Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

AM

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I think magneton in general is pretty awful but I guess if people genuinely care it could be argued for C. Even then I dont think its positives are good enough to be compared amongst some of the other C mons there. Scarf magnezone is already bad to begin with and feel like if youre gonna use magnezone it can be utilized way better anyways. If you need magneton to beat tflame torn and weavile idk what to say.
 
I was thinking about Magneton's placement earlier, and decided not to post. You covered almost everything I wanted to say, though I'd still like to throw something into the mix. I think Scarf Magneton has far more merit these days compared to Scarf Magnezone, reducing Scarf Magnezone's merit significantly, if not to nil, really, and should always be ran in its place. Outspeeding Weavile (also, what're people's thoughts on this at A? It's fucking godly), Torn and the like is so bloody important that even if you don't need the extra speed on paper, you really do in practice. A rise shouldn't be out of the question for Magneton, in my opinion.
 
Mega Medicham discussion is over
Finally.

Now to look at the new discussion point I have the most interest in.

Amoonguss B+ -> A- Neutral, leaning disagree.

While no doubt one of the best pivots in the tier, I believe it suffers a touch to much from the same problems that plagued it before.

Amoonguss has a good typing for this tier, resisting Water, Electric, Grass, Fighting, and Fairy attacks, though at a cost at being weak to Fire, Ice, Flying, and Psychic, the former three being very much common. On one hand, Spore is a godsend, making even common switch-ins fear for their immediate safety. On the other hand, once Sleep Clause is around the corner, most Pokemon that threaten it don't fear anything; Talonflame, Heatran, Latios, Tornadus-Therian, any of the Charizard Megas, etc. Amoonguss also has some difficulty keeping in against powerful neutral attacks like Mega Lopunny's Return, which is an easy 3HKO, and without running Synthesis (because most people depend on Regenerator to heal and its movepool to keep threats down), forces Amoonguss out relatively easily. Despite all this, though, would it be right in place in A-? B+ has the other two Defensive Grass-Types of the tier, Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur, which do their own unique roles; Amoonguss is a pivot with the best status move in the game (tied with Dark Void, that is), Tangrowth is an Assault Vest attacker, and Mega Venusaur is a huge tank that can stall or attack in and of itself. How does Amoonguss hold up against the biggest threats in the tier? Does it hold up better or worse in the long run?

That, to which I say, no. Amoonguss, in my eyes, is absolutely outclassed by Mega Venusaur, bar not taking up a Mega slot. Though Amoonguss has Regenerator to heal itself, Mega Venusaur has Thick Fat, making Fire and Ice moves hit neutrally, giving it more switch-in capabilities. For example, Mega Charizard X will easily OHKO Amoonguss with Flare Blitz, but only 2HKO Mega Venusaur, just to give the difference in bulk and ability. For a Pokemon as slow as Amoonguss, it has to be able to take two hits in order to do something. Looking over at Hippowdon, it has enough bulk, the movepool, and even more reliable healing not hindered by Sandstorm. Another issue is that, like mentioned before, once Spore is used, Amoonguss is relatively easy to switch into. Offensive Mega Venusaur can actually be somewhat difficult to get into, with access to coverage moves like Earthquake to remove Heatran. Tangrowth is a bit of an unfair comparison, since they do very different jobs, so I'll leave it with "never used or liked Tangrowth enough to care, kind of like Altaria". More details later, though, for I've been in and out of the house for a week with barely any time to respond.

Professional2341 I've already posted why Magneton should not rise before if you want to use that for grounds of counterarguments.
 
Finally.

Now to look at the new discussion point I have the most interest in.

Amoonguss B+ -> A- Neutral, leaning disagree.

While no doubt one of the best pivots in the tier, I believe it suffers a touch to much from the same problems that plagued it before.

Amoonguss has a good typing for this tier, resisting Water, Electric, Grass, Fighting, and Fairy attacks, though at a cost at being weak to Fire, Ice, Flying, and Psychic, the former three being very much common. On one hand, Spore is a godsend, making even common switch-ins fear for their immediate safety. On the other hand, once Sleep Clause is around the corner, most Pokemon that threaten it don't fear anything; Talonflame, Heatran, Latios, Tornadus-Therian, any of the Charizard Megas, etc. Amoonguss also has some difficulty keeping in against powerful neutral attacks like Mega Lopunny's Return, which is an easy 3HKO, and without running Synthesis (because most people depend on Regenerator to heal and its movepool to keep threats down), forces Amoonguss out relatively easily. Despite all this, though, would it be right in place in A-? B+ has the other two Defensive Grass-Types of the tier, Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur, which do their own unique roles; Amoonguss is a pivot with the best status move in the game (tied with Dark Void, that is), Tangrowth is an Assault Vest attacker, and Mega Venusaur is a huge tank that can stall or attack in and of itself. How does Amoonguss hold up against the biggest threats in the tier? Does it hold up better or worse in the long run?

That, to which I say, no. Amoonguss, in my eyes, is absolutely outclassed by Mega Venusaur, bar not taking up a Mega slot. Though Amoonguss has Regenerator to heal itself, Mega Venusaur has Thick Fat, making Fire and Ice moves hit neutrally, giving it more switch-in capabilities. For example, Mega Charizard X will easily OHKO Amoonguss with Flare Blitz, but only 2HKO Mega Venusaur, just to give the difference in bulk and ability. For a Pokemon as slow as Amoonguss, it has to be able to take two hits in order to do something. Looking over at Hippowdon, it has enough bulk, the movepool, and even more reliable healing not hindered by Sandstorm. Another issue is that, like mentioned before, once Spore is used, Amoonguss is relatively easy to switch into. Offensive Mega Venusaur can actually be somewhat difficult to get into, with access to coverage moves like Earthquake to remove Heatran. Tangrowth is a bit of an unfair comparison, since they do very different jobs, so I'll leave it with "never used or liked Tangrowth enough to care, kind of like Altaria". More details later, though, for I've been in and out of the house for a week with barely any time to respond.

Professional2341 I've already posted why Magneton should not rise before if you want to use that for grounds of counterarguments.
I have not played OU in a while, but that argument does not mention at all Venusaur's extreme vulnerabilities to entry hazards due to lack of Leftovers, which is a major point on why Amoonguss is not completely outclassed by Mega Venusaur. If you want any credible comparison between Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur, you need to mention that point when comparing them.
 
Should Salamence be ranked now that it is banned from UU? If I'm not mistaken, all BL mons are required to be ranked due to only being usable in OU.

