ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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hyw

Banned deucer.
In my opinion, you're blowing things way out of proportion. Any competent player using a decent team would (1) preserve Primal Groudon as a switch-in and (2) have pivots available if you switch into Primal Groudon (against HO it's a 50/50 between your Water move or Ice move due to Mega Salamence, and even then it doesn't really matter because the rest of the team just sets up on it, balance is worst due to Dialga Arceus-Water Latios etc totally dicking it, and good stall teams have Rest Primal Groudon Blissey Ferrothorn etc to prevent anything funny). Primal Kyogre is indeed a reason Primal Groudon is staple on every team but this doesn't speak of Primal Kyogre's viability as a result of this at all. Darkrai can learn Thunder and Ho-Oh 2HKOs with Brave Bird. You might net easy ladder wins against the inexperienced who sac their Primal Groudon early but that's about it lol. At best this Pokémon fits on balance as a poor man's Arceus Water or as a lure for Primal Groudon to open up a Xerneas sweep but yeah personally I never consider this Pokémon when teambuilding.

I actually think this thing should drop but iirc we already went over this a while back and I'm not interested in nominating stuff down.
 

Cynara

Banned deucer.
Gonna step in on some nominations made in the thread, I disagree with Cresselia dropping to C-, this would put it with Grass Arceus and etc, and I feel there is a noticeable difference between these subranks;

Cresselia is actually kinda underrated and I feel it's a C+ at the very least since it has a workable niche and the Trick Room can really be really solid against offensive teams and offers significant bulk to check quite a few threats of the tier such as Primal Groudon and Mega Salamence, it's also a workable magic Coat user; Which can be useful in some situations, as well as having access to Lunar dance utility which can really change the flow of the game; giving a second life to powerful wallbreakers such as SD Groudon. Furthermore Cresselia is not really restricted to Trick Room teams and to be quite honest I feel it works best on Balance teams with a breaker such as Paradancer Groudon.

I don't really agree with Bronzong going to A either, for simple reasons it has a specific niche and only fits certain teams and doesn't fit the criteria of A rank Pokemon. It doesn't fit offensive teams well at all and you lose a lot of momentum, since it tends to be bait vs many common offensive threats such as Ho-oh, Yveltal, Gengar to name a few and you lose that swing of momentum that Offensive teams want, also on offense you generally shouldn't be switching into to check threats with defensive play, I don't think the momentum costs that can commonly occur with it merit it any use of it over Dialga.

You over-exaggerate its ability to be able to get rocks up vs mega Sableye even with Skill Swap and leads to some momentum cost in some situations and you actually have to catch it on the switch to have any actual success to get rocks up. Even on Balance teams I don't think it's merit as a Stealth Rocker is that great, due to it's solid ability to check Xerneas and friends, Team options such as SD Jolly Rocks Groudon can easily accommodate builds with Bronzong, while being more consistent at keeping rocks up than Bronzong is actually able to, so I would consider alternative Rockers before resorting to Stealth Rocks on Bronzong.

I feel Protect is a more superior option over Stealth Rock with Gyro Ball / Toxic / Skill Swap, allowing you to scout your opponents plays, some extra leftovers recovery and generally to stall out mons with toxic to wear them down faster.
 

hyw

Banned deucer.
Following your logic I could say the exact same about Dialga: "Dialga doesn't fit balance teams well at all and you lose a lot of defensive properties such as a full Ground immunity and a resistance to Fairy and Dragon, since it tends to be bait against common offensive threats such as Arceus-Ground, Arceus, and Primal Groudon, as well as an inability to check major offensive threats like Xerneas and Latios."

You keep beating a dead horse about how and why Bronzong underperforms when placed on an offensive team, and I agree completely that Bronzong does not fit offensive teams well, I even acknowledged this in my original post; yes, Dialga would fit better as a Stealth Rocker on bulky offense. But Bronzong isn't meant to fit on offensive teams like that in the first place, just like Dialga isn't meant to fit on more balanced teams. Rather, Bronzong finds its place in the metagame (niche is too strong a word when so many successful balance teams have been created using this Pokémon as a Stealth Rocker and its myriad of utilities as expounded upon in my original post) thanks to its defensive utility qualities that Dialga simply does not have by virtue of ability, typing, and stats. Fundamentally, the two Pokémon are virtually identical in what they aim to accomplish, but fit equally well on two separate and different viable team archetypes within the metagame. As a thought experiment, one could try finding a Bronzong team and replace it with Dialga; would it be as equally as effective of a team structure? You might suddenly find yourself needing to find new ways to cover for variants of Xerneas, Arceus-Normal, Deoxys-Attack, Arceus-Ground, Mega Diancie, Rayquaza, Latios, Landorus-T, Excadrill, Mega Kangaskhan...and vice versa if you replaced Dialga on an offensive team with Bronzong. You're arguing for just one side when both sides are two sides of the same coin!

