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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
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Weavile to A
Reposting this from the PotW thread:
There's a general under-preparedness for Weavile, seen from the teams with just a Keldeo/Azumarill/Clefable slapped on as an 'all-around Dark-type check', which fails quite horribly in practice. All these aforementioned checks hate taking Knock Off, especially Keldeo and Clefable, as the former loses longevity (SubCM), or power (Choice Specs), and the latter loses to ability to blanket check half the metagame, as without Leftovers recovery Clefable fails to avoid 2HKOes from the likes of Latios, Thundurus, Mega Lopunny, etc.. These mons are really pressured to check Weavile, but when you consider that Keldeo will be switching into attacks quite often, without a surefire way of recovering health (Leftovers gets Knocked Off), it gets worn down really quickly by Weavile. Clefable is too - it's really pressured already, as it needs to cover many threats such as Latios and Mega Lopunny, that it will not always be at full health, which means Weavile can break through Clefable. Not to mention Weavile's Swords Dance set, allowing it to break past Keldeo, Azumarill, and Clefable, and terrorize the likes of Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory without Low Kick, turning it into a fearsome late-game sweeper once the aforementioned Pokemon are weakened, which really isn't that hard.
Points can be summarized as this:
Reposting this from the PotW thread:
There's a general under-preparedness for Weavile, seen from the teams with just a Keldeo/Azumarill/Clefable slapped on as an 'all-around Dark-type check', which fails quite horribly in practice. All these aforementioned checks hate taking Knock Off, especially Keldeo and Clefable, as the former loses longevity (SubCM), or power (Choice Specs), and the latter loses to ability to blanket check half the metagame, as without Leftovers recovery Clefable fails to avoid 2HKOes from the likes of Latios, Thundurus, Mega Lopunny, etc.. These mons are really pressured to check Weavile, but when you consider that Keldeo will be switching into attacks quite often, without a surefire way of recovering health (Leftovers gets Knocked Off), it gets worn down really quickly by Weavile. Clefable is too - it's really pressured already, as it needs to cover many threats such as Latios and Mega Lopunny, that it will not always be at full health, which means Weavile can break through Clefable. Not to mention Weavile's Swords Dance set, allowing it to break past Keldeo, Azumarill, and Clefable, and terrorize the likes of Heatran, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory without Low Kick, turning it into a fearsome late-game sweeper once the aforementioned Pokemon are weakened, which really isn't that hard.
Points can be summarized as this:
- outspeeds common offensive 'mons such as tornadus-t, latios, starmie, etc.
- ability to whittle down checks such as azumarill and keldeo
- excellent offensive typing
- checks a myriad of top-tier pokemon such as mega metagross and landorus
- annhilates offense and balance when slightly weakened
- sd is an underrated set that blows back clefable, azumarill, keldeo, and improving its matchup against balanced/stall playstyles (and beats heatran and ferrothorn and skarmory easier without needing low kick)
- good utility (pursuit, also offers a good answer to a lot of pokemon)
Okay, I feel like making a post on one thing that's always annoyed me in this thread: Politoed.
I don't understand why this thing is in A- at all. It doesn't 'support significant portions of the meta', out of the entire S and A ranks it supports Torn-T, Manaphy and Keldeo. You could say Ferrothorn and Sciz if you're feeling nice. More importantly, every single swift swimmer is in B+ or below. I would argue that if we keep Politoed, a must on rain, A-, we should move up Kingdra, as I feel he is also a must on rain and provides decent utility, able to go mixed and having both a sweeper and wallbreaker set. However, A- is just not right for either of them. It's got 0 splashability, supports a rather small pool of mons, and while it holds an entire playstyle together, that playstyle is extremely niche. It should, IMO, always be in the same rank as the best swift swimmers, Kingdra and MPert.
So, Politoed to B+ because it's niche and supports very few mons, even though very well, I feel the list is too short to have it in A-.
Edit: Out of the proposed moves, I support Weavile to move up, it's fab V offense with no good switchins (Keld is your best and only switches in once IIRC), while I disagree with the others. Rotom-H is an odd mon that seems to have little niche over Rotom-W other tgan Overheat, which is a shitty move, Doublade still has a niche that's useful so should be D, and Thundy is really good and has no reason to drop. It's far from the worst A+, let alone drop worthy.
I don't understand why this thing is in A- at all. It doesn't 'support significant portions of the meta', out of the entire S and A ranks it supports Torn-T, Manaphy and Keldeo. You could say Ferrothorn and Sciz if you're feeling nice. More importantly, every single swift swimmer is in B+ or below. I would argue that if we keep Politoed, a must on rain, A-, we should move up Kingdra, as I feel he is also a must on rain and provides decent utility, able to go mixed and having both a sweeper and wallbreaker set. However, A- is just not right for either of them. It's got 0 splashability, supports a rather small pool of mons, and while it holds an entire playstyle together, that playstyle is extremely niche. It should, IMO, always be in the same rank as the best swift swimmers, Kingdra and MPert.
