ORAS - post-Greninja - Metagame Discussion

[haunter]

Hi folks, it's been over two weeks since Greninja has left the OU tier. While there hasn't been any massive metagame shift, there are undoubtedly a few Pokémon that we might have interest in evaluating for a potential Suspect Test.

The purpose of this thread is to gather information from the playerbase on the current state of the ORAS metagame. Feel free to discuss your experiences from both the high end of the ladder and official tournaments. Notwithstanding the general rules of this forum, you're allowed to suggest potential suspects in this thread.

Before posting here, please, make sure that:
1) you have enough competitive battling experience;
2) you can motivate your post with adequate reasonings.

Remember that this is by no means a Suspect thread and keep the discussion civil. This thread will be strictly moderated.

 

[Toxzn]

Mega Sableye, Mega Meatgross and Landorus-i strike me as potential suspects.

Mega Sableye simply does too much, it spams burns pre mega with prankster, it blocks spins, it stops hazards outright after the mega and in general is fat as shit with amazing typing. As if that wasn't enough it also has the potential to sweep entire teams with the CM set.

Mega Metagross just because it's super fast, bulky, and hit very hard. Access to an amazing move pool, agility, etc. Also a spammable BP 90 STAB with a chance to boost attack and a free life orb boost is great. It's also kinda link greninja, in the sense you don't know if you can wall it until its full set is revealed.

Landorus-i, more debatable mainly, I just feel as though it's incredibly hard to wall and some of its best checks are easily pursuit spammed, the coverage it has is great and the rock polish and calm mind access mean it can break HO, Balance or Stall depending on what you need on your team. I don't feel as though it lost much, if anything from BW, it's still a monster and a total bitch.

 

[heritage]

I honestly think the ladder is a lot more comfortable without Greninja. There is no longer a need to run terrible or medicore Pokemon like Porygon2 or stick a Scarf on something that shouldn't use it. A lot more Pokemon have become more viable or a lot better than they already were, things like Mega Houndoom, Keldeo and Mega Metagross.

With Greninja gone, Mega Metagross has become one of the most deadly Megas in the current metagame. Being extremely fast, having one of the strongest Attack stats in the game factoring in Tough Claws and strong priority in Bullet Punch, there are very few things keeping it from being top class. Having an insane Defense stat as well makes it pretty much impossible to scratch. Clear Body is also an awesome ability before Mega Evolving, preventing things like Landorus from stopping it.

I honestly don't believe there are any other Pokemon than that who deserve a suspect test. Mega Metagross is extremely metagame defining. Sableye is powerful, before anybody mentions it, but it's stopped by one of the most deadly wall breakers in the game, Mega Gardevoir. Specs Sylveon is also becoming a lot more popular (That also has a bit to do with Greninjas as well).

Apologies if this wasn't the correct post to make.

 

[jpw234]

Remember that there's a difference between suspecting and banning (we can do one without the other). I don't think that Mega-Metagross should be banned, but it's a dominant enough threat that it should definitely be suspected. It hits the most important speed tier in the game and hits incredibly hard with Tough Claws boosted dual STABs. That amount of coverage, speed and bulk is worthy of a suspect test.

I think we should suspect Shadow Tag first, though. I don't want to rehash all the discussion that's been done, but I think people are starting to see how uncompetitive it is.

 

[Frogifier]

Now that Greninja is gone, I think the next suspect should be mega metagross. After both using it and facing it several times, I have found that there are very few consistent switchins to this monster. Bulky waters can be stopped by grass knot, many physically bulky steel types can be stopped by earthquake or hammer arm, and the extremely rare thunderpunch can 2HKO Skarmory. 80/150/110 defenses keep it from getting revenge killed easily, and its high 110 base speed lets it outspeed the majority of the metagame. Nothing can switch in on all of its possible attacks comfortably and consistently. Megagross does have a few switchins depending on which coverage move it lacks, but even so, these switchins cannot come in consistently.

Mega sableye is definitely worth a suspect, but not right now. Mega metagross imo is a more pressing matter than stupid gremlin

 

[pretty little liAr]

Mega Metagross and Sableye are mons I don't find broken. Sableye is really good, but it definetley has solid checks, such as mega gardevoir, mega diance, sub+calm mind Keldeo, tail glow manaphy, swords dance talonflame and mega Altaria are few examples of Pokemon that do a very good job at shutting down mega eye. It horrid speed after mega evolving is also annoying, so it can't pull of a recover if it really needs to in a certain situation. Mega Metagross gets worn down quite easily, due to lack of reliable recovery and it's speed while good, still leaves it outspead by some important threats, such as taloflame and mega Loppuny. Mega Metagross does seem suspect worthy, but I think we should the meta some time develop before calling a suspect test. In the mean time...
If you want something's to ban, Geopass and gothitelle + shadow tag. Geopass is stupily good of if it gets going, and shadow tag goth requires no strategy what so ever, and is rather uncompetitive, as it murders stall. I think we should focus on banning the uncompetitive and non-strategic things rather then Pokemon that seem to be suspect worthy, and get to that issue later.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

Personally I don't feel that anything needs to be banned just now, from playing on the ladder I can say that the tier is pretty nicely balanced now with Greninja gone. This is evidenced by a greater range of pokemon being useable without being limited to certain mons too much. Also, the viability of overall playstyles has been brought closer together to the point that I think offense-balanced-stall are close enough to give each a fair chance at winning.

I can see others perhaps wanting to ban mega sableye so it would be worth running a suspect test to see where the community stands. However for me it is not ban worthy at the moment. Although in theory it has a limited pool of mons to deal with it, in practice it is actually a lot harder to set up than you would think. Also the metagame has adapted well to it with stuff like sd gliscor being used to widen the ways to stop it.

