Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[squirtletheturtle]

Like I said, those are the exact reasons why it is A+ as opposed to S rn, and there is no way it is not in the top 2/3 Pokemon in A+ atm lol. Opportunity cost is the wrong term for megas, as with all megas the opportunity cost is identical and its the initiative to use it that changes, and Zard X has one of the highest usage initiatives of the megas die to it being splashable onto all playstyles. SD is trash anyway 'cause the meta ain't stally enough for it to be worth using, with the reasons to use it basically being DD and bulky Wisp. The required team support is basically hazard clearance and beyond that its basically identical to what any other Pokemon would need, so I don't see how it is at all "heavily reliant on team support" considering that its pretty conservative with what it needs pairing with, and the restriction of when it can do its job is identical to that of any other sweeper, so idk what you are trying to say here considering that it has argubly more of these than other setup sweepers due to Tough Claws being seriously f*cking insane on it. You play according to set regardless of what you're facing, so the point you made about its wisp set is arbitrary.

the wisp statement i made was out of line. sorry, i was exhausted from working out at the gym so i said a few stupid things in my last post.

the points im getting across is that Charizard X is a mega evolution, meaning that the opportunity cost is huge especially in oras ou where the mega slot is heavily coveted. compared to the other megas in A+, Mega Charizard X is noticeably much harder to fit into a team because of the amount of support it needs.
Now, you could argue a mon like talonflame suffers from the same problems. Difference is, Talonflame isn't a mega. this alone means that it doesn't have as big an opportunity cost (the mega slot). couple that with the fact that using zard x requires heavy support. it's a sweeper that takes up your mega slot and forces your team to be built to support it.

Now obviously every sweeper has its fair share of checks and counters which need to be eliminated. the point im making about charizard is how its checks are rising in usage. Sand, Landorus-T, and Heatran are all very common and many times hinders its ability to do its job.

Unfavorable meta trends + Mega Slot + Not too splashable + A sweeper taking up your mega slot requiring significantly more support than mons in A+ or S. All of these factors combined seriously hurt Charizard. Yes, it can rip through teams. Yes, its dangerous foe. But at the moment, it is most certainly not the top mon in A+. compared to the other mons in A+, it isn't as self-reliant and this issue that "all sweepers have" is further worsened by the fact that it takes up a mega slot and is heavily pressured by a very unfavorable metagame that limit its sweeping potential. to add more insult to injury starting out as regular charizard really blows.

gotta relax my sore muscles. as i said, perhaps i was too hasty since it did just move down. but the flaws in zard x are noticeable and i only wanted to touch upon it due to the current metagame.

 

[pika pal]

the wisp statement i made was out of line. sorry, i was exhausted from working out at the gym so i said a few stupid things in my last post.

the points im getting across is that Charizard X is a mega evolution, meaning that the opportunity cost is huge especially in oras ou where the mega slot is heavily coveted. compared to the other megas in A+, Mega Charizard X is noticeably much harder to fit into a team because of the amount of support it needs.
Now, you could argue a mon like talonflame suffers from the same problems. Difference is, Talonflame isn't a mega. this alone means that it doesn't have as big an opportunity cost (the mega slot). couple that with the fact that using zard x requires heavy support. it's a sweeper that takes up your mega slot and forces your team to be built to support it.

Now obviously every sweeper has its fair share of checks and counters which need to be eliminated. the point im making about charizard is how its checks are rising in usage. Sand, Landorus-T, and Heatran are all very common and many times hinders its ability to do its job.

Unfavorable meta trends + Mega Slot + Not too splashable + A sweeper taking up your mega slot requiring significantly more support than mons in A+ or S. All of these factors combined seriously hurt Charizard. Yes, it can rip through teams. Yes, its dangerous foe. But at the moment, it is most certainly not the top mon in A+. compared to the other mons in A+, it isn't as self-reliant and this issue that "all sweepers have" is further worsened by the fact that it takes up a mega slot and is heavily pressured by a very unfavorable metagame that limit its sweeping potential. to add more insult to injury starting out as regular charizard really blows.

gotta relax my sore muscles. as i said, perhaps i was too hasty since it did just move down. but the flaws in zard x are noticeable and i only wanted to touch upon it due to the current metagame.

I want to address your various points regarding Zard-X's flaws in your final paragraph.

