I see, sorry for the mistake, will correct it.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)
- Thread starter bludz
- Start date
I see, sorry for the mistake, will correct it.
Mega Medicham: A to A+
obliterates much of the meta with its insane attacking power, nice movepool options so things like clef and slowbro cant even reliably check it defensively, access to [double] priority so mega evolving, chip damaging, and sand stalling is super easy while remaining competitive vs fast offense, and pairing it voltturn and playing competently with it can easily net you at least 2 kills per match. also completely tears up fatter teams that lack reuniclus, mew, msab, and more fat shit like this, but most of them are either relatively uncommon or bad (looking at you cofag and cresselia). also please dont use that bullshit "it doesnt preform well vs offense" excuse because look what happened to hoopa-u (albeit it had 0 switch ins at all but at least medi has a better speed tier + [double] priority). getting chip damage on its checks isnt even hard too because you can just easily spam voltturn and wear down the opp's team pretty quick, forcing repeated heals and putting them in range of one of medi's attacks.
Mega Sableye: A to A-
incredibly easy to chip down w/ stuff like scald and lava plume, stray volt switches from rotom, and sand so you're forced to heal constantly, many hazard users have adapted to its presence (sd chomp/lando, clef, dazzling klefki), and it gets chipped pretty easily if it switches into them anyway, and it is not even a reliable counter to mega medi because it gets chipped so easily (you let it get down to like 70% and you die). ofc its typing and abilities are amazing, but it isnt difficult to push it to its limit at all. its also bait for things like keldeo, which just leads to amoongy getting burned, which blows or tg + rd manaphy, which can set upfor free and blow back your squad, especially if chansey is low/it got pursuit trapped or something.
Jirachi: A- to A
can provide so much for teams (pivot, hw user, sr user, voltturn user, and wish user), checks big threats such like latios, clefable, and mega diancie, iron head flinches are super clutch (seriously being able to beat lando and excadrill 1v1 with just flinches is retarded), and its nice bait for its common switch ins (thinking about heatran, etc), making it so it can just click uturn and bring out the keldeo/medicham/heracross to snap their neck.
obliterates much of the meta with its insane attacking power, nice movepool options so things like clef and slowbro cant even reliably check it defensively, access to [double] priority so mega evolving, chip damaging, and sand stalling is super easy while remaining competitive vs fast offense, and pairing it voltturn and playing competently with it can easily net you at least 2 kills per match. also completely tears up fatter teams that lack reuniclus, mew, msab, and more fat shit like this, but most of them are either relatively uncommon or bad (looking at you cofag and cresselia). also please dont use that bullshit "it doesnt preform well vs offense" excuse because look what happened to hoopa-u (albeit it had 0 switch ins at all but at least medi has a better speed tier + [double] priority). getting chip damage on its checks isnt even hard too because you can just easily spam voltturn and wear down the opp's team pretty quick, forcing repeated heals and putting them in range of one of medi's attacks.
Mega Sableye: A to A-
incredibly easy to chip down w/ stuff like scald and lava plume, stray volt switches from rotom, and sand so you're forced to heal constantly, many hazard users have adapted to its presence (sd chomp/lando, clef, dazzling klefki), and it gets chipped pretty easily if it switches into them anyway, and it is not even a reliable counter to mega medi because it gets chipped so easily (you let it get down to like 70% and you die). ofc its typing and abilities are amazing, but it isnt difficult to push it to its limit at all. its also bait for things like keldeo, which just leads to amoongy getting burned, which blows or tg + rd manaphy, which can set upfor free and blow back your squad, especially if chansey is low/it got pursuit trapped or something.
Jirachi: A- to A
can provide so much for teams (pivot, hw user, sr user, voltturn user, and wish user), checks big threats such like latios, clefable, and mega diancie, iron head flinches are super clutch (seriously being able to beat lando and excadrill 1v1 with just flinches is retarded), and its nice bait for its common switch ins (thinking about heatran, etc), making it so it can just click uturn and bring out the keldeo/medicham/heracross to snap their neck.
Man people really exaggerate the necessity of volt-turn around here. Learn to pull a double once in a while (only when you need to), and you'll realise how wrong it is to say that "X Mon needs volt-turn support". I mean you can say Mega Medi needs said support to make the most of it, but that is something that can be said for basically every Mon there is. Volt-turn, when available and applicable, will always improve your matchup or the individual usability of any Mon.
Basic difference between Medi and Hoopa-Balanced in terms of offense matchup is that Hoopa actually had special bulk, Medi does not. I don't see Medi living Draco from Latios.
With regards to Mega Eye, of course it's gonna underperform if it's left in on Scalds and Plumes lol. Burn ruins Mega Eye, you should always have better counter play on a Mega Eye team to Scald and Plume than leaving Mega Eye in to Knock Off. Such a bad play. The damage of volts from Rotom aren't the problem, the problem is that your opp gets to bring in whatever threat they have to beat Mega Eye, and this can be applied to everything on your standard Mega Eye stall (eg: Volt out on Amoong the second time it comes in into Talon/Lati/Torn/whatever, Volt out on Chansey to *insert threat here*.) the problem of Volt/U-turn grabbing turns and forcing you to not recover applies to everything on fat. SD Chomp has been a thing forever, and Lum SD Lando is rare as fuck and should never be your play of choice vs. Mega Eye unless it's a dedicated lead. Dazzling Klefki is awful, especially when you consider that it's a 3HKO at best on Mega Eye, not to mention it doesn't exist. Your last section on Mega Eye is the part that I disagree with the most, on a fundamental level. Amoong is always getting burnt by Keldeo, that's part and parcel of being a Keldeo "counter". Basically, what you're saying with the whole "if chansey is weak and they have Mana" is that if the circumstances in which you have already lost come about, then Mega Eye is useless?
Basic difference between Medi and Hoopa-Balanced in terms of offense matchup is that Hoopa actually had special bulk, Medi does not. I don't see Medi living Draco from Latios.
