Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[Of Moose & Men]

As someone who is actually currently working on another Trapping team, I can get behind Dugtrio rising. Especially now, with so many Diancie, Volcanion, Tyranitar, Heatran, etc., running around, it would make sense to go about making sure those Pokemon go down. Band Tar is a pain in the ass, and it can severely hinder your team as long as the opponent clicks the right move, AKA Pursuit 8 times out of 10. Guaranteeing the removal of those troublesome Pokemon is quite the feat and something that the other D Pokemon could only dream of. Dugtio is sadly underappreciated. Yes, it's got less defenses than a wet paper towel, and it doesn't hit tremendously hard, but it does indeed guarantee the removal of some high level, and fearsome Pokemon.

Dugtrio should absolutely move to C.

 

[squidlick]

Mega Slowbro A- to B+: Yes

Personally, I've never found the immunity to crits, increased physical bulk and Special Attack to be a worthwhile trade off for losing the Mega slot, Leftovers and Regenerator, the latter being something that benefits from Leftovers as well. Regular Bro's ability to handle physical attackers without needing the MeVo is priceless, and it pairs well with other Megas as well. Mega Bro in B+ would be indicative of its opportunity cost and I support it.

Mega Charizard Y A- to B+: Yes

More and more often I find that MegaZard Y is rather easily revenge killed. It looks scary on paper, but if you can get a revenger in safely, be it a Scarfer or naturally faster mon such as Mega Metagross or Latios, then it's probably going down. Factor in rocks and this becomes easier. And when you take into account the same-y teams bludz mentioned in the slate, planning ahead to deal with MegaZard Y becomes less straining.

Chansey B+ to A-: Yes

Here's a fact: if your strongest physical attacker is out and you have no anti-Chansey measures such as Knock Off or Taunt, you're screwed. Chansey isn't something you can disregard so easily lest you want to be walled six ways to Sunday. A- is a fine rank for it.

 

[ElectricMonkey]

Mega Latias A- -> A Yes

Mega Latias is a fantastic Pokemon is the meta rn. With key resistances to mons like Volcanion,Mega Zard Y,Thundurus,Keldeo,etc. it can take a lot of hits. Along with it's fanatastic typing and defensive stats Mega Latias is no slouch offensively with a huge 140 spatt with a ton of great coverage moves it can pack a punch. It even gets access to reliable recovery(2 actually).Being able to run Defog,CM,Boltbeam,Healing Wish, this thing can be unpredictable as well.
That's it for me for now, might come in later to discuss different drops/rises.

 

[diminom]

B+ -> A-: Disagree
Chansey is pretty much mandatory on stall right now, and has a very valuable niche as a pokemon that no other pokemon can do exactly. Chansey's titanic HP stat and access to eviolite pretty much makes her the premier check of many strong special attackers like Gardevoir, Zard-Y, and Volcanion, just to name a few, and not to mention Chansey's decent defensive stat when combined with her HP means that many physical attackers struggle to break past Chansey. Chansey is also a great cleric and has access to many useful moves like Wish, Heal Bell, and Thunder Wave. However, this being said, I do not think Chansey should rise. Both Charizard-Y and Volcanion have dropped in usage not to mention Mega Latias has gained usage which is a pokemon that Chansey struggles to compete with. Chansey is also indisputably one sided, and has many flaws, distinctly a lack of offensive presence which makes Chansey complete setup fodder. Many setup pokemon like Slowbro or Zard-X setup on Chansey depending on its moves. Not to mention pokemon like Heal Bell Altaria, Scizor, and Clefable will always setup on Chansey, regardless of its moves. Chansey also struggles to find a place on playstyles other than stall and it has horrible splashability, as Chansey more or less just sort of kills all momentum on a team with its lack of offensive presence. I mean ultimately why put this mon' on an offensive or balance team, when there are so many better options like Mega Latias or Jirachi, which have either have more offensive presence, the ability to setup, or a better typing. Chansey is also exceptionally weak to many stallbreakers like Talonflame, Gliscor, and struggles to beat many special wallbreakers/defensive mons' with taunt, leech seed, or other recovery moves like Gardevoir, Serperior, Venusaur, and Thundurus, which are pokemon that Chansey is normally supposed to check. There is also been an immense surge of more strong physical attackers and fighting typing in the tier, like Heracross, Medicham-Mega, and CB Tyranitar, plus pokemon like Keldeo have relatively stayed the same in usage for OU. Also Squidlick's argument of "if you lose your counters to this pokemon, you will lose" (not a direct quote) is a very stupid argument as not only is that true for every OU pokemon, but a smart player is not going to let their anti-chansey measure get weakened that easily, especially when you have a Chansey. Yes, by nature of the game and correct play their Chansey check will get weakened throughout the game, but those situations are so few and far between, when hard Chansey counters like Ferrothorn, Sableye and CM Clefable are so common that "Chansey will win if you disregard it" is not realistic reason to put Chansey in A-. Chansey is not a terrible pokemon, it has a solid niche as a defensive wall to many special attackers making it great on stall. Also Chansey does fare better than many other B+ pokemon like Mega Altaria, and Suicune and is a slight notch above the tier, however I believe A- is pushing the pokemon a bit too far, especially when it has all of these weakness, yes it is a staple of stall, but it literally fails at all other things.

A- -> B+: Agree
Although Zard is amazing in Doubles, I personally believe it just does not work that well in OU singles. The main reason for this is its crippling Stealth Rock weakness losing almost half its health whenever it switches in. This means you have to get a dedicated defogger/rapid spinner because you have to remove hazards every time before this pokemon comes in. This simply is just to much work for a wallbreaker especially when considering that to beat stall often times you need to make hard doubles with your pokemon to constantly get the advantage. You cannot make these predictions when you constantly have to defog or lose half you health on the switch in. This is a lot of effort that is just unnecessary when ultimately you can bring a pokemon like Mega Heracross which destroys stall even better than Zard without as many weakness and a similar speed tier. In a meta where many strong physical wallbreakers are rising, Zard cannot keep up. Also many checks and counters to zard are rising in usage, like Mega Latias and Mega Diancie. While I do not consider Charizard-Y to be a bad pokemon, I just think it is outclassed by many other wallbreakers which either have a better matchup against stall, a lack of stealth rock weakness, or an even matchup against balance.

----------------

Nominations I would like to bring up:

C+ -> B/B-
I have already brought this up before on page 5 and if I were to make a full post I would probably just be repeating myself but I would like to bring up and counteract many common arguments against Zapdos.

I don't know if everyone knows, but Zapdos is dong in OU and the only reason it's being hyped is that a lot of people peak high on the ladder with it being thrown on poorly built stall teams that take advantage of how bad the ladder is in general. That aside, it doesn't offer anything outstanding that other Pokemon can. There are much better hazard turnovers than it and considering hazard removal is a bit out of favor unless you're using something like Talonflame or Mega Pinsir. Tornadus and Mega Scizor have been popular forever and it was still dong, so there really isn't much you said that exemplifies anything about it aside from the rudimentary facts you listed. Zapdos is fine in C+.

.

While this argument has already been countered, I would like address again, as I believe it is a very common argument against Zapdos' viability as a pokemon because of the fact that Zapdos barely got into OU. So let's get this out of the way first, usage does have something to do with viability. While I do not believe that an entire argument or a pokemon's ranking in general should be based off of usage, usage generally means that a pokemon has a good niche and more people want to use that niche. Especially usage in the higher rankings like 1695 and 1825 (May, 2016), which are actually the the two ladder rankings which got Zapdos into OU as both of the other low ladder rankings did not even have a 3.41 usage for Zapdos. Yes pokemon like Conkeldurr and Sylveon were trash but were in OU, but those pokemon dropped because they were garbage. Also the only reason why Conk and Sylveon were in OU was because of the low ladder not the higher ladder.

