Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[Assaltwaffle]

This will be the last time I comment on this but I think the whole legitimate resource thing is fine and fair until you get people establishing their own ignorance when it comes to a lot of the lower ranked stuff and commenting on stuff they shouldn't be commenting on. Yes I mean this 100% whole heartedly when I say that so if you're salty about that comment then so be it. Lots of the justification people use on lower rank stuff when advocating a drop in most cases is saying "why would I use this" or "it's shit" so I apologize if I didn't think establishing an E rank and saying we're gonna be doing that was the right course of action when I felt it was better to start it up behind closed doors and then people felt free to comment on it, which they did with a lot of disapproval. I don't think the name would've mattered and at this point I'm fine with just people nomming stuff to D. Also it wasn't one member it was at least half of them that helped with this but I'm just gonna put the nail on the coffin with that one seeing as how the vocal minority found it such a travesty to begin with and finds it necessary to stay vocal about these things till the very end so just gonna drop the subject and move on from this. Thanks for understanding.

I just reread my post and realized I may sound antagonistic. When I said that it was you guys just doing it b/c you two say so, it was supposed to sound like that was common opinion, not my own. I am sure there is much more that goes into it than just like 10 pms, yet this was not directly stated and threw some people for a loop. Sorry if I sounded hostile, that was not my intention in the slightest.

 

[thesecondbest]

im just laughing at how this whole e rank thing has gathered more attention than the movement of keldeo to A+ (which I am a part of btw)
can we just stop talking about it and get onto the relevant stuff
thx

 

[Assaltwaffle]

im just laughing at how this whole e rank thing has gathered more attention than the movement of keldeo to A+ (which I am a part of btw)
can we just stop talking about it and get onto the relevant stuff
thx

I support Keldeo for A+ as well, but I can see how the addition of a new tier generates more talk than moving one poke around.

 

[Aquarium1]

After looking at some of the D rank pokemon I feel like a few of don't belong.

D -> Unranked

Cloyster basically walled by every steel and water type in the tier. Its pretty much useless until it gets a shell smash up and after a shell smash leave you easily revenged killed by mach/bullet punch. Cloyster fails as a hazard lead think to mega sableye and is outclassed in the role anyway. I don't even see how this thing is suppose to late game sweep to be honest.

D -> Unranked

I don't understand why you would you honchkrow when you could use talonflame or even staraptor. I don't see what specific task honchkrow fulfills that can't be done with talonflame or staraptor.

D -> Unranked

Again another case of why would I use shaymin when I can use celebi? Seriously I kinda curious why this was even rank when better grass type like celebi, amoongus, or even trangrowth exist?

D -> Unranked

Back in xy I could see how chandelure would be D rank as it was a pretty decent stall breaker and checks to pokes like Charizard y, Heatran, clefable, and venusaur. In the certain meta I don't think its worth using since

On to a pokemon that I actually feel like belongs in rank D and I'm kind of surprised it didn't exist all ready.

Unranked -> D

Mega glalie is one of the strongest wall breaker in the tier. The combination of Double edge, Freeze dry, and Earthquake is has basically perfect coverage on the entire tier plus with explosion your basically guaranteed a killed. Obviously it not the greatest mega evolution but it definitely fill a niche of being one of one the best wall breaker in the tier.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

After looking at some of the D rank pokemon I feel like a few of don't belong.

D -> Unranked

Cloyster basically walled by every steel and water type in the tier. Its pretty much useless until it gets a shell smash up and after a shell smash leave you easily revenged killed by mach/bullet punch. Cloyster fails as a hazard lead think to mega sableye and is outclassed in the role anyway. I don't even see how this thing is suppose to late game sweep to be honest.

D -> Unranked

I don't understand why you would you honchkrow when you could use talonflame or even staraptor. I don't see what specific task honchkrow fulfills that can't be done with talonflame or staraptor.

D -> Unranked

Again another case of why would I use shaymin when I can use celebi? Seriously I kinda curious why this was even rank when better grass type like celebi, amoongus, or even trangrowth exist?

D -> Unranked

Back in xy I could see how chandelure would be D rank as it was a pretty decent stall breaker and checks to pokes like Charizard y, Heatran, clefable, and venusaur. In the certain meta I don't think its worth using since

On to a pokemon that I actually feel like belongs in rank D and I'm kind of surprised it didn't exist all ready.