So, Politoed to B+ because it's niche and supports very few mons, even though very well, I feel the list is too short to have it in A-.
Edit: Out of the proposed moves, I support Weavile to move up, it's fab V offense with no good switchins (Keld is your best and only switches in once IIRC), while I disagree with the others. Rotom-H is an odd mon that seems to have little niche over Rotom-W other tgan Overheat, which is a shitty move, Doublade still has a niche that's useful so should be D, and Thundy is really good and has no reason to drop. It's far from the worst A+, let alone drop worthy.
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Is it a good time to make the Mega Lopunny -> S nom? It's just so freaking good at the moment. With PuP sets becoming more common and things like Encore and/or Sub sets being thrown around, it seems more worthy of S to me than Keldeo and Clefable. RockyChomp is a hindrance that can be played around - things like Lando and Keldeo really like and often rely on their Pursuit support, so I don't see why needing team support to deal with some (limited amount of) things is that big of a deal. Ice Punch also does a lot of damage so Chomp with ~40% of prior damage will always be KOed by it, even if it's a rare 252 HP/252 Def spread, so it's not like Lopunny can't work around this. It's able to outspeed the 'fast' things that are rising drastically in popularity like Torn-T and Weavile, and many of the scarfers around the place can't outpace Lop. Getting a free mega with Fake Out if you're running it is also a massive boost to it. Talonflame isn't in a whole lot of teams at the moment either, helping its viability even further.
While for some weird reason I despise Mega Lopunny to my core, I support Mega Lopunny to S. It essentially gets a free turn to Mega Evolve, and it's just so goshdarn fast. The only viable things that can outspeed and kill it are Mega Aero, Mega Sceptile, Mega Alakazam, and Mega Beedrill. (You need some prior damage if running Jolly on Mega Bee.) All Megas. You have to scarf some already fast stuff to have any hope of beating it. Once T-flame is gone, it cleans teams. Its coverage is unresisted, and it essentially has two free moveslots (after Return + HJK) to do whatever the heck it wants. Emergency cleric support? Healing Wish. Check. Momentum grabber? Baton Pass. Check. Want to become more bulky? Cosmic Power. Check. Mega Lopunny is definitely one of the defining forces in the metagame and deserves to go to S.
252+ Atk Choice Band Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 264-312 (97.4 - 115.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO START USING IT PEOPLE
I definitely support Mega Lopunny to S. It is so fast, so powerful, so easy to use. Return and HJK are both 100 BP+ moves that M-Lop has access to, and getting access to fake out for that free mega evolution and chip damage that determine some KOs is just so good. It also can run various moves for its last slot, which can be adjusted to the team's need.
Sure, some scarfers such as scarf Lando T (most lando T are bulky pivot anyways, right?) can come in and kill it, and some priority users can really hurt it, but that's what team mates are for.
Overall, based on her power, easy mega evolution, blistering speed tier and access to high powered moves, and the ability to turn some 2HKOs into OHKOs with fake out and providing support to the whole team all in one single mon, I support Mega Lopunny to S.
Sure, some scarfers such as scarf Lando T (most lando T are bulky pivot anyways, right?) can come in and kill it, and some priority users can really hurt it, but that's what team mates are for.
Overall, based on her power, easy mega evolution, blistering speed tier and access to high powered moves, and the ability to turn some 2HKOs into OHKOs with fake out and providing support to the whole team all in one single mon, I support Mega Lopunny to S.
Supporting Mega Lop to S. It has the speed to destroy a tonne of HO mons, losing only to Talon, faster megas such as Zam and some scarfes. It also has decent bulk and isn't worn down by rocks. The utility in it's last two moves (fake out, sub, PuP, ice punch, healing wish) give it some unpredictability, and the best pqrt is you don't need those moves to survive. It can also revenge +1 adamant Malt, who is a major threat right now. I think this thing is better than Clefable, who also resides in S.