Unfavorable Meta Trends: Fair enough, this is what led Zard to drop from S-rank in the first place. That said, I don't think it's gotten so severe as to contribute to an A drop. One thing Zard-X has going for it is that compared to most set-up sweepers, he has a much easier time creating set up chances because of the absurd power behind Tough Claws and his high BP STABs, not to mention basically auto-beating most Electric, Grass, and non-Drill Steel types. A lot of mons that rise because of the Sand trend also are lured by Zard's Bulky Wisp set, which was always a good set, just not his preferred one in the recent meta and thus not discussed heavily in ranking him.

Mega Slot: This is just a moot point/misconception that others have touched on in their own responses. Essentially, every Mega has the exact same opportunity cost in the form of the Mega Slot, so what you should compare them against is the incentive to use it, or the returns they bring in that team slot. Mega Latios technically has the exact same cost as Mega Zard or Mega Zam, but he doesn't give enough back to justify the cost. Zard-X is extremely versatile, strong even without investment, and pretty bulky in tandem with his very useful Offensive and Defensive typing.

Not too Splashable: This I disagree with more than a bit. Zard-X is a very splashable mon because he synergizes so well with so many different Pokemon. Keldeo needs Grass and Electric types dealt with? Zard-X eats them in exchange for assistance against Rocks and Bulky Grounds. Need to deal with bulky Steels and Special Tanks for Serperior? Zard's got ya covered for dealing with Grounds and Waters. Zard-X has a unique array of merits offensively and defensively, and while he's not quite strong enough to handle them all without overloading, he can handle a decent number of them as his teammates need, making him very flexible to tailor towards what a core needs without being overly specific.

Sweeper needing more Support: Every sweeper is obviously going to need a decent amount of support to deal with its checks, and Zard is no exception. However, Zard's checks tend to share traits that give many of them an achilles' heel that only takes 1-2 partners to exploit: Hippowdon, Lando-T, Mega Diancie, Tyranitar, and Azumarill can all be handled by Serperior, for example. You also compare his self-sufficiency to Zam, Lopunny, Gross, and a few other Megas in A+, but Zard-X's role as a sweeper is not one that needs to be self-sufficient to be viable. Zard-X is a mon that needs a bit of Support and then can eat a team by himself; the other mons usually have roles of wearing things down or cleaning, but need support in their own right to weaken everything or kill the things they can't wallbreak in Gross's case. They don't play similarly enough due to a fundamental difference in their roles to be compared in that particular manner for a drop.

The above is also assuming Zard can only be a sweeper. The Bulky Wisp set can lure and cripple almost every check you mentioned (Heatran depends on EQ or not), and as noted also does well against things that shot up in usage because of Sand.

 

[Alfalfa]

I'm going to have to say its not the best in A+ at the moment and arguably worse than a lot of A+ for the reasons I stated.

• Opportunity cost
• Sand, Heatran, and Lando-T (btw Support Ttar and Slowbro can live a +2 Adamant Dragon Claw)
• Heavy restrictions on when it can do its job
• Heavy reliance on team support compared to rest of A+ (it can't actually "muscle" past its checks in practice unless they are weakened by a sufficient amount.)
• Despite the Wisp set faring decently against DD switchins, it has its own fair share of checks and counters once you figure out what set Zard is running

Usually, the opponent will switch into something as you set up Swords Dance (probably something faster that can KO) So it won't be "things are guaranteed to die"

Personally, I just find it has a harder time doing its job than the rest of A+. Additionally, almost every mon in A+ is more self-reliant at doing its job (exception of probably talonflame). I get that it can tear teams apart, but honestly the meta is really against it right now to the point where it's fallen very far.

But perhaps I was being to hasty since it did just drop from S. Apologies.

Opportunity cost is always a price for using a mega forme. However, most of the higher-ranked Megas possess traits that outweigh such opportunity cost substantially. Opportunity cost is mostly problematic for Megas that are often not as dominant as other Megas, such as Mega Absol and Mega Blastoise.

Also, Swords Dance Zard X sets run Outrage and not Dragon Claw for the sake of making those OHKOs, but Swords Dance Zard X isn't its best set to begin with.

You can cite Heatran and Landorus-T, but Zard X has been in S Rank before with both of those Pokemon being quite common. It is not relatively difficult to find mons that can pressure on them or lure and weaken them, especially since sets like offensive Earth Plate and Double Dance Landorus-T are a lot more common than when defensive and Choice Scarf sets were the only sets players were willing to use.