Unranked -> D

Mega glalie is one of the strongest wall breaker in the tier. The combination of Double edge, Freeze dry, and Earthquake is has basically perfect coverage on the entire tier plus with explosion your basically guaranteed a killed. Obviously it not the greatest mega evolution but it definitely fill a niche of being one of one the best wall breaker in the tier.

Mega glalie already got removed.

EDIT: oops read it wrong

But if you want to,know why cloister is still D here

Cloyster: Stays in D "Well Cloyster should stay D because offensive Ice types are really threatening in this meta, albeit falling short to some bulky waters and a handful of priority. Shell Smash augments its less that spectacular offense and speed, being able to outspeed the likes of scarfkeldeo after 1 (should run jolly). There really is not much solid ice resists in this tier, so its coverage moves aren't really necessitated in its sweep. I myself have been using a life orb set on a hazard stack ho team that was able to sweep provided SR and at least 1 layer of spike was up. hydro pump being able to take care of steels and explosion to ohko the things you couldn't 1 shot such as slowbro. other than that, some priority moves may befall it but it does well with what it has. Sash kings rock natural gift rapid spin tspikes are also viable options to run on the mighty oyster." - ben gay

 

[Assaltwaffle]

After looking at some of the D rank pokemon I feel like a few of don't belong.

D -> Unranked

Cloyster basically walled by every steel and water type in the tier. Its pretty much useless until it gets a shell smash up and after a shell smash leave you easily revenged killed by mach/bullet punch. Cloyster fails as a hazard lead think to mega sableye and is outclassed in the role anyway. I don't even see how this thing is suppose to late game sweep to be honest.

D -> Unranked

I don't understand why you would you honchkrow when you could use talonflame or even staraptor. I don't see what specific task honchkrow fulfills that can't be done with talonflame or staraptor.

D -> Unranked

Again another case of why would I use shaymin when I can use celebi? Seriously I kinda curious why this was even rank when better grass type like celebi, amoongus, or even trangrowth exist?

D -> Unranked

Back in xy I could see how chandelure would be D rank as it was a pretty decent stall breaker and checks to pokes like Charizard y, Heatran, clefable, and venusaur. In the certain meta I don't think its worth using since

On to a pokemon that I actually feel like belongs in rank D and I'm kind of surprised it didn't exist all ready.

Unranked -> D

Mega glalie is one of the strongest wall breaker in the tier. The combination of Double edge, Freeze dry, and Earthquake is has basically perfect coverage on the entire tier plus with explosion your basically guaranteed a killed. Obviously it not the greatest mega evolution but it definitely fill a niche of being one of one the best wall breaker in the tier.

M-Glalie: D > Unranked "Niche mega. Can work but isn’t even a necessity in comparison to other ice types. Bye Bye M-Glalie. You won’t be missed clearly hehe." - AM
Not much but it sums up why Glalie is gone. There is basically no reason to justify using this as your Mega when its main goal is to explode. I doubt it will be put back.

 

[xzern]

An E rank? There's honestly no reason to add more shitmons to the viability rankings... if anything, we should be cleaning up the rankings, getting rid of random stuff thats either entirely outclassed or super niche. The only reason I could imagine wanting an E rank is to emphasize that "you should not use these pokemon, they are bad!"

Noivern: C- -> D/Unranked
Noivern is entirely outclassed by Tornadus-T. They have almost the exact same base speed, however, Noivern's offensive stats are literally poop. There's absolutely no reason to use Noivern's base 97 SpA when Tornadus-T boasts 110 base SpA and a wider variety of coverage options in its arsenal. Apparently, its only niche over Tornadus-T seems to be Specs + Switcheroo? If this niche is really that important, it should be kept in D, but I believe that it should just fall off the ranks.

After looking at some of the D rank pokemon I feel like a few of don't belong.

Unranked -> D

Mega glalie is one of the strongest wall breaker in the tier. The combination of Double edge, Freeze dry, and Earthquake is has basically perfect coverage on the entire tier plus with explosion your basically guaranteed a killed. Obviously it not the greatest mega evolution but it definitely fill a niche of being one of one the best wall breaker in the tier.

I can agree with most of your nominations, but I feel that this one just isn't too sound. Like I said in my post to unrank Glalie when it was originally D rank, it's outclassed almost entirely by any other ice type you will find in this tier. Furthermore, there are multiple pokemon that do a better job of wallbreaking, with options ranging from Kyurem-B to Staraptor.