If it is ranked, I feel D or C- would probably be a good spot for it. Its specially based defog set, while lacking offensive utility when compared to Latios, has fairly good matchups vs most of the standard entry hazard setters and can soft check specific Pokemon like bulky SD Scizor, giving it enough of a niche to warrant one of those ranks.
 
I have not played OU in a while, but that argument does not mention at all Venusaur's extreme vulnerabilities to entry hazards due to lack of Leftovers, which is a major point on why Amoonguss is not completely outclassed by Mega Venusaur. If you want any credible comparison between Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur, you need to mention that point when comparing them.
And so it begins.

Both of them are assumed to check similar correct, right? Let's see how a similar situation would be with a switch in, switch out, and attack tank, in this case, Breloom will be the opposing Pokemon they are switching in. Both Pokemon will do the exact same/similar move and attempt to tank the exact same hit until critical moments happen. Assumptions are that Amoonguss holds Black Sludge and Stealth Rock is on the field.

Turn 1: Amoonguss switches in, taking Stealth Rock damage, leaving it at 378/431. It then tanks Mach Punch (which does just barely above Bullet Seed and 3 hits), which would leave Amoonguss anywhere between 296/431 and 309/431. At the end of the turn, Black Sludge heals for anywhere between 322/431 and 335/431.

Turn 2: Amoonguss uses Sludge Bomb when Breloom switches out for, let's use, Heatran. Nothing happens and Black Sludge heals for anywhere between 348/431 and 361/431.


Turn 1: Megasaur switches in, taking Stealth Rock damage, leaving it at 318/363. It then tanks Mach Punch, which would leave it anywhere between 265/363 and 274/363.

Turn 2: Megasaur uses Sludge Bomb when Breloom switches out for Heatran. No damage.


Clearly, in a regular 1v1 situation, Amoonguss would switch out and heal itself, bringing in a better check to Heatran. On the other hand, things could be different.

Mega Venusaur, as mentioned before, has the ability to run coverage moves Amoonguss cannot; Earthquake would be the Heatran deterrent in this case. If both were Defensive, though, Heatran would likely go for a Taunt to prevent Spore and Leech Seed, respectively. It's obvious that Amoonguss has more switchability, but it doesn't have the same staying power; Mega Venusaur still has the ability to be offensive, taking Pokemon like Magnezone out without worry thanks to Earthquake. Amoonguss has less staying power, but easily healed without a healing move. Even then, Defensive Mega Venusaur can make up for this by running Synthesis, which allows it to stay in against foes that would otherwise break it.

This is the critical moment I was talking about. Amoonguss would likely switch out and go back to full health, dealing a whole 9.9% of Life Orb Recoil damage to Breloom. Megasaur can stay in and Earthquake Heatran, which is a 2HKO. It is also critical with other switch ins. If Stealth Rock is up on the other side, Talonflame would still survive the SR + Sludge Bomb attack from Amoonguss--barely, but still. On the other hand, it cannot survive SR + Sludge Bomb from Megasaur.

I think THIS is what many people see in staying power:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 55-64 (15.3 - 17.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 168 Def Amoonguss: 69-82 (16 - 19%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

I see more of this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 168 Def Amoonguss: 144-171 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 94-111 (25.8 - 30.5%) -- 15.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Or this (both below are the most powerful options):

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Amoonguss: 176-208 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mega Venusaur: 102-120 (28 - 33%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Or this:

32 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 168 Def Amoonguss: 180-213 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
32 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 118-139 (32.5 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Or any calculation in regards to Weavile, which mops the floor with Amoonguss.

This also doesn't take into consideration that Thick Fat gives Megasaur more staying power than Amoonguss, which is based on switching to utilize properly.

To me, Pokemon that Amoonguss is meant to check is done overall better by Megasaur. Even if we used the "it doesn't use up a Mega and it has Black Sludge, therefore Megasaur is weaker to hazards" argument, what can Amoonguss do once it used Spore? It's like I said with Cresselia: "Too passive". Megasaur is threatening on an Offensive and Defensive level, something Amoonguss cannot claim. Can it switch reliably? Sure it can. Which one holds more ground, however? That's the argument I give with it. I'm leaning a disagree with the Amoonguss rise, but I will also say that I'm against a Megasaur rise currently as well.

Like I said, though, I'm only leaning. Hell, AM still doesn't see the point in rising it and he's even more credible than I ever would be.
 

Martin

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Honestly Salamence isn't even good enough to warrant D rank now that the "conditions" for D have been raised. Like, even the defensive set is extremely mediocre. If there was a "don't use" rank then Salamence would definitely sit in it because it is just that bad, and to say that it sits on the same level as anything currently in D would insults to D ranks because they have actually niches which warrant D rank which Salamence simply lacks.
 

AM

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We don't do the whole "this is in BL so there's an obligation to rank" anyways. That hasn't been a thing for OU Rankings for a long time or at least as long as I've been here. Other VRs do that but the logic is a bit arbitrary if not dumb anyways.
 
And so it begins.

Both of them are assumed to check similar correct, right? Let's see how a similar situation would be with a switch in, switch out, and attack tank, in this case, Breloom will be the opposing Pokemon they are switching in. Both Pokemon will do the exact same/similar move and attempt to tank the exact same hit until critical moments happen. Assumptions are that Amoonguss holds Black Sludge and Stealth Rock is on the field.

Turn 1: Amoonguss switches in, taking Stealth Rock damage, leaving it at 378/431. It then tanks Mach Punch (which does just barely above Bullet Seed and 3 hits), which would leave Amoonguss anywhere between 296/431 and 309/431. At the end of the turn, Black Sludge heals for anywhere between 322/431 and 335/431.

Turn 2: Amoonguss uses Sludge Bomb when Breloom switches out for, let's use, Heatran. Nothing happens and Black Sludge heals for anywhere between 348/431 and 361/431.


Turn 1: Megasaur switches in, taking Stealth Rock damage, leaving it at 318/363. It then tanks Mach Punch, which would leave it anywhere between 265/363 and 274/363.

Turn 2: Megasaur uses Sludge Bomb when Breloom switches out for Heatran. No damage.


Clearly, in a regular 1v1 situation, Amoonguss would switch out and heal itself, bringing in a better check to Heatran. On the other hand, things could be different.

Mega Venusaur, as mentioned before, has the ability to run coverage moves Amoonguss cannot; Earthquake would be the Heatran deterrent in this case. If both were Defensive, though, Heatran would likely go for a Taunt to prevent Spore and Leech Seed, respectively. It's obvious that Amoonguss has more switchability, but it doesn't have the same staying power; Mega Venusaur still has the ability to be offensive, taking Pokemon like Magnezone out without worry thanks to Earthquake. Amoonguss has less staying power, but easily healed without a healing move. Even then, Defensive Mega Venusaur can make up for this by running Synthesis, which allows it to stay in against foes that would otherwise break it.

