ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread

Trinitrotoluene · Jan 9, 2015

Haunter and the OU Mod team approved of my taking over this thread from Laurel.

Image by Andrew
Credit to PK Gaming for the format

Welcome to the official OU Viability Rankings topic. You should know the drill by now; In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." In this thread, you're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. This thread and the one in the Victory Road subforum will be using the same rankings, with the updates being posted first here. Posts in both threads will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

The general idea of the topic is to rank each OU pokemon under "rankings" that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together. There won't be any segregation between offense & defense threats.

EX: Mega Metagross can be ranked in the S tier as an offensive threat, Ferrothorn can be ranked in the A tier as a supportive threat, and Clefable can be ranked in the A+ tier as a defensive threat. These are just examples.

Finally, here are the people that have the final say on what gets moved in the ranking list (as in, the people that gather the community's input to make final decisions, as well as being well informed players themselves):

Below are the definitions of each rank, and they should be read be anyone that wants to participate in the discussion of Pokemon's ranks in OU:

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are the pinnacle of the OU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles very effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These Pokemon define the metagame.

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

Here is the list of Pokemon that should be the focus of discussion for the next days:

Manaphy from A ---> A-
Tornadus-T from A- ---> A
Dragonite from B+ ---> A-
Kingdra from B+ ---> A-
Mew from B+ ---> A-
Mega Beedrill from B+ ---> B
Mega Sceptile from B+ ---> B
Volcarona from B ---> B+
Togekiss from B ---> B+
Victini from B ---> B+
Mega Ampharos from C+ ---> C
Slowking from C ---> B-
Mienshao from C ---> D
Anything else.

ORAS OU Ranking Tier List

All threats are alphabetized.

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the OU metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits.

Keldeo

Metagross (Mega)

Sableye (Mega)

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.

A+ Rank

Gengar

Latios

Thundurus

A Rank

Celebi

Latias

Venusaur (Mega)

A- Rank

Tornadus-Therian

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.

B+ Rank

Klefki

Mew

Raikou

Skarmory

Starmie

Tentacruel

Terrakion

B Rank

Scizor

Weavile

B- Rank

Azelf

Zapdos

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the OU metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

C+ Rank

Wobbuffet

C Rank

Ditto

Entei

Goodra

Porygon2

Reuniclus

Thundurus-Therian

C- Rank

Espeon

Gourgeist-Small

Gourgeist-Super

Zygarde

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

Arcanine

Cacturne

Chandelure

Cloyster

Flygon

Froslass

Gorebyss

Meloetta

Salamence

Venomoth

Whimsicott

''CONCLUSION REACHED'' POKEMON: Pokemon in this list have reached a conclusive ideal ranking, so unless the metagame changes towards them or there is something about them that hasn't been said, discussion about them is disallowed.

Flygon

BLACKLISTED POKEMON: Pokemon that are not only unviable in OU, but also make the thread shitty whenever they are brought up because most people that argue about them getting ranked are inexperienced players using bad arguments.

Darmanitan
Donphan
Florges
Heliolisk
Jolteon

Rules

Post intelligently. Posts like "I think pokemon X should be in this tier" will not be tolerated.
No flaming.
Usage statistics may be used to support an argument or a claim, but don't base your ENTIRE argument around them. For example, you can't just say "Pokemon X shouldn't be this tier because they aren't used that often!"
No talk about editing the OFFICIAL Smogon tier lists.
PK Gaming is amazing. This is an undisputed fact.

Happy posting ♪♪

Trinitrotoluene · Jan 10, 2015

first off, thank you TRC for posting this nice n clean ranking update from the viability ranking team :]. to prevent a case of triple posting, i'll post some of my own thoughts regarding mons that should go up / down at the bottom of this post.

for reference, here's the update:

TRC said:
Update time :]. I'll put a little tag to Trinitrotoluene so he can update his corresponding VR thread.