Your point about Mega Sableye isn't coherent and your point about offensive Stealth Rock Primal Groudon proves your misconstruction of my argument yet again: Bronzong is meant to be on balance teams and does it well. Therefore, it would open up the opportunity for Primal Groudon to run something like, say, Swords Dance + Substitute or Thunder Wave. Your diction makes it seem as though no Stealth Rockers other than Primal Groudon and Dialga exist and that balance is an unviable archetype in this metagame. This is gravely false. Or, to exaggerate this point, if you were to build a Trick Room team, you would teach both Dialga and Bronzong Trick Room but opt to teach Stealth Rocks to Bronzong whilst running three attacks on Dialga, giving it a Life Orb as Bronzong already provides you with Ground immunity, not to mention everything else Bronzong brings to the table. Simply put, whatever angle you compare Bronzong and Dialga from, it's quite clear that, unlike any other Steel-type (or Pokémon, for that matter), Bronzong outclasses Dialga on balance teams, just as Dialga outclasses Bronzong on offense teams. I originally picked up on this inconsistency when skimming through the rankings and seeing that two Pokémon so similar in their role and reliability of execution were ranked with such disparity, and it is of my belief that the rest of our community is willing to make this correction as well.

P.S. Why would you run Skill Swap if you aren't running Stealth Rock lmop.
 
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Cynara

Banned deucer.
Im comparing Bronzong to Dialga, because you compared it to dialga initially; and I disagree, Dialga Balances do thrive in the tier, especially ones that would require a consistent rocker and where the mence weakness needs to be justified and you can cover elsewhere for xern, so I fail to see your point; it just leads to different compositions for balance teams. I dont think Bronzong is even worth mentioning as a Rocker because its inconsistent af and doesn't hold the qualities to efficiently get rocks up like Dialga can and saying Bronzong offenses don't exist, cause they evidently do because players use them (see Lucos HO for an example) and they don't achieve what they need in the tier. Even if it does fit a balance build as rocker I would still consider a build that uses a offensive rocks donner, because of the reasons I listed above.

To answer your question about Skill Swap, Bronzong has little options to cover in its moves. and skill swap can be useful in some specific situations. I.E swapping Aerilate away from mence or escaping gengar in a pinch.
 
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EQ Kyogre is a pretty good independent mon not too hampered by pdon (generally 2hkos? I'm not sure, just going off experience).

Also it hits lati@s super hard and isn't really bothered by anything that special ogre wouldn't be worried with outside of fat waters-- bold ogre and Waterceus. Bold ogre still takes a decent amount from waterfall, and waterceus dislikes taking a twave (and can be paraflinched because it can't burn ogre and takes a fair amount from waterfall as well). I think the tradeoff of being able to smoothly 2hko non-support pdon and hit latios hard as hell is worth not using special ogre sometimes.
 

Fireburn

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Bronzong's main issue is that it still faces very strict competition with Klefki, namely because Bronzong can't use Spikes or check Dark-types. Not being able to check Dark-types is rather important with the rise of Thunder Darkrai. Bronzong is also more vulnerable to trapping, being both weak to Mega Gengar's STAB and Pursuit, whereas Gar won't usually tango with Klefki due to the threat of Thunder Wave. Klefki is still usually better on balance teams for this reason.

While Bronzong can set up Stealth Rock vs Mega Sableye teams with Skill Swap, it will usually get burned/heavily damaged in the attempt which will likely prevent it from being able to keep them up during the course of a game. It is good at keeping up SR against Diancie teams (or teams without Bouncers), but against Mega Sableye it does struggle pretty hard.

It's fine where it is imo. I could see it potentially going to the bottom of A- but A is way overselling it and it has clear flaws (vulnerable to trapping, low offense, Klefki exists).

You might suddenly find yourself needing to find new ways to cover for variants of Xerneas, Arceus-Normal, Deoxys-Attack, Arceus-Ground, Mega Diancie, Rayquaza, Latios, Landorus-T, Excadrill, Mega Kangaskhan...
Nitpick, but you should never ever count on Bronzong to check EKiller (they all pretty much use Shadow Claw nowadays), Mega Kangaskhan (Crunch), or Rayquaza (CB Ascent does too much damage and Gyro Ball doesn't OHKO -2 Def Rayquaza after SR...).