This is the critical moment I was talking about. Amoonguss would likely switch out and go back to full health, dealing a whole 9.9% of Life Orb Recoil damage to Breloom. Megasaur can stay in and Earthquake Heatran, which is a 2HKO. It is also critical with other switch ins. If Stealth Rock is up on the other side, Talonflame would still survive the SR + Sludge Bomb attack from Amoonguss--barely, but still. On the other hand, it cannot survive SR + Sludge Bomb from Megasaur.

I think THIS is what many people see in staying power:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 55-64 (15.3 - 17.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 168 Def Amoonguss: 69-82 (16 - 19%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

I see more of this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 168 Def Amoonguss: 144-171 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 94-111 (25.8 - 30.5%) -- 15.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Or this (both below are the most powerful options):

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Amoonguss: 176-208 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mega Venusaur: 102-120 (28 - 33%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Or this:

32 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 168 Def Amoonguss: 180-213 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
32 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 118-139 (32.5 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Or any calculation in regards to Weavile, which mops the floor with Amoonguss.

This also doesn't take into consideration that Thick Fat gives Megasaur more staying power than Amoonguss, which is based on switching to utilize properly.

To me, Pokemon that Amoonguss is meant to check is done overall better by Megasaur. Even if we used the "it doesn't use up a Mega and it has Black Sludge, therefore Megasaur is weaker to hazards" argument, what can Amoonguss do once it used Spore? It's like I said with Cresselia: "Too passive". Megasaur is threatening on an Offensive and Defensive level, something Amoonguss cannot claim. Can it switch reliably? Sure it can. Which one holds more ground, however? That's the argument I give with it. I'm leaning a disagree with the Amoonguss rise, but I will also say that I'm against a Megasaur rise currently as well.

Like I said, though, I'm only leaning. Hell, AM still doesn't see the point in rising it and he's even more credible than I ever would be.
I never said that Amoonguss was better than Mega Venusaur. I was trying to point out you completely ignored a major point between the two. I am not going to involve myself in discussing which mon was better, I merely wanted to point out that hazards is a major point when comparing Mega Venusaur to anything. Please do not involve me in this discussion anymore, I merely wanted to point out something and you know, not get involved in a tirade
 
And so it begins.

Both of them are assumed to check similar correct, right? Let's see how a similar situation would be with a switch in, switch out, and attack tank, in this case, Breloom will be the opposing Pokemon they are switching in. Both Pokemon will do the exact same/similar move and attempt to tank the exact same hit until critical moments happen. Assumptions are that Amoonguss holds Black Sludge and Stealth Rock is on the field.

Turn 1: Amoonguss switches in, taking Stealth Rock damage, leaving it at 378/431. It then tanks Mach Punch (which does just barely above Bullet Seed and 3 hits), which would leave Amoonguss anywhere between 296/431 and 309/431. At the end of the turn, Black Sludge heals for anywhere between 322/431 and 335/431.

Turn 2: Amoonguss uses Sludge Bomb when Breloom switches out for, let's use, Heatran. Nothing happens and Black Sludge heals for anywhere between 348/431 and 361/431.


Turn 1: Megasaur switches in, taking Stealth Rock damage, leaving it at 318/363. It then tanks Mach Punch, which would leave it anywhere between 265/363 and 274/363.

Turn 2: Megasaur uses Sludge Bomb when Breloom switches out for Heatran. No damage.


Clearly, in a regular 1v1 situation, Amoonguss would switch out and heal itself, bringing in a better check to Heatran. On the other hand, things could be different.

Mega Venusaur, as mentioned before, has the ability to run coverage moves Amoonguss cannot; Earthquake would be the Heatran deterrent in this case. If both were Defensive, though, Heatran would likely go for a Taunt to prevent Spore and Leech Seed, respectively. It's obvious that Amoonguss has more switchability, but it doesn't have the same staying power; Mega Venusaur still has the ability to be offensive, taking Pokemon like Magnezone out without worry thanks to Earthquake. Amoonguss has less staying power, but easily healed without a healing move. Even then, Defensive Mega Venusaur can make up for this by running Synthesis, which allows it to stay in against foes that would otherwise break it.

This is the critical moment I was talking about. Amoonguss would likely switch out and go back to full health, dealing a whole 9.9% of Life Orb Recoil damage to Breloom. Megasaur can stay in and Earthquake Heatran, which is a 2HKO. It is also critical with other switch ins. If Stealth Rock is up on the other side, Talonflame would still survive the SR + Sludge Bomb attack from Amoonguss--barely, but still. On the other hand, it cannot survive SR + Sludge Bomb from Megasaur.

I think THIS is what many people see in staying power:

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 55-64 (15.3 - 17.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 168 Def Amoonguss: 69-82 (16 - 19%) -- possible 7HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

I see more of this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 168 Def Amoonguss: 144-171 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 94-111 (25.8 - 30.5%) -- 15.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Or this (both below are the most powerful options):

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 248 HP / 92+ SpD Amoonguss: 176-208 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mega Venusaur: 102-120 (28 - 33%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Or this:

32 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 168 Def Amoonguss: 180-213 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
32 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 118-139 (32.5 - 38.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Or any calculation in regards to Weavile, which mops the floor with Amoonguss.

This also doesn't take into consideration that Thick Fat gives Megasaur more staying power than Amoonguss, which is based on switching to utilize properly.

To me, Pokemon that Amoonguss is meant to check is done overall better by Megasaur. Even if we used the "it doesn't use up a Mega and it has Black Sludge, therefore Megasaur is weaker to hazards" argument, what can Amoonguss do once it used Spore? It's like I said with Cresselia: "Too passive". Megasaur is threatening on an Offensive and Defensive level, something Amoonguss cannot claim. Can it switch reliably? Sure it can. Which one holds more ground, however? That's the argument I give with it. I'm leaning a disagree with the Amoonguss rise, but I will also say that I'm against a Megasaur rise currently as well.

Like I said, though, I'm only leaning. Hell, AM still doesn't see the point in rising it and he's even more credible than I ever would be.
Ok, time to crack into this:

For starters, you seemed to completely forget about the one thing that made Amoonguss surpass Venu in the first place: SAND. It is very fair to say at the moment that Sand is the dominant playstyle, seeing as how many metagame trends it's spawned over the last few months (http://www.smogon.com/articles/ou-meta-trends). With that being said, Sand has completely screwed over Venu, since it completely neuters Venu's only form of recovery, which, combined with hazards, residual from sand, a lack of leftovers, and potential Scald burns from Keldeo (something that Venu will be wanting to switch in on a ton for obvious reasons) and it suddenly looks very hard to justify using Venu there. Enter Amoonguss, a mon that has ways that can sustain itself regardless of whether sand is up or not via regen + black sludge. Amoonguss has way more staying power against Sand teams than Mega Venu, that is undeniable at this point.