Also while I do not have a direct quote from a player, even the Smogon page itself says "Even fully invested, Zapdos doesn't have the raw bulk to take strong, neutral STAB attacks from the likes of Latios, Talonflame, and Mega Lopunny.". Which is true, however Zapdos true niche comes from its typing. Zapdos has a unique defensive typing that gives it the ability to check many common steel types, flying types, and defog on many of them in the tier. This niche to check Scizor and Tornadus in particular is unrivaled and its access to a 125 SpA, toxic and twave makes it great on balance teams that do not want to kill too much momentum.

I am not trying to say that Zapdos is amazing or even that great. I personally believe its only really "okay or good" in the current metagame because of its weakness to rocks, inability to take a lot of neutral attacks, and its weakness to common OU pokemon like Diancie and Clefable. However, I do believe that Zapdos' niche defensive typing that is completely unique and its ability to check many common OU pokemon with its recovery, pressure/static and its other coverage moves makes C+ a very strange ranking for Zapdos.

 

[MANNAT]

if chomp rises it shouldnt be for the rocky helmet set. Lando-t is much bulkier after intimidate and better on most teams thanks to it checking sand and having a wide array of options from defensive sd to break clef, to u-turn to keep up momentum, hp ice to hit opposing lando/chomp, etc. Tank chomp is a one trick pony and all it really has over lando is resistance to rock and the ability to check bisharp. They really arent equal in viability imo.

No offense, but tankchomp isn't even the best set anymore lol. Offensive sets in general are better than tankchomp since they hop the omnipresent base 100 speed tier, surprise wallbreakers like kyub and mgarde that think they can kill the tankchomp, and can offer a great lead for HO with lo sd, lum sd (for msab-weak builds), chainchomp, and a ton of other, viable sets.

Also, about celebi; it has completely different roles than amoonguss or tangrowth, therefore it shouldn't be considered as such. Celebi has 3 main roles in the metagame, and none of them really conflict with amoonguss; a utility rocker, a stat boost passer, and a decent choice scarf user. I will mainly talk about the first two sets since I don't have as much experience with the scarf set personally, but I've been told good things about the scarf set by many. First of all, the utility rocker set offers a role compression of a mon that offers both rocks and healing wish support for a team, which can be very valuable to bulkier builds. Additionally, it can boost up with moves like sd and np and turn normally scary mons like scarf keld and sand rush drill into terrifying monsters that can OHKO a huge portion of the tier, which can be useful for many teams. Obviously Celebi isnt the best mon in the game, but it most certainly shouldn't drop below alomomola and dragalge lol.

 

[North Gate]

No offense, but tankchomp isn't even the best set anymore lol. Offensive sets in general are better than tankchomp since they hop the omnipresent base 100 speed tier, surprise wallbreakers like kyub and mgarde that think they can kill the tankchomp, and can offer a great lead for HO with lo sd, lum sd (for msab-weak builds), chainchomp, and a ton of other, viable sets.

Also, about celebi; it has completely different roles than amoonguss or tangrowth, therefore it shouldn't be considered as such. Celebi has 3 main roles in the metagame, and none of them really conflict with amoonguss; a utility rocker, a stat boost passer, and a decent choice scarf user. I will mainly talk about the first two sets since I don't have as much experience with the scarf set personally, but I've been told good things about the scarf set by many. First of all, the utility rocker set offers a role compression of a mon that offers both rocks and healing wish support for a team, which can be very valuable to bulkier builds. Additionally, it can boost up with moves like sd and np and turn normally scary mons like scarf keld and sand rush drill into terrifying monsters that can OHKO a huge portion of the tier, which can be useful for many teams. Obviously Celebi isnt the best mon in the game, but it most certainly shouldn't drop below alomomola and dragalge lol.

???

he clearly said tankchomp wasn't as good... and i agree on that sentiment. it's not as good as it used to be, usable but not really as usable. the surge in sand makes lando-t better in general as a defensive fat ground type. i agree with the idea of offensive chomp sets making it rise tho, although it really shouldn't imo

btw chary should drop sand usage fucks it, volc is good, all its builds are lazy and lose to the same shit, etc. it's not hard to grasp really, it's never been that great in oras.

chansey shouldn't rise lol. bandtar, terrak, etc are on the rise and all beat it easily, knock off is everywhere, etc. it's fine in b+ lol. the idea that 'it beats all special attackers' is nice and all but no moron would sack their chansey answer on a team primarily filled with special attacking mons

 

[Giagantic]

B+ -> A-: Disagree
Chansey is pretty much mandatory on stall right now, and has a very valuable niche as a pokemon that no other pokemon can do exactly. Chansey's titanic HP stat and access to eviolite pretty much makes her the premier check of many strong special attackers like Gardevoir, Zard-Y, and Volcanion, just to name a few, and not to mention Chansey's decent defensive stat when combined with her HP means that many physical attackers struggle to break past Chansey. Chansey is also a great cleric and has access to many useful moves like Wish, Heal Bell, and Thunder Wave. However, this being said, I do not think Chansey should rise. Both Charizard-Y and Volcanion have dropped in usage not to mention Mega Latias has gained usage which is a pokemon that Chansey struggles to compete with. Chansey is also indisputably one sided, and has many flaws, distinctly a lack of offensive presence which makes Chansey complete setup fodder. Many setup pokemon like Slowbro or Zard-X setup on Chansey depending on its moves. Not to mention pokemon like Heal Bell Altaria, Scizor, and Clefable will always setup on Chansey, regardless of its moves. Chansey also struggles to find a place on playstyles other than stall and it has horrible splashability, as Chansey more or less just sort of kills all momentum on a team with its lack of offensive presence. I mean ultimately why put this mon' on an offensive or balance team, when there are so many better options like Mega Latias or Jirachi, which have either have more offensive presence, the ability to setup, or a better typing. Chansey is also exceptionally weak to many stallbreakers like Talonflame, Gliscor, and struggles to beat many special wallbreakers/defensive mons' with taunt, leech seed, or other recovery moves like Gardevoir, Serperior, Venusaur, and Thundurus, which are pokemon that Chansey is normally supposed to check. There is also been an immense surge of more strong physical attackers and fighting typing in the tier, like Heracross, Medicham-Mega, and CB Tyranitar, plus pokemon like Keldeo have relatively stayed the same in usage for OU. Also Squidlick's argument of "if you lose your counters to this pokemon, you will lose" (not a direct quote) is a very stupid argument as not only is that true for every OU pokemon, but a smart player is not going to let their anti-chansey measure get weakened that easily, especially when you have a Chansey. Yes, by nature of the game and correct play their Chansey check will get weakened throughout the game, but those situations are so few and far between, when hard Chansey counters like Ferrothorn, Sableye and CM Clefable are so common that "Chansey will win if you disregard it" is not realistic reason to put Chansey in A-. Chansey is not a terrible pokemon, it has a solid niche as a defensive wall to many special attackers making it great on stall. Also Chansey does fare better than many other B+ pokemon like Mega Altaria, and Suicune and is a slight notch above the tier, however I believe A- is pushing the pokemon a bit too far, especially when it has all of these weakness, yes it is a staple of stall, but it literally fails at all other things.