Also @ Cranham, Skill Swap basically IS entirely for getting SR vs Mega Sableye, trolling Salamence is just a convenient side effect. If you really don't want to bother with SR, use Hidden Power Ice so you can actually touch Salamence. Though using Bronzong without SR is mostly pointless and you can try to compensate for it by using a Groudon set that can bring down Lugia...
 
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hyw

Banned deucer.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Both may be Steel-types finding themselves checking an S-rank threat in Xerneas, but Bronzong is closer to Dialga in nature due to them being Stealth Rockers on balance and offense, respectively. Klefki doesn't even have access to this in the first place; this is a huge point of distinction between the two. Therefore, I find its inability to set up Spikes or check Dark-types rather arbitrary; can't you say the same about Klefki's inability to set up Stealth Rocks (which is mandatory, unlike Spikes), or its inability to check Ground-type attackers?

This is why I'm not comparing Bronzong to Klefki, nor would I ever propose the former to be ranked as more viable than the latter; Prankster Thunder Wave with a Steel/Fairy-typing is indeed quite extraordinary, and Klefki is often the go-to Darkrai and Yveltal check on balance teams, an equally vital asset as the hazards Klefki is unable to provide that Bronzong and Dialga can. Everybody agrees with you on this. But using this point in order to downplay Bronzong's effectiveness at performing its role is no more absurd than critiquing Dialga for its inability to set up Spikes or check Darkrai and Yveltal.

Mega Gengar is indeed a problem for Bronzong, but like Arceus-Water ranked in A+, it doesn't go down without a fight. While it can't Prankster Thunder Wave it, Gyro Ball 2HKOs, so Mega Gengar hesitates to switch in to it directly. Thus, if a safe switch-in is required to trap Bronzong, then Bronzong itself is no weaker to Mega Gengar than the rest of the tier purportedly "weak" to Mega Gengar; this includes Dialga (252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dialga: 320-378 (93.8 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). Pursuit isn't a compelling argument, too, seeing how uncommon Tyranitar and Aegislash are these days; in tournament play I'd be less surprised to see Deoxys-Attack catching some stuff, originally intended to trap Mega Gengar fleeing Psycho Boost, but even then, Bronzong takes not much from Pursuit and proceeds to KO if you just stay in. I also find these arguments about Mega Sableye are pretty moot since it's so rare as well, but even then, you set up Stealth Rocks and Arceus-Water (all Defog Arceus, in fact) fails to Defog against you so there's that. And, again, you are correct; Bronzong does indeed succeed in setting up Stealth Rocks and keeping them up, which is what makes it equal in viability to Dialga, all the while checking more offensive threats than you could count on your fingers.

In listing said threats I was assuming you've already scouted. Some Arceus may run Stone Edge, some Mega Kangaskhan may run Ice/Ground coverage or Sucker Punch over Crunch, some Rayquaza may run Life Orb or Charti Berry with no Fire-type coverage; conversely, Arceus-Ground beats it with Gravity as its fourth move, but ultimately, the point is that Bronzong has a decent chance at blocking many of these offensive threats from running rampant. The responsibility to cover for different variants of said threats is subsequently shifted to the remaining five Pokémon on your team, as is the case with every other Pokémon meant to check such an area of the metagame at once, especially Steel-types, in addition to the player themselves.

This is my reflection on your comments about Bronzong within the context of the metagame. You raised great points guys, discussion is healthy for everyone!
 

Fireburn

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You are comparing apples to oranges. Both may be Steel-types finding themselves checking an S-rank threat in Xerneas, but Bronzong is closer to Dialga in nature due to them being Stealth Rockers on balance and offense, respectively. Klefki doesn't even have access to this in the first place; this is a huge point of distinction between the two. Therefore, I find its inability to set up Spikes or check Dark-types rather arbitrary; can't you say the same about Klefki's inability to set up Stealth Rocks (which is mandatory, unlike Spikes), or its inability to check Ground-type attackers?
Um...no? Bronzong is not closer to Dialga because Bronzong lacks offense and generally sucks on heavy offense teams due to being a huge momentum suck. Their functions are only superficially similar because they go on different kinds of teams. This is something you admitted yourself in your original response to Cranham. Klefki and Bronzong are both defensive Steel-types that find their home on balance teams, ergo they directly compete for the same teamslot. They are much more directly comparable. You would use one or the other on a balance team, but neither fits well on the heavy offense teams you'd generally want Dialga for. You're actually the one comparing apples to oranges here.