With regards to Mega Eye, of course it's gonna underperform if it's left in on Scalds and Plumes lol. Burn ruins Mega Eye, you should always have better counter play on a Mega Eye team to Scald and Plume than leaving Mega Eye in to Knock Off. Such a bad play. The damage of volts from Rotom aren't the problem, the problem is that your opp gets to bring in whatever threat they have to beat Mega Eye, and this can be applied to everything on your standard Mega Eye stall (eg: Volt out on Amoong the second time it comes in into Talon/Lati/Torn/whatever, Volt out on Chansey to *insert threat here*.) the problem of Volt/U-turn grabbing turns and forcing you to not recover applies to everything on fat. SD Chomp has been a thing forever, and Lum SD Lando is rare as fuck and should never be your play of choice vs. Mega Eye unless it's a dedicated lead. Dazzling Klefki is awful, especially when you consider that it's a 3HKO at best on Mega Eye, not to mention it doesn't exist. Your last section on Mega Eye is the part that I disagree with the most, on a fundamental level. Amoong is always getting burnt by Keldeo, that's part and parcel of being a Keldeo "counter". Basically, what you're saying with the whole "if chansey is weak and they have Mana" is that if the circumstances in which you have already lost come about, then Mega Eye is useless?
i really hate to do this, but just to use the tyrantrum example again, please tell me what switches into choice band tyrantrum? slowbro gets 2hkoed, suicune gets 2hkoed, hippowdon gets 2hkoed by CB outrage and can't OHKO back, def lando-T can't guarantee an OHKO after stealth rock either, while head smash easily 2hkoes through intimidate, same for gliscor, chomp loses to outrage, clef and azu lose to head smash easily, diancie gets OHKOed pre-mega, hell MEGA SLOWBRO IS 2HKOED AFTER STEALTH ROCK, let's raise tyrantrum to A+! oh yeah, tyrantrum can also boost with dragon dance, something mega medicham could only dream of, and possibly sweep at late-game
seriously the mega medicham wank is just ugh -_- sure HJK is a bitch and ohkoes everything, and mega medi has the coverage to push through some of its checks (slowbro via thunder punch, ice punch to get rid of lando-t and chomp, bullet punch for mega diancie and weavile etc) but nobody mentions how it switches into nothing in the first place, its typing doesn't really help it, neither does its weavile-like natural bulk (hoopa-U could at least switch into mega manectric for example, or live a draco meteor from lati@s) and 100 base speed, while better than hoopa-U's, is still not enough to threaten offensive teams as much as you guys make it to be, especially when shit like CB weavile's pursuit does some good damage even when you're not switching
moving to A+ purely because it can wallbreak is bullshit. unlike hoopa-U who could fullfill a variety of roles such as a late-game choice scarf user, just break through everything with choice band/specs, boost with nasty plot, lo 4 attacks, sub + 3 attacks, hell an AV set with drain punch to sponge special attacks with decent success etc.
mega medi is just a good A-rank wallbreaker that is almost impossible to switch into, but so are many other wallbreakers that are rather obscure; mega medi's advantages over tyrantrum have definitely been pointed out in this thread, and they are obvious: superior speed, fake out, better coverage etc... but moving it to A+ just because it can wallbreak is lame. stop wanking mega medicham
seriously the mega medicham wank is just ugh -_- sure HJK is a bitch and ohkoes everything, and mega medi has the coverage to push through some of its checks (slowbro via thunder punch, ice punch to get rid of lando-t and chomp, bullet punch for mega diancie and weavile etc) but nobody mentions how it switches into nothing in the first place, its typing doesn't really help it, neither does its weavile-like natural bulk (hoopa-U could at least switch into mega manectric for example, or live a draco meteor from lati@s) and 100 base speed, while better than hoopa-U's, is still not enough to threaten offensive teams as much as you guys make it to be, especially when shit like CB weavile's pursuit does some good damage even when you're not switching
moving to A+ purely because it can wallbreak is bullshit. unlike hoopa-U who could fullfill a variety of roles such as a late-game choice scarf user, just break through everything with choice band/specs, boost with nasty plot, lo 4 attacks, sub + 3 attacks, hell an AV set with drain punch to sponge special attacks with decent success etc.
mega medi is just a good A-rank wallbreaker that is almost impossible to switch into, but so are many other wallbreakers that are rather obscure; mega medi's advantages over tyrantrum have definitely been pointed out in this thread, and they are obvious: superior speed, fake out, better coverage etc... but moving it to A+ just because it can wallbreak is lame. stop wanking mega medicham
Numerous fair points. Don't get me wrong, I understand the mon is severely flawed, but you have to try to sell something when making a nomination for a rise you know? Maybe I oversold it, but I do still think it has more utility than some in C-. But I also think it would thrive if played differently. I actually wouldn't advocate Moonlight. I'd just go Dual Screens or single screen and Lunar Dance. Enemy has a Scizor? OK, set up Reflect as they switch Scizor in. Thanks switch to bulky Lando-T as they SD. Now it's only +1 while you have Reflect up, or, it used U-Turn and took some Helmet damage. Something to that effect. But sure, I can get some replays first, that's only fair.
I'm seriously sick and tired of people comparing Mega Medicham to Choice Band Tyrantrum, DoABarrelRoll
Tyrantrum, with the Choice Band, may be comparable to MegaCham in power:
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 348-409 (102 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 352-415 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yet there are some significant differences between the two.
Defensively, Tyrantrum's typing sucks. Sure it can switch in a bit better against Talonflame (and is how any NORMAL user would Boost, not fearing Will-O-Wisp thanks to Lum Berry), but outside of that, you have some difficulties. This is a Pokemon weak to Fight, Ground, Ice, Dragon, Steel, and Fairy, so its ability to switch is even more difficult despite the Fire, Electric, Poison, and Flying resists. MegaCham may have low bulk, but you can definitely say it's not the worst and not as easily exploitable on one side or another. Tyrantrum, on the other hand, sucks so hard Specially that Gengar's Life Orb Sludge Wave is a 2HKO. This also doesn't take into consideration that Tyrantrum's speed is lower than MegaCham's, meaning that outspeeding Tyrantrum is made even easier than Cham. Finally, even though Tyrantrum has a similar power output as MegaCham after a Choice Band, it also has the same output after a Dragon Dance, which is vastly superior to the Choice Band set to begin with.
Tyrantrum cannot hold a torch to wall breaking in comparison to MegaCham. CelticPride has already voiced that the comparison of MegaCham to Rampardos is ridiculous, but it's about the same with Tyrantrum. Gary2346 has already voiced that there are enough flaws that prevent Tyrantrum from being an effective Wallbreaker, hoping that he wouldn't have to list them (which I have to, it seems). As I've said before, Kyurem-B is the only true comparison we have, but even it goes down because of its typing giving it switch-in difficulty, a Stealth Rock weakness, and reliance on Roost in order to stay relatively healthy (not to mention its Speed is lower than MegaCham's). However, if this is not enough to debunk the Tyrantrum Argument, allow me to respond to this:
Hippowdon can Slack Off stall when Outraged or 2HKO with a 0EV Earthquake.
Mega Aggron laughs at it pretty hardcore.
That's roughly three Pokemon in comparison to MegaCham's 4, which is as comparable to the power output.
Tyrantrum may have similar power output and a lack of true switch-ins, but there are two areas where Tyrantrum fails that, while I've brought both up before, need a repeat.
Tyrantrum has six easily exploitable weaknesses in comparison to MegaCham's 3. If you honestly think MegaCham has difficulty switching in, Tyrantrum is even worse. As mentioned before, it cannot even take hits on the Special Side.