A- -> B+: Agree
Although Zard is amazing in Doubles, I personally believe it just does not work that well in OU singles. The main reason for this is its crippling Stealth Rock weakness losing almost half its health whenever it switches in. This means you have to get a dedicated defogger/rapid spinner because you have to remove hazards every time before this pokemon comes in. This simply is just to much work for a wallbreaker especially when considering that to beat stall often times you need to make hard doubles with your pokemon to constantly get the advantage. You cannot make these predictions when you constantly have to defog or lose half you health on the switch in. This is a lot of effort that is just unnecessary when ultimately you can bring a pokemon like Mega Heracross which destroys stall even better than Zard without as many weakness and a similar speed tier. In a meta where many strong physical wallbreakers are rising, Zard cannot keep up. Also many checks and counters to zard are rising in usage, like Mega Latias and Mega Diancie. While I do not consider Charizard-Y to be a bad pokemon, I just think it is outclassed by many other wallbreakers which either have a better matchup against stall, a lack of stealth rock weakness, or an even matchup against balance.

----------------

Nominations I would like to bring up:

C+ -> B/B-
I have already brought this up before on page 5 and if I were to make a full post I would probably just be repeating myself but I would like to bring up and counteract many common arguments against Zapdos.

.

While this argument has already been countered, I would like address again, as I believe it is a very common argument against Zapdos' viability as a pokemon because of the fact that Zapdos barely got into OU. So let's get this out of the way first, usage does have something to do with viability. While I do not believe that an entire argument or a pokemon's ranking in general should be based off of usage, usage generally means that a pokemon has a good niche and more people want to use that niche. Especially usage in the higher rankings like 1695 and 1825 (May, 2016), which are actually the the two ladder rankings which got Zapdos into OU as both of the other low ladder rankings did not even have a 3.41 usage for Zapdos. Yes pokemon like Conkeldurr and Sylveon were trash but were in OU, but those pokemon dropped because they were garbage. Also the only reason why Conk and Sylveon were in OU was because of the low ladder not the higher ladder.

Also while I do not have a direct quote from a player, even the Smogon page itself says "Even fully invested, Zapdos doesn't have the raw bulk to take strong, neutral STAB attacks from the likes of Latios, Talonflame, and Mega Lopunny.". Which is true, however Zapdos true niche comes from its typing. Zapdos has a unique defensive typing that gives it the ability to check many common steel types, flying types, and defog on many of them in the tier. This niche to check Scizor and Tornadus in particular is unrivaled and its access to a 125 SpA, toxic and twave makes it great on balance teams that do not want to kill too much momentum.

I am not trying to say that Zapdos is amazing or even that great. I personally believe its only really "okay" in the current metagame because of its weakness to rocks, inability to take a lot of neutral attacks, and its weakness to common OU pokemon like Diancie and Clefable. However, I do believe that Zapdos' niche defensive typing that is completely unique and its ability to check many common OU pokemon with its recovery, pressure/static and its other coverage moves makes C+ a very strange ranking for Zapdos.

Okay, let me just say that there is literally zero reason to promo Zapdos from its current position, especially after the viability ranking shifts. The only reason that Zapdos was OU for a while during XY was namely to help deal with Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir in a period where the meta had not shifted in a way to accomodate these threats, otherwise, Zapdos would not have been OU from the get go. It is currently OU because of a combination of reasons that have already widely mentioned.

Now on to the present era, Zapdos literally has no reason for being in the tier much less B- / B, what does Zapdos do that makes it worthy of those spots when the pokemon within those ranks are vastly superior within the OU meta game. All you stated were statistical facts rather then proof that it deserves a better ranking, you didnt prove how it is good in OU basically. Both Mega-Scizor and Tornadus-t can easily just knock off the incoming Zapdos then switch scotch free leaving it there twiddling its thumbs at being fairly outclassed as an offensive and defensive pokemon with both Thundurus-I and Rotom-wash doing its job many times better. Please better explain why you think it should be ranked higher through examples of things it beats in an effective way. Don't just throw out a laundry list of points that only serve to prove what everyone already knows. What steel types does it beat, how does it effectively use Thunder Wave in a way that is superior to Clefable or in a way that separates it from Rotom-wash who can run T-wave + Wisp, etc.

 

[Bluemargay]

The point of Zapdos is that it checks things like Tornadus and Mega Scizor while also being able to defog and it does so without sacrificing offensive presence like Skarmory. Zapdos also is the only defogger that doesn't fear Bisharp because its 100 base speed allows it fire off a Heat Wave. On top of that, Zapdos actually deal with Spike setters like Klefki and Skarmory. Yes Thundurus takes them out, but they still got those spikes up.

And while I personally don't like Static Zapdos because it can't use Defog, Static is a nice secondary ability for punishing physical attackers. Thundurus and Rotom are both one-dimensional. (Scarf Rotom is bad), but Zapdos possesses the ability to be either offensive or defensive. If Generation 7 lets it use Static with Defog, look for it to be a major threat.

 

[in the hills]

Chansey B+ - -> A-: Agree. Chansey is a glue mon on stall obviously and with Goth gone there's no point using Bliss anymore. But everyone knows how well it performs on stall so I'll talk about something else; Chansey offense. Chansey offense teams are becoming increasingly prevalent in the meta and threaten other offenses and balance builds. Chansey can serve as a cleric, wish pass, spread Twave, and set up SR. No reason it should be in B

Mega Latias -A-->A Agree. Mega Latias is an incredibly good wall, and not much can break it with the Reflect Type set. It also has the access to Twave which makes it a great mon on slower offensive teams. Its CM set can set up on a number of mons and destroy entire teams. It's a great candidate for A rank.

Celebi -B-->C+ Disagree. Celebi is a decent mon atm and has a number of roles. With the access to SD, NP, and BP, along with nice bulk and speed it's pretty much the perfect Passer. It serves as a great Keldeo check and other special attackers. It doesn't require too much support either, and with Heal Bell it can provide its own support. With BP/U Turn it will always have opponents on their toes as well.

Another point I'd like to bring up for discussion is Skarmory -A-->A. It baffles me that this thing is a lower rank then Ferrothorn when it can do the same things and more. It sets Spikes and SR just like Ferro can, but it also can serve as a Defogger, a phaser with Whirlwind, blow back physical attackers with Counter, and a better check than Ferro to multiple mons because it's longevity with Roost. Ferro may be able to Leech Seed, but Grass types and Magic Bounce mons are more popular than ever. Skarmory walls just about every physical attacker better than Ferro, including Mega Lopunny, Bisharp, Weavile, Landorus-T, Excadrill and doesn't lose to Mega Scizor's Superpower. Skarmory really is a imposing mon in the meta which is why I think it should be risen to A.

 

[diminom]

Okay, let me just say that there is literally zero reason to promo Zapdos from its current position, especially after the viability ranking shifts. The only reason that Zapdos was OU for a while during XY was namely to help deal with Talonflame and Mega-Pinsir in a period where the meta had not shifted in a way to accomodate these threats, otherwise, Zapdos would not have been OU from the get go. It is currently OU because of a combination of reasons that have already widely mentioned.

Now on to the present era, Zapdos literally has no reason for being in the tier much less B- / B, what does Zapdos do that makes it worthy of those spots when the pokemon within those ranks are vastly superior within the OU meta game. All you stated were statistical facts rather then proof that it deserves a better ranking, you didnt prove how it is good in OU basically. Both Mega-Scizor and Tornadus-t can easily just knock off the incoming Zapdos then switch scotch free leaving it there twiddling its thumbs at being fairly outclassed as an offensive and defensive pokemon with both Thundurus-I and Rotom-wash doing its job many times better. Please better explain why you think it should be ranked higher through examples of things it beats in an effective way. Don't just throw out a laundry list of points that only serve to prove what everyone already knows. What steel types does it beat, how does it effectively use Thunder Wave in a way that is superior to Clefable or in a way that separates it from Rotom-wash who can run T-wave + Wisp, etc.

