops imo:
Heatran - I mean this got an awful response last time. But Heatran just gets worn down too easily and
Megabro - Half the time you don't mega. You can try to call this a good thing by saying "Yeah, it's so flexible!" but then why not use another mega? The meta is too specially oriented for this guy - and the few physical attackers are dark types. IK you can recover off a knock off but what if the bisharp sword dances on you?
Celebi - Outclassed by mew unless you specifically want a keldeo counter. Quad weakness to bug hurts and grass typing doesn't really do much otherwise. But now that mew is in A maybe you can disagree. Like I said this is all my opinion.
Dragalge - Way too narrow of a niche. Do you really need TSpikes? Easily the best at that role but it seems way too slim. And since it doesn't have recovery, it gets whittle too easily so it doesn't really beat clef/alt.
Gallade - skill swap sucks. This guy has been overrated for far too long. I know medicham rose, but I'd rather use mega Chomp than this crap.
Kabutops - Worse than kingdra and the rankings should reflect that.
Pert - Takes up a mega slot.
Hawlucha - i've tried using this many a time but it's too underwhelming and frail.
Chesnaught - What? B-?? This thing is nowhere near that rank. The typing isn't that good even though it can sponge knock off since it can't even switch into weavile.
Lucario - I know it can go either setup but it's just too slow. If its Espeed were Stab then this would be a huge threat, but besides sponging knock off it doesn't do much. It really has a hard time setting up. But it does beat Clef Tran teams, so maybe it can stay.
Tentacruel - lol a spinner not called exca or starmie. It doesn't even have recovery! And if I wanted tspikes, which I don't, I'm using dragalge. No.
Mega blastoise - I actually like Blastoise, but it isn't C+ material.
Houndoom - What. Does. This. Do.
Hoopa C - It's like a worse chandelure and chandelure is bad. Like in UU it can run nasty plot and claim that but here it's only niche is in Trick Room or as a spinblocker (lol). And it loses to exca so rip. I think unrank it unless you can prove that it has a niche Hoopa-U doesn't outclass.
I mean I know some of these will be unpopular but tell me what you think.
(and I would add Clef to the list but then you would really kill me lol)

 

[Knuckstrike]

Er talking of stuff dropping from higher ranks I'd like to suggest Heatran drops from A+ to A, I really find very few reasons to use this thing anymore because a ton of Pokemon that weren't popular in the past have become more so and have greatly diminished Heatran's niche. Most teams will much prefer the role compression one of the ground types have to offer in regards to being the teams designated SR user meaning it doesn't even excel at this role anymore. Looking through just S and A+ it struggles against the vast majority and even against reasonably positive match ups for it such as Scizor and Clefable they have ways around it or circumstances that means Heatran isn't the ideal option for switching in throughout the course of a game. The Magma Storm set is cool and all and undoubtedly puts in work vs defensive teams but it puts in very little vs current offense and if this can be considered Heatran's best set currently, that in itself says to me this mon isn't A+. Honourable mention for Scarf as that isn't terrible either but honestly I find this mon is living on a hype that it doesn't really deserve anymore. I know this is undoubtedly gonna be controversial and ppl will argue with me but please remember A isn't exactly calling Heatran shit, just reflecting that it isn't as good as it once was which I think is a fair assessment of it currently.

Just stopping the hype everything down train here for a moment. Heatran's power was never to perform well against all threats in the top of the OU metagame. What heatran does best of any pokemon is hard-countering a group of great mons (e.g. talonflame, lati, ferro, clefable, zardy, venu) and serving as a great utility mon. Many pokemon such as altaria and zardx rely on a single coverage move to beat it (often eq) and it's been increasingly difficult to find a spot for earthquake on such mons. On bulkier teams it's never a free switch as a toxic/protect/switch will rack up 40% damage while getting two leftovers back. It's also the most reliable stealth rock setter in the OU tier right now with enough bulk to survive even focus blasts. That it's not a niche-worty pokemon can be disproven by the fact that heatran was one of the top 6 most picked pokemon in both SPL and the Smogon Tour which says a lot tbh. I've personally not used offensive heatran on a serious team so I wouldn't know too much about its strengths but its pivot set alone deserves a rank like A+.
Even though heatran will always struggle against ground types and certain coverage moves, the consistency of heatran should not be underestimated. Heatran is almost always an excellent choice for a balance team. And who has room for hp ground on clef anyway.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Pokemon nerds.....

Welcome to Smogon. You're going to see a lot of those things.

Drops imo:
Heatran - I mean this got an awful response last time. But Heatran just gets worn down too easily and
Megabro - Half the time you don't mega. You can try to call this a good thing by saying "Yeah, it's so flexible!" but then why not use another mega? The meta is too specially oriented for this guy - and the few physical attackers are dark types. IK you can recover off a knock off but what if the bisharp sword dances on you?
Celebi - Outclassed by mew unless you specifically want a keldeo counter. Quad weakness to bug hurts and grass typing doesn't really do much otherwise. But now that mew is in A maybe you can disagree. Like I said this is all my opinion.
Dragalge - Way too narrow of a niche. Do you really need TSpikes? Easily the best at that role but it seems way too slim. And since it doesn't have recovery, it gets whittle too easily so it doesn't really beat clef/alt.
Gallade - skill swap sucks. This guy has been overrated for far too long. I know medicham rose, but I'd rather use mega Chomp than this crap.
Kabutops - Worse than kingdra and the rankings should reflect that.
Pert - Takes up a mega slot.
Hawlucha - i've tried using this many a time but it's too underwhelming and frail.
Chesnaught - What? B-?? This thing is nowhere near that rank. The typing isn't that good even though it can sponge knock off since it can't even switch into weavile.
Lucario - I know it can go either setup but it's just too slow. If its Espeed were Stab then this would be a huge threat, but besides sponging knock off it doesn't do much. It really has a hard time setting up. But it does beat Clef Tran teams, so maybe it can stay.
Tentacruel - lol a spinner not called exca or starmie. It doesn't even have recovery! And if I wanted tspikes, which I don't, I'm using dragalge. No.
Mega blastoise - I actually like Blastoise, but it isn't C+ material.
Houndoom - What. Does. This. Do.
Hoopa C - It's like a worse chandelure and chandelure is bad. Like in UU it can run nasty plot and claim that but here it's only niche is in Trick Room or as a spinblocker (lol). And it loses to exca so rip. I think unrank it unless you can prove that it has a niche Hoopa-U doesn't outclass.
I mean I know some of these will be unpopular but tell me what you think.
(and I would add Clef to the list but then you would really kill me lol)

Hoopa-Confined has very little use in OU, if at all. I say drop to C- or even D Rank. It's not a bad Pokemon, but it's typing basically leaves it vulnerable to almost every Special Attacker in OU (Shadow Ball), and Sucker Punch, Knock Off, and Pursuit exist. It's very hard to let it switch in safely, and it's low speed means that it may not get a chance to attack at all before dying to a Physical Attack. Yeah, Bisharp cannot switch into it always because of Focus Miss, but basically any wallbreaker and any Pokemon with Shadow Ball, or even any good physical sweeper will not have trouble with Hoopa-Confined.