Mega metagross would also be worth a suspect. I don't believe it to be broken but I can see why others may. One aspect I don't enjoy is it does force a lot of 50 50s - I've noticed this especially from watching spl matches. This is partly due to its switch ins changing a lot depending on its moveset so scouting is necessary, and things that outspeed it generally can only come in on half or fewer of its moves. Often to play around it people have to make risky switches to bring in their scarf lando-t etc. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-33706
However it is not too hard to deal with so I don't believe it to be broken in the current meta.

 

[Fourth Inversion]

I think the two potential pokemon for suspect testing are Mega Sableye and Mega Metagross, although I think that of the two, only Mega Metagross needs a test.

Overall, I think Mega Sableye has been a very strong, but not overpowered addition to the metagame, as have the other stall Mega pokemon, and I would be against suspect testing it. Although it's undeniably centralising, it's helped to boost the viability of Stall, and more importantly, the metagame has been able forced to prepare for it (and stall in general), and adapt to it, with the rise of new stallbreaking sets such as SD Poison Heal Breloom and SpDef Mold Breaker Excadrill, alongside older sets such as SD Talonflame.

On the other hand, I think Mega Metagross is a potential candidate for a suspect test in future, as it sits at an amazing speed tier, and gets fantastic offensive coverage. Meta Metagross has a good defensive typing and a poor STAB combination, but makes up for it with a very wide movepool, almost all of which is boosted by Tough Claws, a perfect stat distribution, amazing Base 110 speed tier, and with 150 Def, can even survive Jolly Scarfed Lando-T's Earthquake and L.O. Bisharp's Sucker Punch, and although it doesn't entirely lack for counters and checks, many of the best ones are Megas themselves.

Neutral on suspect testing GeoPass (not quite sure which part of the combination should be suspect tested), and against suspect testing Shadow Tag.

 

[Clone]

The two obvious suspects that stand out to me are sab and gross.

Sableye is the defining force of stall. Its insane defenses, lack of weaknesses, and Magic Bounce are all things that make it incredibly difficult to handle if played right. It has a multitude of differnet EV spreads it can run to take on both physical and special attackers, at the same time. Obviously there are things that can break through the mixed spread more easily, but it honestly renders things obsolete. for example, SR ferro is 100% deadweight against sab stall, because sab switches in for free every single time. THis applies to other Pokemon, such as Bulky SR Chomp, Lead Mamo, and Lead Terrakion (the latter two do not exist anymore). Additionally, it has a nasty CM set that is capable of beating many of its usualy checks, including Clefable if Clefable is Magic Guard and lacks CM itself. Its quite ridiculous how well sab can perform against pretty much any playstyle and still be successful in some way or another no matter what.

Gross, on the other hand, I do not find OP. Suspect worthy? Yes, definitely. But its not broken. What makes it suspect worthy tho is that it has a great speed tier with great offensive and defensive prowess, thanks to tough claws, its movepool, and typing. It hits really hard and can fuck over its switch ins with a coverage move, but that in itself doesnt make it OP. Most teams carry checks to it naturally, and getting the chip damage needed to kill it is not insanely difficult. Additionally, its speed, while great, is not to the point where nothing outspeeds it (like in the case of Ninja for example), so revenge killing it is somewhat easy after about 20% prior damage, depending on the mon. Additionally, its used to check a lot of things, such as Clef, Latios, Azu, etc, so getting this prior damage isnt as insanely difficult as Ive seen some people say. Its bulk is great, and theres no denying that, but to say its unkillable against offense is nothign short of being blatantly false.

No opinion on anything else. May expand on these points later if ppl question my reasoning.

 

[AM]

Shadow Tag suspect shouldn't take priority. There's clearly more pressing concerns in regards to actual threats themselves that should be looked at first. This isn't an argument establishing that Shadow Tag shouldn't be looked at though, this is more about the order of what I feel should be reviewed.

As far as those threats are concerned M-Metagross and M-Sableye is sort of a given, one correlated to a power level point of suspect worthy and another based on centralization respectively. The issue with M-Metagross is that for an offensive standard it is not only extremely powerful but it has the coverage and bulk that ups the ante of what I believe is considered normal. We can't really use the argument that chance is a factor in what could be suspect worthy but let's take into consideration that its main STAB Meteor Mash is providing you a 1/5 chance to boost your already powerful physical presence into unreal levels, which isn't hard to net at least once per match due to the nature of the low cost of using M-Metagross and its longevity. Then you need to consider that this is also coming from its ability to be a set-up sweeper with Rock Polish / Agility at its disposable on top of these mentioned traits. M-Metagross is extremely hard to check given its coverage options and granted it has checks but in regards to team-building a lot of times players are forced to play around it and the support provided by its team-mates to not get potentially floored. Some games in order to check M-Metagross, unless you're running something like Alomomola or extremely bulky such as Mega Slowbro, you're just shooting in the dark based on certain risks vs reward scenarios in the hope you're not getting nailed with a coverage move. As seen from SPL and high ladder games it's an extremely dominating force in our meta-game right now and is one of the pinnacles of OU right now putting a very high and subjectively unhealthy aspect towards team-building and practicality.