I get the logic behing Lopunny moving to S since the metagame is sgetting a bit more offensive recently, what with the popularity of Manaphy and Landourus, and that's great news for Lopunny for obvious reasons, but it still has a few problems which kinda prevent it from going S. The most glaring one being the huge popularity of Tankchomp on offensive builds as this catch-all check to a bunch of things at once, one of those thing being Lopunny. And yeah it does get pressured and worn down and Lopunny can hit it with Ice Punch if it really wants to (though Ice Punch is kind of a weak option given that you have to sacrifice Fake Out or PuP both of which are amazing and really improve Lopunn's capabilities against offensive and defensive teams respectively), but unless you want to run Ice Beam, Lopunny is usually weakened to the range where priority takes it out by the time it beats it, so Chomp has pretty much done its job at that point. The fact of the matter is that offense don't really autolose to Lopunny since, much like modern stall isn't just 6 passive mons that just get blown away by any wallbreaker, modern HO isn't just one sashed SR and 5 offensive mons with no bulk whatsoever, it needs some kind of defensive backbone to fall back on otherwise you just lose to random things, and not just Lopunny but stuff like Altaria and Metagross and Sand Exca and whatever. So the kinds of teams that are hopeless against Lopunny end up not being too common since they lose to other stuff in the process (though Lopunny is defenitely the #1 threat to HO right now, not going to deny that)
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I'm going to compare it to Manaphy for a second, which probably sounds ridiculous, but they actually have quite a bit in common, both allegedly "beat" an extreme playstyle entirely minus one relatively common, out-of-place thing used to check it on that playstyle (Tankchomp for Lopunny on Offense, Gothitelle for Manaphy on Stall), both are pretty threatening to balanced teams, and both have been nominated to S rank on this basis. I think the biggest difference here is that, besides the obvious mega slot argument, Lopunny is easier for Balance to respond to. Sure, PuP screws over some of its defensive answers, and if any set is worty of S rank it's defenitely this one, but it doesn't stop most answers to it from beating it as long as it's healthy. The opposing player knows exactly what to do and what to keep healthy to beat Lopunny in most cases. But when faced with Manaphy, you don't know whether to send in Keldeo, Altaria, Unaware Clefable or what. And this creates a good situation for the Manaphy user since, not only does he barely need to predict in most cases when Tail Glow is such a rewarding move, but he can also gauge your respone to it and figure out what you're more willing to weaken or sack. I guess you can argue that Toxic Lopunny messes up some switchins but Lopunny really can't afford to throw Toxics around willy-nilly. Manaphy doesn't need to mess around since Tail Glow is usually the optimal play when given a free turn against balanced teams.
This all makes Manaphy more threatening to balanced teams than Lopunny overral, since it's less starightforward to deal with. Now, to be fair, Lopunny is far less of a momentum-killer (in fact it's pretty much the perfect momentum-generator) and has a much, much easier time fitting what it needs in its moveset, but if you add the opportunity cost to that, I'm not sure if Lopunny deserves to be a rank higher than Manaphy. Now personally I'm neutral on whether or not Manaphy should be S rank, the fact that it tends to fall flat on its face against certain teams is kinda offputting to me. But the same kinda applies to Lopunny. There are teams against which Lopunny just won't do much due to the presence of multiple solid switchins that can be kept heatly throughout the battle, and that's just not something I can say about any S rank right now, all of which are able to put in work in the majority of matchups.
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I'm going to compare it to Manaphy for a second, which probably sounds ridiculous, but they actually have quite a bit in common, both allegedly "beat" an extreme playstyle entirely minus one relatively common, out-of-place thing used to check it on that playstyle (Tankchomp for Lopunny on Offense, Gothitelle for Manaphy on Stall), both are pretty threatening to balanced teams, and both have been nominated to S rank on this basis. I think the biggest difference here is that, besides the obvious mega slot argument, Lopunny is easier for Balance to respond to. Sure, PuP screws over some of its defensive answers, and if any set is worty of S rank it's defenitely this one, but it doesn't stop most answers to it from beating it as long as it's healthy. The opposing player knows exactly what to do and what to keep healthy to beat Lopunny in most cases. But when faced with Manaphy, you don't know whether to send in Keldeo, Altaria, Unaware Clefable or what. And this creates a good situation for the Manaphy user since, not only does he barely need to predict in most cases when Tail Glow is such a rewarding move, but he can also gauge your respone to it and figure out what you're more willing to weaken or sack. I guess you can argue that Toxic Lopunny messes up some switchins but Lopunny really can't afford to throw Toxics around willy-nilly. Manaphy doesn't need to mess around since Tail Glow is usually the optimal play when given a free turn against balanced teams.
This all makes Manaphy more threatening to balanced teams than Lopunny overral, since it's less starightforward to deal with. Now, to be fair, Lopunny is far less of a momentum-killer (in fact it's pretty much the perfect momentum-generator) and has a much, much easier time fitting what it needs in its moveset, but if you add the opportunity cost to that, I'm not sure if Lopunny deserves to be a rank higher than Manaphy. Now personally I'm neutral on whether or not Manaphy should be S rank, the fact that it tends to fall flat on its face against certain teams is kinda offputting to me. But the same kinda applies to Lopunny. There are teams against which Lopunny just won't do much due to the presence of multiple solid switchins that can be kept heatly throughout the battle, and that's just not something I can say about any S rank right now, all of which are able to put in work in the majority of matchups.
TornadusT is S, really.
Keldeo isn't quite S right now.
Weavile is A+ easily.
Thundurus should be A.
Skarmory should be A. Spikes are huge, very huge, especially when it covers as many stuff as this Pokémon does. Not reason to be under Ferrothorn IMO.
Alakazam should be A and AlakazamM A- IMO.
PinsirM B.
MedichamM should be B+, it's really not supposed to be 2 ranks under, say, HeracrossM. MedichamM priorities should not be underestimated. B+ fits it well, something you don't see often, that you have to build around when making a team. Chances are, your opponent will not be ready (it's too harsh of a ranking, even for a Pokémon walled by SableyeM).
Tangrowth should go up, it's crazy good to be honest, and not that easy to switch into. B+ I'd say (plus, it's not niche at all, it's easy to put into a team).