Tyrantrum is left outsped by multiple Pokemon, making outspeeding and Revenge Killing even less of an issue than with MegaCham. Mega Medicham requires Pokemon with Choice Scarf or those that are naturally faster, either one. There are plenty, sure, but it's much more selective than Tyrantrum, which is outsped by far too many Pokemon to count; Jolly Dragonite, for instance, laughs at Tyrantrum's attempt to outspeed it, even before Dragon Dancing, something that even MegaCham doesn't have to worry about.
These two problems above are enough to show that, while Tyrantrum is a boss thanks to its power and coverage, its speed and typing let it down far too much for it to be effective in this metagame. Thus, MegaCham still remains the best Wallbreaker of the tier.
I'm going to end this post with a very insightful line: Quit comparing Mega Medicham to Rampardos and Tyrantrum. It's ignorant. Please come up with actual arguments that Mega Medicham does not deserve an A+ ranking, since barely any decent arguments actually exist.
Tyrantrum, with the Choice Band, may be comparable to MegaCham in power:
252 Atk Choice Band Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 348-409 (102 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 352-415 (103.2 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yet there are some significant differences between the two.
Defensively, Tyrantrum's typing sucks. Sure it can switch in a bit better against Talonflame (and is how any NORMAL user would Boost, not fearing Will-O-Wisp thanks to Lum Berry), but outside of that, you have some difficulties. This is a Pokemon weak to Fight, Ground, Ice, Dragon, Steel, and Fairy, so its ability to switch is even more difficult despite the Fire, Electric, Poison, and Flying resists. MegaCham may have low bulk, but you can definitely say it's not the worst and not as easily exploitable on one side or another. Tyrantrum, on the other hand, sucks so hard Specially that Gengar's Life Orb Sludge Wave is a 2HKO. This also doesn't take into consideration that Tyrantrum's speed is lower than MegaCham's, meaning that outspeeding Tyrantrum is made even easier than Cham. Finally, even though Tyrantrum has a similar power output as MegaCham after a Choice Band, it also has the same output after a Dragon Dance, which is vastly superior to the Choice Band set to begin with.
Tyrantrum cannot hold a torch to wall breaking in comparison to MegaCham. CelticPride has already voiced that the comparison of MegaCham to Rampardos is ridiculous, but it's about the same with Tyrantrum. Gary2346 has already voiced that there are enough flaws that prevent Tyrantrum from being an effective Wallbreaker, hoping that he wouldn't have to list them (which I have to, it seems). As I've said before, Kyurem-B is the only true comparison we have, but even it goes down because of its typing giving it switch-in difficulty, a Stealth Rock weakness, and reliance on Roost in order to stay relatively healthy (not to mention its Speed is lower than MegaCham's). However, if this is not enough to debunk the Tyrantrum Argument, allow me to respond to this:
Ferrothorn (and punishing it if it uses Head Smash or Outrage); since Superpower is a rare use move like on Scizor, it normally doesn't have to worry.
Hippowdon can Slack Off stall when Outraged or 2HKO with a 0EV Earthquake.
Mega Aggron laughs at it pretty hardcore.
That's roughly three Pokemon in comparison to MegaCham's 4, which is as comparable to the power output.
Tyrantrum may have similar power output and a lack of true switch-ins, but there are two areas where Tyrantrum fails that, while I've brought both up before, need a repeat.
Tyrantrum has six easily exploitable weaknesses in comparison to MegaCham's 3. If you honestly think MegaCham has difficulty switching in, Tyrantrum is even worse. As mentioned before, it cannot even take hits on the Special Side.
Tyrantrum is left outsped by multiple Pokemon, making outspeeding and Revenge Killing even less of an issue than with MegaCham. Mega Medicham requires Pokemon with Choice Scarf or those that are naturally faster, either one. There are plenty, sure, but it's much more selective than Tyrantrum, which is outsped by far too many Pokemon to count; Jolly Dragonite, for instance, laughs at Tyrantrum's attempt to outspeed it, even before Dragon Dancing, something that even MegaCham doesn't have to worry about.
These two problems above are enough to show that, while Tyrantrum is a boss thanks to its power and coverage, its speed and typing let it down far too much for it to be effective in this metagame. Thus, MegaCham still remains the best Wallbreaker of the tier.
I beg to differ. If you look at Gen 5's Viability Thread, Kyurem-B is on the list at A+ and it's been known as a wallbreaker since its release, also boasting the fact that didn't have many switch ins as well. So...if MegaCham going up to A+ solely because it's a wallbreaker is bullbae, you must surely think Kyurem-B's placement in Gen 5 was the same.
Stop me from correcting you, but Hoopa-U is in a league above MegaCham. MegaCham may be a One-Trick Pony, but it has one set it can take the most advantage of. Hoopa-U wasn't solely a wallbreaker, as it had multiple sets to work off of, meaning countering it was made even more difficult to the point that some considered it without one. The two Pokemon are very different in how they run, meaning their comparisons are more like a lack thereof, only proving that you have no true arguments to begin with and just want to hate on a bandwagon solely because it's a bandwagon and nothing more, taking in nothing about the why of it and just working off emotion. I suppose Feels > Reals is the tl;dr of this paragraph.
I'm going to end this post with a very insightful line: Quit comparing Mega Medicham to Rampardos and Tyrantrum. It's ignorant. Please come up with actual arguments that Mega Medicham does not deserve an A+ ranking, since barely any decent arguments actually exist.
p2
Banned deucer.
why the fuck is this thread still talking about rampardos and tyrantrum despite celtic literally saying not to
stop making these stupid comparisons and look at the single mon in the metagame and the competition in a+ instead.
it's competition mega-wise are both very strong offensive mons in the tier while also being able to provide a solid degree of defensive synergy - sciz has a great typing, bulk, and roost, diancie has magic bounce and rock typing which checks big threats like birds.
mega medicham has none of this, but it completely blows the other 2 out of the water when it comes to being an offensive mon so it boils down to this question
i am leaning towards a+ fwiw, the one trick pony argument can also be applied to rotom-w because it's also ranked for 1 single set
stop making these stupid comparisons and look at the single mon in the metagame and the competition in a+ instead.
it's competition mega-wise are both very strong offensive mons in the tier while also being able to provide a solid degree of defensive synergy - sciz has a great typing, bulk, and roost, diancie has magic bounce and rock typing which checks big threats like birds.
mega medicham has none of this, but it completely blows the other 2 out of the water when it comes to being an offensive mon so it boils down to this question
- does megachams offensive presence and ability to apply instant pressure to a huge amount of teams, despite a lack of any sort of defensive synergy, make it a strong enough presence in the metagame where it should be a+?
i am leaning towards a+ fwiw, the one trick pony argument can also be applied to rotom-w because it's also ranked for 1 single set
Mega Medicham discussion is over, until VR team comes to a decision. Carry on.