 

[heritage]

After looking at some of the D rank pokemon I feel like a few of don't belong.

D -> Unranked
I don't understand why you would you honchkrow when you could use talonflame or even staraptor. I don't see what specific task honchkrow fulfills that can't be done with talonflame or staraptor.

Don't really care about the others (Glalie sucks) but
Honchkrow hits crazy hard, a lot harder than Talonflame, not to mention thanks to Superpower it can break through bulky Rock-type Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Heatran a hell of a lot better than Talonflame can, which is the main reason to use it over Talonflame. Staraptor has the issue of not having any priority (lol quick attack) to work with, not to mention that Honchkrow can go mixed with Heat Wave to hit Skarmory a lot better, which also deals with Ferrothorn so it doesn't have to take recoil damage. After a Moxie boost, literally nothing switches into Honchkrow. It can really easily steamroll though so many different teams and forces a ton of mind games with Sucker Punch. It's super hard to play around, especially with slower teams, and even with certain offensive teams, and it definitely warrants a D ranking.

e: whats spelling

 

[Aquarium1]

M-Glalie: D > Unranked "Niche mega. Can work but isn’t even a necessity in comparison to other ice types. Bye Bye M-Glalie. You won’t be missed clearly hehe." - AM
Not much but it sums up why Glalie is gone. There is basically no reason to justify using this as your Mega when its main goal is to explode. I doubt it will be put back.

Damn that was fast. Yeah but mega glalie mean goal isn't to explode it to wall break. Even without explosion its still pretty damn powerful(I don't know how to do the box thing so sorry I can't put the calc in them)
252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Mega Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 206-246 (52.2 - 62.4%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Mega Glalie Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Thick Fat Mega Venusaur: 168-198 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Some of the tier best defensive pokemon get destoried by mega-glalie. The thing that do wall it like mega scizor can be beat if you run hp fire or like just pair glalie with magnezone.

 

[Aquarium1]

Don't really care about the others (Glalie sucks) but
Honchkrow hits crazy hard, a lot harder than Talonflame, not to mention thanks to Superpower it can break through bulky Rock-type Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Heatran a hell of a lot better than Talonflame can, which is the main reason to use it over Talonflame. Staraptor has the issue of not having any priority (lol quick attack) to work with, not to mention that Honchkrow can go mixed with Heat Wave to hit Skarmory a lot better, which also deals with Ferrothorn so it doesn't have to take recoil damage. After a Moxie boost, literally nothing switches into Honchkrow. It can really easily steamroll though so many different teams and forces a ton of mind games with Sucker Punch. It's super hard to play around, especially with slower teams, and even with certain offensive teams, and it defiantly warrants a D ranking.

Yeah I guess I see why honckcrow could deserve a D ranking.

 

[teamsnickers]

I think that mega abomasnow(Obama) is worthy of D rank....
It has a niche as a nice anti meta poke, murkrow jupiter made a great team with him and im proud to say that I helped him with it and he got to round 5 of a stour with that team.. Its a underrated mon that fits well on certain teams and actually has a great movepool with above average coverage and priorty (ice shard eq blizzard giga wood hammer sd) and since no teams prepare for it can cause havoc and play a variety of rolls on your team, wallbreaker,trick room sweeper etc

Also 132 attack and special attack combined with a very modest 90/105/105 bulk gives mega obama pretty decent stats

IMO

REPLAYS of murkrow
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-229175340
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-227811371
TBH i think its a c- to c mon but baby steps

 

[Aquarium1]

I can agree with most of your nominations, but I feel that this one just isn't too sound. Like I said in my post to unrank Glalie when it was originally D rank, it's outclassed almost entirely by any other ice type you will find in this tier. Furthermore, there are multiple pokemon that do a better job of wallbreaking, with options ranging from Kyurem-B to Staraptor.

Yeah there are some arguably better options but I'm not nomination for D ranking. It does fill a role in the tier and there are reason to use it over Kyruem-B like ice shard freeze-dry and of course explosion.