These things are the main things I'd change. If you want me to detail the choices, ask and I will. It would have been too much to write it all right now for me.
Keldeo isn't quite S right now.
Weavile is A+ easily.
Thundurus should be A.
Skarmory should be A. Spikes are huge, very huge, especially when it covers as many stuff as this Pokémon does. Not reason to be under Ferrothorn IMO.
Alakazam should be A and AlakazamM A- IMO.
PinsirM B.
MedichamM should be B+, it's really not supposed to be 2 ranks under, say, HeracrossM. MedichamM priorities should not be underestimated. B+ fits it well, something you don't see often, that you have to build around when making a team. Chances are, your opponent will not be ready (it's too harsh of a ranking, even for a Pokémon walled by SableyeM).
Tangrowth should go up, it's crazy good to be honest, and not that easy to switch into. B+ I'd say (plus, it's not niche at all, it's easy to put into a team).
These things are the main things I'd change. If you want me to detail the choices, ask and I will. It would have been too much to write it all right now for me.
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Im just gonna assume context clues for everything else except for thundurus. Care to elaborate on that? I know what it does but I want to see the logic as to what it doesnt do cause thats apparently where a lot of the support of dropping it is coming from.
Also I dont support mega lopunny for S, addressed to people bringing it up. Thats a huge exaggeration.
It's always hard to list arguments like "Thundurus doesnt hit so hard, the SR weakness blablabla" so instead I'm gonna compare the Thundurus of right now to the Thundurus of Early/Mid XY with a couple of facts
- Hippowdon rose from UU to OU. This fat ground is really hard to beat for Thundurus, as you need to NP on the switch, and hit it as hard as you can hoping it can't hit you and has to Whirlwind. It's a pretty damn good counter, and it became very common (a bit less right now, but still, a pretty classic Ground to use in balanced teams).
- Less bird spam. You don't feel the need to run a Thundurus in your HO. Really, you don't, and that's probably the most important fact. With SR + pressure thanks to stuff like Weavile and Fake Out Lopunny, you can smoothly play around a Talonflame/Defog combo (when it was literally a nightmare back in XY for HO, almost an instant loss if you were not VERY ready). Worst case scenario, you send your Rocky Chomp in, and it's gonna deal with the Bird Spam (and with Lopunny, MetagrossM etc) just fine for your HO to keep on going.
- Big Dragon Dancers that thrilled everybody back in XY are now lurking in the shadows instead. CharizardX isn't really the "biggest threat on paper" just like it was in XY. People are more careless right now, as most of us don't bother trying to revive the blue Dragon. It became rare, and Thundurus priority Twave became less appealing. It was also a nice panic button back then, right now we got a lot more things figured out, we don't need to rely on this tool that much anymore.
- Big competition from the two other genies. Flying types are good, but you usually run one. Well, maybe two. No more. It's pretty clear that stuff like Landorus and TornadusT are more "viable" right now in OU, and as a result, Thundurus' usage decreased. You see more TornadusT LO right now in offensive teams, than you see Thundurus.
Thundurus is still pretty good, mixed options and a wide spectrum of coverage moves to go along with excellent abilities such as Prankster and Defiant. The speed is as good as ever too.
However, I really feel like the list must show the current trends that I described.
tl;dr : Thundurus has all the tools to be a rank [A-...A+] Pokémon, but right now the metagame does not favor it as much as it once did.
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I have to agree that mega lopunny is not quite S rank material. We all know how amazing it is, sitting in an excellent speed tier, being versatile enough to the point where some sets like Pup or encore can mess with defensive answers, or use baton pass + sub to pass boosts to wallbreakers, or even use heal bell not only to support its teammates but set up on status users that love to mess with it and as noted before heavily shits on HO. However, I find mega lop's lack of defensive backbone and it being very prone to taking residual damage from entry hazards, status, high jump kick recoil (always sucks if it happens), etc. to be an issue especially with how some teams have multiple answers to it (it lacks the raw power to break through some physically defensive mons, though Pup can make up for this only to an extent), and its frailty and consequently susceptibility to priority over the course of the game is always an issue. I agree that compared to some of the S ranks mons it doesn't have quite as much better match ups against nearly all archetypes, and its move pool only ameliorates this to an extent. I'm not entirely opposed to seeing it in S, I'm just not very convinced about what changed to warrant it a rise is all.
To add on to this the prevalence of raikou in the metagame also doesn't help thundurus as raikou is a check to any special attacking variant. The metagame has also sped up quite a bit from X & Y so its speed, while great, isn't as spectacular as it once was. Threats like lopunny, raikou, starmie, +1 ,Malt, Tornadus-T, Mega Zam, etc all out speed it. Bird spam isn't an easy check for Thundurus as it once was as Talon never runs CB anymore; you switch in, you take a BraveBird + FlareBlitz. Still a solid pokemon today with NP and AoA variants. It just doesn't have the same utility is once had along with the rise of many pokemon from UU doesn't help it combined with the Metagame becoming faster and the increased amount of set-up sweepers. It does have a very customizable moveset but regardless I do believe that it is time for Thundy to move to A.
