Life Orb Landorus-T makes it a lot more difficult to use Landorus-T as a pivot due to the recoil, which is why LO Landog is considered to be a bad set. Swords Dance Landorus-T is usually seen running Earth Plate if it is running maximum attack, so it still has a boost to offense (albeit only its Earthquake) without wearing itself down from LO recoil.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)
- Thread starter bludz
- Start date
I think that's important to define what matchups MLatias plays better than regular Lati duo. As far as I know only significant matchup is against Lando-I, Torn and MLatias almost completely shouts down torn (too bad they are going to U-turn). I would like to see if I missed anything other. It can take care of mixed thundurus and only mixed. NP deals tons with +2 HP ice and twav does skill stuff.
Unfortunately typical Latias counters and checks are also MLatias counters so be prepared for: Bisharp, Weavile, Tyranitar, Clef, Diance, Gardevoir, Gengar, Alakazam, Ferrothonr, Scizor, Metagross and probably few other, but these are big ones.
Mega Latios have bad case of 4 moveslot syndrome. It wants both stabs and surf but then it lacks offensive pressure with it's mediocre special attack. If it misses any of these moves it is walled by Heatran (surf), Amoongus (psyshock), or even Garchomp (dragon pulse/meteor). It wants Reflect Type to avoid Pursuit trap, Twave to be annoying and CM to do any damage at all.
Like I hardly see anything good in that mon. Sure it can check something like Keldeo, or Amoongus but regular Latios also can. Just tell me, not for sake of this topic but just for my curiosity: What makes it good? What it can check what Lati duo can't?
Unfortunately typical Latias counters and checks are also MLatias counters so be prepared for: Bisharp, Weavile, Tyranitar, Clef, Diance, Gardevoir, Gengar, Alakazam, Ferrothonr, Scizor, Metagross and probably few other, but these are big ones.
Mega Latios have bad case of 4 moveslot syndrome. It wants both stabs and surf but then it lacks offensive pressure with it's mediocre special attack. If it misses any of these moves it is walled by Heatran (surf), Amoongus (psyshock), or even Garchomp (dragon pulse/meteor). It wants Reflect Type to avoid Pursuit trap, Twave to be annoying and CM to do any damage at all.
Like I hardly see anything good in that mon. Sure it can check something like Keldeo, or Amoongus but regular Latios also can. Just tell me, not for sake of this topic but just for my curiosity: What makes it good? What it can check what Lati duo can't?
Using MLati and Lati@s are different things - yes I agree that they check similar things (the typing is still the same), but it's how they check it that affects the usage. MLati's added bulk is what makes its utility viable, that's what I meant.
Also, taking half on a Diancie switch (a lot of people switch this directly) is shaky, but if you look at my post pages back, I gave in game examples where I scouted for HP Fire or just killed Diancie with Surf after switch. I also meant you check dragons if you're running MSU's set like he posted. The other calcs like NP Thundy are on my post pages ago.
I mean if you're gonna calc +2 Lando-T you might as well calc +1 MLati assuming they boost at the same time and surf then does 92% min assuming Lando has HP investment, and if SR are up then you get ohkod. I never see LO Lando on high ladder and even doing 60-70% (more than I thought tho) assuming MLati isn't paired with something popular like Rotom-W/Lando for VoltTurn core, I think it's pretty safe to say MLati is a p good Lando check haha. Also helps that defensive Lando is everywhere rn.
The only issue with Mega Latias is that it is so easily hurt by status, and that renders it almost completely useless since a ton of its defensive calcs are barely avoiding 2/3HKOs. This is what happens wen your CM sweeper is also your Keldeo check. It WILL get burned and suddenly it starts struggling to take the moves it should have been taking and has to use up its recovery PP just to mitigate burn damage. Idk why people are pretending Latias is bad because it loses to SD Lando (what?) or comparing it to Mega Bro, when the fact of the matter is that its biggest weakness is status and being susceptible to VoltTurn.
Idc where it ends up but don't waste time arguing about non-issues for Mega Lati. Focus on the actual ones.
Idc where it ends up but don't waste time arguing about non-issues for Mega Lati. Focus on the actual ones.
I aim talk about the recent metagame "shift" due to OLT. Since metagame is full of birdspam and magicbouncer A+ makes sense to Excadrill.
Since BW Excadrill was a big threat even banned from OU in 5G. And today he is the perfect definition of the anti-metagame. Scarf is good to support the birdspam and check the birdspam... The sandsweeper needs weather however after one SD stopping him can be an annoying task. SRdrill vanishs Sab/Diancie's ability with moldbreaker. Furmother the mole does various jobs where no one can competitive him, one of the best RK, best hazard remover (defog stink).