Secondly, you list Venu being able to check things better than Amoonguss thanks to having better bulk. Looking at the calcs you provided, it would appear that you're using the standard Smogon spread, bar one tiny detail: those calcs use Calm Amoonguss instead of Bold Amoonguss, as the standard spread utilizes. Suddenly calcs start looking less like this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 168 Def Amoonguss: 144-171 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 96+ Def Mega Venusaur: 94-111 (25.8 - 30.5%) -- 15.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

and more like this:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 132-156 (30.5 - 36.1%) -- 46.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 112-132 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

And yes, I am using Offensive Venu in these calcs (as I am for this entire post) since Venu's main niche over Amoonguss is offensive presence, it only really needs HP investment to check what it's supposed to and the only reason I can fathom to use Defensive Venu over Offensive is on hard stall teams (tho that niche has been taken over by Amoonguss, surprise surprise). Even if I did use Defensive Venu for that calc the difference is only about 30% which isn't very huge.

Lastly, I think you, as well as a lot of people, are underestimating just how flexible Amoonguss's last moveslot is. You mention that after Sporing something, Amoonguss invites in Torn, Talon and Tran, which is true. However most people seem to think HP Fire or Clear Smog/Sludge Bomb is set in stone when you can just as easily run Stun Spore or Toxic, both of which obviously cripple Talon and Torn, as well as Tran being Para'd. Also, what's Venu doing to these mons? If we refer to Sp.def Talon (the most common set rn) and AV Torn, both are getting 3hko'd (2hko'd after rocks) and then what? Venu stays in to be 2hko'd by Hurricane or Brave Bird, or lets Talon roost up in its face and allows itself to be burned? (note that this is the offensive spread btw, the defensive set would be letting these guys in easier) And you're gonna EQ Tran? Honestly EQ might be the worst choice of move on Venu, you're letting yourself become setup fodder for about every steel from Scizor to Ferro to even Skarmory for coverage on just one Pokemon? Oh sure, you can use it to bait Magnezone, but you're still gonna be 2hkoing on the switch (unless you get that nice and crisp 18.8% chance to ohko after rocks on scarf variants) like HP Fire would. Not to mention that in order for you to bait and do any damage to Zone you have to hit it on the switch since Scarf variants will switch out and Specs variants 2hko w/ flash cannon.

TL;DR Venu's staying power is gutted by Sand, your calcs are pretty bad tbh, and Amoonguss has more versatility over Venu since the latter almost always wants to run HP Fire for reasons mentioned above.
 
I read your post and the center of you argument is that Magneton cannot switch on Tornadus-T or Weavile, both which are what Magneton supposedly has advantage over unlike Magnezone.

Well, obviously speaking, neither Magneton or Magnezone are supposed to switch in comfortably. They are both really frail and while Magnezone has more bulk it still doesn't want to switch into Weavile, Tornadus-T, Mega Daincie or something like that. Yes you MAY switch Magnezone on Talonflame and Mega Pinsir but you can do that with Magneton too although less comfortably. Let's say that Magnezone had the same base speed as Magneton, it STILL wouldn't switch onto Tornadus-T, Weavile, or offensive Starmie. Just like AM said if you are using Magneton as your main check to Tornadus-T or Weavile than your team REALLY needs revision. Of course Magneton is only the softest check at best but it has its main niche over Magnezone of being able to outspeed both of the mons and revenge killing them, or at least forcing the switch and gaining momentum with an easy double or Volt Switch. In essence Magneton is something "nice" to have against Weavile since it outspeeds it and it can be a backup answer if you're really struggling with it.

The main niche of Magnezone is basically trapping bulky steel types that can put a stop or at least annoy some of its teammates. Magneton can do the exact same thing Scarf Magnezone will do but even better thanks to the added speed, the extra bulk is 9/10 not needed when using Scarf. HOWEVER, the bulk will come into play if you are using Magnezone's /arguably/ best set, which is Specs. Point is Magneton shouldn't be as low as C- or even C when Magnezone is freakin' B+ when Magneton can do a better job at what Magnezone's most popular set does.
 
I read your post and the center of you argument is that Magneton cannot switch on Tornadus-T or Weavile, both which are what Magneton supposedly has advantage over unlike Magnezone.

Well, obviously speaking, neither Magneton or Magnezone are supposed to switch in comfortably. They are both really frail and while Magnezone has more bulk it still doesn't want to switch into Weavile, Tornadus-T, Mega Daincie or something like that. Yes you MAY switch Magnezone on Talonflame and Mega Pinsir but you can do that with Magneton too although less comfortably. Let's say that Magnezone had the same base speed as Magneton, it STILL wouldn't switch onto Tornadus-T, Weavile, or offensive Starmie. Just like AM said if you are using Magneton as your main check to Tornadus-T or Weavile than your team REALLY needs revision. Of course Magneton is only the softest check at best but it has its main niche over Magnezone of being able to outspeed both of the mons and revenge killing them, or at least forcing the switch and gaining momentum with an easy double or Volt Switch. In essence Magneton is something "nice" to have against Weavile since it outspeeds it and it can be a backup answer if you're really struggling with it.

The main niche of Magnezone is basically trapping bulky steel types that can put a stop or at least annoy some of its teammates. Magneton can do the exact same thing Scarf Magnezone will do but even better thanks to the added speed, the extra bulk is 9/10 not needed when using Scarf. HOWEVER, the bulk will come into play if you are using Magnezone's /arguably/ best set, which is Specs. Point is Magneton shouldn't be as low as C- or even C when Magnezone is freakin' B+ when Magneton can do a better job at what Magnezone's most popular set does.
I do like to point out that the argument made by smg64 specifically tried to explain why the speed does not matter that much since it only improves the relevant matchups barely.

Also, the 50/95/70+120 vs 70/115/90+130 comparison on base stats is hardly insignificant. Unfortunately I don't see either side of the debate trying to work out this jump in stats and evaluate the actual amount of advantage gained by Magnezone under this criteria.

