Yeah because checking a mon in C+ rank alone totally justifies using a mon
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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)
- Thread starter Nayrz
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I suppose. But if the ladder starts using kyurem-w a lot we can use poisonceus to check it, and blame MS
just fyi you might be missing the meme
Arceus-Poison is not on the same level as Arceus-Fire, Bug, or Psychic, which are all completely unusable. You can actually get this thing onto a serious team. If anything should drop it should be Arceus-Steel. It caries many of the drawbacks of Arceus-Poison except that it can't check offensive Xern and fares even worse against the Primals.
Why are the Latis in the same tier? Shouldn't Latias be slightly higher? Their primarily role seems to be defogging and checking the primals. and Latias has the better bulk so she's able to defogger more consistently. Latios does have a better attack star yea but thanks to Soul Dew Latias is still able to hit really hard anyway.
latios nabs KOs that latias doesn't (e.g offensive pdon, something absolutely crucial). conversely, latias tanks hits that latios doesn't (e.g sd arceus ground +2 stone edge). healing wish and memento are relatively comparable moves, albeit on different ends of the offense/defense spectrum. one isn't outright better than the other 99% of the time, it comes down to the individual and the team they find themselves in candidacy for.
1. Kyurem-W is a de fact B~ rank mon and its drop was met with harsh criticism so expect it to raise back where it belongs after the next userbase shift.
2. Kyu-W commonly runs Earth Power so Poisonceus isn't reliably checking it.
Literally everyone but yourself has arrived to the consensus of dropping Kyurem-W, so unless you're saying the "harsh criticism" is exclusively from yourself I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
Ice STAB is cool as hell but when you consider that Zekrom breaks much of the same things Kyurem-W does (which is to say Kyurem-W can be mere overkill) and can check things like POgre and MMence (with Shuca), insinuating that Kyurem-W be on the same level of Zekrom is already pretty absurd. Kyurem-W doesn't even outperform Arceus-Ice, who, while sharing the terrible defensive typing that prevents it from entering battle safely at all, at least has Speed and Calm Mind on its side to not get forced out nearly as often as Kyurem-W.
I've never seen so many things wrong in a single sentence in all my time on Smogon.
Firstly: Kyu-W! Why do we need to talk about a mediocre Deo-A? Literally the ONLY THING this is good for is receiving a SmashPass (although when it does it's downright terrifying O.O). It's not switching into anything that it can actually force out, and its not breaking anything that Deo-A couldn't.
Secondly: Earth Power! If, for whatever reason, you've decided to make a team featuring the slob of garbage that is Kyu-W, there is absolutely no scenario you should run Earth Power. It doesn't even OHKO PDon after SR.... the only coverage you should ever run on Kyu-W is Ice Beam / Fusion Flare / Draco Meteor / Stone Edge, or if you're running it as a SmashPass recipient (which you should be), replace the latter two with Dragon Pulse (or a coverage move) and Ancient Power respectively.
Last: Poisonceus! Not only is that thing one of the few mons capable to claim the honor of being even worse than Kyu-W, it is absolutely and completely irrelevant, and no amount of insanely stupid quotes from a user who brought both of these shit mons to a UPL match will change that fact.
One thing I've noticed a lot with your posts is that they portray an "above the usual trash" mentality, yet I've never seen you do anything relevant to Ubers outside of posting in this thread. You've been told multiple, MULTIPLE times by players with far more patience than I that Kyurem-White is not nearly as good as you try to make it out to be. Kyurem-White is a bad mon whose current rank is GENEROUS to its standing in the metagame, and if it's moving anywhere from aforementioned current rank, it will be down.
edit: MY POINT STILL STANDS :<
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Wait, how is Kyurem-W a worse Deoxys-A? Both mons seems incomparable to me considering that they have completely different qualities and flaws. A better comparison in my opinion would be Ho-oh since it's general role is similar to Kyurem-W and it shares similar qualities and flaws with Kyurem-W, but it has many traits that significantly mitigate its flaws unlike Kyurem-W.
Deoxys-A can run coverage far more relevant to Ubers, as well as even Pursuit trap - I compare them both as their primary role in the metagame is to absolutely destroy any possible switch in, be it with Draco Meteor off of a 170 SpA or with Psycho boost off of 180. Sure, they aren't DIRECTLY comparable in that one is a glass cannon and one is a slightly thicker glass cannon, but the role they end up fulfilling on a given team remains the same.