 

[Hellochi]

I think that mega abomasnow(Obama) is worthy of D rank....
It has a niche as a nice anti meta poke, murkrow jupiter made a great team with him and im proud to say that I helped him with it and he got to round 5 of a stour with that team.. Its a underrated mon that fits well on certain teams and actually has a great movepool with above average coverage and priorty (ice shard eq blizzard giga wood hammer sd) and since no teams prepare for it can cause havoc and play a variety of rolls on your team, wallbreaker,trick room sweeper etc

Also 132 attack and special attack combined with a very modest 90/105/105 bulk gives mega obama pretty decent stats

I mean, without stating the obvious flaws with Mega Abomasnow, (Bad typing, slow, sr weak, etc.) That is all on paper, if you had good replays showing Mega Abomasnow doing work then it would help your nom quite a bit, as not many have actually used mega abomasnow.

 

[Kurona]

Yeah there are some arguably better options but I'm not nomination for D ranking. It does fill a role in the tier and there are reason to use it over Kyruem-B like ice shard freeze-dry and of course explosion.

Funnily enough the poster above just stated it for another poster; but if you want something nommed for D then you'd really need some good replays to back up your statements. Show why Mega Glalie works in practise and not just in theory; we all know it hits hard and such, but we need to see in realistic scenarios where that would come in useful especially considering Mega Glalie's massive opportunity cost.

 

[gvmgvm40]

D -> Unranked

Again another case of why would I use shaymin when I can use celebi? Seriously I kinda curious why this was even rank when better grass type like celebi, amoongus, or even trangrowth exist?

Try it sometime if you want, it's better than most of the stuff in D. Shaymin plays more as an offensive grass type rather than a defensive one. It's more comparable to Serperior than to Celebi, Amoongus or Tangrowth. It has a better movepool than Serperior does: Psychic and Earth Power lets it plow through Venusaur/Amoonguss and Heatran respectively. It's bulkier than Serperior and can switch into EQ/Scald/Volt Switches better, plus it has semi-reliable recovery in Natural Cure + Rest. Seed Flare's SpDef drop chance makes it hard to handle for fat teams. On the downside it's slower and it can't sweep and wallbreak as effectively as Serperior can, but it's a perfectly legitimate choice for some teams. It's fine in D.

 

[Creator of Chaos]

laugh at me if you think this is silly but I really think Keldeo should drop to A+. It was already contreversial to begin with going to S and while keldeo can still rip unprepared teams a new one which player's actually let that happen?. Unlike the other S ranks who have very few checks and counters (Metagross, Altaria, Lando I) or are Extremly versitile (Clefable) Keldeo is stoped cold by many pokemon as far down as C rank. Venusuar, Azumarill, Amonguss, Slowking, The recently ranked Roserade and basically any fairy with an ounce of offencive presence can shut down most of keldeos sets regardless of move's. Its trapped and killed by gothitelle (a pokemon the other s ranks aren't to bothered by). Celebi and latis trolls it to. Lopunny, Talonflame, Dragonite can all revenge assuming no sub. Really the list of pokemon keldeo cant pass is huge compared to the other S rankers and considering those threats are growing in number it should drop to reflect the changing meta. Thats all I'll say on it.

Yay for my favourite pokemon Roserade getting ranked but I would like to know what actually got her ranked and what her main set is. Just curiosity since i want to use her lol

Edit: Pardon the the tardiness im on a mobile

 

[Karxrida]

After looking at some of the D rank pokemon I feel like a few of don't belong.

D -> Unranked

Cloyster basically walled by every steel and water type in the tier. Its pretty much useless until it gets a shell smash up and after a shell smash leave you easily revenged killed by mach/bullet punch. Cloyster fails as a hazard lead think to mega sableye and is outclassed in the role anyway. I don't even see how this thing is suppose to late game sweep to be honest.

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 194-230 (80.4 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What a delicious revenge kill by the most powerful priority you could use against it. Also Ice Shard is a thing to prevent Thundurus from stopping your sweep, with the added bonus of preventing this revenge.

I already my case for Cloyster earlier on, don't drop it.