I have to disagree with your evaluation of Thundurus's transition from XY to ORAS. Like the other two genies, Thundurus has managed to adapt to the metagame and is still a threatening force. I think you're only focusing on negative aspects of the transitions, so I'm going to try to go through your points.
-Hippowdon is everywhere, yes, but it is a pretty shaky counter considering some Thundys have started running Grass Knot specifically for Hippo. Sure, you lose some coverage, but who needs Focus Blast when Ferro/Tran are fairly easy to check?
-I'll give you that Thundy isn't necessarily needed anymore as a bird check, but its speed tier only became better in ORAS, as it edges out that all important base 110 mark. It still has plenty of other uses for offensive teams.
-There are still plenty of threatening Dragon Dancers in the tier. CharX, Mega-Alt, and both Gyaras are all pretty terrifying for offensive teams to face, and Thundy is still a decent emergency button against these sweepers. Plus, it actually has some decent offensive presence unlike other prankster T-wave users. If anything, I would actually say ORAS brought more targets for Prankster Twave (stuff like Serperior and RP M-Meta and the Zam's rise to fame).
-All three genies do different things, so I don't really see the competition part, and double genie cores are everywhere on offensive teams.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 377-445 (89.7 - 105.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 294-346 (70 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Some points of my own:
-Thundy has great mixed offensive stats and movepool, allowing it to choose its checks/counters fairly easily.
-Electric is a good offensive typing with current metagame trends (Torn-T, Mana, Keld). Thundy's coverage options are pretty expansive too.
-Resistance to most prio moves bar Aqua Jet and Ice Shard is a godsend.
-Prankster and Defiant are both incredibly useful/usable abilities in ORAS. I don't really think I need to explain why.
-It can run a multitude of sets from Nasty Plot to AoA to Utility to even a Bulk Up set. No other mon brings what Thundy does to the table.
So, yeah, I'd say the metagame has changed a lot as ORAS has progressed, but Thundy has managed to adapt accordingly and still be incredibly useful. Keep it in A+ imo.
Link me a tournament replay where you see GK Thundurus.
Check the usage% of this move on the ladder on Thundurus.
Now accept my point :D
On a more serious note, Altaria runs Refresh/HealBell often, plus even if you Para it, the typing is still very solid defensively (unlike CharX) so you're probably gonna lose something else if your answer is only about Twaving it. Most Gyarados run Substitute, a lot of GyaradosM run it too.
And yea, your points are things that everybody already know I guess. I won't discuss about it.
I'm puzzled as I dont see why you'd be so adamant on keeping the A+ when it's obvious that the usage drop'd like crazy across the generation. I guess you decided to argue for the sake of it, and that's cool, really, but I'll pass my turn.
It's been a long time since I last contributed to that, and I dont feel like starting a big war about something trivial. I shared what I had to share, that's all for me !
edit : idgi why you guys try so hard to argue with me with these walls of text
i dont think anybody here is foolish enough to believe that these rankings should not show how much thundurus lost usage (because it did, and you know it)
now write all you want, wont change that fact
Check the usage% of this move on the ladder on Thundurus.
Now accept my point :D
On a more serious note, Altaria runs Refresh/HealBell often, plus even if you Para it, the typing is still very solid defensively (unlike CharX) so you're probably gonna lose something else if your answer is only about Twaving it. Most Gyarados run Substitute, a lot of GyaradosM run it too.
And yea, your points are things that everybody already know I guess. I won't discuss about it.
I'm puzzled as I dont see why you'd be so adamant on keeping the A+ when it's obvious that the usage drop'd like crazy across the generation. I guess you decided to argue for the sake of it, and that's cool, really, but I'll pass my turn.
It's been a long time since I last contributed to that, and I dont feel like starting a big war about something trivial. I shared what I had to share, that's all for me !
edit : idgi why you guys try so hard to argue with me with these walls of text
i dont think anybody here is foolish enough to believe that these rankings should not show how much thundurus lost usage (because it did, and you know it)
now write all you want, wont change that fact
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Yeah, Thundurus to A is just ridiculous. It's been shot down a few times already and I don't think I need to go into too much detail on why it should stay in A+. All of the things mentioned as negatives for Thundurus just aren't enough for it to move down to A (especially the "decline" in dragon dancers... which I haven't seen at all). Yeah, it's not as good as it once was but that's why it's no longer S rank and it is in A+. If you look at A rank Thundurus is absolutely a bigger threat than anything there especially considering it has three fantastic sets with options within each whereas most of A is there based on one or maybe two sets.
As for Mega Lopunny to S I'm not necessarily against it but I'm not seeing any good arguments for it to rise. Okay it's really fast and it terrorizes offense but balance practically doesn't care about it with Hippowdon, Slowbro, Chesnaught, Clefable and quite a few other pokemon that straight up wall it. While it can run sets like Encore + PuP to have a better matchup against bulkier teams it's still having problems with some of the things that wall it, and it loses a very powerful tool against offense in Fake Out.