Current Discussion Points:
Amoonguss B+ -> A-
Volcanion A -> A-
Suicune B+ -> A-
Mega Gardevoir A- -> B+
Also there's a bunch of high level replays from WCOP so talk about trends from those if you want.
Current Discussion Points:
Amoonguss B+ -> A-
Volcanion A -> A-
Suicune B+ -> A-
Mega Gardevoir A- -> B+
Also there's a bunch of high level replays from WCOP so talk about trends from those if you want.
I'm probably repeating myself from my previous post, but there is no strong arguments to make Mega Gardevoir drops to B+. "its checks/counters are SO common now!!!" was the reason it dropped from A to A- already which was like 1-2.5 months ago or somewhere around that. That and repeating "it's slow and physically frail", which everyone already know, doesn't convinces me much either. Not only a good amount of fast physical attackers struggles to switch into Hyper Voice, but Garde can Burn them if she run Will-O-Wisp. I can't say much more things that isn't just repeating my previous post in page 21, Mega Gardevoir is perfectly fine in A- for now.
Guy above summed up thoughts about Garde quite well, it can easily apply pressure to steel-types that try to switch-in between Focus Blast and Wisp, and being able to bait in and cripple mons like Scizor and Ferro can be huge. Stay in A-.
Volc can drop. It's only real good set is Specs IMO (Scarf is too slow, Defensive is a waste of Volc's potential IMO, AV misses out on power and LO compounds on its proneness to being worn down) and it's too easily worn down by hazards. Not to mention it struggles to break past water types without Specs HP Ice and Mega Latias is popular rn which is another big fuck you to it. Drop to A-.
Cune can rise. A lot of teams are underprepared for it and those that have checks like Ferro can be easily pressured by Scald burns. Not to mention it can win CM wars thanks to phazing via Roar. Rise to A-.
I feel like I've beaten this nom for a while now but Amoonguss should most certainly rise. It's a great pivot that is easily splashable outside of stall teams and brings a lot to the table as it can swtich-in and generally beat a lot of powerful mons (Keldeo, Diancie, Breloom, Azu, etc.) Rise to A-.
OK so I feel this should be taken into consideration moreso if Amoonguss doesn't rise to A- but it's still a valid nom to bring up: Mega Venusaur to B. Currently, all three bulky grass types are in the same tier, B+, and if Amoonguss rises, it'll just be Tang and Venu. It's not rocket science to figure out why this is stupid; the entire reason that Amoonguss and Tang are so viable rn is because of Venu's drop in viability, and making it seem like Venu's just as good or only slightly worse than its competitors is egregious considering how huge their differences are. I get that Venu has considerably more offensive presence than the others and has an ability that nullifies two of its weaknesses but it's worn down so easily by hazards and Sand and easily stalled out of Synthesises that it's usually not worth considering unless you have the mega slot open. Not to mention it just doesn't fit alongside nukes like Kyurem and staple mons like Chansey. It's more on par with something like Breloom in that it's very match-up based (whether or not your opponent is running Sand or just a TTar in general) and is as likely to be successful in a match as it is to fall flat on its face (or at they very least not be able to do its job effectively). Drop to B.
Volc can drop. It's only real good set is Specs IMO (Scarf is too slow, Defensive is a waste of Volc's potential IMO, AV misses out on power and LO compounds on its proneness to being worn down) and it's too easily worn down by hazards. Not to mention it struggles to break past water types without Specs HP Ice and Mega Latias is popular rn which is another big fuck you to it. Drop to A-.
Cune can rise. A lot of teams are underprepared for it and those that have checks like Ferro can be easily pressured by Scald burns. Not to mention it can win CM wars thanks to phazing via Roar. Rise to A-.
I feel like I've beaten this nom for a while now but Amoonguss should most certainly rise. It's a great pivot that is easily splashable outside of stall teams and brings a lot to the table as it can swtich-in and generally beat a lot of powerful mons (Keldeo, Diancie, Breloom, Azu, etc.) Rise to A-.
OK so I feel this should be taken into consideration moreso if Amoonguss doesn't rise to A- but it's still a valid nom to bring up: Mega Venusaur to B. Currently, all three bulky grass types are in the same tier, B+, and if Amoonguss rises, it'll just be Tang and Venu. It's not rocket science to figure out why this is stupid; the entire reason that Amoonguss and Tang are so viable rn is because of Venu's drop in viability, and making it seem like Venu's just as good or only slightly worse than its competitors is egregious considering how huge their differences are. I get that Venu has considerably more offensive presence than the others and has an ability that nullifies two of its weaknesses but it's worn down so easily by hazards and Sand and easily stalled out of Synthesises that it's usually not worth considering unless you have the mega slot open. Not to mention it just doesn't fit alongside nukes like Kyurem and staple mons like Chansey. It's more on par with something like Breloom in that it's very match-up based (whether or not your opponent is running Sand or just a TTar in general) and is as likely to be successful in a match as it is to fall flat on its face (or at they very least not be able to do its job effectively). Drop to B.
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I do agree with this, some pokemon drops and then people talk about its downsides again and want to drop even further, B+ is too low for garde imo, the arguments you use could even be used to drop garde from A+ to A, Gabidou99's posts explain that pretty well, i often struggle with garde and i can see her being a threat to several teams due to few switch-ins, Hyper voice hits really really hard and the coverage moves are pretty great too, i particullary like WoW since people use Mega Scizor to check Gardevoir and that renders it useless but the poke is still versatile enough, can run taunt, calm mind or even thunderbolt, it just feels weird to see a threatening pokemon such as Gardevoir not on the A ranks so i'd say that it's perfectly fine in A-.
Mega Gardevoir --> B+: Agree lean
I think with Gardevoir it's less that it's gotten quote-on-quote "worse" and more that it's just much harder to justify it's use over Mega Diancie now than it was a few months ago. Like, Mega Diancie is just so insanely good atm for so many reasons and, while they don't do the exact same thing, if I need an offensive Fairy-type I will almost always go for Diancie because it's just much better suited to the current meta between how insanely good Rock is atm combined with it being able to check a lot of stuff which generally gives offense a headache--allowing it to have defensive synergy which Gardevoir simply lacks. It's not splashable, it's hard to justify and I can't honestly say that it is better than something like Amoonguss, which is far easier to justify on teams for a number of reasons that I shouldn't need to go into depth with. I think that it is very easy to compare with Gengar in that it is a v. powerful special attacker which isn't particularly easy to justfiy due to metagame trends making other Pokémon more favorable, and I think that it should be ranked as such.