(As an aside, if you did want to compare Bronzong and Dialga...a key distinction is that Dialga actually checks Salamence, does better against Rayquaza than Bronzong, and is more reliable at keeping up hazards due to actually having offense.)

How are Spikes and checking Dark-types arbitrary? They are distinct advantages Klefki has over Bronzong. It is harder to come by solid Darkrai checks than Ground checks in this metagame. You're not actually countering the point I proposed, you're just flipping the question without addressing it.

This is why I'm not comparing Bronzong to Klefki, nor would I ever propose the former to be ranked as more viable than the latter; Prankster Thunder Wave with a Steel/Fairy-typing is indeed quite extraordinary, and Klefki is often the go-to Darkrai and Yveltal check on balance teams, an equally vital asset as the hazards Klefki is unable to provide that Bronzong and Dialga can. Everybody agrees with you on this. But using this point in order to downplay Bronzong's effectiveness at performing its role is no more absurd than critiquing Dialga for its inability to set up Spikes or check Darkrai and Yveltal.
Again, you have to compare Bronzong with Klefki because they compete for the same teamslot on the same style of team. Dialga goes on an entirely different type of team, so they aren't really directly comparable. Klefki's ability to check Dark-types is extremely valuable for balance since they generally have a harder time fitting solid Dark checks than Ground checks. This combined with Spikes for hazard-stacking strategies, the much lower likelihood of Klefki getting trapped by Gengar, and Prankster Thunder Wave to emergency check almost anything makes Klefki generally more attractive as a role-compressor, ergo it is more likely to get picked for a teamslot. These are valid points against Bronzong when Darkrai is already a huge issue for balance and Primal Groudon is already a built-in quality SR user for most balance teams.

You've actually described why Klefki tends to be a better choice on balance teams most of the time in this paragraph lol.

Mega Gengar is indeed a problem for Bronzong, but like Arceus-Water ranked in A+, it doesn't go down without a fight. While it can't Prankster Thunder Wave it, Gyro Ball 2HKOs, so Mega Gengar hesitates to switch in to it directly. Thus, if a safe switch-in is required to trap Bronzong, then Bronzong itself is no weaker to Mega Gengar than the rest of the tier purportedly "weak" to Mega Gengar; this includes Dialga (252 SpA Mega Gengar Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dialga: 320-378 (93.8 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). Pursuit isn't a compelling argument, too, seeing how uncommon Tyranitar and Aegislash are these days; in tournament play I'd be less surprised to see Deoxys-Attack catching some stuff, originally intended to trap Mega Gengar fleeing Psycho Boost, but even then, Bronzong takes not much from Pursuit and proceeds to KO if you just stay in. I also find these arguments about Mega Sableye are pretty moot since it's so rare as well, but even then, you set up Stealth Rocks and Arceus-Water (all Defog Arceus, in fact) fails to Defog against you so there's that. And, again, you are correct; Bronzong does indeed succeed in setting up Stealth Rocks and keeping them up, which is what makes it equal in viability to Dialga, all the while checking more offensive threats than you could count on your fingers.
Fwiw, Mega Gengar can actually switch directly in on Gyro Ball, survive the next one with Wisp or Hypnosis, and then one-shot you with Hex. Or it can just kill you with Shadow Balla fter you've switched into Xerneas or Salamence once. If Bronzong uses any move but Gyro Ball when Gengar comes in, its dead. So yes, it is a bit more vulnerable to getting picked off by Gengar than your average mon.

Tyranitar is still decently common last time I checked. They admittedly don't Pursuit much anymore, but the risk is still there. Bronzong can't even 2HKO it with Gyro Ball. Mega Sableye is still decently common as well (#25 on Ubers Open usage list, ~60% win rate as of this post) and is a legitimate threat to Bronzong, it would be wrong to so easily dismiss it.

I'm going to ignore the Dialga comparison since I just explained earlier they are not comparable in the same way Bronzong is comparable to Klefki.

In listing said threats I was assuming you've already scouted. Some Arceus may run Stone Edge, some Mega Kangaskhan may run Ice/Ground coverage or Sucker Punch over Crunch, some Rayquaza may run Life Orb or Charti Berry with no Fire-type coverage; conversely, Arceus-Ground beats it with Gravity as its fourth move, but ultimately, the point is that Bronzong has a decent chance at blocking many of these offensive threats from running rampant.
By the time you realize EKiller is lacking Shadow Claw and you bother to send in Bronzong, you've probably already lost. Arceus also can just boost to +4 and twoshot you with ESpeed before you can actually kill it.