M-Sableye is the "savior of stall" but it's in a way that skews it in the completely wrong direction. What we've seen is the liability of defensive builds that are completely shunned to the side or become obsolete solely due to M-Sableye's presence. One could argue that it can get worn down by heavy hitters and the increase of Fairy Types however this isn't exactly the case. On top of both the support it provides with its CM set and along with the support it provides with its utility set it gives the M-Sableye user an edge against so many builds of all arch-types. These so called checks and counters are only based on trivial circumstances at times and it's not exactly unheard of to see games where you'll just watch these checks and counters get worn down or defeated in the long run due to the way M-Sableye teams are built. M-Sableye is the epitome of anti-hazard and anti-utility, traits that are a necessity in the game to almost all play-styles out side of certain forms of offense. We see this with the rising usage of SD Gliscor, the increased usage of Manaphy, with the second example increasing the usage of Gothitelle and trappers that brings us back and makes us realize why Shadow Tag should be looked at as well. M-Sableye is to put it bluntly, one of the easy buttons of our tier at this moment. Massive utility in its move pool, fantastic typing coupled with its bulk, Magic Bounce to deter Stealth Rock and hazards which many teams rely on to function properly, and overall is what I feel is unhealthy in giving a clear advantage coupled in with all of its positives with its negatives easily accommodated for that outweighs whatever opportunity cost people will believe that it somehow establishes.

Not much to say about Shadow Tag to be honest that hasn't been said in the past. It comes back to people's perspectives in that Stall is extremely hard to build for because the trait of Shadow Tag primarily used with Gothitelle and Wobbuffet has the ability to dismantle defensive cores with ease, and in the case of Gothitelle can simply do this by itself. Stall's emphasis in forcing to adapt I believe is where Shadow Tag finds itself as the big culprit towards this trend, a big factor because defensive cores are reliant in maintaining switch control which is removed out of the big picture by these very influential trappers of Gothitelle and Wobbuffet.

The meta-game right now I feel has the ability to build around plenty of play-styles, but it doesn't change the fact that the team-building constraint is evidently there because there is too many things to take into account for with these mentioned aspects being the red flags I have personally come across with others sharing similar sentiments. In regards to Toxzn's mention of Lando-I, I'm sympathetic towards it but this is one of these things that is hidden behind the allure of everything else that is going on at the moment, thus overshadowing elements that the community may or may not be aware of. The power creep has been established by the first two threats I've described while issues such as Shadow Tag are considered uncompetitive elements for our OU meta-game that should be reviewed in my honest opinion.

I apologize Haunter if this post seems sort out of line as it's not a suspect thread but I do feel that it correlates to the post Greninja meta and as such I feel confident these are relevant points of discussion that should be considered when we look at the OU meta-game. In order of what I feel should be on the chopping block at this point in time.

1. M-Metagross 2. M-Sableye 3. Shadow Tag 4. GeoPass

Thanks for reading.

 

[QueenOfHax]

I honestly find Mega Diancie far more dangerous than Mega Sableye and Metagross combined... because she is those two combined.
She has Megagross's speed and power, combined with Mega Sableye's bulk and ability. Her Protect+3 attacks set is quite predictable but doesn't stop her from being extremely dangerous against pretty much any playstyle. Access to Earth Power means steel types aren't safe against her and her Scizor problem can be easily solved by pairing her with something like Magnezone. If anything needs to be suspected, it's Diancite.

 

[bludz]

Since we don't have to talk about suspect nominations...

Since Greninja got banned, Keldeo rose as the dominant water type attacker. That's lead to stuff like the rise of Celebi (who also did not enjoy Greninja at all), although common Psychics like Slowbro and the Latis stayed around anyway. This has lead to a rise in Scarf Tyranitar (who also did not outspeed Greninja)

Also Gliscor has risen dramatically in usage and is seriously good. Definitely better than Landorus-T as a defensive mon as it has more reliable recovery and the ability to go specially defensive to check Gengar and Landorus-I both of which don't have many checks. Gliscor is pretty versatile honestly and it's finally getting its shine now that Lando-T isn't practically a required scarfer any more

Also Diancie no. The bulk isn't that great without investment (and seriously wayyyyyy more weaknesses than Sableye plus no recovery) so you can't switch her in to block SRs all the time. Also Metagross is definitely bulkier himself and has a better defensive typing without being weak to 2 of the 3 most common types of priority attack

 

[Kurona]

... s-so uh I'm just gonna be hipster and not talk about something I think needs a suspect
metagross is cancer tho and i honestly dont understand anyones problem with sableye

I think instead I'd like to talk about certain 'mon that have gotten a lot better in the metagame.

Fairy-Types in general
The relationship of the fairy-type to Greninja has been a very odd one. In late XY when Greninja began to dominate, Fairy-Types - as well as other bulky 'mon like Empoleon and Chansey - were the only things really keeping the Smash Bros. Newcomer at bay. Boasting generally high special defence and the ability to just not give a shit about whatever Greninja threw at it, the fairies were always valuable and viable choices for a team. Then ORAS came around and made Greninja, ironically, their biggest fear thanks to Gunk Shot OHKOing most if not all of them. Now that the frog's got a new job in Ubers laying hazards, the Fairies are back in full force and hoo boy are they good.
Clefable happily comes back to it's job as the cornerstone of balance that finds itself a place on an incredibly large amount of teams; whether she's being the Sableye check, boosting up the Calm Minds or offering Wish support while being oblivious to set-up moves. I never thought I'd see a metagame where Clefable of all things became one of the best Pokémon but it's new typing alone has let it abuse it's support, versatility and wide movepool to a fantastic degree.
Mega Gardevoir returns as Stall's biggest fear, shutting down many a Pokémon with Stall while pummeling just about everything for large damage with Hyper Voice, Focus Blast and Psyshock. It even got a new target since Sableye became Stall's new face. Arguably the only very viable and common Mega left of XY's triple threat wallbreakers - Medicham, Gardevoir and Heracross - Gardevoir still finds it's job easy to pull off with little more trouble than before.
Azumarill still finds itself putting in work in the ORAS metagame. Teams can be hilarious unprepared for the BD set which is once again rising in relevance, but the CB and AV sets still find themselves holding a lot of teams together thanks to Azumarill's excellent typing and ridiculous groudon-level power.
Sylveon is a very underrated threat but is slowly but surely rising in relevance. Specs is what I'll be focusing on here and ho boy is it a good one. Many physical set-up Megas old and new like Gallade, Charizard, Pinsir and Altaria have a lot of trouble with common physical walls in stall. Sylveon, on the other hand, doesn't really give a shit. Specs Pixilate Hyper Voice's insane power eclipses even Gardevoir's, breaking through Sableye, Slowbro and others with not a care in the world. It arguably has more problems than the other fairies because it has both weak physical defence and slow speed; but what it has is enough for it's job of exterminating physical walls.
New threats to fairies have emerged, however. With their higher prevalance Choice Band Scizor rears it's head from Gen 5 once more, running around with Bullet Punch to obliterate or force switches on the pixies. Mega Beedrill is a smaller threat but most certainly one worth noting. Adaptability Poison Jab is terrifying, all fairies bar Klefki and Diancie fearing it's power. And finally, who can ignore Mega Metagross who... well... yeah fairies just die to this thing.
And uh.
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 223-264 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Jesus christ.