Latios: S ---> A+
Thundurus: S ---> A+
Mega Sableye: A+ ---> S
Mega Lopunny: A+ ---> S
Mega Gallade: A+ ---> A
Manaphy: A- ---> A
Mew: remains in B+
Gliscor: A- ---> B+
Mega Beedrill: B ---> B+
Mega Tyranitar: B ---> B-
Mega Latios: B ---> B-
Conkeldurr: B- ---> B
Bronzong: C ---> C+
Chandelure: C ---> D
Dragalge: C ---> C+
Espeon: remains in C
Froslass: C ---> D
Lanturn: C ---> C-
Smeargle: C ---> C-
Tentacruel: C ---> B
Mega Absol: C- ---> C
Mega Pidgeot: C- ---> C+
Volcarona: C- ---> B-
Mega Audino: D ---> Unranked
Mega Steelix: D ---> Unranked
Confagrigus: D ---> C-
Flygon: remains in D (see Tokyo Tom's recent post, it's fine in D rank though it's obviously not going any higher)
Dugtrio: D ---> C-
Jellicent: D ---> Unranked
Heracross: D ---> C
Hydreigon: D ---> B-
Whimsicott: D ---> C-
Blissey: remains in C- for now (not losing to Knock Off Landorus and Gengar is huge for stall teams, plus it fares better against fast paced teams because it's not as easy to wear down with double switches and VoltTurn strategies, like pivoting into Rotom-W as a simple example, but it would only move after the Greninja ban)
Metagross: D ---> Unranked
Gourgeist-XL: Unranked ---> C
Reuniclus: Unranked ---> D
Serperior: Unranked ---> C+ (an average of the voted initial ranking for it, subject to change)

Reasoning for a lot of the Pokemon have been explained by members of the viability ranking council throughout the thread. If it's difficult to find corresponding posts, send me a VM and I'll fetch them for you, and if you want me or AM to explain the reasoning behind a certain decision you think is questionable, highlight one of us and we'll be happy to explain it in the main thread.

Here is the reasoning ben gay posted, here mainly because I enjoy reading it so hopefully others will too :]