Adamant Return is fairly close to a 3HKO on Bronzong, who lacks recovery and can only threaten with Toxic. It is not a Kangaskhan check (or at least a very crappy one).

Rayquaza is a fair point. Bronzong does not have "a decent chance" at beating EKiller or Kangaskhan though.

Anyway...at the end of the day, Bronzong isn't comparable to anything in A rank. It is a good Pokemon, but it has defined, significant flaws and heavy competition for its teamslot. It is fine where it is.
 

hyw

Banned deucer.
Um...no? Bronzong is not closer to Dialga because Bronzong lacks offense and generally sucks on heavy offense teams due to being a huge momentum suck. Their functions are only superficially similar because they go on different kinds of teams. This is something you admitted yourself in your original response to Cranham. Klefki and Bronzong are both defensive Steel-types that find their home on balance teams, ergo they directly compete for the same teamslot. They are much more directly comparable. You would use one or the other on a balance team, but neither fits well on the heavy offense teams you'd generally want Dialga for. You're actually the one comparing apples to oranges here.

(As an aside, if you did want to compare Bronzong and Dialga...a key distinction is that Dialga actually checks Salamence, does better against Rayquaza than Bronzong, and is more reliable at keeping up hazards due to actually having offense.)

How are Spikes and checking Dark-types arbitrary? They are distinct advantages Klefki has over Bronzong. It is harder to come by solid Darkrai checks than Ground checks in this metagame. You're not actually countering the point I proposed, you're just flipping the question without addressing it
1. Every team needs a Stealth Rocker. Every team needs Primal Groudon. It is a popular option to designate it as the Stealth Rocker. But Primal Groudon is much more versatile than being every team's Stealth Rock slave; it gets Swords Dance, Substitute, Thunder Wave, Rock Polish, Rest + Sleep Talk, and so on. So, if one wishes to take advantage of said moves, what would the next step be? Finding a Stealth Rocker for the team. Look at the Pokémon listed from S rank to, say, B-. I see four options: Deoxys-Speed and Excadrill for hyper offense, Dialga and Tyranitar for bulky offense, and Mega Diancie and Bronzong for balance. Ignoring hyper offense, Stealth Rock Tyranitar is niche in that it should only be used with its partner in Sand Rush Excadrill, and Mega Diancie takes up a Mega slot, therefore these two Stealth Rock users are quite restrictive to the rest of the team-building process. This leaves us with Dialga for bulky offense and Bronzong for balance. Choosing either limits you to the bounds of their respective play-styles, but ultimately, the choice of one over the other opens up a different set of doors. Dialga allows you to play much more offensively with the likes of Geomancy Xerneas and Mega Salamence at the cost of being unable to use Pokémon that kill momentum, whilst Bronzong allows you to play much more balanced to synergize with Pokémon like Mega Gengar and Arceus-Dragon.

2. Their similarities aren't superficial; the fact that these two Pokémon are equally viable candidates in the team-building process as a team's Stealth Rocker, yet are separated by about two ranks-worth space, is bizarre. Moreover, what I "admitted" to has to do with "Bronzong [lacking] offense and generally [sucking] on heavy offense teams due to being a huge momentum suck" in that, while this is indeed true, I am agreeing with you, heavy offense is not the only archetype available to build with, so the fact that Bronzong sucks on offense speaks not of its viability only unless you wish to pretend that slower and bulkier balance builds just don't exist.

3. Saying that "Klefki and Bronzong...directly compete for the same teamslot" is the aspect of your counterargument I take most issue with. This is flat-out false, yet you seem to take no issue with using it as a blanket condition to invalidate my argument. So, let's be clear: you choose to add the former to your team as a check to Darkrai, Yveltal, Xerneas, Mega Salamence and so on. On the other hand, you choose to add the latter to your team as, first and foremost, a Stealth Rocker able to both set them up and keep them up with reliance, as well as a check to Xerneas, Arceus-Ground, and so on.

Finally, let's describe Dialga in the same fashion: you choose to add this to your team as a Stealth Rocker able to set them up with reliance, as well as a check to Mega Salamence.

Further, this is all without mentioning that Klefki has no room for Spikes if it truly wishes to check Xerneas as both Thunder Wave and Heal Block are required, and Dialga fails to keep Stealth Rocks up as reliably as Bronzong due to the existences of Defog Arceus-Ground and Rapid Spin Sand Rush Excadrill.