Since BW Excadrill was a big threat even banned from OU in 5G. And today he is the perfect definition of the anti-metagame. Scarf is good to support the birdspam and check the birdspam... The sandsweeper needs weather however after one SD stopping him can be an annoying task. SRdrill vanishs Sab/Diancie's ability with moldbreaker. Furmother the mole does various jobs where no one can competitive him, one of the best RK, best hazard remover (defog stink).
Magnezone had a 70% win rate in SPL, and 59% in WCoP, which is above that of Clef, Lando, and Latios. Should we raise that above them, or could it possibly be that there are other factors in play? You know, maybe counter-teaming, or, actual player faults?
Please don't cite win rates as an argument without considering that there are actual people behind the Pokemon, and other members on the team etc. Find replays without cherry-picking to support your argument from WCoP, if anything.
Please don't cite win rates as an argument without considering that there are actual people behind the Pokemon, and other members on the team etc. Find replays without cherry-picking to support your argument from WCoP, if anything.
Everybody knows that Magnezone is heavily matchup dependent mon (and that's exacly why it's less viable than other stuff), so what's your point? Suddenly Mega Latios also depends on matchup as hard as magnezone?
I have better things to do than finding once again and analyzing 21 replays of World Cup. Maybe if we are discusing Mega Latios drop it should be responsibility of people who are against it?
For what I saw I can say one thing: if someone prepared for Lati duo, let's say he got Ttar, Weavile, Clef, Ferrothor, he usually won against Mega Latias.
Stop using shit arguments lol. Mega Latios doesn't also "suddenly depend on matchup as much as Magnezone", it's a reliable mon that would be good if it wasn't outshined by LO Latios. Look at your argument and rethink it. If 21 high level teams bothered to use Mega Latias there must be a reason. You are the one proposing change, it's your job to prove to us that said change is needed.
Yeah, and Mega Latias also wasn't used in any finals or semi finals game, wile Megas from A- like Mega Zam, Mega Metagross was used.
Oh, my bad, it was used in 1 semifinals game. And it lost.
Give me reason to even use Mega Latias. No irony. I used this mon in past and I think it's uderwhelming. I would love to see what makes it good but I have hard time doing so. Maybe I'm worng, but I see no matchups that are worth using mega stone on that thing. I much more gladly build teams around Mega Zam, Mega Metagross or Mega ZardX.
You wanted alayzed replays from World Cup? On my way, I just gotta do few thing before that!
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ahhh the wonderous smell of a shitfest. where is am when you need him. hasn't mega latios been blacklisted alr? why are we going on about this again ...
and yes, i support the move for suicune to go up to A- simply because it's become so much better with the metagame shifting so heavily towards the physically oriented HO. being able to spread around burns and even potentially phase out shitheads like mpins, talon, tg mana and whatnot makes it so much more bumped up as a defensive threat in this metagame. it also helps that it doesn't have some shitty dual typing that causes it to get wrecked by talon / bish so it's becoming rly rly much more awesome and thus deserve the rise.
and yes, i support the move for suicune to go up to A- simply because it's become so much better with the metagame shifting so heavily towards the physically oriented HO. being able to spread around burns and even potentially phase out shitheads like mpins, talon, tg mana and whatnot makes it so much more bumped up as a defensive threat in this metagame. it also helps that it doesn't have some shitty dual typing that causes it to get wrecked by talon / bish so it's becoming rly rly much more awesome and thus deserve the rise.
Mega Aggron --> D rank/Unrank I honestly can't find any good use for mega aggron, has no good recovery other than rest, very passive, needs to mega evolve so it can actually tank stuff, better hazard setters out their, gets wear down to easy, wates a mega slot and the only thing it can do is somewhat give damage out and can do a stealth rock + t-wave combo but even then clefable and ferro can do this, when I see mega aggron the same rank as cobalion when coba does not waste a mega slot, sets up rocks, gives out momentum with volt switch with actual decent speed tier and can put out decent damage I like to see mega aggron drop to D rank and if not un-rank it entirely, may look good on paper but in practice not good.
Your arguments hurt my head, oml. First of all, the fact that it was used in one semifinal game and lost is irrelevant. There are other factors to take into consideration including what you're comfortable/experienced with, what you're expecting your opponent to bring, your playstyle, etc.