I understand sand being an impediment for Zard X, but keep in mind that while Zard X dislikes facing sand, it is also a mon that likes being used on sand teams due to Zard X and Excadrill possessing decent offensive synergy and being capable of pressuring each other's checks.

 

[TPP]

Haven't posted on here in awhile, so here we go:

Mega Manectric is great against offensive teams due to it's speed tier and fairly decent coverage. Offense is starting to dominate again, and besides sand, Mega Manectric can still perform really well against most offensive builds, as there aren't many electric checks that fit on offense. It's able to outspeed everything barring Mega Alakazam, Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Lopunny (speed tie), and various scarf users, and being able to apply a ton of pressure to offensive builds, while volt switching out of the few checks the opponent may have is no small feat. Being able to take care of Keldeo, Torn-T, Weavile and create momentum is something Raikou can't do as well, especially when you consider the significant difference in speed, as Raikou can't outspeed Weavile and Torn-T. Also, when you consider the mons that are gonna be used to help deal with sand, you got mons like Lando-T, Rotom-Wash, Chesnaught and bulky waters. Mega Manectric can deal with those fairly well, being able to take out a large chunk for each of those if not killing them. Keep in A

Kyube is really fun to use, and really annoying to face because of the raw power and lack of switch ins it has. Unless you have Clefable, Mega Scizor, Mega Metagross or some other fat steel, you're gonna have to play mind games to avoid sacking something, or avoid taking major damage. Sand on the rise means mons like Rotom-Wash and Lando-T are gonna be used more, and neither one is too big of an issue for Kyube to KO, and it's also really great at killing fat stuff like Hippo and Amoonguss. There's also the fact it's one of the few mons that can check electric types on offense, and use them as an opportunity to KO something. Being able to 1HKO some of the most commons mons like Garchomp, Lando-T and Heatran is great too. Keep in A

This little guy can bring a lot to a team, whether it's utility in the SpD set with rocks, or offense with a choice scarf, or even healing wish to bring something back late game. It's definitely unique in a way that it's resistant to fairy, can provide rocks, and provide momentum while maintaining a good amount of bulk to switch into a handful of special attackers. It's got a huge movepool nearly no one uses with stuff like Icy Wind and Energy Ball, which make great lures for stuff like Garchomp and Lando-T, so that's cool. I definitely think Jirachi is on par with the other mons in the A rank, so Jirachi to A

 

[Brad Conway]

First post in here! played 250+ matches on the OU ladder now, mainly with an offensive team and one pokemon stands out as underrated: Mega Manectric, I propose it goes from A to A+. The speed, special attack and move pool work wonders in this meta. If you keep your manectric around with volt switch and read to the ground types coming in to HP ice you are comfortably winning a lot of battles. Sure there are checks and counters but after being intimidated garchomp doesn't OHKO with EQ meaning you beat all variants if it isn't scarfed which isn't prevalent in the meta rn. The fast volt switch means it works well on balance and offense teams as you can switch into something more favourable. Sure you only see the one variant but the coverage is excellent and you can volt switch out of unfavourable matchups.

 

[Clair]

The current discussion slate has been covered pretty comprehensively I think so I'm going to raise a couple of new nominations:

B -> B+

The big thing here is competition with Amoonguss, who is already in B+. Amoonguss makes for a more reliable answer to Azumarill and Keldeo, while providing some useful utility between Clear Smog and Spore (checking CM Fable is especially useful). On the other hand, Tangrowth's offensive stats and movepool allow it to run AV effectively, checking three attacks Manaphy reasonably well, mons like (M-)Alakazam and Gengar, and the likes of Excadrill and Lando-T (which is significant given the present popularity of sand offense). Tangrowth can also apply pressure to offensive and even balanced teams with its great coverage. Imo there's no reason for Tang to be ranked below Amoonguss in this metagame, and it should be in B+.

B- -> B

Competition with Skarmory as a physically defensive Defogger hurts a lot with Lando-T, Azumarill and Exca usage as high as they are. Being weak to Stealth Rock and the common Rock-type coverage doesn't help either. However, B- seems to be underselling Mandibuzz. It has higher physical and significantly higher special bulk than Skarm, as well as its major selling point, STAB Foul Play, allowing it to check almost the entire physical meta, as well as soft-check things like Gengar and Zam. Overcoat makes it a more reliable answer to the popular Breloom as well. Finally, Mandi has options like Taunt, Knock Off, Toxic, and even Iron Defense, which can be viably used thanks to Foul Play's compression of threat coverage. Very comparable to Zapdos, another B- mon, but I think Mandi probably merits being one sub-rank higher.