Also, Ho-oh is significantly better at its job, while having a lot more bulk and regenerator to compensate for the stealth rock weakness, using that bulk to successfully check a fair few really dangerous special attackers very effectively.
EDIT: Also, Kyurem-W's niche is hit things hard providing no defensive utility. Deoxys-A does that a lot better, while arguably checking more things and offering more team support with stealth rock, pursuit and other options.
EDIT: Also, Kyurem-W's niche is hit things hard providing no defensive utility. Deoxys-A does that a lot better, while arguably checking more things and offering more team support with stealth rock, pursuit and other options.
deoxys-a can't take a hit at all lol, it doesn't entirely outclass kyu-w. 125/90/100 is honestly decent bulk and checking off p-ogre isn't too shabby either. also, the fact that kyurem-w is a solid smashpass recipient should keep it in C+. i mean no way in hell is it worse than alomomola lol
edit: what smeargle isn't ranked? it's the only smashpass user (gorebyss sucks) with access to Spore and Taunt which means it has a decent niche even though it's quite hard to pull off. C+
also, lando should rise back to C- where it was. decent offensive check to p-don, is able to outspeed mence pre-mega and land a HP Ice which will always OHKO, and do 85% to Xern w/ sludge wave. you can also use moves such as knock off for a bit of utility (aka severely damage lati@s on the switch and remove lugia's lefties plus geoxern's power herb) or rock slide to OHKO ho-oh. this pokemon is better than giratina-A imo and should rise.
edit: what smeargle isn't ranked? it's the only smashpass user (gorebyss sucks) with access to Spore and Taunt which means it has a decent niche even though it's quite hard to pull off. C+
also, lando should rise back to C- where it was. decent offensive check to p-don, is able to outspeed mence pre-mega and land a HP Ice which will always OHKO, and do 85% to Xern w/ sludge wave. you can also use moves such as knock off for a bit of utility (aka severely damage lati@s on the switch and remove lugia's lefties plus geoxern's power herb) or rock slide to OHKO ho-oh. this pokemon is better than giratina-A imo and should rise.
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Why are we talking about Kyurem-W again ;w;
Consensus was that it's offensive presence simply isn't enough to outweigh its huge defensive flaws to the point where having this mon on your team is going to result in you having a flawed defensive strategy to deal with something because you only have 5 slots for team members that actually have some utility defensively.
On the subject of something else, what do people think of Mewtwo now, specifically MMY? I find it really hard to justify using this thing, as while its a decent balance breaker, it again falls into the trap of struggling to offer much defensively outside of checking certain offensive threats thanks to its Speed tier. It also takes up a Mega slot where in a lot of cases I'd rather use regular LO Mewtwo+Mence or Gar and I'm not sure it's worth the tradeoff.
Consensus was that it's offensive presence simply isn't enough to outweigh its huge defensive flaws to the point where having this mon on your team is going to result in you having a flawed defensive strategy to deal with something because you only have 5 slots for team members that actually have some utility defensively.
On the subject of something else, what do people think of Mewtwo now, specifically MMY? I find it really hard to justify using this thing, as while its a decent balance breaker, it again falls into the trap of struggling to offer much defensively outside of checking certain offensive threats thanks to its Speed tier. It also takes up a Mega slot where in a lot of cases I'd rather use regular LO Mewtwo+Mence or Gar and I'm not sure it's worth the tradeoff.
In practice it's insanely hard to justify m2 variants over either cm 3atks latios or life orb deo-a. That's mainly because both provide more defensive value, latios as a soft ogre+pdon check and deo-a with espeed (or even pursuit). I've tried building with mewtwo and generally I found it a better idea to just do some restructuring and use other mons (like those 2). A benefit of m2 is that you can use it as a standalone mon; I would always recommend using something to abuse weakened steel types such as geomancy xerneas if you're using latios or deo-a. M2 outright kills steel types so there's no need to offensively take advantage of weakened steel types, and no need to defensively consider the way checks will pressure you back because, unless you're counting yveltal which is not all that common, it's really hard to check, let alone switch in mewtwo (same goes for deo-a which can run ib as well but eh). It can easily overload mons like ghosteus and other one-time checks to it so you can take advantage of that. It's a good pokemon for sure because of how it plays offensively but yeah it should drop to A-
That team with deo-a and mewtwo that either steel or problems built is pretty slick but it just goes to show that using mewtwo will give you a hard time defensively (no ground switch-in, ho-oh weak after a defog, ekiller weak etc). On the other hand it also proves that m2 can pull its weight while being lacklustre defensively.