I think with Gardevoir it's less that it's gotten quote-on-quote "worse" and more that it's just much harder to justify it's use over Mega Diancie now than it was a few months ago. Like, Mega Diancie is just so insanely good atm for so many reasons and, while they don't do the exact same thing, if I need an offensive Fairy-type I will almost always go for Diancie because it's just much better suited to the current meta between how insanely good Rock is atm combined with it being able to check a lot of stuff which generally gives offense a headache--allowing it to have defensive synergy which Gardevoir simply lacks. It's not splashable, it's hard to justify and I can't honestly say that it is better than something like Amoonguss, which is far easier to justify on teams for a number of reasons that I shouldn't need to go into depth with. I think that it is very easy to compare with Gengar in that it is a v. powerful special attacker which isn't particularly easy to justfiy due to metagame trends making other Pokémon more favorable, and I think that it should be ranked as such.
I always see people say things similar to "there is barely any reasons to use Garde over diancie". Yes, Diancie is better offensively and Rock typing is great, but let's be fair, Mega Garde has its own share of strengths compared to Mega Diancie too. Immediate power, better special bulk, Taunt, better speed pre-mega, I could go on a bit. They are also different: Diancie is more of an offensive attacker, while Gardevoir is more of a hole-puncher that can handles defensive mons better. Speaking about differences between mons, Garde and Amoongus are completely different and I don't know why you are comparing them. Don't get me wrong, Diancie IS more adapted and in general is more powerful than pretty much any fairies in the meta not named Clefable, but Gardevoir has enough strengths to stay in A- for the moment for me.
Rotom-H up to C
A Clefable counter that actually resists Moonblast, Flamethrower, and is immune to T-Wave?
Not just that either. Unlike Rotom-W it can reliably beat Mega Scizor, Thundurus, and ZardY. Unlike Heatran it's immune to T-Wave, spread T-Wave itself, and recover without Leftovers (Pain Split). I'm also not going to stop mentioning Tangrowth because that has been rising too. Rotom-H has these niches that make it good enough for C IMO, it's crippled by SR and Sand, but most of the rest of C- is worse and Rotom-H has more notable niches than them. Still not very good in OU but decent bulk, immunity to both paralysis AND burns, and being able to beat some common threats reliably, I can't see it being in the same rank as some of the other trash in C-.
Oh and it can also hit Water types with a super effective VR and pivot out
A Clefable counter that actually resists Moonblast, Flamethrower, and is immune to T-Wave?
Not just that either. Unlike Rotom-W it can reliably beat Mega Scizor, Thundurus, and ZardY. Unlike Heatran it's immune to T-Wave, spread T-Wave itself, and recover without Leftovers (Pain Split). I'm also not going to stop mentioning Tangrowth because that has been rising too. Rotom-H has these niches that make it good enough for C IMO, it's crippled by SR and Sand, but most of the rest of C- is worse and Rotom-H has more notable niches than them. Still not very good in OU but decent bulk, immunity to both paralysis AND burns, and being able to beat some common threats reliably, I can't see it being in the same rank as some of the other trash in C-.
Oh and it can also hit Water types with a super effective VR and pivot out
So I just checked the thread quick and most of the stuff were pretty agreeable or at least understandable. But then I saw that Zapdos was at C+ and tbh I really don't see Zapdos as a C+ mon.
I'm nominating Zapdos from C+ ---> B-
Zapdos has a lot going for it. Solid recovery in Roost, two very good abilities in Pressure and Static, and finally, a really good movepool consisting of support moves such as Defog and Toxic, electric STAB that provides some sort of utility such as Discharge and Volt Switch, or even coverage moves such as Heat Wave. Not only that, it has a good base speed and much better defenses. But most of all, an AMAZING typing defensively.
Physically Defensive Zapdos is hands down the best check to flying spam especially Mega Pinsir, a pokemon really threatening in the metagame. It checks bird spam the best because it checks every single variant of Talonflame because of the combination of it's ability to 2HKO regardless of burn, and a resistance to its most spammed move. It checks Mega Pinsir because no move can OHKO Phys. Def Zapdos at +2 even after rocks. Heck, it even checks one of the most annoying mons to check, LO Tornadus-T, without even the need of investing in SpD. It's also a really nice check to most Steel types in the metagame bar Ice Punch Mega Metagross. Every single variant of Mega Scizor (except maybe offensive knock off?) is hard countered by this. Jirachi will always lose, Magnezone will never 2HKO even if Specs (Because T-bolt is resisted on the Roosting turn), and finally, even Bisharp cannot beat this 1v1. It also really provides a solid check to a plethora of physically offensive Pokemon in the tier thanks to its typing and massive bulk, including Mega Lopunny, Breloom, Mega Gyarados, and weakened Azumarill. But it doesn't stop here because even without SpD investment it can check some specially offensive pokemon such as Serperior and Togekiss.
Specially Defensive, though not as good as Physically Defensive, is pretty good because it can still be a check to flying spam but at the same time check specially offensive Pokemon much better. Serperior, Togekiss, Gengar, Raikou (not SubCM), Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, and Scarf Keldeo are all checked or sometimes countered without rocks by SpD Zapdoss.
The best Zapdos set is arguably physically defensive with Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, Heat Wave, Roost, Toxic/Defog (Toxic w/ Static and Defog w/ Pressure). Thunderbolt is nice to deal out more damage to stuff like Slowbro, Rotom-W, Heatran, and Azumarill while Volt Switch is very nice to give the team a little of momentum. Heat Wave is almost necessary to hit Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Excadrill, Magnezone, Klefki, and Jirachi a lot harder than T-bolt. Toxic is a very nice move on Zapdos cuz it can allow the team to weaken annoying stuff such as TankChomp, Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Rotom-W, Slowbro, Raikou, Quagsire, Tyranitar, Lati@s (on the switch), and even opposing Zapdos's. On the other hand, Defog can be nice for certain teams that are weak to hazards and Zapdos, although weak to rocks, is a definitely a decent Defog user on defensive builds. Static is EXTREMELY nice as it can punish many physical attackers with a 30% para, while on the other hand Pressure (usually forced because of Defog) is also extremely useful but only on bulkier builds because it can really help outstall the opponent. Other options can include making Zapdos Specially defensive, running enough Speed to outspeed Bisharp and Breloom, running Discharge to spread more paras, or running HP Ice as an additional coverave move instead of running Toxic to hit and weaken annoying mons such as Lando-T and Garchomp.
Now obviously, Zapdos does have a lot of flaws mainly being weak to rocks which hinders what it does pretty hard. Not running Volt Switch can also suck a bit of momentum on BO or balanced builds that appreciate momentum. However, this is exactly why Zapdos doesn't deserve a spot in A rank or B+. Instead, I think it should be somewhere between B- and B but for now let's go for B-.