I believe our point of contention lies in the fact that I equate Bronzong to Dialga because these two are the best non-Primal Groudon Stealth Rock setters on balance and bulky offense, respectively, whereas you equate Bronzong to Klefki upon the sole basis that the two share similar typings.

Subsequently, the bulk of your post dismisses my argument on the above basis, and the rest consist mostly of nitpicks. To address a few things: if Bronzong uses either Skill Swap or Trickroom on the Mega Gengar switch, it evades being Shadow Tag bait, and what you said about Bronzong can be said of Dialga, too, at -2, something not uncommon due to its two other moves being specialised coverage for Magic Bouncers and Defoggers. Also, never had I suggested for Bronzong to be any team's designated check to Extreme Killer Arceus or Kangaskhan; I was simply bringing attention to the fact that all of these offensive threats have numerous viable sets, and that Bronzong has an easy time walling the favorable variants as long as you can identify it correctly.

P.S. It's literally the first round of the Open, those usage statistics and win rates are unscientific, you should know that. On the contrary, according to the 1760-and-above Ubers ladder's usage statistics as of July (http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-07/moveset/ubers-1760.txt), 26% of Mega Kangaskhan ran Crunch and 59% of Extreme Killer Arceus ran Shadow Claw.
 
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Fireburn

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1. Every team needs a Stealth Rocker. Every team needs Primal Groudon. It is a popular option to designate it as the Stealth Rocker. But Primal Groudon is much more versatile than being every team's Stealth Rock slave; it gets Swords Dance, Substitute, Thunder Wave, Rock Polish, Rest + Sleep Talk, and so on. So, if one wishes to take advantage of said moves, what would the next step be? Finding a Stealth Rocker for the team. Look at the Pokémon listed from S rank to, say, B-. I see four options: Deoxys-Speed and Excadrill for hyper offense, Dialga and Tyranitar for bulky offense, and Mega Diancie and Bronzong for balance. Ignoring hyper offense, Stealth Rock Tyranitar is niche in that it should only be used with its partner in Sand Rush Excadrill, and Mega Diancie takes up a Mega slot, therefore these two Stealth Rock users are quite restrictive to the rest of the team-building process. This leaves us with Dialga for bulky offense and Bronzong for balance. Choosing either limits you to the bounds of their respective play-styles, but ultimately, the choice of one over the other opens up a different set of doors. Dialga allows you to play much more offensively with partners like Geomancy Xerneas and Mega Salamence at the cost of being unable to use Pokémon that kill momentum, whilst Bronzong allows you to play much more balanced to synergize with Pokémon like Mega Gengar and Arceus-Dragon.
What is your point? We both know this already. This offers no new argument.

3. Saying that "Klefki and Bronzong...directly compete for the same teamslot" is the aspect of your counterargument I take most issue with. This is flat-out false, yet you seem to take no issue with using it as a blanket condition to invalidate my argument. So, let's be clear: you choose to add the former to your team as a check to Darkrai, Yveltal, Xerneas, Mega Salamence and so on. On the other hand, you choose to add the latter to your team as, first and foremost, a Stealth Rocker able to both set them up and keep them up with reliance, as well as a check to Xerneas, Arceus-Ground, and so on.
They're both bulky Steel-types (primarily Xerneas checks) that set up hazards and fit on balanced teams. How can they not be comparable when they compete for the same teamslot? Dialga isn't the one going on balanced teams, Klefki or Bronzong is.

Finally, let's describe Dialga in the same fashion: you choose to add this to your team as a Stealth Rocker able to set them up with reliance, as well as a check to Mega Salamence.
Yes. On an offense team. You're disregarding the archetypes you would generally find these Pokemon on.

Further, this is all without mentioning that Klefki has no room for Spikes if it truly wishes to check Xerneas as both Thunder Wave and Heal Block are required, and Dialga fails to keep Stealth Rocks up as reliably as Bronzong due to the existences of Defog Arceus-Ground and Rapid Spin Sand Rush Excadrill.
This is incorrect. Toxic is the move you would give up if you really want Heal Block for Rest Xerneas. You just Spike on Ground-type switch-ins instead. Besides, Heal Block isn't even required.

The Dialga statement is also ridiculous since Defog Arceus-Ground is even less common than Mega Sableye and standard Bronzong actually loses to Excadrill too since it doesn't carry Earthquake.