No doubt it's amazing against offense. However it's more that it has very few switch-ins: offense carries plenty of ways to revenge kill it with things like priority and scarfers, plus other fast Mega Evolutions. There is no doubt Mega Lopunny is a big threat but it's a bit more matchup dependent than the rest of S rank IMO.
As for Mega Lopunny to S I'm not necessarily against it but I'm not seeing any good arguments for it to rise. Okay it's really fast and it terrorizes offense but balance practically doesn't care about it with Hippowdon, Slowbro, Chesnaught, Clefable and quite a few other pokemon that straight up wall it. While it can run sets like Encore + PuP to have a better matchup against bulkier teams it's still having problems with some of the things that wall it, and it loses a very powerful tool against offense in Fake Out.
No doubt it's amazing against offense. However it's more that it has very few switch-ins: offense carries plenty of ways to revenge kill it with things like priority and scarfers, plus other fast Mega Evolutions. There is no doubt Mega Lopunny is a big threat but it's a bit more matchup dependent than the rest of S rank IMO.
Reymedy cuz quoting isn't working :[
Just another thing to consider is that Thundurus has a Nasty Plot+3 attacks set that has been criminally underused, but is pretty good in this metagame. A lot of balanced and offensive teams have been relying upon AV Tornadus-T to patch up any weaknesses to special attackers. NP Thundurus easily takes advantage of these teams because after a Nasty Plot it straight up OHKO's Tornadus-T and Torn-T can only do ~30% in return with Hurricane. Its a great sweeper because it has enough power and coverage to be a real threat to defensive teams (56% chance to 2HKO Chansey with Fblast after NP+SR) while having enough speed to OHKO offensive threats before they KO it (especially base 110's and Talonflame). Really Thundurus' wallbreaking power+greater than base 110 speed tier combination is still awesome in the metagame and deservedly A+ worthy.
I second the Skarmory move to A (good Fairy check + Spikes are real good), the really should happen Mega-Pinsir move to B+ / B (Mega-Meta+Diance+other Electrics+bulkier Torn-T are stuff that checks it really well that wasn't around in XY), and the Mega-Medicham move to B.
I agree that Thundurus-I has a tough time with Hippowdon, but certain Thundurus-I builds can comfortably play around Hippowdon or have teammates that help weaken it. Nasty Plot + Hidden Power Flying / Ice isn't the only way you can hope to beat it. Grass Knot if a perfectly viable option on All-out-Attacking sets because it can also target Quagsire which tries to handle Defiant boosts. Taunt is another cool option to potentially shut Hippowdon down if chooses to run Whirlwind / Toxic instead of a second attacking move. Then you can slowly wittle away with HP Ice or use it as setup bait when paired with Nasty Plot. Standard Hippowdon only narrowly misses the 2HKO from Hidden Power Ice. Throw in a burn or Toxic from an accompanying teammate that normally lures in Hippowdon (ex. Wisp Talonflame) and Hippowdon faces the possibility of being 2HKO'ed on the switch. You could also use Spikes, which paired really well with Thundurus because he hits and outspeeds most Spinners / Defoggers hard and can also take advantage with Defiant. Neither of these options are really bending over backwards to support Thundurus, and if played well with this kind of support Hippowdon is much less of an issue. Not to mention Hippo is really easy to take advantage of because its forced to recover to avoid the HP Ice 2HKO and you can switch out to another poke immune to Earthquake to get some momentum back (ex. Skarmory setting up Spikes).
Thundurus was always a really shitty bird check. Between Banded Talonflame 2HKO'ing it, SD Talonflame straight outspeeding to OHKO with +2 Flare Blitz, and an SR weakness to that hinders its job when pressured it could never check BirdSpam very consistently. This why you saw the rise of Raikou and Mega-Manetric, because Thundurus wasn't very effective at doing its job. It shouldn't be moved down for a niche it didn't really hold that well in the first place.
Yeah Mega-Charizard X is less used nowadays, but that is because DD Mega-Altaria and Crunch Gyarados were introduced in ORAS and give it stiff competition. Both DD Mega-Altaria and DD Mega-Gyarados are phenomenal Pokemon right now capable of breaking apart most balanced teams. Thundurus-I's Prankster Thunder Wave is still a great tool to have for balance teams for checking those two DD'ers without sacrificing any sort of offensive presence or relying upon on Choice Scarfer. Of course Zard X is still around in some force too (people refused to take it off from A+) so it has that added bonus. Prankster Twave isn't really just used for DD'ers too. It can be a really useful tool to stop stuff like Mega-Zam from wrecking your balance team.
EErrr Thundurus-I a lot of the time is paired with the other two Kami's, not directly competing with them. Thundurus + Landorus is one the formidable and common offensive pairs in the tier. In addition to that, Thundurus can actually check the two opposing genies that have become more popular. It resists Tornadus-T's Hurricane and can either bop it with Tbolt if it chooses to stay or threaten Prankster Thunder Wave if it decides to U-turn. Thundy can outspeed Lando-I and smack it with HP Ice and if a player is ballsy switch Thundy on a predicted Earth Power in order to force Lando-I out.