Personally though, I am neutral about the placment of magneton. And all I want to point out is that the magneton vs magnezone debate seem to be heading towards a bit of a weird direction right now.
 
if people would stop using the shitty scarf magnezone that is almost completely outclassed by magneton, you will see why zone is way higher. zone's specs thunderbolt is one of the easiest attacks to spam in the current meta, because of zone's excellent physical bulk compared to magneton's and higher special attack. magneton would be forced to run timid to somewhat differentiate itself, but 70 speed really isn't high enough tbh. not to mention zone can afford to run HP evs on its specs set (i wouldn't put more than enough spe to outrun bulky m-scizor tbh).

however i do agree magneton needs to rise. scarf magnezone is shit shit SHIT, use scarf magneton instead, which is C+ worthy imo because no way in hell is it on par with cofagrigus and staraptor. it actually outspeeds starmie and base 115s (zone loses by one point trololol), torn-T, weavile, scarftar and hawlucha, pokemon magnezone would really like to revenge kill but can only dream of. also magneton is still strong enough to take out steels in skarmory, ferrothorn and scizor, and i can't think of any steel that can get past magneton but lose to zone.

raise magneton to C+ pls
 

Martin

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The issue with Magneton, at least IMO, is why the fuck would you ever need to use this thing beyond bad teambuilding? Like, if it's your Weavile or Torn answer your team probably has more problems than just needing to check those, it's not a very good trapper at all considering that the stuff it traps just sets up hazards on it or U-turns out and because it's extremely weak, it is forced to TBolt vs. SpD Skarmory if it wants to take it out without it literally roosting most of the damage off on the same turn--which is easy to abuse with teammates which can use Magneton as complete setup bait due to being locked into an Electric-type attack. Honestly I'd say Coffagrigus is better because it's niche is just much more useful and doesn't require poor building to be worth using. Beyond this, Mega Manectric does literally it's entire niche over Magnezone better than it while being generally easier to fit onto builds.

Basically, don't raise Magneton. It's awful.

Also I've just noticed that Cobalion is sitting in C- despite being noticably better than just about everything in it's rank barring Dugtrio and maybe Kyurem depending on your opinion of Specs Kyurem. We all know what Cobalion does; it counters Darks, it pivots, it has lots of utility, it soft-checks fairies. While the omnipresence of grounds/sand isn't nice for it (although Shuca--one of it's better variants--is really nice and straight-up wins vs. sand), it is just generally really useful and it isn't even particularly hard to fit onto builds simply because of how good its utility is and how good it is at its job. I'm going to nom it to rise to C because the metagame isn't even particularly unkind to it beyond the Ground-type thing and it is definitely better than the vast majority of the stuff in C- at least imo (also putting it in the same rank as Mega Aggron is an insult to Cobalion).
 
cofag is better? i disagree. the def set really suffers from its low HP stat and decent-at-best special defense which means unlike good def tanks (hippo, lando-T, chomp, slowbro) who can tank a special hit if needed, cofag can't really. i guess it punishes mega lop and medicham but outside of that it really isn't that great as a physical tank. honestly, i believe the NP + trick room set is actually better because even though it's not a stellar sweeper, it can at least severely disrupt HO teams if you're running bulky offense (e.g. you have azu who can use its low speed to break AND outspeed everything for 2 or 3 turns, or diggersby who can also somewhat do the same). it's not complete pursuit bait either, as it can at least use LO HP fighting to OHKO weavile and 2HKO t-tar, outspeeding both of them in trick room.

cofag is fine in C- but magneton needs to rise
 

Martin

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To say that Mag is better than Coffag is, at least imo, seriously underselling the utility of Mummy and Wisp, and being one of the few defensive non-mega counters to Mega Medicham is pretty huge in general as well (causes HJK to crash, replaces Pure Power when hit by anything else and doesn't drop to BoltBeam like is the case with other defensive Ghosts barring Doublade who lacks any form or recovery outside of rest due to it's Evio reliance and lack of even Pain Split), with it fitting on different builds to Reuniclus and not being completely passive like is the case with Cresselia due to Wisp/T-Spikes+STAB Hex being really sweet in generall while also being the only viable Ghost-type which doesn't lose to Mega Lopunny (Gengar, Sableye and Doublade all drop to this thing's STABs). You are also underselling it's bulk immensely. While it is offset by it's disappointing HP stat, but it's defense stat is so stupidly high that it is still stupidly physically bulky. To illustrate this, take a look at this calc: 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 244-291 (76.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. You would rarely ever be in a situation where you would need to take this hit, but it just illustrates how stupidly bulky this thing is on the physical side to the point where I don't quite understand your logic here; you aren't using it to tank special hits, so don't paint it as if it should be. It is just a generally good way to tank physical hits, meaning that it will rarely be complete dead weight in a given matchup. It's TR set is generally extremely mediocre at what it does and most of the time is done better by OTR Reuniclus or OTR Slowking who both have higher SpA stats and access to useful coverage options which aren't called Hidden Power (as well as Slowking having STAB Scald).

Magneton, on the other hand, traps steels really poorly (it has to actively choose between not actaully eliminating a healthy Skarmory or becoming setup bait for one of it's teammates, for example) and has it's key niche over it's evolution done better by something else. It's virtually impossible to justify why you'd use this thing, and as someone who has used Magneton multiple times in the past I can attest to it's mediocrity. There are also a lot of matchups where it is mostly dead weight, which is really irritating to say the least, and as far as offensive electrics go it isn't even that good at what it does. It's weak without a boosting item (even base 120 falls short a lot of the time without one or a positive nature), it is irritatingly frail due to it's inability to invest and it really suffers from the locking that it's Choice Scarf forces.

I'm not saying rise Coffag, but I just can't see why the fuck you would ever want to use Magneton over anything else if the reasoning isn't "my team is kinda poorly built so let me patch it up with this awful form of role compression" and there is no way in hell that it warrants being ranked higher than it. Don't rise Magneton.
 

Alakazam to B+

This was previously proposed but not much people were talking about it. I think that it is very good change.
Alakazam is fast. Base 120 speed is very, very good for wallbreaker and in ORAS OU only 5 mons are faster. It's wallbreaker that not only breaks walls but also can revenge kill many threads. It gives him edge over other non mega wallbreakers like nidoking, kyurem.

2HKOs pretty much everything. Yeah, only thing that isn't 2HKO from full HP is chansey and AV tangrowth. And guess what? Alakazam can run knock off to get rid of both AV and eviolite. And after that:

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tangrowth: 212-251 (52.4 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 268-317 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 347-409 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not even spd Jirachi is good against Alakazam.

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You get any and this thing is no longer switch in.
Has good matchup against cookie cutter teams. You know, teams like mega scizor/keldeo/bulky lando/latios/clef. What teams like that have for 4 attacks Alakazam (with HP fire)? Or other cookie cutter team of mega sabley, chansey, skarmory have for this set?