Latios: A+ completely agree with AM's reasoning in the main thread
Thundurus: A+ more bulkier teams have started popping up and thundy's speed tier isn't as exceptional as it was beginning oras when beating base 110 spe was huge compared to now.
M-Sableye: S redefines an entire playstyle and is a bit overcentralizing to say the least.
M-Lopunny: S it's a pain for offense, but also does considerable work against balance and stall with sub+pup/encore, pup+heal bell, healing wish, etc. has much more utility and offensive presence compared to most other megas in which it is truly deserving of S rank.
M-Gallade: A threatening especially with an sd, but lack of a good ability, diverse movepool, and having a good number of counters+checks to it forces it to switch out more often than not.
Manaphy: A- idk, i think A- fits this just fine actually. it requires optimal set up and a higher degree of support to perform its duty. sure it may be one of the best against defensive teams and is something they definitely should factor in when building, but that is as far as manaphy can take you and is kind of dead-weight against offense :/.
Mew: B+ stallbreaking set isn't terrible, just less effective (foul play and night shade are also viable over knock off) and mew has also taken on more offensive roles as a lure and set-up sweeper which i feel makes up for lost viability.
Gliscor: B+ agreeing with AM, leaning A- but by his logic then B+ makes more sense atm.
M-Beedrill: B+ BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE plus! :D
M-Swampert: B+ i know we went over this before, but looking at the influx of mons in B ranking now, i honestly think m-swampert is more deserving of B+ than B (it's in the same rank as megadoom and sharpedo lol). sure it is an opportunity cost as far as a mega for rain is concerned, but from what i've seen, there really is not much reason to run rain without it. the only rain teams i've seen in oras are ones with megapert and for good reason too. it's not even that much weaker compared to kabutops (15% pwr diff iirc) and the versatility and insane bulk outweigh that downside. one power up punch can sweep offense or wallbreak for something else to sweep, more than acceptable coverage, restalk (a set that actually highlights its substantial bulk while still providing offensive presence) are some of the greater traits that it possesses as a ss abuser.
M-Tyranitar: B- only reason to use this is for the dd set which isn't as good this meta since it is sort of outclassed as a dd sweeper bcs outsped by most scarfers after +1 and rkilled by mons with 135+ speed. has good power and coverage however.
M-Latios: B- not really much reason to use this at all when regular latis are more desirable options. a bit more bulk at the cost of power and being able to run a somewhat viable dd set is what its leaning onto.
Conkeldurr: B rather than telling me that this mon is just plain bad by cherry-picking the newer megas that check it (gallade,metagross,diancie,altaria) and wall it(sableye,slowbro), you can't possibly tell me that conk puts in less work in oras than it did in late xy. i asked people about this and they said most of their teams didn't have a good answer to this and that they were for the most part weak to it. i can say the exact same, since as i said before, while newer threats have been introduced, the metagame has shifted in conk's favor. unresisted coverage options in drain,p jab, ice p,k off with exceptional bulk w/ ass vest and above average attack is all the tools it needs to do damage against hyper/bulky offense and balance builds.
Bronzong: C+ checks/counters most of the relevant meta, especially newer megas. it's a viable tr setter too which is also cool ^>^.
Espeon: C baton piss is still aids sigh
Froslass: D faces competition as a spiker and new magic bouncers neutralize it, as well as lopunny.
Smeargle: C- see above.
Tentacruel: B one of the more reliable gren switch-ins and quite frankly has great utility in typing, bulk, and movepool.
M-Absol: C knock off+play rough being legal and sucker punch resists on the decline made it slightly better.
Mega Pidgeot: C+ people bicker about this a lot in the thread o_O, but yh agree with the majority since reliable hurricane's is its best selling point.
Volcarona: B- fire moth is so fking underrated it baffles me why it is still in C-. 1 qd can sweep almost any balanced team with a set of fire blast, bug buzz/hp ground and giga drain. mega altaria can't even effectively check it without roar or perish song since it does jack to it as +2 fire blast 2hkos it. running timid is better for scarf land-t but still hits like a fking truck and items like passho, lum, or sitrus help it set up/sweep.
Mega Audino: Unranked no reason to use this, outclassed by clefable and occupies a mega slot.
Mega Steelix: Unranked no reason to use this, outclassed by aggron and occupies a mega slot.
Lanturn: C-http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-check-post-2359.3521602/page-98#post-5952617 AM and Albacore's reasoning should suffice.
Dugtrio: C- getting rid of rocks and steels such as tran, ttar, meta, bish, diancie, exca, mag, rachi etc. let mons such as volc, pidgeot, zard exploit this and force the opponent to either forfeit their counter or lose considerable momentum trying to play around it. either way it's a win-win all bcs of duggy.
Heracross: C cb set and toxic orb+guts is a good wallbreaker, double edge/facade also 2hkos scarf land-t :O
Hydreigon: B- huge jump i know, but life orb set just demolishes balanced and bulky offense builds and can hold it's own against stall with superpower+flash cannon. scarfset is also pretty legit since it forces a lot of switches and can get momentum with uturn or nuke something. probs my bias tho, C+ i'm ok with since its defensive typing leaves a lot to be desired but i find it more useful than rest of C+ so yeah.
Dragalge: C+ specs set is a fking nuke, but draco plate is probably better since it bluffs a choice set and still hits pretty hard. defensive set with tspikes and dragon tail is also viable since its defensive typing is actually pretty good.
Jellicent: Unranked doesn't check any of the newer megas and is more often than not a liability, especially if they don't have a keld but even still is pressured by hp elec.
Chandelure: D was supposedly a good stallbreaker, but sableye beats it and new megas pose a bigger threat to it as well. zard-y has also fell out of grace.
Cofagrigus: C- defensive set lets it check the newer megas with wisp+mummy and provides nice utility in tspikes, haze, split etc. is also a pretty decent tr setter.
Whimsicott: C- loving that set you innovated alex :D, 8/10 as far as hipsterness goes.
Blissey: C- idk if this is worth using with gren still around, i'd rather use chansey for now. i'd bump blissey up to C after ninja is gone.
Metagross: Unranked no reason to use this over its mega.
Reuniclus: D shoutouts to tesung for making this relevant again :]. it is actually a pretty adequate cm sweeper haha. psyshock and focus blast offer it near-perfect coverage and is pretty effective if paired with another cm sweeper like clef. i'd nominate C- for it if it weren't for mega sableye and slowbro but D should be ok for it.
Gourgeist-Super: C walls and checks a fair amount in this meta and has semi-reliable recovery in synthesis, seen it several times and i can see it work. http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...check-post-2359.3521602/page-104#post-5963993 his first summary about it sounds reasonable enough to me.