Just another thing to consider is that Thundurus has a Nasty Plot+3 attacks set that has been criminally underused, but is pretty good in this metagame. A lot of balanced and offensive teams have been relying upon AV Tornadus-T to patch up any weaknesses to special attackers. NP Thundurus easily takes advantage of these teams because after a Nasty Plot it straight up OHKO's Tornadus-T and Torn-T can only do ~30% in return with Hurricane. Its a great sweeper because it has enough power and coverage to be a real threat to defensive teams (56% chance to 2HKO Chansey with Fblast after NP+SR) while having enough speed to OHKO offensive threats before they KO it (especially base 110's and Talonflame). Really Thundurus' wallbreaking power+greater than base 110 speed tier combination is still awesome in the metagame and deservedly A+ worthy.
I second the Skarmory move to A (good Fairy check + Spikes are real good), the really should happen Mega-Pinsir move to B+ / B (Mega-Meta+Diance+other Electrics+bulkier Torn-T are stuff that checks it really well that wasn't around in XY), and the Mega-Medicham move to B.
Just because a move isn't run often doesn't mean Hippo is magically a counter. Grass Knot had 6.276% for OU 1695 last time, and its not like GK is useless otherwise on Thundy. It hits all the Water/Ground that otherwise hard wall Thundurus. But by all means, enjoy the surprise when a GK takes out your Hippo.
Yeah, Alt runs Heal Bell, but it need to take a turn to use that move, so something like CB Scizor could come in and threaten it out/kill it. And so what if gyara runs sub? Thundy outspeeds before a DD, so gyara isn't keeping its substitute. Then its forced to decide to go for the DD or the KO. Not really an ideal situation, especially with its mediocre initial speed.
Thundy sits at number 20 in usage, one below lando-i and above torn-t, but that doesn't even matter. Usage =/= viability as we've all heard dozens of times before, so that point seems kinda moot.
Seriously, though, thanks for belittling me! I'm definitely just here to argue and not to voice my personal, valid opinion.
But yeah, this will be it for me too.
Arcanine - Unranked --> D
you know, its very common to someone to say that arcanine is a counter to some top threat but he is only good in UU, but.... this thing can be a very effective in OU and itis a very good counter to mega metagross, weavile, talonflame, many fairies, many physical attackers thanks to intimidate + will o wisp and can run HO with a very good Extreme speed in its movepool, Mixed or Defensive role.
Main sets:
Ofensive
Hot Dog (Arcanine) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge / Crunch / Iron head
my favorite (double status arcanine)
Hot Dog (Arcanine) @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD (Careful) 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD (Impish)
Careful / Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Toxic
if you care so much about weather war against politoed or hippo, you can run
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Sunny day
against politoed, arcanine is faster, he can setup sunny day, easily tank the scald / hydro pump and heal 75% with morning sun, againt hippo, he can use WoW, next turn use sunny day and recover with morning sun.
Later i will edit this post with some replays, but for now, this is my support for arcanine to be at least ranked D
you know, its very common to someone to say that arcanine is a counter to some top threat but he is only good in UU, but.... this thing can be a very effective in OU and itis a very good counter to mega metagross, weavile, talonflame, many fairies, many physical attackers thanks to intimidate + will o wisp and can run HO with a very good Extreme speed in its movepool, Mixed or Defensive role.
Main sets:
Ofensive
Hot Dog (Arcanine) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge / Crunch / Iron head
my favorite (double status arcanine)
Hot Dog (Arcanine) @ Rocky Helmet / Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD (Careful) 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD (Impish)
Careful / Impish Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Toxic
if you care so much about weather war against politoed or hippo, you can run
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- Morning Sun
- Sunny day
against politoed, arcanine is faster, he can setup sunny day, easily tank the scald / hydro pump and heal 75% with morning sun, againt hippo, he can use WoW, next turn use sunny day and recover with morning sun.
Later i will edit this post with some replays, but for now, this is my support for arcanine to be at least ranked D
Gallade (Mega) B+ --> B
Medicham (Mega) B- -->B
Is it just me or has M-Gallade been MIA in forever? Its typing doesn't really make use of the 110 speed that supposedly put it ahead of M-Medicham. It's forced to run Shadow Sneak for Gengar but it still doesn't OHKO after rocks. Defensive Magic Guard and Unaware Mixed Clefable both wall it (whereas M-Medicham breaks it). Granted, bulky chomp made M-Medicham's fake out spam easier to punish but I don't see why having access to a reliable fighting move should be enough of a reason for M-Gallade to be above M-Medicham.
Medicham (Mega) B- -->B
Is it just me or has M-Gallade been MIA in forever? Its typing doesn't really make use of the 110 speed that supposedly put it ahead of M-Medicham. It's forced to run Shadow Sneak for Gengar but it still doesn't OHKO after rocks. Defensive Magic Guard and Unaware Mixed Clefable both wall it (whereas M-Medicham breaks it). Granted, bulky chomp made M-Medicham's fake out spam easier to punish but I don't see why having access to a reliable fighting move should be enough of a reason for M-Gallade to be above M-Medicham.