Scizor
As I said, with the increase of fairies Scizor's base form once again has a reason to be used in OU. Boasting the power to 2HKO every fairy in the game and with the prominence of Mega Altaria, Scizor now finds itself placed on a lot more teams and has once again become a notable threat. Also of note is a recently pioneered Swords Dance Life Orb set much like it's Mega; still boasting enough power and bulk to work and being an even scarier opponent for fairies to face.

Kyurem-Black
While not quite on the level of other wallbreakers and certainly not it's previous friends in Ubers, Kyurem-Black is a threat that hasn't been talked about much but enjoys the removal of Greninja's Low Kick from the metagame. Now able to switch in on a lot more threats, it's Life Orb wallbreaker set is now free to snap stall in two with it's bare hands. Of course, new threats to it's success such as Diancie, Gallade and most certainly Metagross cannot be ignored, but Kyurem-Black should not go underestimated either.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Reposting from trapping abilities thread
I am not convinced Shadowtag is broken, but am convinced Gothitelle is. Goth just destroys stalls teams with no effort. Sure other stalls breakers like Manaphy put it work vs stall, but can be played around. Goth can not be played around. If played right (which isn't hard), it comes in kills something then other team sweeps, easy as that. Sure its so so vs offense, but can still put in work trapping things like Keldeo, MegaHeracross. Yet it completely wrecks balance and stall. It can just take out Cresslia, Clefable, Mega Venu, Quag, Chansey, Skarmory, Ammongus, Ferrothorn and those are just the things off the top of my head. Yet, i'm not so convinced the other Shadowtag users are broken. If gothitelle was banned could Gothorita be anywhere near as good as Gothitelle? I really don't know. It could still trap, but with its lower stats would be anywhere near effective? Lastly, i'm not quite convinced Wobbutfett is broken. It is total taunt bait. Its forced to play guessing games with set-up sweepers/mixed attackers. Stall users can just toxic it. Really only things it beats are choiced locked attackers and mons with 4 attacks. It just isn't that effective. Conclusion: I wouldn't really mind if Shadowtag was banned, but really think Gothitelle is the only broken user, but would be open to being proved wrong.

For anyone unconviced about gothitelle try playing stall vs a team with gothitelle and a competent player, its near impossible and forces many suboptimal sets like skill swap cresselia and shed shell on many things

Also antiban on megasabeleye. Sableye makes stall much more viable, but not broken. Yes it renders some mons like ferrothorn useless, but for one gothitelle renders much more useless and kills them in the process. Also many other mons have pure counters they cannot touch: Keldeo vs Celebi (par hp bug) etc.. In addition Mega Sabeleye has several counters and checks most being fire and fairy types that beat it. Yes i'm oversimplifying a bit, but so do others that make out ferrothorn to be unviable which is simply untrue.

Sort of neutral on geopass and MegaMetagross. I haven't really seen much geopass lately (thankfully) so that is prob why i'm neutral on it atm. For the record I don't think baton pass as a whole should be broken as it has real non broken usages in celebi and gliscor. MegaMetagross I'm on the fence about as it is really good, but not quite greninja levels. Obviously its not MegaMence level, but that was completely broken. I compare it most to Aegislash as they are both bulky steel types with great offensive capabilities. Aegislash had king shield going for it while MegaMetagross has a mega as a negative, but has much higher speed. Thus I'll be looking for good arguments on why or why not it should be banned.

 

[LMay]

Have trouble with Diancie doesn't mean suspect , M-Diancie is really bad compared to the new OU mega (she is not even OU , just BL) , she is way too slow 1st turn , no bulk (terrible 50 base HP) , quite bad typing , very previsible (Diamond storm , Moonblast , Earth power and what ? LOL bad movepool) , weak to common priority... M-Metagross need a suspect IMO because of the strong immediate power , speed , bulk , and way too good movepool (Ice punch , Thunder punch , GK , Hammer arm , ZE , BP , Pursuit , Agility , Meteor mash) , Tough claws is a free LO and it's way too powerfull for the meta , i don't want to bring a defensive Scizor to deal with this thing in my every team.
And Kurona, i think you missed M-Altaria in your Fairy types , M-Alt is one of the best fairy in the metagame atm IMO.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

I honestly find Mega Diancie far more dangerous than Mega Sableye and Metagross combined... because she is those two combined.
She has Megagross's speed and power, combined with Mega Sableye's bulk and ability. Her Protect+3 attacks set is quite predictable but doesn't stop her from being extremely dangerous against pretty much any playstyle. Access to Earth Power means steel types aren't safe against her and her Scizor problem can be easily solved by pairing her with something like Magnezone. If anything needs to be suspected, it's Diancite.