 

[giovanidude]

Don't really care about the others (Glalie sucks) but
Honchkrow hits crazy hard, a lot harder than Talonflame, not to mention thanks to Superpower it can break through bulky Rock-type Pokemon such as Tyranitar and Heatran a hell of a lot better than Talonflame can, which is the main reason to use it over Talonflame. Staraptor has the issue of not having any priority (lol quick attack) to work with, not to mention that Honchkrow can go mixed with Heat Wave to hit Skarmory a lot better, which also deals with Ferrothorn so it doesn't have to take recoil damage. After a Moxie boost, literally nothing switches into Honchkrow. It can really easily steamroll though so many different teams and forces a ton of mind games with Sucker Punch. It's super hard to play around, especially with slower teams, and even with certain offensive teams, and it definitely warrants a D ranking.

e: whats spelling

Crow also has a pretty decent sub set :)

 

[SketchUp]

I think that mega abomasnow(Obama) is worthy of D rank....
It has a niche as a nice anti meta poke, murkrow jupiter made a great team with him and im proud to say that I helped him with it and he got to round 5 of a stour with that team.. Its a underrated mon that fits well on certain teams and actually has a great movepool with above average coverage and priorty (ice shard eq blizzard giga wood hammer sd) and since no teams prepare for it can cause havoc and play a variety of rolls on your team, wallbreaker,trick room sweeper etc

Also 132 attack and special attack combined with a very modest 90/105/105 bulk gives mega obama pretty decent stats

IMO

REPLAYS of murkrow
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-229175340
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-227811371
TBH i think its a c- to c mon but baby steps

Good you added replays because that really shows how a nominated pokemon works, but what do those replays even show for Abomasnow?
In the first replay it only weakens Jirachi a little bit but every pokemon could have done that and in the second replay it killed Zapdos, which every ice type in the metagame can without losing 95% of their health so both replays don't show the viability of Abomasnow at all. I'll post some stuff later today why I don't think it should be D rank

 

[Flygonial]

RIP ben gay rank

Anyway nominating Heliolisk for D rank

Heliolisk was used way back in early XY be a nice pivot switch off Aegislash (switch into Shadow Ball ---> Volt Switch). After PokeBank finally got setup however, Heliolisk was blacklisted from being talked about again because it didn't offer anything extraordinary over Thundurus-I.

Now that we have tutor moves have come out, I think its time to put Heliolisk back onto the viability ranking. Does it have a lot of competition for an offensive electric? Yes, but that is why it is in D rank lol. Heliolisk's niche is an offensive Electric on weather teams.

Heliolisk gets a lot of hate for being "slow" but it his base 109 speed. Its a shame that its slower than base 110, but it still outspeeds plenty. While Heliolisk's special attack stat isn't as good as most Electric-types, he makes up for it with better coverage and a usable secondary STAB. ORAS gave us a Hyper Voice tutor, which means Heliolisk now has another base 90 STAB move to use against most conventional Electric resists. In addition, he has Surf Take a look at some of these calcs:

heliolisk calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 192-227 (45.7 - 54%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 257-304 (61.1 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Surf vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 270-320 (70.6 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 195-230 (60.3 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 144-172 (40.1 - 47.9%) -- 50.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 177-211 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

but with some weather support...

Sun
252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss in Sun: 265-312 (61.3 - 72.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Mega Venusaur in Sun: 191-226 (52.6 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sand (cuts off synthesis recovery)
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur: 169-200 (47 - 55.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Amoonguss: 177-211 (40.9 - 48.8%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Black Sludge recovery

Rain (cuts off synthesis recovery)
252 SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Surf vs. 108 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X in Rain: 195-230 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now I know some of you might not found that stuff that impressive, particularly the 2HKO chance against the bulkier Grass-types. But consider that Heliolisk is going to have weather support, and each of the weather all do different things. When paired with Charizard Y Heliolisk can get a nice special attack boost. On Rain teams it has a free Life Orb / better longevity than most electrics and it can dissuade opponents from using your Rain against you like making a Choiced Keldeo's Hydro Pump risky to use (Heliolisk switchin with Dry Skin). In sandstorm, it can be annoying as hell with high base 109 speed + Sand Veil + Substitute. You could even drop Sub just to use an all-out-attacking set. Unlike every other Electric (besides Magnezone) it is immune to Sandstorm, so it lives longer than most Electrics in Sand. Really Heliolisk's extra Normal-STAB + Surf + shenanigans in weather make it deserving to at least ranked in D rank.

Finally if you want to be real:
252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hyper Beam vs. 248 HP / 148 SpD Mega Venusaur in Sun: 320-376 (88.1 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

I would just like to add that Heliolisk doesn't necessarily need weather, sure, it lets it shine fully, but it can already smash usual fast electric switch-ins with a Specs set. It's much harder to justify its use then but it can still fit on select non-weather teams IMO.