Things that would appreciate discussion:

Clefable to S

Tornadus-T to A-

Serperior's initial rank

Volcarona

Anything else.

---
in addition to the mons that trc mentioned at the end of his post, another mon i feel that deserves a bit of discussion is empoleon. while i haven't used it as much as some other users here, i do know that empoleon's incredible water- / steel-typing and good special bulk makes it a great check / counter to many relevant pokemon in the current metagame, including but not limited to ~~greninja~~, latios, manaphy, non-earthquake (mega) gyarados, non-belly drum azumarill, and most swift swim sweepers not named mega swampert. it's also one of the few stealth rock setters the common defoggers / spinners cannot threaten. latios and starmie cannot effectively hurt empoleon without thunderbolt; meanwhile, empoleon can set rocks up on them or fish for burns with scald. also, empoleon's aforementioned traits offer it many opportunities to set up sr or remove it (remember, it does get defog!). as a result, i think empoleon should be moved up to b rank from b- rank. i'm sure some other users can present stronger cases and different angles for moving empoleon up, so i'll leave that to them! after all, i'm just trying to get discussion going here.

now, let's talk about a mon i have plenty of experience with: azelf. while the introduction of a few new mega evolutions (most notably mega lopunny, mega diancie, and mega sableye) might have hurt its ability to get rocks up at the beginning of the match, that still hasn't changed its insanely good match-up against almost every other lead out there. thanks to azelf's blistering base 115 speed, not many mons can reliably prevent azelf from getting rocks up turn 1. even scarfed leads such as landorus-therian cannot prevent sr from going up thanks to the fact that most azelf tend to use focus sash. against slower leads, azelf can simply taunt them to prevent sr from going up on azelf's side of the field. however, against more skilled opponents, who may come to expect taunt from azelf turn 1, azelf can mix things up and just go for rocks turn 1, using the offensive pressure (and anticipation of taunt, for lack of a better phrase) it creates to prevent sr from going up on its side of the field. quite literally, the only pokemon that can prevent azelf from setting up rocks regardless of its movepool are faster taunters, pranksters with taunt (read: thundurus, regular sableye), and fake out mega lopunny, all of which any competent player can work around.

also, thanks to azelf's relatively diverse movepool and the common expectation of it packing taunt, azelf gains a small degree of freedom in move options, which other suicide leads (aside from garchomp) lack. you know how most people assume that magic bouncers such as mega sableye and mega diancie beat azelf? skill swap (shoutouts to ox the box for this innovation) turns this on its head. afraid of steels switching in for free on your azelf? fire blast them back to the scrap heap. are defoggers about to give you a bad time? ~~slap~~ taunt them or explode so you can bring a teammate in that better deals with the mon in front of you. in fact, if azelf is on its last legs (e.g. azelf was knocked down to its focus sash), it can just explode and secure momentum for the rest of the team, which is extremely handy for the teams azelf is commonly seen on. when combined with its great base 115 speed, azelf's access to explosion gives it a semi-unique distinction as a suicide lead that truly is unafraid of any defogger / spinner.

with all this in mind, i would like to have azelf elevated to b rank from b- rank at the very minimum.

anyways, i apologize if it seems like i rambled on for the last part of my azelf defense. i just wanted to get discussion going in this thread. have a nice day / night / whatever time it is where you are n_n

e: i have removed greninja from this thread due to it being banned. r.i.p. in psychoneuroendocrinology, you littled ninja froge.

trc · Jan 10, 2015

skill swap azelf is just a 50/50 against sableye/diancie leads as they can choose not to mega on the skill swap and then attack in mega forme next turn, or obviously the other way around, megaing first turn. admittedly the matchup is in azelf's favour since the opponent doesn't know if the azelf has skill swap but it's still unreliable among players who've seen skill swap azelf used before.

ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread

Trinitrotoluene

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ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread

Trinitrotoluene

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