Your post makes no sense to me. To start off your post, you say that I did not provide any "proof" and I only gave statistical facts, which makes no sense because not only did I explain why the pokemon was good (in page 5, and this page, defog, only defensive mon like it with recovery, good offenses, check to Scizor and Tornadus as well as many other steel and flying types like Ferrothorn, Talonflame, and Mega Pinsir. just to summarize) but also your post says that somehow stating facts is a wrong way to nominate a pokemon. You tell me to be more specific yet you are not even specific in why stating facts is a bad thing, all you said was that it "wasn't proof" and that apparently "it was too obvious". This thread is just stating the obvious. Rotom-W does not have access to a reliable recovery and while it is very similar to Zapdos defensively, the roles of the two pokemon very widely differ with Rotom-W being a pivot and Zapdos being a defensive defogger. Thundurus is better than Zapdos offensively, but not defensively as again it does not have a reliable recovery. Also Zapdos has access to Defog. These are two very obvious points yet are essential for explaining why Zapdos is good an OU.

You even summarized my entire post as "you didnt prove how it is good in OU basically" which is completely subjective as you gave no reason why I did not provide how it was good in OU basically except for what in your opinion is "lack of proof". I guess I could have explained a bit more in depth but I even said in the post on this page I did not want to go in depth and that I just wanted to bring up some counter arguments against Zapdos not moving up. I mean in general, you post does not make much sense, how is the way I described Zapdos wrong? I stated why he was good, what niches he had, and what he did that is unique from any other pokemon in both posts. If anything Skarmory is closer to Zapdos than Rotom-W or Thundurus is. I am sorry if I did not explain in enough detail in my posts, but I do not see how your way of nominating pokemon is right, and my way of nominating is wrong.

To answer your main question and final question "What steel types does it beat, how does it effectively use Thunder Wave in a way that is superior to Clefable or in a way that separates it from Rotom-wash who can run T-wave + Wisp, etc.". Zapdos beats Bisharp because of its defenses, Ferrothorn because of Defog/Heat Wave, Scizor because of its typing and Heat Wave (and yes Scizor can U-Turn out, but Scizor can turn out against everything, plus if you really wanted to deter U-Turn/Knock you could always run Static), Jirachi because of Thunder Wave/Discharge, Skarmory because of its typing, Tornadus-T because of its typing, Talonflame because of its typing, and Mega Pinsir because of its typing. It does not use Thunder Wave more effectively than Clefable however Zapdos' niche is not thunder wave, it is checking Mega Pinsir, Torn, and Scizor with good offenses and a recovery. Thunder Wave and Discharge is just a benefit with Zapdos that stops many sweepers and cripples many defensive walls like Venu and Sableye.

 

[Giagantic]

Your post makes no sense to me. To start off your post, you say that I did not provide any "proof" and I only gave statistical facts, which makes no sense because not only did I explain why the pokemon was good (in page 5, and this page, defog, only defensive mon like it with recovery, good offenses, check to Scizor and Tornadus as well as many other steel and flying types like Ferrothorn, Talonflame, and Mega Pinsir. just to summarize) but also your post says that somehow stating facts is a wrong way to nominate a pokemon. You tell me to be more specific yet you are not even specific in why stating facts is a bad thing, all you said was that it "wasn't proof" and that apparently "it was too obvious". This thread is just stating the obvious. Rotom-W does not have access to a reliable recovery and while it is very similar to Zapdos defensively, the roles of the two pokemon very widely differ with Rotom-W being a pivot and Zapdos being a defensive defogger. Thundurus is better than Zapdos offensively, but not defensively as again it does not have a reliable recovery. Also Zapdos has access to Defog. These are two very obvious points yet are essential for explaining why Zapdos is good an OU.

You even summarized my entire post as "you didnt prove how it is good in OU basically" which is completely subjective as you gave no reason why I did not provide how it was good in OU basically except for what in your opinion is "lack of proof". I guess I could have explained a bit more in depth but I even said in the post on this page I did not want to go in depth and that I just wanted to bring up some counter arguments against Zapdos not moving up. I mean in general, you post does not make much sense, how is the way I described Zapdos wrong? I stated why he was good, what niches he had, and what he did that is unique from any other pokemon in both posts. If anything Skarmory is closer to Zapdos than Rotom-W or Thundurus is. I am sorry if I did not explain in enough detail in my posts, but I do not see how your way of nominating pokemon is right, and my way of nominating is wrong.

To answer your main question and final question "What steel types does it beat, how does it effectively use Thunder Wave in a way that is superior to Clefable or in a way that separates it from Rotom-wash who can run T-wave + Wisp, etc.". Zapdos beats Bisharp because of its defenses, Ferrothorn because of Defog/Heat Wave, Scizor because of its typing and Heat Wave (and yes Scizor can U-Turn out, but Scizor can turn out against everything, plus if you really wanted to deter U-Turn/Knock you could always run Static), Jirachi because of Thunder Wave/Discharge, Skarmory because of its typing, Tornadus-T because of its typing, Talonflame because of its typing, and Mega Pinsir because of its typing. It does not use Thunder Wave more effectively than Clefable however Zapdos' niche is not thunder wave, it is checking Mega Pinsir, Torn, and Scizor with good offenses and a recovery. Thunder Wave and Discharge is just a benefit with Zapdos that stops many sweepers and cripples many defensive walls like Venu and Sableye.

Sorry then let me try to explain it better, in what way does Zapdos stand out within the metagame, that was the entire purpose of my post. The Viability thread being a representation of what is strong within the current metagame means that we have to scrutinize the pokemon ranked based on multiple different levels from a simple pros and cons to its match ups to how it performs in actual games.

Zapdos has a vast number of issues even from a simple pros and cons perspective.

A. Zapdos being weak to SR means that if you use it as a defogger you will have to continually switch in to clear hazards taking 25% hp and potentially being one to 2hko'd by pokemon you'd otherwise wall. You may bring up other pokemon in exemplar to counter this point such as talonflame being 4x weak or Zard but ultimately we arent doing this within a vaccum and the offensive and defensive value brought by the aforementioned outdo Zapdos from a simple comparative perspective.

B. It has huge move pool issues, you mention that it can handle a vast array of pokemon but that is massively hindered by the simple fact that if defog you are basically out 2 moveslots already and must choose between stab, volt switch, heatwave or HP ice. And don't bother trying to argue for an offensive set as it is absolute outclssed by both forms of Thundurus.

How does the niche Zapdos have (Defog set + Pressure stall (aka Sub Zap)) earn it a rank beyond C+, because the way I see it, Zapdos is C+ because of the things you mentioned. Mega-Pinsir though threatening can be dealt with through a large number of OU pokemon which is why it has fallen so heavily since XY, Talonflame is also dealt with through a variety of different pokemon such as heatran, rotom-w, etc... All the examples you brought up have a wide variety of different checks / counters and yet these checks / counters arent limited by their flaws in the metagame and perform roles beyond what Zapdos can do. Heatran Sets up rocks / traps with magma storm and dismantles stall / etc - Rotom-wash is one of the best glues in the game and an excellent pivot and huge annoyance to a wide variety of pokemon. I could go on and on about how outclassed Zapdos is outside of its very minute niches which have earned it the rank of C+.

The prevalence of Tyranitar, Heatran, Latios, etc all deter Zapdos ontop of its own flaws.

A. Defog Set is SR weak and as a result a flaw set that is easily pressured into passivity due to its need to constantly roost, it lacks good coverage no matter how you try to accomodate it with other team members and that there are better hazard removers in ou plain in simple (latios, skarm, starmie, heck even excadrill).

B. Substall Zapdos is extremely niche and super hit and miss as it is extraordinarily passive and will simply face many unfavorable matchups,

I totally disagree on the nomination of Zapdos for any rank beyond C+ atm, I find it entirely justifiable for its existence there as it was B- before the reorganization of the tiers and naturally its shift downward fit.