 

[BlazeLatias]

First post in here! played 250+ matches on the OU ladder now, mainly with an offensive team and one pokemon stands out as underrated: Mega Manectric, I propose it goes from A to A+. The speed, special attack and move pool work wonders in this meta. If you keep your manectric around with volt switch and read to the ground types coming in to HP ice you are comfortably winning a lot of battles. Sure there are checks and counters but after being intimidated garchomp doesn't OHKO with EQ meaning you beat all variants if it isn't scarfed which isn't prevalent in the meta rn. The fast volt switch means it works well on balance and offense teams as you can switch into something more favourable. Sure you only see the one variant but the coverage is excellent and you can volt switch out of unfavourable matchups.

Manectric shouldent rise. Mane's kinda struggling right now with with all these ground types running around which can put you in poor situations. On top of this A+ is just Waaay to high for mane. while it does have a great matchup vs offense its not a amazing matchup worthy of A+ rank. A is fine purely because you got stuff like Sand being everywhere and that is a huge pain for mane simply because of how stuff like band tar/scarf tar/chople tar assuming they come in trap mane and do serious damage to it with pursuit and seeing as ttar is pretty good right now thats a problem. You also got exca which can revenge kill mane in sand which like i said is pretty prominent currently. The thing is that mane cant even ohko stuff like landot/chomp which means if chomp/landot are at full hp your forced to switch mane out or they get up rocks/Eq you doing massive damage to mane. I feel like nothing truly changed for mega manectric that would make it rise. Solid mega, just not a A+ rank threat.

Also forgot to mention stuff like mega latias becoming more common which eats up hp ice for breakfast. Clefable/zard-x also prove to be issues for mane. Gastrodon also (pretty nice rn)

 

[GlassVeins]

Honestly, I don't even think Zapdos is bad at all right now; it's a very nice defensive mon that can fit well on balanced teams. People talk mostly about its Defog set, which I personally think is really not good right now, as it's kind of a shitty defogger anyway. Its real value lies in its other defensive sets, such as SubToxic, or this set which I have been using recently:

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 64 Def / 180 SpD / 16 Spe
Calm Nature
- Discharge
- Heat Wave
- Roost
- Toxic

Specially Defensive Zapdos makes use of its' nice offensive presence for a defensive mon, as 125 SpA is very nice even uninvested. Discharge is one of the more underrated moves for a defensive mon such as Zapdos and can cause it to be very irritating for the opponent to handle, and it checks the likes of Scizor, Ferro, bulky waters, and even ground types like Lando and Chomp which do not appreciate Toxic. This set is one of THE best answers to Torn in the meta right now. Overall this is a mon that people are sleeping on because they are still stuck on the viability of its poorer set in Defog, but as an overall defensive mon it is very appreciated in this meta and I personally think B- is too harsh for it and I would like to nominate Zapdos for B rank.

Edit: And another great thing about Zapdos is that it completely shuts down utility M-Latias which has been on the rise as of late, this is a great boon for Zapdos as it can easily heal off any damage from Ice Beam and cripple it with Toxic/Discharge para which is cool.

I absolutely support this, and I'd like to add my set:
Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 68 SpA / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Defog
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]

HP Ice really surprises the ground type switch ins, and t-bolt helps you play mind games with opposing bisharps
I feel that this replay demonstrates some of its excellent qualities:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-330672760

 

[Martin]

Zaps best set atm is not its Defog set but rather its SubToxic set, which is able to take a dump on current meta trends like the abundance of fat grounds while also being able to stall out low PP moves like Stone Edge with ease due to Pressure, Roost and the fact that lures Stone Edges with its typing, allowing it to take advantage if the increasing Tar usage in a way that it would be otherwise unable to do. It also enjoys the increasing usage if MPinsir as a big niche it has is as one of the few hard stops to it while being able to stall out the rare Stone Edge variants with relative ease.

Honestly I'm completely neutral on the rise but currently its ranking rests mostly on its SubToxic set as opposed to the ones that its being argued for.

 

[bludz]

Think I commented on this before when Albacore brought this up, but I was unaware that Sub Toxic Zapdos was a thing. In fact I don't think I've ever seen someone use that set.

It is certainly ranked based on Defog, SubToxic is incredibly rare and hardly relevant at all.