 

[Aquarium1]

Try it sometime if you want, it's better than most of the stuff in D. Shaymin plays more as an offensive grass type rather than a defensive one. It's more comparable to Serperior than to Celebi, Amoongus or Tangrowth. It has a better movepool than Serperior does: Psychic and Earth Power lets it plow through Venusaur/Amoonguss and Heatran respectively. It's bulkier than Serperior and can switch into EQ/Scald/Volt Switches better, plus it has semi-reliable recovery in Natural Cure + Rest. Seed Flare's SpDef drop chance makes it hard to handle for fat teams. On the downside it's slower and it can't sweep and wallbreak as effectively as Serperior can, but it's a perfectly legitimate choice for some teams. It's fine in D.

Yeah but Celebi can run an offensive set 2. The only real thing Shaymin has over celebi is seed flare but I think leaf storm better since you would miss on alot of KOs with seed flare.

Funnily enough the poster above just stated it for another poster; but if you want something nommed for D then you'd really need some good replays to back up your statements. Show why Mega Glalie works in practise and not just in theory; we all know it hits hard and such, but we need to see in realistic scenarios where that would come in useful especially considering Mega Glalie's massive opportunity cost.

Alright than I will. I'll probably revisit this topic after the suspect ladder down since I don't think replays from a suspect ladder would be good idea.

AraEdit: Don't double post

 

[Karxrida]

Seed Flare is WAY better than Leaf Storm because it doesn't drop your Special Attack on each use and is much more spammable because it can potentially let you muscle past your checks if you get the double Special Defense drop (the chance is 40% so it's very likely to happen). Another thing Shaymin has over Celebi is that it's not a Psychic-type, allowing it to stay in on ScarfTar and Bisharp and kill them. Keep it D-Rank.

 

[Aquarium1]

252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 194-230 (80.4 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

What a delicious revenge kill by the most powerful priority you could use against it. Also Ice Shard is a thing to prevent Thundurus from stopping your sweep, with the added bonus of preventing this revenge.

Klefki exist which completely shut it down. If rocks up than that becomes an OKHO than beloom can OKHO, Besides what does cloyster even get a free shell smash on in the tier?

 

[GuatemalaPartiratuculo]

Keldeo should stay in S rank, scald is scald and you all know how that 30% burn change can change games leaving this "counters" cripple like azumarill and latios for the rest of the match, even if keldeo has a small movepool he has what he needs between scald/secret sword u literally cover half of the meta, u choose ur counters depending on the last 2 slots u can choose classic calm mind/ substitute with leftovers who like clefable outlast his own counters (a reason why clefable is S rank), scarf for revenge killing and specs destroys this countera with icy wind/hidden power electric or flying, etc keldeo should stay in S rank.

Yeah but Celebi can run an offensive set 2. The only real thing Shaymin has over celebi is seed flare but I think leaf storm better since you would miss on alot of KOs with seed flare.

Seed flare its a reliable stab while celebi doesn't have a reliable stab (giga drain too pussy weak and leaf storm drops gives almost the entire tier free turns to set up on him), also he doesn't have that disgusting dark weakness (pursuit/sucker punch).

 

[Flygonial]

Keldeo should stay in S rank, scald is scald and you all know how that 30% burn change can change games leaving this "counters" cripple like azumarill and latios for the rest of the match, even if keldeo has a small movepool he has what he needs between scald/secret sword u literally cover half of the meta, u choose ur counters depending on the last 2 slots u can choose classic calm mind/ substitute with leftovers who like clefable outlast his own counters (a reason why clefable is S rank), scarf for revenge killing and specs destroys this countera with icy wind/hidden power electric or flying, etc keldeo should stay in S rank.



Seed flare its a reliable stab while celebi doesn't have a reliable stab (giga drain too pussy weak and leaf storm drops gives almost the entire tier free turns to set up on him), also he doesn't have that disgusting dark weakness (pursuit/sucker punch).

Scald isn't that much of a tool when you consider that basically every half decent water-type gets it and that Keldeo would probably use another move on a choice set if it got better coverage. There are two common Natural Cure users, and one before Mega Evolution. Also, despite all the jokes about the move, Scald isn't really that likely to burn, and it won't always be able to get a burn off against it's hard check in a single game against an offensive team, and fatter teams will often have a cleric and a hard check. On the other hand, one of the great things about Keldeo is how its such a good offensive check to numerous threatening pokemon that have probably all been mentioned in the past. I could bring up other points but I'm really rather neutral on Keldeo dropping or staying in S.