Just because you have a hard time knowing what benefits a certain mon brings to the table doesn't mean they aren't there, bc they are. You're using weak facts like "38% win rate" when you can focus on stronger ones like Mega Latias being susceptible to status, like was mentioned before. Frankly I don't think anyone cares if you'd be much gladder building around Zam, ZardX, or Gross - no one's stopping you lol.
Also what do people think of MegaGross to A? I've been using the BoltBeam set and with the right amount of support, it serves as a really good late game cleaner. You also have BP for Weavile and Diancie just in case and it's impressive how well it takes hit uninvested.
I don't see Megagross rising, it has a fair amount of issues such as being hard-pressed for switch-ins since most things it wants to pivot in on pack coverage for steels or simply just click T-Wave. Its low speed also means it's easily out-sped pre-mega and is forced to take a hit against a few things before it can mega. Add that to it outright losing to two of top-tier mons in Scizor and Rotom and I can't see it hitting A at all.
While I'm at it, how would people feel about Terrakion to A? I'm mostly spitballing here since I don't have much experience with this guy but he 2hko's almost the entire tier with either Stone Edge or CC, with the only thing that can switch-in on him being Lando, who's getting a decent chunk of HP taken outta him:
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Terrakion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-T: 127-150 (33.3 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Add that to the fact that his decent speed tier means he isn't dead weight against faster teams and you have something that could qualify for A ranking.
I've recently gotten back in OU a bit and strongly disagree with AM about dropping Klefki. I think it could use a rise if anything. Spikes are obviously really good, and it pairs extremely well with Landorus-T as a bulky hazard core for offensive teams. Spikes are stupid good with Jirachi and Mega Scizor acting as checks to a lot of common offensive Pokemon (gard, diancie, latios and lop, weavile, bisharp, etc. respectively). In removing the Spikes it sets, Latios doesn't want to come in to Defog against it because then it is getting paralyzed, and while Excadrill can come in on essentially anything but Foul Play really easily, it gives a free switch into Landorus-T, which then grabs offensive momentum with U-turn. Even without Landorus-T by its side, Klefki is a good pivot into scary Pokemon such as Latios, Weavile, birds, Diancie, etc. I can't stress enough how good priority Thunder Wave is in a metagame where offensive mons often check offensive mons and can only come in so many times before you're forced to sac something else or predict like a god to keep them alive. Klefki isn't going to wall much, but it can check a lot and threaten almost everything thanks to Thunder Wave.
Aside from Spikes and Twave both being broken moves, Metal Sound means your team pretty much can't just autolose to Clefable no matter how it is built, and Toxic can keep stuff like Thundurus, Manectric, and bulky Grounds from coming in against it for free. Magnet Rise gets free Spikes against Landorus-T and Scarf Excadrill and allows Klefki to check Diancie more reliably. Overall, it's just a really solid support mon that I find infinitely easier to slap onto teams than almost the entirety of B rank and think it could stand to rise to B+. I don't know where it was when AM suggested it drop, but at the least I would highly advocate for it not to go below B.
Aside from Spikes and Twave both being broken moves, Metal Sound means your team pretty much can't just autolose to Clefable no matter how it is built, and Toxic can keep stuff like Thundurus, Manectric, and bulky Grounds from coming in against it for free. Magnet Rise gets free Spikes against Landorus-T and Scarf Excadrill and allows Klefki to check Diancie more reliably. Overall, it's just a really solid support mon that I find infinitely easier to slap onto teams than almost the entirety of B rank and think it could stand to rise to B+. I don't know where it was when AM suggested it drop, but at the least I would highly advocate for it not to go below B.
I fully agree with ryan at this. Klefki is an incredibly annoying pokemon for offense and balance to deal with, if not for Spikes, then for the great utility in priority Thunder Wave and Toxic. Being able to switch in on things like the Latis and threaten them with Twave forces switches, allowing it to set up Spikes easily. As ryan also mentioned, forming a solid core with Defensive Lando-T means that attempting to clear Hazards outside of Defensive Starmie or Skarm is troublesome due to how the pair pressures, again, Latis, Excadrill, even non-hpice Zapdos, meaning the opponent needs to find other openings or let a mon get crippled or outright killed. And seeing that its usually used on offense, finding room isnt always easy. It can potentially even opt to run Play Rough or Flash Cannon to harm the premium Magic Bouncers MSab and MDia (if you wish to).
Due to its stellar typing, it can check a good portion of the meta as well, although its bulk isnt that great. And of course priority twave is basically the best way to stop a setup-sweeper or scarfer to clean up your team, if youve managed to keep it alive.