inb4 comments about how kyuw=m2, kyuw to b+ again plsz!!1
That team with deo-a and mewtwo that either steel or problems built is pretty slick but it just goes to show that using mewtwo will give you a hard time defensively (no ground switch-in, ho-oh weak after a defog, ekiller weak etc). On the other hand it also proves that m2 can pull its weight while being lacklustre defensively.
inb4 comments about how kyuw=m2, kyuw to b+ again plsz!!1
Arceus Ground A>A+: One of the rare offensive Arceus types to switch in Primal Groudon without fearing Thunder wave and being able to deal massive damage in return. When paired with Latias it forms a really solid way to deal with Primal Groudon for offensively oriented teams as well as a dangerous sweeper in this metagame if needed that finds multiple occasions to set up and sweep.
Arceus Water A->A: The best support Arceus form. Can Defog reliably and check most physically offensive threats to different degrees like Salamence, Non Swords Dance Primal Groudon, Ho-oh, Arceus Ground and others like Mega Diancie and Primal Kyogre. Deserve a place higher than the mons it's placed with.
Arceus Water A->A: The best support Arceus form. Can Defog reliably and check most physically offensive threats to different degrees like Salamence, Non Swords Dance Primal Groudon, Ho-oh, Arceus Ground and others like Mega Diancie and Primal Kyogre. Deserve a place higher than the mons it's placed with.
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Giratina-O B+> A- : It is able to check Primal Groudon which is the best mon in the tier. It also is able to check E-Killer, Arceus Ground, Kangaskhan, Blaziken, Genesect without Ice Beam. It can reliably defog because Gengar cant trap it due to its Ghost Typing, can burn physical attackers with wow, can Dragon Tail out opposing mons that try to set up (expect Xerneas) and has priority for Deoxys-A (if its sash isn't intact or it is a LO set) and weakend Mega Gengar. The only thing that isn't that great about it is that Xerneas sets up on it (you could run Twave on it though).
It is a mon with great defensive capabilities but needs some support to function well (aka Xerneas check). This is why I think it deserves the A- ranking.
It is a mon with great defensive capabilities but needs some support to function well (aka Xerneas check). This is why I think it deserves the A- ranking.
422 turn stall battle where Ditto literally broke stall: http://pastebin.com/mGb0Ain7
I am still convinced Ditto is vastly vastly underrated. There is no universe where any of the mons below B are better than it.
I am still convinced Ditto is vastly vastly underrated. There is no universe where any of the mons below B are better than it.
bro
i stopped giving 2 shits by turn 70, ditto is still ass as ever, one replay vs me at 2:00 a.m does not make it good x_x
Ditto is good on ladder but very bad vs everything outside BO or HO. Even good BO and HO players are prepared for it. Yeah it can help sometimes but it should always stay low in the viability ranking so that new players don't think it's good(because it's bad or decent at most) and instead try to build in a way to check threats instead of thinking Ditto checks every set up sweeper while it's far from doing that and is totally dead weight vs many viable archetypes.
yeah it shows another example of the utility pursuit has on stall (and all those utilities added up eventually practically mandates the move on those teams). Without it, ditto can pp infinite while transforming into a blob and healing off any status from its teammates, really simple stuff.
I agree that ditto has a good niche, but your team doesn't exactly showcase a solid build with it. It's far too weak to proper stall. Lacus has a more interesting ditto team that I like, however.
that stall team was pretty dull anyway, looked like a bunch of gengar weak mons slapped together without any shame and then just the standard sab+lugia+waterceus core. Only 1 fire resist is stupid too, I learned that mistake first week if SPL. Vs a good stall team, ditto's performance often looks like this: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-74590
I agree that ditto has a good niche, but your team doesn't exactly showcase a solid build with it. It's far too weak to proper stall. Lacus has a more interesting ditto team that I like, however.
that stall team was pretty dull anyway, looked like a bunch of gengar weak mons slapped together without any shame and then just the standard sab+lugia+waterceus core. Only 1 fire resist is stupid too, I learned that mistake first week if SPL. Vs a good stall team, ditto's performance often looks like this: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ubers-74590
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mags
Banned deucer.
deo n to c- because it has enough bulk that it can run a chilan berry to fuck ekiller up. Here are some replays!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-256819701
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-246757135
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-245826413
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-256819701
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-246757135
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-245826413
Ok mags, can we please not do stuff like that? Joke Noms can be funny, but this is the thread that practically all new coming players will look at at some stages to try and learn the tier and might think you're not joking.