Alakazam @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Knock Off
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast

This replays shows what happens when somebody meets alakazam unprepared:


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-402575529


Let's look now for some counterarguments:

Mega Alakazam is better. - Well B+ is still lower than A- and pay attention that you have opportunity cost of mega evolution! Moreover LO Alakazam still have better matchup against few notably threats due to higher firepower.

Weavile and Torn-t beats Alakazam - Both of them are not invincible nor omnipreset. Not to mention that WE HAVE LATIOS AT A+ DESPITE HE'S ALSO BEATEN BY WEAVILE AND TORN!

It fails to OHKO stuff - You have base 120 speed mon, take use of it! Force situation when your opponent have to sack it's mon or switch and risk 2HKO by coverage move. And you still deals quite nice chunk of damage to some major threads (keldeo, latios, diance, slowbro, heatran, ferrothorn) so it's not so hard to put them in OHKO range.
 

Alakazam to B+

This was previously proposed but not much people were talking about it. I think that it is very good change.
Alakazam is fast. Base 120 speed is very, very good for wallbreaker and in ORAS OU only 5 mons are faster. It's wallbreaker that not only breaks walls but also can revenge kill many threads. It gives him edge over other non mega wallbreakers like nidoking, kyurem.

2HKOs pretty much everything. Yeah, only thing that isn't 2HKO from full HP is chansey and AV tangrowth. And guess what? Alakazam can run knock off to get rid of both AV and eviolite. And after that:

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tangrowth: 212-251 (52.4 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey: 268-317 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Chansey: 347-409 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not even spd Jirachi is good against Alakazam.

252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 174-205 (43 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You get any and this thing is no longer switch in.
Has good matchup against cookie cutter teams. You know, teams like mega scizor/keldeo/bulky lando/latios/clef. What teams like that have for 4 attacks Alakazam (with HP fire)? Or other cookie cutter team of mega sabley, chansey, skarmory have for this set?

Alakazam @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Knock Off
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast

This replays shows what happens when somebody meets alakazam unprepared:


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-402575529


Let's look now for some counterarguments:

Mega Alakazam is better. - Well B+ is still lower than A- and pay attention that you have opportunity cost of mega evolution! Moreover LO Alakazam still have better matchup against few notably threats due to higher firepower.

Weavile and Torn-t beats Alakazam - Both of them are not invincible nor omnipreset. Not to mention that WE HAVE LATIOS AT A+ DESPITE HE'S ALSO BEATEN BY WEAVILE AND TORN!

It fails to OHKO stuff - You have base 120 speed mon, take use of it! Force situation when your opponent have to sack it's mon or switch and risk 2HKO by coverage move. And you still deals quite nice chunk of damage to some major threads (keldeo, latios, diance, slowbro, heatran, ferrothorn) so it's not so hard to put them in OHKO range.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with a raise -- after all, Alakazam is quite terrifying to fight. I just want to say two things.

a) The reason Latios is hanging out in A+ is cuz he provides nifty role compression, barely passable bulk, and power, all in one serving.
b) I think if you're serious about this, then you might want to talk anout how Alakazam overshadows mons in B rank. What makes him stand out over Qltaria, Aerodactyl, Slowking, etc. and why would he fit in B+, where mons such as Tangrowth reside?
c) While you're at it, you might want to consider how well it can fight mons like Clefable and Sableye, both of whom are all over the place.
 
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with a raise -- after all, Alakazam is quite terrifying to fight. I just want to say two things.

a) The reason Latios is hanging out in A+ is cuz he provides nifty role compression, barely passable bulk, and power, all in one serving.
b) I think if you're serious about this, then you might want to talk anout how Alakazam overshadows mons in B rank. What makes him stand out over Qltaria, Aerodactyl, Slowking, etc. and why would he fit in B+, where mons such as Tangrowth reside?
c) While you're at it, you might want to consider how well it can fight mons like Clefable and Sableye, both of whom are all over the place.
a) Agreed. Latios is great mon and no on doubt it's viability. However I know that some people dissagree with alakazam rise because of popularity of Weavile/Torn. I want to show that this is valid argument if we would bring stuff like Latios down.


b) I don't think there is much sense in comparing zam and slowking or aerodactyl because they are much diffrent mons. However I think that Alakazam can be consider as good as Nidokin/Kyurem-B in terms of wallbreaking because of it's speed. It fails to OHKO unlike Nidoking but due to high speed it isn't that huge problem. While nidoking can get turned around and overwhelmed because low base speed (they switch in lations on your earth power and force switch).

Of course nidoking also has it's advantages over Alakazam.

c) Stallbreaker set (credits to McMeghan) can deal quite nice with Mega Sableye. Or you can switch in on whisp and deal suicidal ~70% with dazzling gleam (30% sableye is as good as dead in most cases) or you dazzling gleam on their switch in(because usually it's safe switch in, shadow ball deals pitiful damage) and 2HKO.

Clef is a bit more tricky because nothing really beat clef (fat drill/nidoking is as close as it can be) but Alakazam isn't too bad. With knock off can 2HKO Clef bar unfortunate para. With taunt/psyshock you can deal with celf even with boosts. 4attacks is out of luck this time.
 
To say that Mag is better than Coffag is, at least imo, seriously underselling the utility of Mummy and Wisp, and being one of the few defensive non-mega counters to Mega Medicham is pretty huge in general as well (causes HJK to crash, replaces Pure Power when hit by anything else and doesn't drop to BoltBeam like is the case with other defensive Ghosts barring Doublade who lacks any form or recovery outside of rest due to it's Evio reliance and lack of even Pain Split), with it fitting on different builds to Reuniclus and not being completely passive like is the case with Cresselia due to Wisp/T-Spikes+STAB Hex being really sweet in generall while also being the only viable Ghost-type which doesn't lose to Mega Lopunny (Gengar, Sableye and Doublade all drop to this thing's STABs). You are also underselling it's bulk immensely. While it is offset by it's disappointing HP stat, but it's defense stat is so stupidly high that it is still stupidly physically bulky. To illustrate this, take a look at this calc: 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cofagrigus: 244-291 (76.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. You would rarely ever be in a situation where you would need to take this hit, but it just illustrates how stupidly bulky this thing is on the physical side to the point where I don't quite understand your logic here; you aren't using it to tank special hits, so don't paint it as if it should be. It is just a generally good way to tank physical hits, meaning that it will rarely be complete dead weight in a given matchup. It's TR set is generally extremely mediocre at what it does and most of the time is done better by OTR Reuniclus or OTR Slowking who both have higher SpA stats and access to useful coverage options which aren't called Hidden Power (as well as Slowking having STAB Scald).