Due to its stellar typing, it can check a good portion of the meta as well, although its bulk isnt that great. And of course priority twave is basically the best way to stop a setup-sweeper or scarfer to clean up your team, if youve managed to keep it alive.
Argumentum ad personam. Stop saying thinhs like that, this is logical fallacy and this makes you look like a douche.
Do you know what is law of large numbers? It's a scientific law that might not apply to every situation but if yo look at huge number of situations you can see a patter. Most of economics laws are laws of large numbers. If Mega Latias is good mon it should have high usage because people want to use successful stuff
So, single person might missplay but it is very unlikely to see 22 persons missplaying. World Cup was quite huge event, a lot of teams, a lot of plays and form statistic we can read some interesting facts.
But lets assume World Cup wasn't big enough to make use of law of large numbers. Fortunately we have access to ladder stats. On ladder there are tons of both bad and good players so skill shouldn't make any difference, right? So things that are viable in this metagame should be seen in ladder play. But we all know that Mega Latias is not even in OU by usage and never really was.
So if something fails to prove itself in huge number of ladder plays and in low numbers of high-skill tournament plays we can assuma that that thing is not good? Well, there is nothing more trusty and more true than math.
I'm sorry, but usage doesn't equate to viability; I understand your point but a lot of great mons aren't OU by usage but can be phenomenal (look at Terrakion, Volcarona, Diggersby). I don't hugely care where M-Latias goes because I find it quite underwhelming but usage should not be an argument unless it hits like 0% especially as its usage was high in WCOP even if its success rate was not, which could be because of a plethora of reasons.
On a separate note, definitely don't think Klefki should rise, genuinely think it's perfect where it is, but Landorus having more or less 50% usage means that Klefki is going to struggle in half of the matches it plays in, and I find other mons are better users of T-Wave despite Prankster due to not being weak to the ground types which threaten it out; especially as Magnet Rise always feels deadweight. Plus, it's not even that phenomenal a Latios check as they're all running Surf or HP Fire, especially with Specs becoming more prominent and it gets worn down so easily. However it does still play an important role in being an emergency stop to many set up sweepers and spikes being as good as ever, while being capable of threatening out the two main magic bounce users.
On a separate note, definitely don't think Klefki should rise, genuinely think it's perfect where it is, but Landorus having more or less 50% usage means that Klefki is going to struggle in half of the matches it plays in, and I find other mons are better users of T-Wave despite Prankster due to not being weak to the ground types which threaten it out; especially as Magnet Rise always feels deadweight. Plus, it's not even that phenomenal a Latios check as they're all running Surf or HP Fire, especially with Specs becoming more prominent and it gets worn down so easily. However it does still play an important role in being an emergency stop to many set up sweepers and spikes being as good as ever, while being capable of threatening out the two main magic bounce users.
Yeah, except there was no real arguments that I could've gotten at from your posts. I tried to reply to every part of your post as did like three others before me, so I'm not sure where your argumentum ad personam comes into play - I was simply stating how weak that argument was.
Ah, math and probability. I love this. First, the law of large numbers applies when there is an expected value or when the frequency of events are fairly equal after a large number of trials. We're talking about how viable Mega Latias is currently, not its usage. Regardless though, not sure how this applies in our scenario (pokemon) at all, especially since you're comparing "huge numbers of situations" to 22 usages. A win/loss heavily depends on team matchup, experience, hax, and other underlying effects rather than a simple heads or tails coin toss (which is used to describe the law of large numbers a lot). You can't count 22 as a large number in mathematics connotation (not even close in statistics and probability), and that would be an example of gambler's fallacy (since you seem to like this kind of stuff) - like someone before me posting about Zone's 70% win rate lol. So yeah, I don't think your argument with law, given that math is always true to itself and never changing but pokemon isn't (especially in ORAS, where any team and any player could beat any other team and player regardless of skill at times) applies here. If there's nothing more true than math, we should just move Magnezone and Reuniclus to S since both had higher win% than Clef.
The ladder is also horrible and I'm not sure I really followed your logic there. "On ladder there are tons of bad and good players so skill shouldn't make a difference, right?" (???)
Now that we're on it, I also wanted to point out that the sole game Mega Latias was used in during the semifinal, it was vs Mega Sableye, Talon, Clef, Hippo, Ferro, and Starmie, and it was the BoltBeam T-Wave set, which is completely useless against this team and not even the CM set we're talking about (and another example of mu coming into play).