 

[diminom]

Sorry then let me try to explain it better, in what way does Zapdos stand out within the metagame, that was the entire purpose of my post. The Viability thread being a representation of what is strong within the current metagame means that we have to scrutinize the pokemon ranked based on multiple different levels from a simple pros and cons to its match ups to how it performs in actual games.

Zapdos has a vast number of issues even from a simple pros and cons perspective.

A. Zapdos being weak to SR means that if you use it as a defogger you will have to continually switch in to clear hazards taking 25% hp and potentially being one to 2hko'd by pokemon you'd otherwise wall. You may bring up other pokemon in exemplar to counter this point such as talonflame being 4x weak or Zard but ultimately we arent doing this within a vaccum and the offensive and defensive value brought by the aforementioned outdo Zapdos from a simple comparative perspective.

B. It has huge move pool issues, you mention that it can handle a vast array of pokemon but that is massively hindered by the simple fact that if defog you are basically out 2 moveslots already and must choose between stab, volt switch, heatwave or HP ice. And don't bother trying to argue for an offensive set as it is absolute outclssed by both forms of Thundurus.

How does the niche Zapdos have (Defog set + Pressure stall (aka Sub Zap)) earn it a rank beyond C+, because the way I see it, Zapdos is C+ because of the things you mentioned. Mega-Pinsir though threatening can be dealt with through a large number of OU pokemon which is why it has fallen so heavily since XY, Talonflame is also dealt with through a variety of different pokemon such as heatran, rotom-w, etc... All the examples you brought up have a wide variety of different checks / counters and yet these checks / counters arent limited by their flaws in the metagame and perform roles beyond what Zapdos can do. Heatran Sets up rocks / traps with magma storm and dismantles stall / etc - Rotom-wash is one of the best glues in the game and an excellent pivot and huge annoyance to a wide variety of pokemon. I could go on and on about how outclassed Zapdos is outside of its very minute niches which have earned it the rank of C+.

The prevalence of Tyranitar, Heatran, Latios, etc all deter Zapdos ontop of its own flaws.

A. Defog Set is SR weak and as a result a flaw set that is easily pressured into passivity due to its need to constantly roost, it lacks good coverage no matter how you try to accomodate it with other team members and that there are better hazard removers in ou plain in simple (latios, skarm, starmie, heck even excadrill).

B. Substall Zapdos is extremely niche and super hit and miss as it is extraordinarily passive and will simply face many unfavorable matchups,

I totally disagree on the nomination of Zapdos for any rank beyond C+ atm, I find it entirely justifiable for its existence there as it was B- before the reorganization of the tiers and naturally its shift downward fit.

Alright it is pretty late my time, so this will be my final post about Zapdos today, but I would like to talk about a few things about your post.

I do not think that Zapdos is amazing. I understand that Zapdos has many flaws like its SR weakness as a Defogger, and competition for its niches. However while Zapdos does have flaws, it has many strengths to make up for a lot of those flaws. Not to mention B- is not a rank claiming to have the best pokemon in the metagame or even great ones at that.

PROS:
+ Access to Defog
+ Great Defensive Typing That Lets it Defensively Counter Many Pokemon like Scizor and Tornadus
+ One of the Few Pokemon in the Tier That Can Discourage U-Turn
+ Reliable Recovery Making it Better on Defensive Teams
+ Good Movepool
+ Good SpA When Compared to Similar Pokemon like Skarmory
+ No Fire Weakness Letting It Beat Birdspam Teams and Heat Wave Torn

CONS
- Stealth Rock Weakness
- Competition from Skarmory, Rotom on Balance, and Thundurus Offensively.
- Smaller Niches Compared to Other OU Pokemon
- Struggle to Take a Lot Neutral Attackers from Wallbreakers
- Weakness to Clefable, Tyranitar, Diancie, and Latios which are very common.

No pokemon in the meta has the same niches as Zapdos. Yes Heatran is a good check to Talonflame and Scizor, but it cannot defog nor can it check Superpower Tornadus. Rotom-W checks many similar pokemon, but it does not a reliable recovery and defog. Skarmory also checks many similar pokemon but has a fire weakness, and does not apply as much offensive pressure and can often kill momentum. Don't get me wrong, if you need a check to Talonflame check but do not need a defogger use Heatran, as it does much better than Zapdos in that regard, however if you a need a Talonflame check and hazard control than Zapdos is much better.

 

[Ajwf]

But Zapdos doesn't discourage U-turn... It probably does the opposite, to be honest. A rock weak pokemon getting pressured is going to hate momentum, period.

Comparing Zapdos' Special Attack to skarm is ridiculous. Skarm runs physical moves and neither are powerful enough in their attacks to really warrant concern. Skarm's Counter is about the only move going to be a real threat if you don't have SE threat.

B+ -> A-: Disagree
Chansey is pretty much mandatory on stall right now, and has a very valuable niche as a pokemon that no other pokemon can do exactly. Chansey's titanic HP stat and access to eviolite pretty much makes her the premier check of many strong special attackers like Gardevoir, Zard-Y, and Volcanion, just to name a few, and not to mention Chansey's decent defensive stat when combined with her HP means that many physical attackers struggle to break past Chansey. Chansey is also a great cleric and has access to many useful moves like Wish, Heal Bell, and Thunder Wave. However, this being said, I do not think Chansey should rise. Both Charizard-Y and Volcanion have dropped in usage not to mention Mega Latias has gained usage which is a pokemon that Chansey struggles to compete with. Chansey is also indisputably one sided, and has many flaws, distinctly a lack of offensive presence which makes Chansey complete setup fodder. Many setup pokemon like Slowbro or Zard-X setup on Chansey depending on its moves. Not to mention pokemon like Heal Bell Altaria, Scizor, and Clefable will always setup on Chansey, regardless of its moves. Chansey also struggles to find a place on playstyles other than stall and it has horrible splashability, as Chansey more or less just sort of kills all momentum on a team with its lack of offensive presence. I mean ultimately why put this mon' on an offensive or balance team, when there are so many better options like Mega Latias or Jirachi, which have either have more offensive presence, the ability to setup, or a better typing. Chansey is also exceptionally weak to many stallbreakers like Talonflame, Gliscor, and struggles to beat many special wallbreakers/defensive mons' with taunt, leech seed, or other recovery moves like Gardevoir, Serperior, Venusaur, and Thundurus, which are pokemon that Chansey is normally supposed to check. There is also been an immense surge of more strong physical attackers and fighting typing in the tier, like Heracross, Medicham-Mega, and CB Tyranitar, plus pokemon like Keldeo have relatively stayed the same in usage for OU. Also Squidlick's argument of "if you lose your counters to this pokemon, you will lose" (not a direct quote) is a very stupid argument as not only is that true for every OU pokemon, but a smart player is not going to let their anti-chansey measure get weakened that easily, especially when you have a Chansey. Yes, by nature of the game and correct play their Chansey check will get weakened throughout the game, but those situations are so few and far between, when hard Chansey counters like Ferrothorn, Sableye and CM Clefable are so common that "Chansey will win if you disregard it" is not realistic reason to put Chansey in A-. Chansey is not a terrible pokemon, it has a solid niche as a defensive wall to many special attackers making it great on stall. Also Chansey does fare better than many other B+ pokemon like Mega Altaria, and Suicune and is a slight notch above the tier, however I believe A- is pushing the pokemon a bit too far, especially when it has all of these weakness, yes it is a staple of stall, but it literally fails at all other things.

So I don't know if you get this but if we were to take a mon's playrate on a stylistic team, Chansey would probably be found on 90% of stall teams. Probably a little more frequently than mega sable. It is an ABSOLUTE staple to stall, and the little misconstruing of Squidlick's comment is funny. If you lose your physical threat, Chansey is just not going to die. That's all there is to it. There might be one or two mons in the entire game below ubers that can take chansey from the special side without boosting themselves to +6. Plain and simple, chansey is flat out better at it's job than anything in the B+ range. An impassable defensive wall with recovery and cleric utility for the team.