Not even close. Diancie is good, but she can be stopped by a lot of top-tier threats. See: pretty much anything that outspeeds her and has something even remotely strong. This includes Scarfchomp, Scarf Landorus-T, and Scarf Heatran. Her awful base 50 HP stat also means she will literally be crippled by any super-effective move. Her good defenses mean pretty much nothing, as an uninvested Quagsire's Scald does 62% to Naive Diancie. Rotom-W, Scizor, Lucario, Mega Medicham with Bullet Punch, Mega Metagross, Scarf Keldeo, Mega Sceptile, Flash Cannon Air Balloon Heatran, and even Talonflame can 2HKO her with Brave Bird. Basically, she's good, but not broken. With proper support she excels, but is stopped dead by many common threats. Not to mention Magnezone + Diancie aren't that great together, as now Air Balloon Heatran can kill them both with Earth Power and Flash Cannon, and Landorus-T becomes even more of a problem. And Jirachi checks M-Diancie despite being weak to steel.

I could go on and on. I don't see any Pokemon that are downright broken like Greninja was, but I won't disagree with Sableye and Metagross.

 

[MemedYourMom]

Mega Sableye and Mega Metagross are definitely topics of discussion. However, mega Sableye is a more prominent threat than Metagross now that greninja is gone because ninja was one of, if not the best stall breaker in the tier, although i voted for it to be banned. Sableye is vulnerable so to say to power special attackers before it can set up any calm minds. Magic bounce allows it to avoid taunt, toxic and will-o-wisp (chip damage), thunder wave (because you know bad players get hax :^)) and etc. Not only to add, but access to prankster will-o-wisp , recover and calm mind before it mega evolves is helpful. Sableye is an excellent counter to most of the mons higher up on the viability rankings (the famous lando-t and megagross). From first hand experience, if you know how to play sableye and build a good enough team around him to eliminate threats such as mega lopunny and altaria etc etc, then it is a much bigger threat than metagross. If i had to choose one over the other to be suspected first, it would be sableye no doubt. Only way to beat sableye is with hax and the counters i listed before. However, you have to remember when putting a mon up for suspect or arguing against it, that you are not only laddering with one mon. You have a team for a reason. A good team works well and runs cohesively and the mons work well with each other. its as easy as taking sableyes counters and running counters to those counters. on top of that you have to know what ur doing when your playing that team. All these taken into account, (Easy to build around, limited counters in tier, magic bounce, bulk, access to calm mind) sableye is much scarier than metagross at the moment. Know how to play him and it can be a hassle.

 

[Mur]

Imo this thread was a wonderful idea shoutout to Haunter for that. Since most of my opinions have been shared already I guess I'l throw out a summary of my thoughts on these potential suspects.

This monster imo needs to go. It's raw power is just ridiculous as it 2hkos bulky mons with neutral stab like rotom-w with zen headbutt. While some other mons may possess this quality Mmeta also makes the now preferred speed tier of base 110 and has a stupid amount of bulk to go along with all these characteristics. Meta also puts you in spots similar to greninja where you have to play guessing games trying to determine what coverage moves it's running in an attempt to effectively counter or check it. Not gonna go too in depth as people above have already done so. So all in all due to all of this there are almost no true counters to meta besides a handful of select mons so imo this beast is pretty unhealthy and should get tested asap.

Msab I'm kinda on the fence with and my thoughts are kind of skewed on it so I won't talk about it too much but it definitely deserves to be at least suspected due to the ridiculous amount of roles it fulfills at once and it's ability to take on every team archetype. I also feel the same way about Stag so I won't elaborate on it.

Geopass- oml do I have shit to say about this. While it clearly requires more "skill" than bp teams in the past that level of skill required is still ludicrously low. Something that auto-wins you all the way to like 1650-1700 on the ladder is pretty stupid and the fact that it's all just clicking buttons with little to no risk while the opposition has all the pressure to break the setup before smeargle comes in just shows how little skill you need to possess to abuse these types of teams. While you will probably never see a strategy like this in a major tour due to nobody wanting to be "that guy" theoretically what is stopping someone from say laddering up for OLT with geopass and then abusing it in the tour? While better players can still beat it and there are ways to stop it that does not necessarily mean that geopass should not be looked at due to how uncompetitive such a strategy is by nature. I'm sorry if this is not the place to discuss what actions should be specifically taken to handle this but since it is apart of a complex ban in the first place and there are many ways to handle this I'l just throw out my ideas to get the ball rolling i guess. The main part of the strategy is abusing smeargle's ability to have any move and espeon being unphazable and possessing stored power so this should be the target of the ban. So I guess two clauses along the lines of geomancy+bp and bp+recipient containing stored power effectively removes geopass and any hope of a future bp strategy rising again.

So imo for the order of actions that should be taken
Mega Metagross>Msab>geopass>Stag

 

[ohgeedubs]

I guess I'll restate (from a different thread discussing Clefable) why I think Magic Bounce is ridiculous - and as a result, ridiculous on a mon that is bulky and has as much utility as Sableye.

We all know Magic Guard is an amazing ability, but Magic Bounce is it on steroids (that is, a stupidly good ability). Magic Guard is a perk - it neuters passive damage as form of offense. But Magic Bounce is simultaneously a perk and a weapon - it neuters passive damage (for the most part) and threatens to turn it against you. In addition to the fact that the entire hazard game is warped and that it cannot be taunted, it basically threatens to take anything except direct attacks/set up moves and turn it against you. In other words, while Clefable consistently provides utility even if counters exist by walling stuff/pivoting, Sableye consistently provides utility by just existing. The risk/reward of using aggressive status moves (which every team needs) gets warped.

And this is in addition to the fact that Sableye can still wall a lot of mons like Clefable, sweep like Clefable, and provide utility with a variety of sets like Clefable. It puts in work when it's on the field and when it's not.