 

[Master B8s]

On the Topic of Zapdos, Though I've never used the set, I believe its best set ATM would be The SpDef set. It makes for a nice Torn-T counter and still can take on threats its supposes to check like Mega Pinser, (mega)- Scizor, Bisharp and Lopunny (softer against this one depending on if it runs Ice Punch). The way i see it is it becomes a better soft check to some major threats in the tier such as Keldeo (Specs 2HKO if it gets the burn or there are rocks up), Talonflame, Serperior, Alakazam, and Mega Metagross. I will not support any nomination for zapdos to move up because as explained, i have not tried it out (will try it though) but it does need hazard support and rocks off the field to check most of these, but that is why it is sitting in B-. I see it as a nice compression for balance teams that might need an extra soft check to these pokemon which balance teams struggle against.

 

[Kulnic]

Hoopa-U A+->A

Before everyone jumps down my damn throat saying "Hoopa is one of the strongest offensive mons in the tier!" or "Mate this is your second post you don't know crap!" hear me out.

I'm just going to say it straight up that Hoopa is a great pokemon. It has completely insane 160/170 offensive stats and a great 130 special defense stat. There is just simply the one stat issue that comes out when you see Hoopa's stats. It as absolutely DREADFUL physical defense, and it's mediocre 80 HP stat doesn't cover it up at all, not forgetting to mention that it's by far biggest weakness, Bug is mostly physical. Well I'm assuming your thinking "Well it has coverage moves like Fire Punch or Hidden Power Fire, which does massive damage to Scizor!". Well that doesn't save it from this:
+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 363-427 (120.5 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 403-475 (133.8 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not to mention some other not so fun things like this:
252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 278-329 (92.3 - 109.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 298-352 (99 - 116.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 648-763 (215.2 - 253.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 288-340 (95.6 - 112.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
I could show more calcs, but pretty much Hoopa is frail as crap.

In my opinion, a pokemon that is ranked A+ should be a solid ALL AROUND pokemon that can help out the team in multiple ways. Hoopa can help a team alot, that is if it doesn't die to a strong physical move. I'm not saying that it isn't a good pokemon, I'm just saying it isn't worthy of the A+ ranking it has.

 

[Bluemargay]

On the subject of Zapdos, the best set is the offensive set. It's losing a lot of potential by being used defensively. Being able to speed tie with Medicham, Manaphy and Charizard Y is really good. I also don't like using Roost because it needs Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, Heat Wave and Hidden Power Ice

Also to the post about Hoopa, it's not supposed to take physical hits and you have Mega Scizor at +2 like it has the ability to magically come in at +2. Regular Bullet Punch doesn't ko. Weavile and Tornadus are also physically frail.

 

[jvl101993]

On the subject of Zapdos, the best set is the offensive set. It's losing a lot of potential by being used defensively. Being able to speed tie with Medicham, Manaphy and Charizard Y is really good. I also don't like using Roost because it needs Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, Heat Wave and Hidden Power Ice

Also to the post about Hoopa, it's not supposed to take physical hits and you have Mega Scizor at +2 like it has the ability to magically come in at +2. Regular Bullet Punch doesn't ko. Weavile and Tornadus are also physically frail.

If I want to use an offensive Electric, Mega-Manectric, Thundurus, and even Raikou are above Zapdos for me. I see no real reason to use offensive Zapdos over Thundurus, when the latter has the same power, is faster, and can either fire off priority T-Waves or boost its SpA stat. Same with risking a speed tie vs. the aforementioned mons, when the other three outright outspeed the Base 100's, and even the Base 110's (which is really the benchmark for "fast" in this metagame).

Part of what makes Electrics so good is the general offensive pressure they apply with their naturally good Speed tiers, which offensive Zapdos doesn't provide. Yes: LO Zapdos is stronger than Mega-Manectric and non-Specs/unboosted Raikou, but M-Mane's Speed tier is terrific, and it's more used as a pivot. If you want a direct comparison to Thundurus, it's not used much as a pivot over its main two sets, but Electrics generate their pressure from being both fast and strong. Zapdos isn't the former (Base 100 isn't fast in this meta, with Keldeo, Latis, Torn-T, etc. all being very common, good threats right now, and using Modest for the extra power's also not a viable option because then you're not Speed-tying the mons you mentioned).

Instead, Zapdos has more bulk over its Electric counterparts, as well as reliable hazard removal and reliable recovery. Electrics are easily worn down by hazards and pivoting in this meta, but defensive Zapdos has the bulk to take hits, Roost off the damage, and clear hazards. It really needs to use Defensive sets to stand out in this metagame when there are not one, but three better offensive Electrics.