Then you go into this long drawn out bullshit about all these physical threats that beat chansey. Who the hell cares? I don't remember enlisting chansey to counter Mega Heracross. I use chansey to support whatever takes on those and to wall off special ones. Chansey doesn't give a fuck if Medicham magically got 200 Attack on top of huge power. She was never going to take on that threat anyways. And clefable? ROFL even CM clefable just doesn't cut it.

With full invest:
+6 252 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 255-301 (39.7 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
With what I think most people take:
+6 0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 199-235 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 68% chance to 3HKO

Even at +6 clefable can't break chansey. And is clefable magically going to say "No chansey, don't wish/healbell/stoss/toxic/softboil"? No. How's it countering a cleric if the cleric is allowed to go about their life and heal things? Ferrothorn is annoying but in no way a counter. Gyro ball doesn't hurt, leech seeds only on for one or two turns, hazards suck but meh you expect it... Again, you're still getting heals through. The only mention of your counters I'd be reasonably scared of is MSable for his knock off.

Chansey is not a terrible, mediocre, average or good pokemon. It is the best, defacto numero uno special wall in OU. That's what it does. It doesn't get worn down because many blobs run softboil + wish instead of wish protect or toxic+stoss. It doesn't have to take physical threats. It doesn't have to worry about momentum because it is never chose to have momentum. You don't look at chansey and go "But if only I had u-turn!" because that's ridiculous. Chansey is head and shoulders above everything in B+. I don't see anything in B+ that is as important to a playstyle as chansey is to stall.

 

[Wings of Night]

Can we please get mega venusaur out of A-? I want this to drop mostly because of how bad it is compared to some better grass types in the tier and in general lol

I find it hard to justify on teams especially with tangrowth and Amoonguss being so splashable and overall better imo right now. It's also extremely bad at what it does. It's easily worn down with a scald burn from keldeo, wisp from rotom etc. which is kinda awful considering it has like one of the best potential typings to wall keldeo. The same cannot be said about amoonguss/tangrowth because they have a much better ability in regenerator thus they don't get worn down by rocks and scald burns as easily as venu does.
It's only reliable recovery move gets nerfed by both viable weathers so it can't even check rain very well either.
So yeah the biggest problem for venu and mostly the reason why I want this to drop is because it gets worn down way easier than it wants to which means it can't check stuff as easily as it would like to (looking at keldeo, mega diancie, electrics etc).

Imo it should drop at least to B+ because it isn't better and especially not as splashable as stuff like amoonguss or tangrowth (imo it's worse but eh) so I would personally drop it to B although that might seem a bit harsh.

 

[Ajwf]

MVenu does have the advantage of being a better tank (more attack, more bulk) and still being flat better at handling all forms of Azumarill. I think that it should stay in Amoongus' tier because the two of them represent the strengths the other lacks. I think Amoongus is B+ right now so the drop would make sense.

 

[false]

WARNING: Incredibly long-winded Nedor-length post incoming. Sorry it's so long, I just started talking about a few of the mons, and I ended up here :>

I'm genuinely not feeling this rise. As much of an amazing Pokemon Mega Latias is, comprising great role compression, bulk, speed, and utility options, it just doesn't warrant A rank. I initially didn't mind the rise after looking over the A rank, seeing Pokemon such as Manaphy, Mega Lopunny, Azumarill, and Talonflame and thinking to myself 'These Pokemon are all Pokemon you have to account for when building a team, similarly to how you must account for Mega Latias when building a team. However, a look at the Pokemon that currently reside in the A- tier, and the likes of; Bisharp, Mega Gardevoir, Mega Slowbro, Serperior, and Thundurus are all arguably just as metagame defining, and just as neccesary to prepare for when building, so I looked to go a different route to validate my opinion.

After a fair bit of searching, I really couldn't find anything that grounded my opinion, and as such I just can't advocate a rise here.

As much as this pains me because I really do hate Chansey a lot, this thing most definitely deserves a rise. Chansey is almost a necessity on most stall builds just due to the sheer number of roles of which it can perform. Chansey has the ability to perform as an effective; Stealth Rock setter, cleric, and Wish passer even all at the same time if one so chooses. Chansey does all of this, whilst simultaneously walling half the metagame without breaking a sweat, comfortably handling some of the biggest threats to stall such as Kyurem-B, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Diancie, and Volcanion. No other Pokemon could dream of providing not only the utility, but the role compression that Chansey provides for a stall team, and such it definitely deserves the rise to A-.

In theory, with the right matchup, and with the right moveset, Volcarona is easily one of the most threatening Pokemon in the entire tier. I don't think words can really do justice as to just how devastating Volcarona can be if you're not packing something along the lines of; Talonflame, Heatran, or Chansey.

However, Volcarona in practice rarely seems to play out as well as Volcarona does in theory. A low physical Defense leaves it easily susceptible to being revenge killed by the likes of Sand Rush Excadrill, Aqua Jet, Brave Bird, ExtremeSpeed, Fake Out etc etc. and it often also struggles to find setup opportunities given its crippling weakness to Stealth Rock, combined with weaknesses to common types like Flying and Water.

However, even considering all that, I think Volcarona just deserved B+ considering the other Pokemon that sit in that tier. Stuff like Mega Altaria is arguable comparable to Volcarona as a matchup dependent Pokemon that in certain matchups has the ability to simply win from preview, whilst in other matches it will struggle to pull its own weight. I have no problem having Volcarona in B+, and I support the rise.

As an avid Slowking user over recent times, I love this mon and definitely feel it deserves a rise. To all the people that always say 'You can EV a Slowbro to do the same thing as Slowking' that just flat out isn't true, Slowbro ends 8 EVs short of matching Slowking's spread.

In the current metagame, Slowking deals with so many Pokemon that would otherwise be threatening to the balance builds that it finds itself on, such as; Keldeo, Meta Metagross, Clefable, Volcanion, Tornadus-T, and Mega Diancie to name a few, and Calm Mind allows it to act as a solid wincon. Taking the pressure off of your offensive core to do all the breaking is nice support from a defensive Pokemon, and the way Slowking can simply throw out Scalds, to burn would be counters such as Ferrothorn reminds me of the way Clefable 'beats' Pokemon by throwing out Thunder Waves until it just wins.

In short, Slowking is able to act as a wincon, but also a reliable pivot into many common attacker that threaten the standard balance builds that Slowking usually ends up on. A number of positive attribute such as Regenerator, Scald, and Calm Mind allow Slowking to pull its weight in all different sorts of matchups, and I think definitely deserves a rise.

Togekiss has had a really strange progression over recent times. It started off as basically an irrelevant mon which some people used to flinch people on the ladder for fun. Then it kinda transitioned into this amazing stallbreaker that seemed to spike a bit in popularity after it was showcased in njnp's How To Beat Stall RMT. Then, slowly, bulkier teams adapted to it, utilising Pokemon such as Doublade, SpD Unaware Clefable, Fast Heatran, SpD Skarmory, Scarf Jirachi, and an Choice Band Tyranitar all of which are major issues for Togekiss.

Togekiss is now finally settling back down as a Pokemon with a small, yet effective niche as a bulky balance/stallbreaker that can also check some Grass-types such as Serperior and Breloom pretty effectively. It doesn't bring much more, and can be pretty situational. I think the drop is warranted here.

To be honest I just don't like Celebi very much. It is, in my opinion, one of the most matchup dependent Pokemon in the entirety of ORAS OU, plus it never seems to work for me when I use it, so I just don't like it. The glaring issue with Celebi is plain to see just by looking at it; Celebi has 7 weaknesses. This would be more forgivable if they were to some less potent offensive types, but when you have a weakness to Dark, Fire, Flying and Ice there's going to be some issues.