Magneton, on the other hand, traps steels really poorly (it has to actively choose between not actaully eliminating a healthy Skarmory or becoming setup bait for one of it's teammates, for example) and has it's key niche over it's evolution done better by something else. It's virtually impossible to justify why you'd use this thing, and as someone who has used Magneton multiple times in the past I can attest to it's mediocrity. There are also a lot of matchups where it is mostly dead weight, which is really irritating to say the least, and as far as offensive electrics go it isn't even that good at what it does. It's weak without a boosting item (even base 120 falls short a lot of the time without one or a positive nature), it is irritatingly frail due to it's inability to invest and it really suffers from the locking that it's Choice Scarf forces.

I'm not saying rise Coffag, but I just can't see why the fuck you would ever want to use Magneton over anything else if the reasoning isn't "my team is kinda poorly built so let me patch it up with this awful form of role compression" and there is no way in hell that it warrants being ranked higher than it. Don't rise Magneton.
mummy is a cool ability and cofag's main niche but honestly not good enough to give its defensive set a niche outside select teams; countering mega medicham is something megasab and reuniclus can also do, with the latter using it as setup fodder. you can also use physically defensive mew if you want to. this isn't the same with OTR sets as cofag isn't 2hkoed by zen headbutt due to mummy and can easily switch into HJK/fake out or preferably its 4th coverage move and threaten to set up, while reuniclus and slowking are both overwhelmed by its retarded HJK.

yes it may live a knock off from LO bisharp/weavile but what i'm pointing out is that pursuit trappers can force it to eat a knock off or CB crunch anyway. bisharp may not be that good, sure. but cofag loathes pursuit the same reason cresselia does; it's forced to either stay in and possibly take huge damage from ttar's main STAB or get out and eat a CB pursuit that leaves it into the opponent's SD exca's KO range or something. cofag does have will-o-wisp i guess, but that's not really a saving grace if it gets 2hkoed anyway - the fact that weavile and ttar are often paired with zard X/Y aren't great news either.

however cofagrigus's worst problem is the lack of reliable recovery, pain split really doesn't get the job done, whereas reuniclus, megasab, mew, slowbro do. gliscor also has it, and lando-T makes up for it via stealth rock, u-turn and swords dance; chomp gets dragon tail... cofag really doesn't get the job done defensively, trick room is better because it allows cofag to sweep at late-game and pave the way for pokemon such as azu to break through HO teams with little impunity; it also gets rid of pursuiters via +2 hp fighting


meanwhile i really fail to see why would you use scarf magnezone instead of magneton; it has 10 spa more than it and better physical bulk but honestly using scarf magnezone over magneton is like using specs kyurem-B over kyurem.
 

Martin

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FWIW I'm not recommending Scarf Magnezone; I'm saying that you should never realistically need to run a scarfed magnet in the first place as they are so fucking bad. Like, Coffagrigus isn't much better, but it is actually worth using sometimes unlike Magneton, which is why I don't understand why the hell anyone is nomming it to rise. Once again, this isn't me nomming Coffag for anything; this is me saying that Coffag is better than this god-awful Pokémon because the role compression it provides isn't awful like it is for Magneton, it is debatably the best defensive t-spiker due to it not losing to key Pokémon such as Medicham (literally every other semi-viable T-spiker, loses to this thing, with them dying to BoltBeam and dying even harder to the rare Zen variants), it can't be spun on and it's not completely passive like Tentacruel is. Like, the other thing is that I understand the Sab comparison until you consider that sab is passive and Coffag gives off actual field presence beyond sitting in front of something. You aren't gonna be taking Dark-type moves--that's not what I was implying, as it was explicitly to show how disgustingly fat this thing is. I never implied it had particularly good recovery, but it is passable for all the same reasons that it is passable on Rotom and actively takes advantage of it's low base HP stat to heal more you need it to be able to pivot in and take the hit to abuse them for purpose X, Y or Z, and Pain Split really isn't that bad because of this. Yes, I want it to get Heal Order or something, but it's not like it can't repeatedly check stuff if it needs to and it is useful beyond the late-game scenario (seriously use OTR Slowking or Reuniclus instead of OTR Coffag because it's just better). Once again, this isn't a nom and it is a low tier thing but Magneton isn't better than this thing which is what I am saying.

Seriously you can take literally any other Electric-type and it's better than Magneton is because it just doesn't exert a noteworthy niche, with it's key one (Magnet Pull) not even being done well by it, which is where it just falls flat on it's face. Like, if you need to use this ur team is probably bad. End of story. Coffag isn't good, but at least it works on teams that aren't poorly built like is the case with Magneton.

Anyway I'm contributing to the thread being derailed over a fucking C- rank so I'm not gonna respond anymore considering that the same things are just repeating over and over (this is with my arguments too).
 
Seriously you can take literally any other Electric-type and it's better than Magneton is because it just doesn't exert a noteworthy niche, with it's key one (Magnet Pull) not even being done well by it, which is where it just falls flat on it's face. Like, if you need to use this ur team is probably bad. End of story.
Ok, first, there's no way you actually said that. Magneton does completely different things compared to all the different electric types in the tier (bar Magnezone). And besides, there's no way Mega Ampharos and Rotom-H are better than Magneton. Heck, I'd say Thundurus-T is just as good as Magneton anyways but that's a different story.

You said that Magneton does not do its job well as a Magnet Pull user??

252 SpA Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 192-228 (54.5 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 248-296 (88.2 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 252-296 (75.4 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 204-240 (57.9 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magnezone Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Scizor: 264-312 (93.9 - 111%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 266-314 (79.6 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It literally does the exact same thing Scarf Magnezone does. Magnezone only does about 5% more damage output. In case of Ferrothorn, Bulky Mega Scizor, and SpD Skarmory, that doesn't matter at all. The only time it somewhat matters is against 0/0 Mega Scizor where Magnezone has 25% higher chance to OHKO Mega Scizor from full. That's it. It does everything else the exact same, but it gives the extra speed.

Whenever you're using the same old cores (that are still very viable btw) of Mega Pinsir, Mega Diancie, Mega Gyarados, or even Bulky Mega Scizor combined with Scarf Magnezone, it's 9/10 times better if you either replace Scarf Magnezone with Scarf Magneton or just make your Magnezone Specs and have different speed control answers. Mega Pinsir or Mega Diancie + Scarf Magnezone just makes you REALLY weak to Weavile unless you have solid counters to it. However, having Scarf Magneton at least boosts your matchup vs. Weavile a bit and doesn't put as much pressure on your teammates as Scarf Magnezone did because if you had Magnezone you are forced to switch out vs. Weavile or die but with Magneton you outspeed and you are not forced to switch.