Finally, I want to show that more and more successful builds are featuring Zapdos in the current meta because of its good defensive utility and what it provides to the the team.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hadou-90-one-stroke-cremation-weavile-stall-peak-1.3576930/ - Pressure Zapdos is finding its way to Stall because while it may not be as effective of a Defogger as Skarmory, it is certainly a nice asset to stall because it provides an extremely reliable check to bird spam including Mega Pinsir, Taunt Talonflame, and LO Tornadus-T as they all annoy Stall a lot and can even 6-0 if played right. Pressure is also very useful because it helps the team's matchup tremendously vs. opposing Stall and super bulky buids because Pressure Zapdos + Mega Sableye can really outstall most of stall teams. While on Stall, this Zapdos runs 108 Speed because it gives the team a better matchup vs. Bisharp and Breloom (especially because the team is lacking both Skarmory and Amoonguss)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/btbs-mega-heracross-offense-peaked-1-at-2022.3576987/ - A pretty recent successful team that uses Mega Heracross but also runs Zapdos to check various stops to Mega Heracross. It provides Volt Switch to gain momentum easily for Mega Heracross and can even spread Toxic to Hera's soft checks or annoyances such as Landorus-T. Static is also nice to spread lucky paras.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rip-meme-team-peak-1-at-2008.3572142/ - A really successful team back in May which is still spammed now on the ladder mainly because it's still effective. Just like the previous team Zapdos provides a lot of utility through Volt Switch, Toxic, and possible paras with Static (hey, it's as high as Scald).
I'm nominating Zapdos from C+ ---> B-
Zapdos has a lot going for it. Solid recovery in Roost, two very good abilities in Pressure and Static, and finally, a really good movepool consisting of support moves such as Defog and Toxic, electric STAB that provides some sort of utility such as Discharge and Volt Switch, or even coverage moves such as Heat Wave. Not only that, it has a good base speed and much better defenses. But most of all, an AMAZING typing defensively.
Physically Defensive Zapdos is hands down the best check to flying spam especially Mega Pinsir, a pokemon really threatening in the metagame. It checks bird spam the best because it checks every single variant of Talonflame because of the combination of it's ability to 2HKO regardless of burn, and a resistance to its most spammed move. It checks Mega Pinsir because no move can OHKO Phys. Def Zapdos at +2 even after rocks. Heck, it even checks one of the most annoying mons to check, LO Tornadus-T, without even the need of investing in SpD. It's also a really nice check to most Steel types in the metagame bar Ice Punch Mega Metagross. Every single variant of Mega Scizor (except maybe offensive knock off?) is hard countered by this. Jirachi will always lose, Magnezone will never 2HKO even if Specs (Because T-bolt is resisted on the Roosting turn), and finally, even Bisharp cannot beat this 1v1. It also really provides a solid check to a plethora of physically offensive Pokemon in the tier thanks to its typing and massive bulk, including Mega Lopunny, Breloom, Mega Gyarados, and weakened Azumarill. But it doesn't stop here because even without SpD investment it can check some specially offensive pokemon such as Serperior and Togekiss.
Specially Defensive, though not as good as Physically Defensive, is pretty good because it can still be a check to flying spam but at the same time check specially offensive Pokemon much better. Serperior, Togekiss, Gengar, Raikou (not SubCM), Mega Manectric, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, and Scarf Keldeo are all checked or sometimes countered without rocks by SpD Zapdoss.
The best Zapdos set is arguably physically defensive with Thunderbolt/Volt Switch, Heat Wave, Roost, Toxic/Defog (Toxic w/ Static and Defog w/ Pressure). Thunderbolt is nice to deal out more damage to stuff like Slowbro, Rotom-W, Heatran, and Azumarill while Volt Switch is very nice to give the team a little of momentum. Heat Wave is almost necessary to hit Ferrothorn, Bisharp, Excadrill, Magnezone, Klefki, and Jirachi a lot harder than T-bolt. Toxic is a very nice move on Zapdos cuz it can allow the team to weaken annoying stuff such as TankChomp, Landorus-T, Hippowdon, Rotom-W, Slowbro, Raikou, Quagsire, Tyranitar, Lati@s (on the switch), and even opposing Zapdos's. On the other hand, Defog can be nice for certain teams that are weak to hazards and Zapdos, although weak to rocks, is a definitely a decent Defog user on defensive builds. Static is EXTREMELY nice as it can punish many physical attackers with a 30% para, while on the other hand Pressure (usually forced because of Defog) is also extremely useful but only on bulkier builds because it can really help outstall the opponent. Other options can include making Zapdos Specially defensive, running enough Speed to outspeed Bisharp and Breloom, running Discharge to spread more paras, or running HP Ice as an additional coverave move instead of running Toxic to hit and weaken annoying mons such as Lando-T and Garchomp.
Now obviously, Zapdos does have a lot of flaws mainly being weak to rocks which hinders what it does pretty hard. Not running Volt Switch can also suck a bit of momentum on BO or balanced builds that appreciate momentum. However, this is exactly why Zapdos doesn't deserve a spot in A rank or B+. Instead, I think it should be somewhere between B- and B but for now let's go for B-.
Finally, I want to show that more and more successful builds are featuring Zapdos in the current meta because of its good defensive utility and what it provides to the the team.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/hadou-90-one-stroke-cremation-weavile-stall-peak-1.3576930/ - Pressure Zapdos is finding its way to Stall because while it may not be as effective of a Defogger as Skarmory, it is certainly a nice asset to stall because it provides an extremely reliable check to bird spam including Mega Pinsir, Taunt Talonflame, and LO Tornadus-T as they all annoy Stall a lot and can even 6-0 if played right. Pressure is also very useful because it helps the team's matchup tremendously vs. opposing Stall and super bulky buids because Pressure Zapdos + Mega Sableye can really outstall most of stall teams. While on Stall, this Zapdos runs 108 Speed because it gives the team a better matchup vs. Bisharp and Breloom (especially because the team is lacking both Skarmory and Amoonguss)
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/btbs-mega-heracross-offense-peaked-1-at-2022.3576987/ - A pretty recent successful team that uses Mega Heracross but also runs Zapdos to check various stops to Mega Heracross. It provides Volt Switch to gain momentum easily for Mega Heracross and can even spread Toxic to Hera's soft checks or annoyances such as Landorus-T. Static is also nice to spread lucky paras.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rip-meme-team-peak-1-at-2008.3572142/ - A really successful team back in May which is still spammed now on the ladder mainly because it's still effective. Just like the previous team Zapdos provides a lot of utility through Volt Switch, Toxic, and possible paras with Static (hey, it's as high as Scald).