On the topic of viability, I'm pretty quiet atm cause of posting/computer difficulties leading to everything I post being either on my phone or in a library, but since i was specified, I think Mawile is fine at C-.
Giratina (or Gorrillas if you believe my phone) is (in my opinion) fine in B+. It does blanket check a good few physical attackers and acts as a good glue mon, but the lack of recovery makes it incredibly easy to wear down and it has a number of very good and very viable mons that come in on it without much risk (ie: Xerneas, Yveltal, Keys) such that every team will probably have an answer for it.
Ditto is garbage, honestly, it's used as a teambuilding crutch to give the superficial appearance of being somewhat solid vs setup sweepers, but against any decent player it is essentially like having 5 mins instead of 6, unable to manually switch in on anything, and proceeding to be choice locked into a move (which in my opinion is a pretty terrible idea in this meta). I can understand it being in C- (although I would strongly prefer it in D) but it absolutely should not rise higher than that.
On the topic of viability, I'm pretty quiet atm cause of posting/computer difficulties leading to everything I post being either on my phone or in a library, but since i was specified, I think Mawile is fine at C-.
Giratina (or Gorrillas if you believe my phone) is (in my opinion) fine in B+. It does blanket check a good few physical attackers and acts as a good glue mon, but the lack of recovery makes it incredibly easy to wear down and it has a number of very good and very viable mons that come in on it without much risk (ie: Xerneas, Yveltal, Keys) such that every team will probably have an answer for it.
Ditto is garbage, honestly, it's used as a teambuilding crutch to give the superficial appearance of being somewhat solid vs setup sweepers, but against any decent player it is essentially like having 5 mins instead of 6, unable to manually switch in on anything, and proceeding to be choice locked into a move (which in my opinion is a pretty terrible idea in this meta). I can understand it being in C- (although I would strongly prefer it in D) but it absolutely should not rise higher than that.
Double posting because WreckDra didn't post when I asked him to so I could avoid double posting (edit isn't working on my phone)
Tyranitar to B+
In no way should this be in the same rank as Sableye in my opinion. Sand is good in this meta but I think that the number of very good mons that beat this (Xerneas, primals, arceus forms) mean it is a tad less splashable than its current rank suggests, especially with its lack of recovery.
Mewtwo-x to A-.
How on earth is this thing considered 2 sub ranks below mewtwo y? Defensively, mewtwo X can check a significant amount more than mewtwo y in exchange for hitting not much less hard than it.
Arceus-Fairy to B/B-
I think we all just forgot this was here. I think it's about as good as iceceus is in this meta, if not a little worse.
Genesect to C+
The best choice scarfer! And doesn't that just say everything about choice scarf moms in this meta. Doesn't check much and has at least a check (normally more) on every team in the form of Pdon (not to mention pogre, ho-oh, keys, Sableye and more).
Arceus-Grass to C
About the same level as Arceus-Electric in my opinion.
Kyurem-W to C
Outclassed by DeoA, lati@s, and Iceceus offensively and offers next to no defensive niche. Kinda like a very slightly better palkia.
Arceus Dragon to C-
Wtf? Why is this thing not at least C- if not D? I can see basically no reason to use it instead of mence or rayquaza.
Giratina-A to D
Uh... Why would I ever use this over its origin forme? Even more passive than that and has huge 4mss.
Ditto to D/Unranked
As I said before I consider this mon to be truly garbage and only giving the illusion of being useful. I don't feel too strongly on this, as I admit it can work on occasion, but so can Garchomp and it's also terrible.
Smeargle to C/C-.
Sticky web isn't totally unviable, and it can use nuzzle vs Diancie so it's not hopeless vs that magic bouncer.
Tyranitar to B+
In no way should this be in the same rank as Sableye in my opinion. Sand is good in this meta but I think that the number of very good mons that beat this (Xerneas, primals, arceus forms) mean it is a tad less splashable than its current rank suggests, especially with its lack of recovery.
Mewtwo-x to A-.