The reason why Clefable having counters matters is because the counters can prevent it from doing its job (unless it's pivoting - but let's be honest - pivoting doesn't really have the same threat level as Sableye sets), whereas Sableye cannot reliably be prevented from doing its main jobs - hazard control/absorb status, while still threatening to do everything else it's awesome at. It cannot even be trapped.

Someone replied to me and said I was exaggerating Magic Bounce as superior to Magic Guard, but I disagree. Outside of lo recoil and certain SR weak mons, I think like 40% of OU could potentially benefit from having Magic Bounce over their own ability (I think it's that good), and only like 2-4 would rather have Magic Guard. Yes, Magic Bounce doesn't prevent scald burns, but depending on scald burns is hax-reliant and taunt/phazing immunity is overall better.

As for hazards, the opponent takes a risk by setting up hazards if you have Magic Bounce, while there is no risk if Magic Guard. So yes, although the individual mon with magic bounce gets hit by hazards if they're up, I question how much Magic Guard really benefited your team overall here > Magic Bounce (because Magic Bounce would deter the hazards for your entire team) - especially since it's not unreasonably difficult to remove the hazards. Strictly speaking, Magic Guard isn't outclassed per se, but Bounce is just... better imo.

Regardless, Sableye has a good typing, good utility moves, good bulk, and with one of the best abilities in the game, warps both the metagame itself and the way you have to play within individual games in a way I find restricting and at least worthy of suspect.

 

[BasedCannon]

I've been lurking on the forums for some time now, waiting for this type of thread to pop-up. I guess now is as good a time to step forward and get involved with the tier I actually, at least in my opinion, am strong at.

In terms of the aforementioned potential suspect tests.

Mega Metagross: Initially when I first used Mega Metagross, I had trouble getting the thing to do what everyone else was telling me it did. After a while though I slowly figured out how to play it and realized that in no way is Mega Metagross a subpar Pokemon. It actually has everything a Mega could want; absurd bulk without investment, a very strong move pool to help deal with it's checks and counters, in addition to hitting the incredibly relevant base 110 speed tier with a max speed investment. On paper, Mega Metagross is a dream come true. I won't lie and say that it's underwhelming; beating this threat isn't always easy and one mistake is all it takes for its Tough Claws to literally rip holes into your team and leave you falling down a step on the ladder. All that said... I do have this strange theory about Mega Metagross. It's already been stated in previous posts how scary the Fairy-Type can be and how it can rip equally as big holes in opposing teams if played properly. However Metagross is perfectly able to keep them in check. More specifically, it's able to keep Mega Altaria in check, who has the potential to dominate the tier (at least in my opinion). So while I feel a suspect test wouldn't be out of the question for this behemoth, I do feel like banning it would be a mistake as I see it as a necessary evil.

Mega Sableye: And with all that said, it's time to address the next elephant in the room. Initially I didn't expect Mega Sableye to even be used over the pesky stallbreaker set. Oh, but was I wrong. The thing is most definitely used and despite not being able to hit you as fast as a Mega Metagross, it can fullky break your team with ease assuming you didn't prepare a counter for it. The truth of the matter is Mega Sableye having Magic Bounce put this thing on a whole new level that nobody realized it would be at. Sure you can threaten to blast it for super-effective damage with a fairy type, but if you don't have that then you're probably going to struggle to even have a chance against this thing. It has fantastic physical bulk. It has one of the stupidest abilities to ever be introduced into the game in the form of Magic Bounce. It even can abuse Prankster prior to Mega Evolution and do some damage to the long term game and threaten to shut your team down quickly. While it's more of a grind game Mega Pokemon, Mega Sableye can be a bit problematic. I think that if it didn't have Prankster initially then this post wouldn't even be here (at least the portion addressing it), but I personally feel that the two in tangent aren't relatively healthy. Because of that, I fully support a suspect test for Mega Sableye, and while it's not thee most over-centralizing Pokemon, I would probably go on the record to say that this is one Mega I would vote to ban.

Shadow-Tag: This section is going to be relatively short as I don't have too much to say about it. Shadow Tag has always been a ridiculous ability to play around, however in OU the only real trappers seem too underwhelming in my opinion. I understand that Gothitelle can destroy Stall, I've used it quite a few times for that specific purpose, however I've seen many stall players play around the Gothitelle and deal with it quite well. I personally don't feel we need to suspect this ability. I understand many players will disagree with me here, and that's fine. I just know what I'd vote for if it came down to it.

Geo-Pass: I really haven't come across too many Geo-Pass teams and if I have then I've dealt with them quite easily. Baton Pass has already been absolutely destroyed in the tier, I don't feel that an additional hit is worth nerfing. Maybe if I run into it more and struggle with it more then I'll change my mind, but as it stands, I don't believe this needs a suspect test either.

 

[Kurona]

Few other Pokémon that benefited from the ban who are incredibly relevant right now.

Celebi
The recently-moved-to-A Rank-how-am-I-still-UU spring onion thing! Now it isn't getting Dark Pulsed/Ice Beamed up the ass every 10 seconds Celebi's free to exploit it's true potential and versatility. A set I've been having a ton of fun with lately in conjunction with Mega Blastoise is Giga Drain/Recover/Thunder Wave/Stealth Rock. I've found it to be a very reliable rock setter with defensive investment; also spreading around Paralysis to cripple many faster Pokémon for slower, tankier 'mon to handle -- like, again, Mega Blastoise. Has a lot of synergy with bulky waters which should not be underrated. Another set recently coming into the light is Nastypass. Holds up momentum while giving an incredible buff to a Pokémon. This isn't where it stops though; I was just giving a few examples to show that Celebi has become much more relevant and versatile in this meta.