Honestly there's not a whole lot further to go into detail with Celebi, it's really as simple as this:

If there are only 1 or maybe 2 Pokemon on the opposing team that pressures Celebi, it will likely be able to perform its role effectively, and will be worth the opportunity cost. If not, its bulk will be severely undermined by the slew of common weaknesses it possesses, not to mention the rise in Pokemon like Choice Band Tyranitar making it a target for Pursuit trapping. I think Celebi's drop is warranted here.

I was honestly pretty surprised to see this get nommed for a rise because every single time I bring up the fact that I think Zapdos is actually an ok Pokemon, I immediately get hit with 'Oh yeah right a Defogger that's weak to Stealth Rock, thats so dumb'.

In my honest opinion I think Zapdos gets a bit too much hate, when in reality it's a pretty reliable Pokemon at the job it does. Zapdos possesses pretty decent bulk, and defensive typing which together culminate to allow Zapdos to check a wide range of Flying- and Steel-type Pokemon in the current metagame. Moveset options such as Heat Wave, Discharge, and Volt Switch combined with above average Speed for a defensive Pokemon allow Zapdos to further perform this role by sniping Steel-types such as Mega Scizor, Ferrothorn, with Discharge being a particularly interesting STAB choice when considering many common switchins to Zapdos such as Latios do not appreciate being paralysed upon switchin.

Whilst Zapdos cannot reliably remove hazards in the face of some hazard setters such as Hippowdon, others such as Heatran and Landorus-T can be worn down via repeated switchins to hazards and attacks to the point where Zapdos will often outlast them, in part thanks to reliable recovery, and will simply be able to Defog at a later stage in the game.

As much as Zapdos shouldn't be the first choice for a Defogger as there are better choices out there, it definitely holds its own niche with reliable recovery and a bunch of cool attacking options, and I thik deserves a rise.

This is an interesting prospect for me to comment on. On one hand, I'm almost obsessive when it comes to trapping, and I have an unhealthy reliance on things like Tyranitar, Magnezone, Weavile etc etc. whenever I end up building, and I absolutely love using Dugtrio. Dugtrio is an interesting Pokemon in that it performs almost entirely differently depending on set and situation. Without Stealth Rock present, Focus Sash Dugtrio can be used to simply target and remove some of the biggest threats to common balance builds, Pokemon such as Kyurem-B, Heatran, Mega Diancie, Volcarona, Tyranitar etc. Endure + Custap variants can function more effectively without hazard support, and can even trap faster Pokemon such as Mega Lopunny, Mega Manectric, +1 Zard X, Scarf Jirachi, and Sand Rush Excadrill, however they may struggle to find switchin opportunities outside of momentum moves, or sacks, and as such also require a form of support to get on to the field, albeit different. Other sets such as CB function in a similar way to Endure + Custap, and are able to trap a larger range of targets once brought onto the field at the cost of having very limited switchin opportunities.

The question as to whether you believe Dugtrio should rise or not ultimately comes down to whether you believe the opportunity cost of Dugtrio is a net negative, and therefore means that Dugtrio is doing its job either trapping the Pokemon it has targeted down, or affecting the way the opponent plays in such a way that Dugtrio is not the waste of a team slot. I believe that, by and large, Dugtrio is worth the team slot, has an effect on enough games to warrant usage, and is therefore also deserving of a rise.

I'm honestly pretty torn about Zard Y, because whilst I 100% agree that Zard Y builds are often linear, and can end up being weak to the same things over and over again, Zard Y is just such an insane threat that I'm not sure you can drop it.

The B+ Rank is a pretty strange spot for me. I feel like Zard Y is much much better than the likes of; Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Altaria, Gengar, and Mew, however I also feel like Zard Y isn't much different in effectiveness to the likes of Kyurem-B and Mega Manectric, who I think are absolute standouts in the B+ rank, and are worlds apart from the rest of that subranking.

I think the main thing I gathered from this was the fact that for now I'm happy where Zard Y is. I think a Pokemon of its caliber that has to be prapared for every time you build has to be valued at a level above more matchup reliant Pokemon such as Mega Altaria. There are few Pokemon you must prepare for the same way you have to do with Zard Y. The commonality of a Pursuit trapper paired with Zard Y also makes it so you can't just slap on a Latios and assume your team will be solid against it. I think this teambuilding restriction warrants its place in A-. However I'm fully of the belief that both Kyurem-B and Mega Manectric should rise to the A- rank, and are clearly overshadowing all the other Pokemon that sit in that subrank.

Sigh, Mega Slowbro is one of those Pokemon that, again, seems so good in preview, but then you get it into a game, and a variety of factors just prevent it from doing its job the way it was intended.

One of the biggest issues I have with Mega Slowbro is just how much the lack of Regenerator, and passive Leftovers recover hurts it. Mega Slowbro is so quickly worn down via hazards that it almost seems unreal, yet at the same time, unlike Slowbro, switching out doesn't get you anywhere. Mega Slowbro is so slow, that you're always almost forced to stay above ~60% if you want to have any chance of living 2 hits before being given the chance to recover, God forbid that Slowbro is statused, or hazards are up, because that only further limits Slowbro's staying potential.

One thing I distinctly remember one game I played against a Mega Slowbro where I beat it almost single handedly with a Rotom. I burned it, and then proceeded to keep Volt Switching out again and again, Pain Splitting away a large amount of health, and healing up my Rotom every time it started to become weakened. I eventually stalled him out of recovery and won, and I was almost unimpressed by just how easy it had been to beat Slowbro when it seemed like it'd be a tough fight from preview.

I think Mega Slowbro is just simply not as good as regular Slowbro. The reason Slowbro is even as good as it is is in big part to passive recovery combined with Regenerator, allowing Slowbro to simply switch out, and bring itself back in, and healthier for the next time it is needed. This not only conserves recovery PP, but also momentum, and in general will leave Slowbro in a more favourable situation that Mega Slowbro more times than not.

I feel like I've been saying this for ages, but Dragalge lowkey sucks, so I'm definitely supporting a drop here. Dragalge is a Pokemon that seemingly wants to be bulky, but is worn down by all sorts of passive damage, has no recovery, and really is only given a few switchin opportunities before its being used as sack fodder.

Again, similar to the case with Mega Slowbro, one of the biggest problem with Dragalge is how slow it is. Low Speed means you're almost always having to take an attack to deal one, and considering Dragalge is supposed to check powerful special attackers such as Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo, no matter how bulky you are, you're not going to be able to take too many attacks from powerhouses such as those without being severely worn down.

Combine this all with the fact that Toxic Spikes just aren't that good right now, and I just don't think Dragalge is a good Pokemon at all, and I'm definitely supporting a drop here.

 

[kingmickey27]

WARNING: Incredibly long-winded Nedor-length post incoming. Sorry it's so long,

To be honest I just don't like Celebi very much. It is, in my opinion, one of the most matchup dependent Pokemon in the entirety of ORAS OU, plus it never seems to work for me when I use it, so I just don't like it. The glaring issue with Celebi is plain to see just by looking at it; Celebi has 7 weaknesses. This would be more forgivable if they were to some less potent offensive types, but when you have a weakness to Dark, Fire, Flying and Ice there's going to be some issues.

Honestly there's not a whole lot further to go into detail with Celebi, it's really as simple as this:

If there are only 1 or maybe 2 Pokemon on the opposing team that pressures Celebi, it will likely be able to perform its role effectively, and will be worth the opportunity cost. If not, its bulk will be severely undermined by the slew of common weaknesses it possesses, not to mention the rise in Pokemon like Choice Band Tyranitar making it a target for Pursuit trapping. I think Celebi's drop is warranted here.