Lastly, Mega Latias hasn't really failed to 'prove itself in huge number of ladder plays' for me - I'm actually quite satisfied with how it performs a lot (not all) of the time, as I'm sure others do too, and I don't think that's a solid enough statement for it to drop. So if you think it should drop, please stay away from stuff like raw math that's taken out of context w/o replays/evidence and stick to Mega Latias' true cons, which is the only way the vr team will drop it in the first place. That's as much as I'll say on that.
TBH I've never been a Klefki fan at all, but I don't think it would fit in B+ with the other mons in there. I never find it hard to spin/defog after hazards (although it's good paired with Bish), and it's frailer than I'd want a steel/fairy type to be with all the hard hitters running around in the current meta. It either runs dual screens or status and it's good utility for offensive teams, but that's about it. You made good points for it to remain B, but I'd think if anything it's more likely to drop than rise, I just haven't used it at all to give enough support for either.
I do not understand where that dropping Klefki thing came from but it seems pretty silly o.O isn't B rank low enough for Klefki? I agree with ryan, Klefki is good and it in B- is exaggerated imo, some teams don't use hazard removal, making Spikes very deadly and it atleast checks Lati@s, the most common hazard removers, Prankster T-Wave is also cool since it paralyzes atleast 1 pokemon against offensive teams and deals with some other threats such as Mega Gardevoir, Mega Diancie and Weavile, Klefki seems scarier than pretty much everything in B- and good as most current B ranks so it should just stay there, i don't get why they want to drop Klefki even further than B o.o
You words are not gentel. You this makes people focus on presonal issues not topic of discusion. Don't do that, don't say "lol", " lmao" only to show disrespect to other's argument.
Math was used in thousands of situations, even more specyfic than pokemon. It is often used in ecomomics to predicst actions of consumers. If you think that pokemon creates special conditions that makes math "work in other way" I highly suggest you to write article about that. I'm sure you would become famous if you would discover anomaly that makes statistic useless.
There was like a lot of matches in WC, definitely over 160 teams were used. It's strangly unusual if mon which is as high in viablity rank as Mega Metagross, Mega Alakazam, Mega ZardY, Mega Gardevoir was used less and have less success. That's not sigh of something as viable as other megas.
Succesfull thing are attracting peoples. Everybody wants wins and use best stuff. If someone would loss to X mon we could expext reaction like "omg, that is so stron, it walled like 4/6 my mons, I want to use it". Why Mega Latias does not attract people in that way? Is this another anomaly? It's very unusual if one mon which is as viable as other has 4times less usage or more.
And I would love to see your replays of Mega Latais. Post them in topic or PM me.
basically this
i really feel like surf + psyshock mega lati is a worse megabro. especially since the latter gets scald and has huge physical bulk, and an immunity to critical hits for a calm mind sweeper isn't too shabby either. the point is that surf + psyshock is the main argument for latias to stay in A- looks like, but i fail to see how this set is better than CM megabro.
as for CM reflect type, well this set is shit for the simple fact that it's a mono-attacking set, which leaves you helplessly walled by the only S-rank (clefable), or you can run psyshock and get shitstomped by weavile and ttar
mega lati should drop to B+. also, suicune shouldn't rise lol, if anything it should drop too
This is something I brought up to the team. Its not super well fleshed out so grain of salt but here it is:
I think all the Megas in B+ are pretty bad and hard for me to call them much better than the ones in B. I think there's a discrepancy in effectiveness among A- megas (Mega Meta and Mega Hera being clearly better than Mega Latias and Gardevoir, for example). Idea would be to continue the philosophy that got us to the new rankings and essentially drop some stuff from B+ to B and subsequently from A- to B+. Would be mostly Mega evolutions in my estimation I don't see any other A- mons worth dropping though there could be a few B+.
Also I think Alomomola should definitely rise and I could see Zapdos in B as well. Rain mons should drop
I think all the Megas in B+ are pretty bad and hard for me to call them much better than the ones in B. I think there's a discrepancy in effectiveness among A- megas (Mega Meta and Mega Hera being clearly better than Mega Latias and Gardevoir, for example). Idea would be to continue the philosophy that got us to the new rankings and essentially drop some stuff from B+ to B and subsequently from A- to B+. Would be mostly Mega evolutions in my estimation I don't see any other A- mons worth dropping though there could be a few B+.
Also I think Alomomola should definitely rise and I could see Zapdos in B as well. Rain mons should drop
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
my only issue with that would be that it would mean normal latias and mega latias would be sharing a rank, though mega latias is so much more overall effective. Normal may not have the mega slot opportunity cost but its pretty hard to justify when its only major niche is healing wish. I would ask that normal latias drop to B too if this were to happen as its just really outclassed by latios.