Keldeo
Yet another legendary that benefits from Greninja; Keldeo now no longer is forced to run Scarf to stop the frog. Not only that but standards for speed tiers have dropped significantly; making Base 108 somewhat better again. Yet another way Keldeo benefits is that Greninja was the premier Water-type attacker; now that's gone Keldeo - albeit arguably competing with Starmie for this position - fills that role. Regardless, Keldeo's newfound versatility opens up a lot of possibilities and unpredictability from it. The Scarf set is still good, but now it's able to run a Specs set which is extremely hard to switch into, and it's Sub CM set is finally viable, giving it the push to S-rank it really needed. Definitely one of the biggest threats to watch out for post-ninja meta.

 

[LeoLancaster]

Mega Metagross: Initially when I first used Mega Metagross, I had trouble getting the thing to do what everyone else was telling me it did. After a while though I slowly figured out how to play it and realized that in no way is Mega Metagross a subpar Pokemon. It actually has everything a Mega could want; absurd bulk without investment, a very strong move pool to help deal with it's checks and counters, in addition to hitting the incredibly relevant base 110 speed tier with a max speed investment. On paper, Mega Metagross is a dream come true. I won't lie and say that it's underwhelming; beating this threat isn't always easy and one mistake is all it takes for its Tough Claws to literally rip holes into your team and leave you falling down a step on the ladder. All that said... I do have this strange theory about Mega Metagross. It's already been stated in previous posts how scary the Fairy-Type can be and how it can rip equally as big holes in opposing teams if played properly. However Metagross is perfectly able to keep them in check. More specifically, it's able to keep Mega Altaria in check, who has the potential to dominate the tier (at least in my opinion). So while I feel a suspect test wouldn't be out of the question for this behemoth, I do feel like banning it would be a mistake as I see it as a necessary evil.

I know that you didn't outright say you think Metagross is broken, but calling it a necessary evil kind of implies that you do think it is broken. If you do, then your argument is a case of "broken checking broken" which is invalid because we don't keep broken pokemon around to help deal with other [potentially] broken pokemon, we ban all the broken pokemon instead.

Why does this need to be said when there isn't even a suspect thread? ;;

 

[SketchUp]

The only pokemon/ability I am sure it needs a suspect is Metagross.

Mega Sableye is arguably the most centralizing force in the metagame. It is not the boss of stall because it can wall many things, but because it helps stall get past many annoying stuff like hazards and taunt way too easily. The bulk, typing and ability is a very good combination and the added movepool is enough for Mega Sableye to be very easy to use it with little risk and a high reward. The CM set is one of the easiest win buttons if the opponent lacks counters for it (others being CM Mega Slowbro and Mega Metagross) and even the counters an usual team has for Sableye (Clefable, Azumarill, Manaphy, Mega Gyarados) can be worn down because Mega Sableye gives the team an advantage in hazards and status. Not to forget Mega Sableye can also be used on Semi-Stall or Balance, where it still gives the team very much utility for such low risk. I'm not convinced this thing is supect worthy yet, but as the metagame is revolving I am much more thinking it is.

Mega Metagross' wallbreaking powers are insane and there are only a few good switchins. Assuming Mega Metagross doesn't run Grass Knot (which it shouldn't in my opinion) the only hard stop is Slowbro, which only fits on more defensive orientated teams. It has the bulk to even live a supereffective earthquake from scarf landorus-t (not that you should stay in on it) which is just insane for a pokemon which runs no bulk investment. Not forgetting there is also a move called Pursuit in Metagross' moveset which helps trapping Victini and Lati@s. Pokemon like Hippowdon can switch in on some moves but often still end up losing because Earthquake doesn't kill Metagross and Meteor Mash has a 20% to boost the attack stat, which becomes almost 50% after 3 Meteor Mashes. Outside of some obvious scarfers offense can bring up against Mega Metagross you also have Talonflame, Victini, Manaphy and Manectric (really use this thing more often) but, outside of Talonflame, they are often not the biggest problems for a offensive team to handle. In most cases the player against Mega Metagross needs to make a good prediction to get in free against Metagross and even if it does, the bulk of Metagross helps him tankin many hits you can throw at it. Prediction argument can also be used against Mega Metagross, but unlike Greninja and Mega Heracross, who also both need to predict often, it both has the bulk [which ninja lacks] and the speed [which hera lacks] to have a safe back-up if it makes a misprediction. The player against Mega Metagross is in a huge misadvantage if using the prediction argument and the pokemon that can punish a misprediction from Mega Metagross (like Bisharp and Talonflame) are still going to have a hard time switching in more than once. I am probably exaggerating the power of Mega Metagross, but I use stuff like Scarf Victini and Hippowdon all the time and Mega Metagross is still a bitch to defeat because it has a nearly perfect combination of bulk, power and coverage. I can't see why smogon would not at least suspect test this thing.

 

[Alfalfa]

Shadow Tag suspect shouldn't take priority. There's clearly more pressing concerns in regards to actual threats themselves that should be looked at first. This isn't an argument establishing that Shadow Tag shouldn't be looked at though, this is more about the order of what I feel should be reviewed.

As far as those threats are concerned M-Metagross and M-Sableye is sort of a given, one correlated to a power level point of suspect worthy and another based on centralization respectively. The issue with M-Metagross is that for an offensive standard it is not only extremely powerful but it has the coverage and bulk that ups the ante of what I believe is considered normal. We can't really use the argument that chance is a factor in what could be suspect worthy but let's take into consideration that its main STAB Meteor Mash is providing you a 1/5 chance to boost your already powerful physical presence into unreal levels, which isn't hard to net at least once per match due to the nature of the low cost of using M-Metagross and its longevity. Then you need to consider that this is also coming from its ability to be a set-up sweeper with Rock Polish / Agility at its disposable on top of these mentioned traits. M-Metagross is extremely hard to check given its coverage options and granted it has checks but in regards to team-building a lot of times players are forced to play around it and the support provided by its team-mates to not get potentially floored. Some games in order to check M-Metagross, unless you're running something like Alomomola or extremely bulky such as Mega Slowbro, you're just shooting in the dark based on certain risks vs reward scenarios in the hope you're not getting nailed with a coverage move. As seen from SPL and high ladder games it's an extremely dominating force in our meta-game right now and is one of the pinnacles of OU right now putting a very high and subjectively unhealthy aspect towards team-building and practicality.