NotFalse While I agree with most of your post in general, I do want to point out something important that I think a lot of people have been missing. Celebi's access to Baton Pass (and I guess technically Healing Wish) actually enables it to escape Pursuit and switch into something that can take advantage of a Tyranitar locked into that move, like Terrakion or Heracross which is why it forms a very nice core with either.

 

[dream light]

kingmickey27 i'll agree that in principle you can bp out into x fighting type that resists pursuit but i can't imagine a ton of competent players will read celebi to hard out when it has bp so yeah it can't be pursuit trapped but it's not as though lots of teams enjoy coming in on banded crunch / edge / superpower or ice punch. both rak and heracross which you mentioned are at least 3hkod after rocks by crunch and edge which is hugely detrimental in the case of heracross which depends on its bulk to be useful against offense. chances are if you're using celebi that its your primary water resist and bandtar is almost always paired with keld so the bandtar user can just read that celebi = keldeo counter therefore a forced bp is coming and the bandtar user can nail the appropriate mon with its coverage, and even if it doesn't it's not like band crunch is a waste of a turn. honestly this is ignoring that celebi is really not great at checking the mons it's supposed to anyway because it's supposedly an exca check with a physdef spread but orb exca needs one flinch to blow by it if it's even at full health and keldeo only needs 20 + rocks before specs hydro is going past it if it's running a physdef spread. if it's not running physdef then mega lopunny and exca are just going to blow right by.

so yeah, i think that the bp point is really not that much in celebi's favor when it has to recover off sr damage constantly preventing it from racking up sr damage on its switchins and letting them in for free

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't pursuit still catch them if they U-Turn or BP before they Pursuit? I'm pretty sure if Celebi is faster in this situation, it still takes the pursuit, I'm quite sure it's happened before. So, Celebi will have to be very slow to BP out of there without taking an 80 BP, Super Effective, STAB, CB boosted, Pursuit. Provided, it's even Pursuit in the first place. So you'd have to be slower and they have to pursuit in order for that scenario to play out. And it's not like even a 40 BP Pursuit wont do a shit ton as it is. With TTar as stupidly common as it is, I don't see that as worth it. There's honestly better Keldeo checks and counters out there, and having something be weak to easily one of the more common Pokemon in the tier right now is just not worth it. As much as I like Celebi, it just is not very good right now.

 

[Martin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't pursuit still catch them if they U-Turn or BP before they Pursuit? I'm pretty sure if Celebi is faster in this situation, it still takes the pursuit, I'm quite sure it's happened before. So, Celebi will have to be very slow to BP out of there without taking an 80 BP, Super Effective, STAB, CB boosted, Pursuit. Provided, it's even Pursuit in the first place. So you'd have to be slower and they have to pursuit in order for that scenario to play out. And it's not like even a 40 BP Pursuit wont do a shit ton as it is. With TTar as stupidly common as it is, I don't see that as worth it. There's honestly better Keldeo checks and counters out there, and having something be weak to easily one of the more common Pokemon in the tier right now is just not worth it. As much as I like Celebi, it just is not very good right now.

Pursuit catches U-Turn and Volt Switch but not Baton Pass

 

[adamant excadrill]

I agree on mega latias moving to A rank. Amazing mon on balance right now as well as being very hard to take out no matter if you have checks and counters to it. Very hard to pursuit trap since it wins 1v1 with reflect type/t ways and roost recovery even though CB tar is right now the way to go. Bisharp cont trap it and scarf tar cant trap it very well either

And with celebi I dont agree high it moving to C+. It has a niche of being able to blanket check keldeo while being able to not be trapped by scarf tar as well as be an alright sand check a blanket check to rotom wash a lot of grass types as well as a lot of ground types and can set up rocks and win 1v1 against a lot of the hazard removers except skarmory (survives latios LO Dracstand clicks recover starmie cant do much to it and celebi uses recover and excadrill kinda loses 1v1 sometimes depending on item and spread on celebi

And with celebi I dont agree high it moving to C+. It has a niche of being able to blanket check keldeo while being able to not be trapped by scarf tar as well as be an alright sand check a blanket check to rotom wash a lot of grass types as well as a lot of ground types and can set up rocks and win 1v1 against a lot of the hazard removers except skarmory (survives latios LO Dracstand clicks recover starmie cant do much to it and celebi uses recover and excadrill kinda loses 1v1 sometimes depending on item and spread on celebi

Also sorry for my bad spelling im on my phone in school in graderoom so its hard to spell correctly since my phone keyboard is small

 

[UBERPYRO]

The argument that "defoggers that are weak to SR are bad" is invalid in most circumstances. It's usually not too difficult to identify the opponent's hazard setter, so you can bring Zapdos in on the setter before it sets up SR. If there is ever a situation where a setter beats a defogger and can thus get rocks up without the defogger coming in, then the defogger can never remove hazards regardless of if its weak to SR or not because the SR setter can always switch back in.

Personally I like Zapdos because Heat Wave allows it to force out pokemon like Ferrothorn, its ability of pressure (I believe) causes SR to loose PP twice as fast allowing it to pp hazard stall slower setters, and it's the most solid Torn-T counter in the history of forever.

 

[Subject 18]

Hi. A little thing about posting etiquette that somehow is still not understood by people. If you can't post and discuss shit like an adult, don't post at all. I'm not sure why people find it necessary to insult people and talk down to them as if you are somehow entitled to do. If I have to see another post saying anything like this:

This is actually fucking monkey testicle ebola. You're entitled to disliking a mon just cuz you're shitty at playing but don't use it as a basis for it dropping into a shit rank. Learn to use it or get out.

I will not only delete your post, but I will hand out an infraction. This shouldn't still be a thing, not here, not during suspect testing, no where at all. I don't want to see. if you can't follow this simple rule, don't post here at all. It's not that hard.

Peace.

 

[Subject 18]

giovanidude, I don't care if it's the internet or not. If you really think that acting like a 13 year old edgelord on the internet is cool, then I've got news for you. It's not a matter of being on the internet or not, its a matter of respect. I didn't see any single reason to say what was said, therefore it's unwarranted. Now stop trying to be funny or fish for likes, and staying on topic. I shouldn't even be addressing this, but whatever.. My posting here doesn't mean things get derailed, if you want to argue with me about this, pm me.

 

[Icing On Da Cake]

arena trap + its stab + speed alone makes duggy deserve a rise to C as its really nice to trap stuff like heatran and mega diancie for stuff like birds, volcarona, latis, and more.
Custap is nice for revenging frail, fast stuff like mega lopunny and mega alakazam, band actually has some good power with eq, and sash does allow duggy to switch into stuff without sacking something else, so it can use a few items effectively. C is fine

no this thing isn't an inferior slowbro imo. checking latis, tornt, volcanion, and mega gardevoir + more are some great things it has over bro, cm is nice to make it stronger + it makes its special bulk insane, so it can check stuff even better, and np + tr is still a cool set it can use to sweep late game B+ is cool for this

yeah this thing is kinda ass imo. draco does a fuckload to many things except to bulky resists and some of its resistances and its special bulk are good, but this thing is painfully slow, requires a lot of prediction to use unless you just want to invite steels in for free, has some painful weaknesses to ice, ground, and psychic, and tspikes aren't THAT amazing anyway (cool, but not amazing. at all.) a drop to C+ works

while this can work as an incredibly bulky wincon, it faces competition with reg slowbro, suicune, slowking, CLEFABLE THE GOD, reuniclus and other bulky cm users (all free mega slot and have access to lefties), easy af to wear down w/o regen and lefties (even with slack off/rest), hazards are a bitch to deal with, and shit like band ttar and lo tornt are everywhere, so it constantly takes l's while trying to set up B+ is fine

fuck the rest of the slate