All I'm saying is Scarf Magneton outclasses Scarf Magnezone most of the times; however, Magnezone is overall better than Magneton because it can utilize its bulk to viably run Specs. So Magnezone is obviously generally better than Magneton but that doesn't mean they should be so far apart. Magneton definitely deserves a rise.
 

Martin

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I know I said I wouldn't respond again so I apologise, but you have basically taken that comment out of context of what i said in my previous posts. Yes, that's it's goal over other electrics, but the other electics thing was in reference to other fast electrics rather than Mega Ampharos, with me in particular referring to Mega Manectric, and even then I'd be more inclined to use Mega Ampharos if only for a slow Volt Switch. This is because it requires Choice Scarf to hit it's speed tier, which makes it easy to abuse due to how poor a type electric is to be locked into while not having a particularly strong selection of other attacks to be locked into (probably it's best lockable move is Flash Cannon) Obviously you beat fast Mega Scizor (that was a big reason why Scarf Magnezone became popular for as long as it was), but beyond that I have covered why Scarf Magneton is a poor trapper in general (it doesn't hit hard enough and as such has a layer of rocks/spikes set up on it by Ferrothorn before it goes down while also being left locked into HP Fire which is easy for anything in the game which is not weak to take advantage of; if it wants to take out SpD Skarm that isn't already significantly weakened it is required to lock itself into TBolt, which is not ideal due to the fact that it makes it abusable for teammates (notably Lando-T, but also a number of others who set up on it or grab free momentum on it with ease)). I am not endorsing Scarf Magnezone (seriously I've said this at least twice already unless I subconciously deleted it as I was going over my posts) but what I am saying is that if your team requires fucking Magneton as your Weavile check then your team is probably poorly-built. Like, I get it--Magnezone also suffers from being locked (although even then non-choiced sets have grown on me recently specifically for this reason), but honestly if you need Magneton (and by extension Scarf Magnezone because it's basically the same thing which exchanges the speed tier for v. slightly better rolls on some things) it probably comes down to the team not being particularly well built, and if you want to eliminate steels by making yourself extremely abusable for the Steel-types' teammates then I don't know what to say to you because you would almost always be better off by carrying either an actually good Magnezone set or another way of dealong with steels over either magnet with a Choice Scarf. The lack of reason to use these sets is why I don't think that there is any warrant for a rise, because if you account for just how you can justify Specs or any trap-specific set other than Scarf on Magnezone nowadays whereas it's hard to justify using a scarfed magnet (be it zone or ton) it very quickly becomes apparent just how big a viability gap there is between these two Pokémon to the point where I can't realistically see it above C-.

The other thing to consider here that I should have probably brought up earlier considering that they are much more comparable is that placing Magneton above C- puts it above Dugtrio, which is quite clearly better than Magneton is for anyone who uses the Duggy on a somewhat regular basis (myself included) for reasons which should be pretty obvious, so moving it up without moving up Dugtrio would be pretty misinformative in general.

This time I actually mean my last response (if you respond to me don't do it in quotes so that I am not tempted to respond again). I am aware that I have derailed the thread over something extremely minor with this, for which I apologise, and I don't want to derail it more than I have.
 
I would like to Nominate Kyurem-Black to go from B+ to A-. Obviously it has monstrous base 170 attack and is honestly one of the most unpredictable mons in the tier. It could be banded, mixed, scarf, sub attacker which means it has the ability to break stall, 2 hit ko most steel types with its choice band set and outspeed pokemon it usually wouldn't with scarf and pick up unexpected kills, such as fusion bolting a tornados therian. It gets support from steel types such as Mega Scizor or Mega Metagross and Jirachi to break past fairies, which gives it the freedom to fire off outrages, which many pokemon have trouble switching into. Also opponents might be scared to switch in faries on potential iron heads, which 2 hit ko or Ohkho with choice band. Here are some calcs to support my claims.

252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 178-210 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 96 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 358-422 (110.8 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 336-396 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Now while Kyurem-Black does lack a physical Ice type move such as Icicle Crash most pokemon you will use ice beam against are ohkoed anyway such as Landorus-Therian and Garchomp. If you are facing the latis and are scarfed Dragon claw Ohkoes anyway and as stated before Fusion bolt ohkoes Tornadus-Therian.

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 384-452 (128.4 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Thats all I have to say, I have experienced Kyurem-Black from both sides and I don't think B+ is where it belongs with Pokemon Such as Nidoking and Tangrowth. Thank you :).
 
I would like to Nominate Kyurem-Black to go from B+ to A-. Obviously it has monstrous base 170 attack and is honestly one of the most unpredictable mons in the tier. It could be banded, mixed, scarf, sub attacker which means it has the ability to break stall, 2 hit ko most steel types with its choice band set and outspeed pokemon it usually wouldn't with scarf and pick up unexpected kills, such as fusion bolting a tornados therian. It gets support from steel types such as Mega Scizor or Mega Metagross and Jirachi to break past fairies, which gives it the freedom to fire off outrages, which many pokemon have trouble switching into. Also opponents might be scared to switch in faries on potential iron heads, which 2 hit ko or Ohkho with choice band. Here are some calcs to support my claims.

252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jirachi: 178-210 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 96 HP / 0- Def Tornadus-T: 358-422 (110.8 - 130.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 336-396 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Now while Kyurem-Black does lack a physical Ice type move such as Icicle Crash most pokemon you will use ice beam against are ohkoed anyway such as Landorus-Therian and Garchomp. If you are facing the latis and are scarfed Dragon claw Ohkoes anyway and as stated before Fusion bolt ohkoes Tornadus-Therian.

252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 384-452 (128.4 - 151.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Thats all I have to say, I have experienced Kyurem-Black from both sides and I don't think B+ is where it belongs with Pokemon Such as Nidoking and Tangrowth. Thank you :).
To be honest, I'm sure there are very few people here who don't know what KyuB does, and I also find it strange that you gave no mention of it's Life Orb set. On top of that, I find myself repeating this over and over, you haven't explained how the metagame has changed in any way that warrants a rise. You've still compared it to other 'mons of its rank, such as Nido and Tangrowth, except that I don't believe either 'mon is necessarily less viable, especially considering that there was a nomination for Tangrowth to rise not too long ago, and some discussion about Nidoking some time before that IIRC. Furthermore, if you're bringing up the prevelance of steels as team support to help it break fairies, then that could easily go against KyuB considering that those same Steels are decent answers to it - definitely not hard stops but definitely troublesome. Also, fairies can't really be effectively trapped (except like, Diancie by Duggy), so steels don't necessarily eliminate fairies for KyuB either. Of course, it can still muscle through them with Iron Head, but I still don't see many real reasons why KyuB's ranking should be going anywhere.
 

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