Tangrowth has every right to be on this slate, as its performance in World Cup has been nothing short of stellar. This replay showcases exactly why you want one on your team. It eats every special attack and doesn't care, steadily wears down the enemy team, and gets key Knock Offs that allow its offensive teammates to exert more pressure on their checks.
Looking at this game, you'll see Tangrowth doesn't do much, as it appears to be Assault Vest with Def. investment and nothing to hit Talonflame, but it's a completely different game with full Phys Def. and Rocky Helm. Opening with Sleep Powder would have punished Talonflame immediately, whereafter a combination of Torn-T's pressure and Tangrowth's full-on blockade against Lop could have resulted in a sound victory.
TBH, Tangrowth is one of the few defensive 'mons in the meta that is actively getting better instead of worse. It reminds me a bit of XY Venusaur.
Looking at this game, you'll see Tangrowth doesn't do much, as it appears to be Assault Vest with Def. investment and nothing to hit Talonflame, but it's a completely different game with full Phys Def. and Rocky Helm. Opening with Sleep Powder would have punished Talonflame immediately, whereafter a combination of Torn-T's pressure and Tangrowth's full-on blockade against Lop could have resulted in a sound victory.
TBH, Tangrowth is one of the few defensive 'mons in the meta that is actively getting better instead of worse. It reminds me a bit of XY Venusaur.
I'm not comparing Amoonguss to Gardevoir so much as saying that I don't personally believe that Mega Gardevoir is better than it in the meta's current state, which is what the current rankings imply. And I acknowledge that it has positive traits which warrant it's usage over Diancie. However, I when the meta is like it is right now it is just really hard to credit those traits over Diancie when building considering that Gardevoir's frailty, lower post-mega speed and lack of defensive utility relative to Diancie courtesy of the typing+lack of Magic Bounce.
I actually kinda like to compare Mega Gardevoir to Mega Charizard Y and Mega Medicham in lots of aspects, because they are all extremely powerful mega attackers which sit on the 100 speed tier. Mega Charizard Y is 4x weak to Stealth Rock and like Mega Gardevoir it isn't particularly splashable, with Zard Y builds being pretty formulaic for the most part, but this is made up for by the fact that it has really good defensive utility due to it's typing, allowing it to check or counter a lot of things that give the types of builds it works on a headache. In addition, it pairs incredibly well with a lot of common and notably good Pokémon (formulaically pairing with Tyranitar, Keldeo, Latios and Excadrill in the classic Zard Y sand build and also pairing well with things like Lando-T who also fit well onto it's builds) while providing a soft check to opposing sand builds between Drought and Focus Blast, allowing for it to just generally thrive in a metagame such as the current one. Conversely, Mega Medicham lacks defensive utility but makes up for it between it's access to priority to circumvent it's irritatingly-low speed tier/lack of bulk and is near-unwallabe with it's BoltBeam set alongside it being extremely splashable on offensive and balanced-offensive builds. The other thing to consider is that the competition that both Medicham and Charizard face for a teamslot is lower due to either their advantages over the competion being favorable in the current meta conditions (Mega Medicham) or due to them filling a role which doesn't have much competition within similar typings (Mega Charizard Y). On the other hand, Mega Gardevoir lacks priority to make up for its frailty+speed tier, has a number of mostly-ironclad switch-ins which make it easy to check relative to Zard and Medi (it can't touch SpD Skarm, for instance), it struggles with a number of current meta trends (Mega Scizor is everywhere etc.)I
I don't disagree with you about it having reasons for use over diancie, but it is simply that they are not as easy to justify nowadays as they were in the past which is why I bring it up. Also the amoonguss comparison was not so much a direct comparison so much as me saying that it is not better than Amoonguss is in my opinion and that putting it above Amoonguss isn't representative of it in the current meta. If you want another comparison then I will compare it to charizard y who is better atm but shares its rank iirc (not gonna double check because I am on my phone) and does not face competition within the same type like Gardevoir does and also happening to pair formulaically with a number of extremely good pokemon in the current meta (Tar and Exca and Lati and Keld and Tang and Amoonguss and Lando etc) while not losing to Scizor and soft checking sand due to Drought and Focus Blast in conjunction while not mandating Mag support like Gardevoir does. I apologize if this post is a bit all over the place as mobile sucks ass but I hope I got my point across to some degree
Zapdos could use a jump to B-, Slowking maybe B+, Tang could probably rise and I'd raise Tangrowth before I raise Amoonguss personally who I still haven't really quite seen what merits the rise. I think it's also time to consider dropping Azumarill in tandem with the Tangrowth rise and just the handful of problems it kind of has. Its presence as a centralizing force gets a little too much credit when its best set to me the belly drum set is kind of already difficult to actually set up in the first place. Togekiss in the same rank as good stuff such as Volcarona, Gastrodon, Reuniclus, Gyarados, and Dragonite also leaves me scratching my head so I personally think it should drop. Swampert Mega is dung, M-TTar is better than M-Pidgeot so a rise to C+, Kyurem regular needs a rise anywhere but where it's at now. Whimscott, Tyrantrum (this one is questionable to just glancing at previous discussion of shitty comparisons but rather not spark a shitfest), regular Sableye, Shedinja, Bronzong, Rhyperior, Sylveon and Blissey are the only viable mons in D rank. Cresselia being in D is kind of questionable since it sort of just sits there and Defensive Mew is a lot better while being a bit more customizable and viable.
The discussion points have gotten really dry / ran its course and its mostly just the same old so there's some stuff to think about. Cobalion should be B- also.
Edit: Yeah also this below.
The discussion points have gotten really dry / ran its course and its mostly just the same old so there's some stuff to think about. Cobalion should be B- also.
Edit: Yeah also this below.
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Erm, I didn't really understand what you are saying by this.
1) Solid Enough Stall Mu
- I don't know what this means, sorry.
2) Unpredictability and Variance in Sets
- Are you referring to the Nasty Plot set and the Swords Dance set? Sure, Nasty Plot is more difficult to wall but without Extreme Speed, isn't it much easier to get revenged after killing 1 mon?
p2 means solid match up with stall, which it really does have. The variance in sets being referred to is, I'm assuming, the free final slot Luke always has with SD. Ice Punch/Crunch/Iron Tail/possibly BP if you hate Gar etc. In my opinion, no matter the team, everything that isn't Iron Tail in Luke's last slot feels subpar. I always want that considering the ubiquity of relevant targets in the meta atm, and considering the way that Iron Tail really opens up Luke's stall matchup. Luke should always be paired with Mons that wear down shit like Lando/Chomp/Bro/etc, and be wearing them down for said Mon also, so idk if you really miss out on much by not running Ice Punch/Crunch.
But yeah Luke's solid, deserves a bump.
But yeah Luke's solid, deserves a bump.