M-Sableye is the "savior of stall" but it's in a way that skews it in the completely wrong direction. What we've seen is the liability of defensive builds that are completely shunned to the side or become obsolete solely due to M-Sableye's presence. One could argue that it can get worn down by heavy hitters and the increase of Fairy Types however this isn't exactly the case. On top of both the support it provides with its CM set and along with the support it provides with its utility set it gives the M-Sableye user an edge against so many builds of all arch-types. These so called checks and counters are only based on trivial circumstances at times and it's not exactly unheard of to see games where you'll just watch these checks and counters get worn down or defeated in the long run due to the way M-Sableye teams are built. M-Sableye is the epitome of anti-hazard and anti-utility, traits that are a necessity in the game to almost all play-styles out side of certain forms of offense. We see this with the rising usage of SD Gliscor, the increased usage of Manaphy, with the second example increasing the usage of Gothitelle and trappers that brings us back and makes us realize why Shadow Tag should be looked at as well. M-Sableye is to put it bluntly, one of the easy buttons of our tier at this moment. Massive utility in its move pool, fantastic typing coupled with its bulk, Magic Bounce to deter Stealth Rock and hazards which many teams rely on to function properly, and overall is what I feel is unhealthy in giving a clear advantage coupled in with all of its positives with its negatives easily accommodated for that outweighs whatever opportunity cost people will believe that it somehow establishes.

Not much to say about Shadow Tag to be honest that hasn't been said in the past. It comes back to people's perspectives in that Stall is extremely hard to build for because the trait of Shadow Tag primarily used with Gothitelle and Wobbuffet has the ability to dismantle defensive cores with ease, and in the case of Gothitelle can simply do this by itself. Stall's emphasis in forcing to adapt I believe is where Shadow Tag finds itself as the big culprit towards this trend, a big factor because defensive cores are reliant in maintaining switch control which is removed out of the big picture by these very influential trappers of Gothitelle and Wobbuffet.

The meta-game right now I feel has the ability to build around plenty of play-styles, but it doesn't change the fact that the team-building constraint is evidently there because there is too many things to take into account for with these mentioned aspects being the red flags I have personally come across with others sharing similar sentiments. In regards to Toxzn's mention of Lando-I, I'm sympathetic towards it but this is one of these things that is hidden behind the allure of everything else that is going on at the moment, thus overshadowing elements that the community may or may not be aware of. The power creep has been established by the first two threats I've described while issues such as Shadow Tag are considered uncompetitive elements for our OU meta-game that should be reviewed in my honest opinion.

I apologize Haunter if this post seems sort out of line as it's not a suspect thread but I do feel that it correlates to the post Greninja meta and as such I feel confident these are relevant points of discussion that should be considered when we look at the OU meta-game. In order of what I feel should be on the chopping block at this point in time.

1. M-Metagross 2. M-Sableye 3. Shadow Tag 4. GeoPass

Thanks for reading.

You are really overstating the potential sources of problems risen by Shadow Tag. Wobbuffet is usually more suited towards trapping offensive Pokemon because the really high HP + CounterCoat + Shadow Tag allows Wobbuffet to remove a limited amount (usually at most two, sometimes three) of offensive threats during a match. Usually against a more defensive team, Wobbuffet is usually more inclined towards supporting its team with Encore and Safeguard, though Wobbuffet does have the potential to dispatch Slowbro due to being faster than it (so is Ferrothorn, but Iron Barbs hurts). UDespite how annoying it can be for the opposing team to have to work around being Encored into a move and not being able to switch out before the opposing team can take advantage of it, this is usually not the end of the world for the opposing team, as they are usually able to recover from most instances where this occurs. In order to make Wobbuffet able to do more work against defensive teams, you have to give up some of its bulk to give it a lot of speed, which can really hinder its performance against offensive threats, which is one of the biggest selling points of Shadow Tag + CounterCoat. While Gothitelle can be a huge nuisance for stall, it usually has to give something up in order to be able to be consistent against stall. Choice Scarf Gothitelle has limited use against stall, with Trick being the only sort of weapon against it. Choice Specs sets can break down defensive cores easily, but it has a really bad match-up against more offensive teams and usually do very little against them, and usually any other sets are inconsistent or difficult to pull off. Shadow Tag on paper looks bannable, but the current two abusers of the ability in OU really are not problematic to be warranted a suspect. GeoPass is more suspect worthy due to how limiting it can be for most teams to even chance for winning against it, and MegaGross and Mega Sableye for the reasons that you stated.

 

[p2]

Mega Houndoom has definitely gotten a lot better with ORAS and even better now that Greninja is gone
It's typing, Nasty Plot and Taunt let it Stallbreak very well against Sableye Stall teams and its 115 Speed tier lets it outspeed and OHKO Mega Metagross and outside of Stallbreaker sets it still has some interesting options to opt for like Sludge Bomb or mixed sets with Sucker Punch or even Pursuit. It's a soft counter for things like Bisharp, but can check most of the metagame outside of bulky waters with ease. But it's definitely a threat teams should always keep in mind because unprepared teams can just get swept by it. Though it's typing does hurt it quite a bit since it's 2x weak to SR, meaning that prepared teams can easily wear it down through forcing multiple switches and its typing leaves it weak to Rock, Ground, Water and Fighting type moves which are all very common coverage.