I was actually about to make the same nomination as the above - ultimate ninja - but for different reasons and I'd really disagree with the Shadow Sneak bit.
What I want to nominate, or at least generate discussion on, is Medicham and Gallade going to the same rank. To me, personally, it should be either B or B+ but I'm not entirely sure myself. The basic premise behind this is that the former was incredibly underrated at the start of ORAS and the latter was severely overrated, but now we've been able to step back we can see that they fulfill very different roles on a team but have the same kind of tools - Mega Gallade is a good late-game cleaner, Mega Medicham is a good wallbreaker. They both have the same STAB, both have speed and bulk issues, I feel they're generally on the same level. I think the only real thing that could put Gallade over Medicham is that it has Knock Off - which is very significant coverage. I think at the very least they should only have one rank between them.
What I want to nominate, or at least generate discussion on, is Medicham and Gallade going to the same rank. To me, personally, it should be either B or B+ but I'm not entirely sure myself. The basic premise behind this is that the former was incredibly underrated at the start of ORAS and the latter was severely overrated, but now we've been able to step back we can see that they fulfill very different roles on a team but have the same kind of tools - Mega Gallade is a good late-game cleaner, Mega Medicham is a good wallbreaker. They both have the same STAB, both have speed and bulk issues, I feel they're generally on the same level. I think the only real thing that could put Gallade over Medicham is that it has Knock Off - which is very significant coverage. I think at the very least they should only have one rank between them.
I simply don't agree with mega pinsir leaving A ranks even more now that the metagame is not prepared for him, first raikou is a soft check cause it can't tank 2 returns or one earthquake and combine that with hazards and pinsir is still sweeping u because in late game a boosted quick attack + 2 kills after prior damage, tornadus T lol he cant tank one return and mega pinsir quick attack at +2 kills u after rocks, mega metagross its a hard check because its fucking hard to wear down but if metagross hasn't evolve yet a boosted close combat does a shit load then quick attack finishes him, talonflame is a shacky check because its weak to SR and bulky chomp takes care of him, specially defensive talonflame is slower than mega pinsir and u kill him with boosted quick attack, diancie cant switch and rock polish variants just die to boosted returns or boosted
Close combat, also this checks arent as common as u are talking and normally the most common switch to mega pinsir is bulky chomp who just dies to boosted return at +2 after rocks.
Also as a wall breaker he is simply better than all his fellas that reside in b ranks like gallade or crawdaunt who even after a boost they still are not pinsir (i talk about counters because mega pinsir counters only zapdos and skarmory while sableye, fairys in general, etc give this wall breakers more problemas than mega pinsir has with passive shit like skarm).
Also plz people stop lying that gallade is on pair with medichamp, gallade is not only a wall breaker (a AoA set of close combat, poison jab, ice punch and knock off just destroys so much of the shit that wants to check u in ur balance squads like mega altaria, azu, clefable, bulkchomp, landorus T, etc ) he also cleans with his 110 speed benmark (tying and outspeeding Lando I, keldeo, terrakion, latios, diancie, gengar and killing them its a dream that medichamp will always wet about) and he doesn't need to get rek it in one hit by passive crap like clefables moonblast or gliscors earthquake, of the wall breakera gallade its just better than medichamp and the inmediate power of medichamp is not enough to compare him to gallade who is faster, bulkyer and unpredictable than medichamp.
I just say keep the 2 of them where they need be (gallade in b+ or b and medichamp in b-).
AraEdit: Please don't double post
Close combat, also this checks arent as common as u are talking and normally the most common switch to mega pinsir is bulky chomp who just dies to boosted return at +2 after rocks.
Also as a wall breaker he is simply better than all his fellas that reside in b ranks like gallade or crawdaunt who even after a boost they still are not pinsir (i talk about counters because mega pinsir counters only zapdos and skarmory while sableye, fairys in general, etc give this wall breakers more problemas than mega pinsir has with passive shit like skarm).
Also plz people stop lying that gallade is on pair with medichamp, gallade is not only a wall breaker (a AoA set of close combat, poison jab, ice punch and knock off just destroys so much of the shit that wants to check u in ur balance squads like mega altaria, azu, clefable, bulkchomp, landorus T, etc ) he also cleans with his 110 speed benmark (tying and outspeeding Lando I, keldeo, terrakion, latios, diancie, gengar and killing them its a dream that medichamp will always wet about) and he doesn't need to get rek it in one hit by passive crap like clefables moonblast or gliscors earthquake, of the wall breakera gallade its just better than medichamp and the inmediate power of medichamp is not enough to compare him to gallade who is faster, bulkyer and unpredictable than medichamp.
I just say keep the 2 of them where they need be (gallade in b+ or b and medichamp in b-).
AraEdit: Please don't double post
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