I'm a big fan of tangrowth ever since I used it physically bulky, It has a very nice high win rate in wcop for round 1 with a 62.5% win rate, walls lots of common pokemon from landorus-t, mega lopunny, jirachi, excadrill, etc. lovely movepool to wear down opposing mons from knock off and sleep powder and tangrowth just heals itself by just switching out which is always lovely, if amoonguss is getting a rise I would also like to see tangrowth get a rise to A- as well and if amoonguss stays B+ I would still consider moving Tangrowth up to A- rank.
I also agree with lucario rising up a rank as well since the metagame is starting to trend with more dark types running about it makes it easier for lucario to shine and set up easier, pokemon like heatran and clefable are getting more popular than ever and luke can OHKO both mons without set up which is very handy, its a pokemon that can act like a revenge killer, sweeper and a wallbreaker in one little package with a versatile moveset which I belive it merits a B- rank.
I also agree with lucario rising up a rank as well since the metagame is starting to trend with more dark types running about it makes it easier for lucario to shine and set up easier, pokemon like heatran and clefable are getting more popular than ever and luke can OHKO both mons without set up which is very handy, its a pokemon that can act like a revenge killer, sweeper and a wallbreaker in one little package with a versatile moveset which I belive it merits a B- rank.
Mega Medicham and Zard have more positive traits than Gardevoir and is why are ranked higher, yes. But the topic is comparing Diancie and Garde. To make it simple: Diancie is easier to justify using than Garde but not this much to the point of being enough to dropping Garde again. We already talked about the topic of unfavorable meta trends which was the reason it dropped from A to A- 1-2.5 months ago. For stuff like Mega Scizor, Mega Gardevoir can run things such as Hidden Power Fire or Will-O-Wisp. For Ferrothorn, Hidden Power Fire or Focus Blast. For Weavile, Bisharp, Offensive Garchomp, mega-evolved Lopunny and etc all struggles to switch into Hyper Voice. I could go go. Mega Garde has tools to cripple mons that normally beat her or they just struggles to switch in, and it's one of the thing that make her good. To be fair I'm pretty sure almost every or all relevant Pokemon in OU can pair well with other high-tier OU Pokemon, not just Zard Y. Speaking about Amoongus, it's likely going to rise to A- soon, so yeah.
Welp I missed the Amoonguss thing on the list mb. If it moves up then I think there's a case for it staying (although being in the same rank as Zard Y is still a bit bleh at least IMO) but if Amoonguss were to stay I don't think that it being A- would be particularly representative of it's overall viability. That's all I'll say because at the end of the day it does hit stupidly hard with it just not being an easily-justified pick a lot of the time. I also don't particularly like it being ranked higher than Latias as I've been using it a lot recently and it's actually really nice provided that awful Roostless build isn't used while also being splashable AF given just how customisable it is between mono attacker vs. 2-attacks and the amount of variety it has for EV spreads, but may just be where the rankings' subjectivity comes into play so I won't particularly push for it.
Anyway just saying that I support a Tangrowth rise simply because it is so good atm. Other people have basically covered it so I won't start repeating them but yeah in a meta which is dominated by physical attackers and Ground-types it is just really good in general.
Anyway just saying that I support a Tangrowth rise simply because it is so good atm. Other people have basically covered it so I won't start repeating them but yeah in a meta which is dominated by physical attackers and Ground-types it is just really good in general.
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Also, what do you guys think of Magneton at C-?
Magnezone is currently in B+ and it's probably fit in that spot. However Magneton at C- is somewhat of a stretch as yes while Magnezone does outclass Magneton generally it doesn't outclass it COMPLETELY to the point that it's 1 full rank and a half above it.
Personally, I think Magneton should rise to at least C+ or potentially B-. While Magnezone does have the Specs set and the Air Balloon set that both outclass Magneton's, the Air Balloon set is almost extinct and like 7/10 times Scarf is better on most teams than specs. On the other hand, Scarf Magneton is sometimes a lot better than Magnezone on a lot of Balanced/BO team. The main reason is that Scarf Magneton can outspeed very crucial mons that Scarf Magnezone can't outspeed, mainly Starmie, Tornadus-T, Alakazam, and Weavile. Weavile is as good as ever and having Scarf Magnezone over Scarf Magneton can really make your team much weaker to Weavile. I've literally seen many Balanced/BO teams where their speed control is Scarf Magnezone and Weavile LITERALLY 6-0s. Having Magneton over Magnezone at least gives you a chance to somehow outplaying your opponent.
The extra bulk on Magnezone is really nice to better check Mega Pinsir and bulky/Adamant Talonflame. However, both Jolly Talonflame (albeit rare) and Tornadus-T outspeed and destroy Magnezone which makes Magnezone really not the best bird spam check. Magneton on the other hand has the extra speed to check even max speed jolly Talonflame and Tornadus-T making it a decent check. However, the significant decrease in bulk doesn't make it the most consistent. Despite all of that Scarf Magneton generally does what Scarf Magnezone does but a little better, though the existence and viability of Specs Magnezone makes Magnezone overall better, but not by a lot. That's why, I think Magneton should at least go from C- --> C+
Magnezone is currently in B+ and it's probably fit in that spot. However Magneton at C- is somewhat of a stretch as yes while Magnezone does outclass Magneton generally it doesn't outclass it COMPLETELY to the point that it's 1 full rank and a half above it.
Personally, I think Magneton should rise to at least C+ or potentially B-. While Magnezone does have the Specs set and the Air Balloon set that both outclass Magneton's, the Air Balloon set is almost extinct and like 7/10 times Scarf is better on most teams than specs. On the other hand, Scarf Magneton is sometimes a lot better than Magnezone on a lot of Balanced/BO team. The main reason is that Scarf Magneton can outspeed very crucial mons that Scarf Magnezone can't outspeed, mainly Starmie, Tornadus-T, Alakazam, and Weavile. Weavile is as good as ever and having Scarf Magnezone over Scarf Magneton can really make your team much weaker to Weavile. I've literally seen many Balanced/BO teams where their speed control is Scarf Magnezone and Weavile LITERALLY 6-0s. Having Magneton over Magnezone at least gives you a chance to somehow outplaying your opponent.
The extra bulk on Magnezone is really nice to better check Mega Pinsir and bulky/Adamant Talonflame. However, both Jolly Talonflame (albeit rare) and Tornadus-T outspeed and destroy Magnezone which makes Magnezone really not the best bird spam check. Magneton on the other hand has the extra speed to check even max speed jolly Talonflame and Tornadus-T making it a decent check. However, the significant decrease in bulk doesn't make it the most consistent. Despite all of that Scarf Magneton generally does what Scarf Magnezone does but a little better, though the existence and viability of Specs Magnezone makes Magnezone overall better, but not by a lot. That's why, I think Magneton should at least go from C- --> C+