I believe our point of contention lies in the fact that I equate Bronzong to Dialga because these two are the best non-Primal Groudon Stealth Rock setters on balance and bulky offense, respectively, whereas you equate Bronzong to Klefki upon the sole basis that the two share similar typings.
The only thing this statement establishes is that you didn't read anything I said. I equate Bronzong to Klefki because they both fulfill the role of "bulky hazard-setting Steel" on the same team archetype. They compete for a teamslot because the niche they fulfill (Dragon check, Xerneas check, hazards) is similar. Dialga goes on offense. They are all unique, but Bronzong isn't competing with Dialga for a slot on balance teams, its competing with Klefki. That's why you compare Bronzong and Klefki. I don't know how I can make this clearer.

P.S. It's literally the first round of the Open, those usage statistics and win rates are unscientific, you should know that. On the contrary, according to the 1760-and-above Ubers ladder's usage statistics as of July (http://www.smogon.com/stats/2016-07/moveset/ubers-1760.txt), 26% of Mega Kangaskhan ran Crunch and 59% of Extreme Killer Arceus ran Shadow Claw.
I'm pretty sure Round 1 of Ubers Open is still more competitive than any given ladder match.

2. Their similarities aren't superficial; the fact that these two Pokémon are equally viable candidates in the team-building process as a team's Stealth Rocker, yet are separated by about two ranks-worth space, is bizarre. Moreover, what I "admitted" to has to do with "Bronzong [lacking] offense and generally [sucking] on heavy offense teams due to being a huge momentum suck" in that, while this is indeed true, I am agreeing with you, heavy offense is not the only archetype available to build with, so the fact that Bronzong sucks on offense speaks not of its viability only unless you wish to pretend that slower and bulkier balance builds just don't exist.
It seems like the main reason you want to put Bronzong in A rank is because Dialga is there. That's basically what your argument boils down to. That doesn't work because they aren't comparable Pokemon (nor is it comparable to any other Pokemon in A rank for that matter). Bronzong is more comparable to Klefki, but lacks many of the qualities that make Klefki such a good role-compressor (Spikes as extra hazard, priority Thunder Wave to not be setup bait for anything/check almost everything, Dark resist, defensive Steel that can ward off Gengar), and I'd say the sheer competition it faces from keys is enough to hold it down in B+ rank.
 
erronously conflating pdon usage with pogre existence aside, hyw's view of these steel type pkmn is very myopic. lbr for a second: bronzong requires way more in game finesse than any other these other steel types. opposing groudon require scouting, darkrai becomes far more problematic, and it's generally way less of a balance toss-on than klefki will ever be. klefki is pretty easy to pop on a squad to be a beatstick stopper. darkrai is the most offensively op mon in this tier imo and having bronzong means that u are immediately on the backfoot against it. anecdotally speaking, tossing together zong teams feels kinda hamhanded just bc u need to fill the void (ha). often, this leads u to pkmn like choiced / resttalk xerneas and then the ghetto ho-oh cvrg transpires. dialga requires a lot less finesse and is a nearly foolproof offensive stop to what u have it for in the builder: salamence + water resist + beatstick. i mean shit, flash cannon aint even necessary and u can drop it like its hot with a status or even fire blast. moreover, dialga is featured on the squad that is becoming and should be the standard ho team in ubers and that in itself is a huge deal.

vastly underrating spikes, overrating the leeway u get vs xern + sr compared to other mons, and overlooking dialga's footing in the meta atm is why i don't think u are on fleek wit dis post.

just my 2 cents tho since it is a 2 cents concept. aint need a dolla henry
 
Nitpick, but you should never ever count on Bronzong to check EKiller (they all pretty much use Shadow Claw nowadays), Mega Kangaskhan (Crunch), or Rayquaza (CB Ascent does too much damage and Gyro Ball doesn't OHKO -2 Def Rayquaza after SR...).

0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (125 BP) vs. -2 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza: 267-315 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


Also is there any reason drag-ceus is below waterceus? Imo dragceus is always a superior defogger due to being able to hit ho-oh (kinda), Salamence, Pdon, and ogre all in one slot, and the only niche waterceus has are ice beam + judgment sets which is imo not enough to separate them by 2 ranks

Also it's worth mentioning ferrothorn could be moved up a rank because it has better defensive capabilities than klefki (minus the ability to check darkrai and priority twave of course which is huge) and isn't as easily trapped by gengar as something like bronzong would be. Checking pogre is probably the biggest niche ferro has as no other defensive steel can do that, but also the barbs damage is pretty nice and it's a better check to ekiller than both klefki and zong. Leech seed of course is also super nice. I think ferrothorn is a pretty viable option currently for a defensive steel D:
 
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Aberforth

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Worse matchups vs Klefki, Diancie and Xerneas mainly. It doesn't take on anything better than Waterceus really aside from the likes of skymin, who preys on all supportceus anyway, and hitting Pdon with Judgment is good, but not enough to make up for the worse matchups vs Ho-oh and the aforementioned Fairies. Also has a worse matchup vs all steels, Waterceus doesn't particularly want to take them on either but it doesn't invite them in nearly as frequently. Finally Waterceus has a better defensive typing to take on things like Deo-A and Mewtwo because it isn't weak to Ice Beam.
 