I'm not trying to pump Zapdos up for a rise: it definitely has its shortcomings as a Pokemon, but it has a niche over the other Electrics because of what it offers defensively. Offensive Zapdos isn't worth using, in my opinion.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Zapdos does have roost over its counterparts though, so unlike them it has higher staying power if you want to go with an offensive set. Thunderbolt/Heat Wave/HP Ice/Roost is what I'd use, since it has decent bulk, huge offensive power and still decent speed even if it's slower than stuff like latios and keldeo.

Or you can simply use a Specs set with Volt Switch and a Modest nature to hit much harder than Raikou. Offensive Zapdos has its uses (fares much better against ferrothorn and hippo + has a fair amount of physical bulk).

 

[Clair]

In my opinion, a pokemon that is ranked A+ should be a solid ALL AROUND pokemon that can help out the team in multiple ways.

This comes up a lot and no. A mon is ranked where it is depending on how good it is in the meta, not whether it satisfies an arbitrary criterion. By your logic Deoxys-A, for instance, wouldn't qualify for A+. Hoopa compensates adequately for its exploitable physical defense by being the best wallbreaker in the tier.

That said, the meta is more and more offensive and it's not exactly helping Hoopa. It's also in a kind of weird situation where its difficulties switching in and limited threat coverage really restrict the kinds of teams which can use it effectively, so that its usage doesn't accurately reflect its effectiveness.

This raises an interesting question I've been wondering about for a while now. Should a Pokemon's viability reflect its ability to form effective cores with other mons? Or should its viability be treated as a stand-alone, intrinsic quality ("the pokemon vs the metagame")?

Here's an example - if you don't use Skarmory while building stall, you almost inevitably wind up being weak to Choice Band Azumarill. Not because there aren't other viable defensive mons which can counter Azumarill, but because these alternative Pokemon can't form a core with other defensive mons to cover the majority of the meta in the way that Skarm / Amoong / Chans / Quag does. For this reason, Pokemon like Ferrothorn are significantly less popular on stall than their intrinsic capabilities would suggest.

Obviously in the majority of cases, these kind of restrictions are insignificant, and even where they are more relevant, they are too inexact and complex to really quantify. Definitely something to keep in mind when trying to gauge viability however.

I also wonder whether practical outcomes, as opposed to theorymon or replays showing the standalone effectiveness of a Pokemon, shouldn't ideally be integrated further into the viability rankings. It would be fascinating to see a Pokemon's overall W/L for a set period when paired with various partners (simplistically, Ferrothorn + Lando-T might score 55%, whereas Ferrothorn + Chansey might score 45%) - something I feel would give us a lot of insight into the underlying mechanics of the metagame.

 

[Desterrada]

Kulnic

This is also my second post in this forum, but I think I can answer you in a clear way.

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 363-427 (120.5 - 141.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Hoopa Unbound: 403-475 (133.8 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

First, if you let Scizor / M-Scizor SD in your face being Hoopa-U and not counter back, you are doing something wrong.
If, like your example, you stay / switch at a X2 Atk Scizor / M-Scizor with Hoopa-U. Well, you are screwed. The same thing applies to the rest of calculations, Hoopa-U is NOT a tank, is not there to receive blows or gain free turns on wasted moves.

Hoopa-U is a demolisher glass cannon than can sweep fast and furious. His current rank in this thread is that role. You have a wrong concept about the rankings and someone explained it better than me before.

 

[Bluemargay]

When it comes to what Zapdos can do that other electric types can't: Heat Wave and Defog. Thundurus can't KO Mega Scizor and can't take out Ferrothorn without the unreliable Focus Blast. While Manectric does learn Flamethrower, it loses to scarf Excadrill. Zapdos is not only immune to Ground but even without investment lives a rock slide.

Zapdos also can do what no other electric type can and defog. When it comes to offensive defoggers there's Zapdos, Latias, and Latios (which is not a good defogger due to its inability to take hits)

 

[Albacore]

Defog is literally the only reason to use offensive Zapdos over Thundurus, and honestly, if handicapping yourself like that just to gain hazard removal is worth it, you're probably better off rethinking your team entirely.