How on earth is this thing considered 2 sub ranks below mewtwo y? Defensively, mewtwo X can check a significant amount more than mewtwo y in exchange for hitting not much less hard than it.
Arceus-Fairy to B/B-
I think we all just forgot this was here. I think it's about as good as iceceus is in this meta, if not a little worse.
Genesect to C+
The best choice scarfer! And doesn't that just say everything about choice scarf moms in this meta. Doesn't check much and has at least a check (normally more) on every team in the form of Pdon (not to mention pogre, ho-oh, keys, Sableye and more).
Arceus-Grass to C
About the same level as Arceus-Electric in my opinion.
Kyurem-W to C
Outclassed by DeoA, lati@s, and Iceceus offensively and offers next to no defensive niche. Kinda like a very slightly better palkia.
Arceus Dragon to C-
Wtf? Why is this thing not at least C- if not D? I can see basically no reason to use it instead of mence or rayquaza.
Giratina-A to D
Uh... Why would I ever use this over its origin forme? Even more passive than that and has huge 4mss.
Ditto to D/Unranked
As I said before I consider this mon to be truly garbage and only giving the illusion of being useful. I don't feel too strongly on this, as I admit it can work on occasion, but so can Garchomp and it's also terrible.
Smeargle to C/C-.
Sticky web isn't totally unviable, and it can use nuzzle vs Diancie so it's not hopeless vs that magic bouncer.
It's still a good check to both Ho-Oh and Yveltal and has Pursuit for Latis. It has decent utility to stay in A- specially that it's used on stall and sand teams which are both very viable play styles this generation. keep A-
Too much opportunity cost and horrible 4mms. It's a poor Mega and almost impossible to fit on a team. Unlike MM2Y It doesn't soft check Darkrai, while Mewtwo Y has way better coverage with 3 moves and Taunt and is awesome at pressuring in general specially Defog Arceus forms and Latis with the special bulk it has.
It's already given way more than it deserve being in B+ with Mega Diancie while Mega Diancie is way more useful and splash-able. Keep B+
lol no it's not It checks Salamence, Rayquaza, Yveltal and Lati twins and is one of the few Arceus forms who is not set up bait for Xerneas. B at least.
The best choice Scarfer is Xerneas but I agree that it's not really viable. The only niche it has is being paired with Kyogre which makes a C+ rank acceptable to me.
yeah agreed it offers too little in this meta and is so much bait to Ho-oh.
Iceceus means high opportunity cost you cannot compare please.I think it's fine where it is right now
ok agreed would like it to be D tbf.
It's bulkier than Giratina-O, checks offensive threats way better, has leftovers and can Defog more reliably vs Defensive Primal Groudon forms and with Rest is good vs stall. I use it on 3-4 teams It's way far from unviable. Giratina to C
you can't neglect the fact that it's good on ladder vs tryhards who set up like mads. I would say keep Ditto C-.
Both the sticky web set and the smash pass set have been proven to work decently on some teams and in tour games. At least C.
Edit: After an exhausting arguing session with Pomman I agreed with him that while Ttar has great utility it's really a free switch to Primal Groudon, Defensive Kyogre and some Dangerous pokemons so I agree for it to be B+.
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I'm not sure that comparing Grassceus to Eleceus is a good idea. I think it serves a different purpose, actually hard checks a couple mons, successfully lures stuff, and isn't bait for as many top tier threats as some other formes. The fact that it's a good af check to Groundceus, smacks Waterceus around, and the Primals don't appreciate switching into Grass Knot make it better than the C-Rank Arceus formes. I also disagree with it being Ho-Oh bait and it can in fact lure it in and smack it with a Stone Edge.
Of course it's still an average mon that has unfortunate typing leaving it prone to Ice/Fire coverage moves and Flying spam, but I still believe that it has a slight edge over Poisonceus and Eleceus and has a usable niche, however small it is. So yeah, I'd keep it in C+ personally, at least for the time being. I'd be happy to revisit it after the B- and below Arceus formes get settled though.
Of course it's still an average mon that has unfortunate typing leaving it prone to Ice/Fire coverage moves and Flying spam, but I still believe that it has a slight edge over Poisonceus and Eleceus and has a usable niche, however small it is. So yeah, I'd keep it in C+ personally, at least for the time being. I'd be happy to revisit it after the B- and below Arceus formes get settled though.
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