Fireburn

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0 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (125 BP) vs. -2 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza: 267-315 (76 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Uh...what item are you using? The calc gives me this:

4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (87 BP) vs. -2 0 HP / 4 Def Rayquaza: 186-220 (52.9 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

?_?
 
IVs aren't a thing on the smogon dex yet so the calc won't have IVs either.

As for an update, the Ubers QC team had a discussion on mons that the community believes have fallen out of favor since the time of their analysis. These mons were Clefable, Metagross, and Tentacruel. You can read the more indepth reasoning from different members starting here to the bottom of the page. There have also been some inconsistencies with the rankings, namely analyses and placement on the rankings not matching up, and this update will solve those as well as give a better guideline on when something can be removed.

The idea is that the Ubers QC team will be the ones to decide the fate of a mon that the community believes has fallen out of favor since its addition to the rankings, as we were the team that approved the analysis for it. Approving and removing analyses (only removed from the smogon dex, not deleted from the forums) are not a thing to take lightly as they take a good amount of time for everyone involved to complete. Generally these cases will be rare, and I highly doubt this will happen again until SM. Metagross was already removed from the rankings a while ago, but the analysis will follow shortly.

Update List:

Tentacruel: C+ >>> Unranked
Clefable: Re-added to C
(Above Arceus-Poison)

As for the future of this thread, the mods have some better ideas for this thread to improve how it currently functions. The next update will likely use these ideas and will also take from the current discussion going on, hence why there are no changes related to them in this update. Expect more details shortly.
 

Lacus Clyne

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Shaymin-S: B+ -> B (between Arceus-Fairy and Zekrom)
Although Shaymin-S has some good niches with outspeeding Darkrai and access to Healing Wish it has some major flaws:
- Can't switch-in at all (Stall teams are excluded)
- Hates Status
- Hard to fit into a team
- Gets killed by priority moves quite often thanks to the low 75 Def
- Doesn't work in the current meta
- 25% damage from SR
 
Arceus-Rock: B+ -> A-
I feel this pokemon, of all b+ has way more viability if compared to the other pokemons (Shaymin lmao). Being a checker to salamence, ho-oh a nice defogger and at the same time a pivot in handy situations makes him in pair with the other A-.
 

hyw

Banned deucer.
Arceus-Dragon is a better option if you want something to check Ho-Oh, Mega Salamence, and Defog all at the same time; it doesn't even check the two that well since it's weak to Earthquake. Arceus-Rock is better off using Will-O-Wisp and Calm Mind to check things mid-game whilst aiming for a sweep late-game, and this set requires tons of team support to work and is underwhelming, red flags when examining an Arceus form's footing in the metagame. Furthermore, an Arceus form weak against Primal Groudon without outstanding redeeming qualities is undeserving of placement in the A rank.

Also, I +1 Lacus's nomination and wouldn't mind seeing Shaymin-Sky placed even lower; it was somewhat viable early during ORAS when the metagame was undeveloped thanks to cheesy strats like Toxic Spikes flinching and clutch Healing Wish, but due to its Stealth Rock weakness and paper-thin frailty it no longer fits on any competent teams lol
 
Arceus-Dragon is a better option if you want something to check Ho-Oh, Mega Salamence, and Defog all at the same time; it doesn't even check the two that well since it's weak to Earthquake. Arceus-Rock is better off using Will-O-Wisp and Calm Mind to check things mid-game whilst aiming for a sweep late-game, and this set requires tons of team support to work and is underwhelming, red flags when examining an Arceus form's footing in the metagame. Furthermore, an Arceus form weak against Primal Groudon without outstanding redeeming qualities is undeserving of placement in the A rank.

Also, I +1 Lacus's nomination and wouldn't mind seeing Shaymin-Sky placed even lower; it was somewhat viable early during ORAS when the metagame was undeveloped thanks to cheesy strats like Toxic Spikes flinching and clutch Healing Wish, but due to its Stealth Rock weakness and paper-thin frailty it no longer fits on any competent teams lol
Yeah honestly I think Skymin is worse than all the mons in B+ and B rank.
 
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