For the record, I do think SubToxic is Zapdos's "best" set in terms of how good it is as its job. I always found Zapdos to be a really mediocre defogger, not just because of its SR weakness, but also because it doesn't have the bulk to come in on much, which paired with said SR weakness makes it hard for it to even find opportunities to come in when they are up, let alone actually remove those rocks without losing momentum. Without Toxic, it's unable to do anything about a lot of Pokemon, to the point where I'd probably run it even on Defog sets. I find that 95% of the time, you're just better off using Latios or Skarmory as a defogger, both of which are better defoggers than Zapdos for completely different reasons

The obvious problem with SubToxic, however, is that it kinda requires hazard removal itself, which makes it very hard to fit on teams especially when compared to stuff like Rotom and Raikou which basically does more-or-less the same stuff, just without the crippling Rocks weakness. So yeah, I don't see Zapdos as deserving of a raise.


Mandibuzz is actually kinda interesting to me. I do think it's better than Zapdos as a whole, although not much better at being a defogger. It does wall a handful of really dangerous threats like Zam and Hoopa-U, and can hold its own vs a ton of others, which is nice. The problem with Mandibuzz is that there are some battles where it will just do absolutely nothing but sap away momentum and repeatedly give free turns to Clefable or Keldeo or Diancie or whatever. It can admittedly do very well against some teams, but its tendency to completely fall flat at times always bothers me. That being said, it's better than most B- ranks, and honestly, I'm not too impressed by the B ranks at the moment, so I guess it *could* fit in B rank? But I'm still not really buying it.


Oh yeah and Jirachi should probably move up, not much to add to what's already been said about it, but its Scarf set is really good right now.

 

[TURBODERP]

Mandibuzz is actually kinda interesting to me. I do think it's better than Zapdos as a whole, although not much better at being a defogger. It does wall a handful of really dangerous threats like Zam and Hoopa-U, and can hold its own vs a ton of others, which is nice. The problem with Mandibuzz is that there are some battles where it will just do absolutely nothing but sap away momentum and repeatedly give free turns to Clefable or Keldeo or Diancie or whatever. It can admittedly do very well against some teams, but its tendency to completely fall flat at times always bothers me. That being said, it's better than most B- ranks, and honestly, I'm not too impressed by the B ranks at the moment, so I guess it *could* fit in B rank? But I'm still not really buying it.

Even if you're running Mandibuzz as a Defogger with Roost, Foul Play, and Defog, you can put U-Turn in the last slot. Sure, you lose out on Taunt or Knock Off, but against the threats you listed, you don't want to do either usually since you'll take too much damage and not be able to check/wall other important things. Plus, a slow U-Turn is nice, and Mandibuzz has a good speed tier for that (not TOO slow, but not very fast at all since you run 16 Speed EVs max usually, to outspeed Adamant BD Azumarill).

 

[CharizardIsMeh]

Breloom to A : disagree

Personally I love Breloom, but moving it to A is bit of overestimation. First of all, bar its Attack, it stats are really mediocre at best with bad 60 / 80 / 60 bulk and a terrible base 70 Spe for an offensive mon. You'll say that it has Mach Punch to remediate to this, but lots of fast offensive mons resists Mach Punch (Lando, Latios, Tornadus, Dragonite, Talon...) and bar Lando they all KO it, because of its fraility. Also, Grass + Fight is resisted by Flying and Poison types, such as Mega Venu and Torn which are pretty common, and its best coverage moves are Rock Tomb (but you really need to predict the bird's switch in) and Facade (which only works on the Poison Heal sets, and these sets are only relevant against defensive teams), so lots of Pokemon can counter Breloom after the Sleep Clause activated.
You could say it's useful on SW teams, but bar the horribly passive Shuckle and Smeargle I don't really know who are the setters of this EH in OU.

So Breloom has too many flaws imo to be worth A rank.

 

[AD impish john]

A -> A-
Mega Gyarados before Mega Evolution has a Flying Typing making it take about 25% of HP every time it switches in from Stealth Rock damage. The Stealth Rock weakness Pre-Mega doesn't sound so bad because you can just Mega Evolve to take less damage, but there are situations where you won't want to Mega because keeping the water/flying tying along with intimdate can help you set up on some stuff like Scarf Lando-T locked into EQ. Mega gyarados having no recovery means it has an easier time getting worn down. Losing 25% from stealth rocks pre mega really hurts, and then being prone to chip damage from Garchomp, Ferrothorn and Rocky Helmet users like Lando-T + Skarmory really wears it down quickly. This can leave it in a position to be revenge killed fairly easily by priority users like Mega Lopunny or even Scizor if it's worn down enough.

While there aren't many Counters, Mega Gyarados has a ton of Checks that are growing more common in the Overused Metagame. Keldeo is one the most common checks to Mega Gyarados as it can outspeed and tank pretty much any hit if Gyara hasn't Dragon Danced yet. Clefable is also a pretty common check as it can T-Wave crippling Mega Gyara or can just Moonblast for damage. Breloom is becoming more common and it can easily do major damage to Mega Gyara with a Mach Punch. Tangrowth are also becoming more common since Sand Offense being so dominant right now adding another block in the road for Mega Gyarados's sweep. Setting up a Dragon Dance can be a little hard thanks to all of it's checks mentioned above being more common and the fact it can't really set up on much besides a Choiced Locked Pokemon, Weavile and Bisharp, but even then Weavile may have Low Kick.

Overall, with it's checks becoming more common, as well as methods to wear it down quickly (hazards, chip damage users) and being limited in finding a way to setup makes it much harder to use in the current metagame, which is why I beleive it should drop to A-

 

[squirtletheturtle]

Regarding Zapdos and its Subroost set, i personally don't think that it is its best set.

its a nice relic from gen 4, but its a lot harder to use now than then. for one, the subtoxic set was best used with toxic spikes so you can free up a moveslot for something like heat wave or hp ice. unfortunately, not many toxic spikers are all that viable in OU. Tentacruel, Roserade, and Forretress have fallen quite far. and other mons like dragalge and scolipede have other issues to contend with. furthermore, with defog making it a lot easier to remove spikes/toxic spikes, the combo of subroost zapdos + tspikes isn't as viable as before.

that said, subroost zapdos is now forced to run toxic in order to do what its supposed to. this means that you're a complete sitting duck in the face of mons like excadrill, ferrothorn, venusaur (who also happens to absorb toxic spikes), amoonguss, gliscor, and clefable. it actually has a lot more trouble "stalling" in practice. and of course, stealth rock weakness blows.

SubRoost Zapdos needs a lot of support and has four moveslot syndrome. The tspikes + subroost isn't as viable anymore and the abundance of pokemon that can full blow stop zapdos hurts it even more. the defog (sp def) is probably the best set, having an easier time doing its job and all, and being a decent answer to tornadus-T....and that set is B- so yea, zapdos should stay B-. (if game freak reads this, please give the legendary bird trio megas. and give zapdos hurricane please. flaming chicken moltres can use hurricane, but a bird that causes thunderstorms can't....)


Mandibuzz is pretty cool. Its typing is pretty good being probably the best switchin to Hoopa-U. comfortably switching into psychics is pretty swell too. i think the main problem is its four moveslot syndrome cuz it really likes having taunt, brave bird, knock off, foul play, roost, toxic, defog and uturn. im neutral on this rising. but i do think its legitimately decent.


Speaking of Hoopa, should Hoopa-C really be in the C rank? it prevents you from using hoopa-unbound, its slow, extremely weak to pursuit trapping and almost any physical attack. i haven't use it much so i can't say, but it seems kind of underwhelming based on the issues with its trick room and nasty plot sets.

 

[ArcanePhoenix]

The problem with Hoopa-C is that it's main target, slow builds, are getting less and less common over time. On top of that most remaining "slow builds", if you can even call them that have more Issues with Hoopa-U, Manaphy, Kyu-B etc so they kinda overprepare for them. As long the Meta shifts towards sand and/or dark spamm Hoopa-C just isn't good. Add opportunity cost on top of that and you have an almost completly outclassed Mon with higher opportunity cost than the rest of its kind. If you want to watch slower builds die just pick TTar, which is rising in usage anyway, together with Manaphy, which dropped for the same reasons as Hoopa-C. C- sounds really harsh for that base sp.atk + ghost stab but in this meta its kinda hard to use.

 

[HailFall]

Mega Venusaur from A -> A+

This guy is a monster. Venu has 5 useful resistances, and its ability eliminates 2 of its weaknesses, leaving it only weak to flying and psychic. Furthermore venusaur has access to synthesis, which combined with great bulk makes it incredibly difficult to KO for unprepared builds. It can take on some of OU's top threats like Keldeo, Azumarill, Clefable, and more. It's a very low risk high reward mega which is easy to support due to its limited weaknesses and plentiful resistances. It fits on stall, balance, and bulky offense builds well and is a top pick for each. Venusaur also has access to good utility in sleep powder and leech seed, making it very annoying for teams to deal with.