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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)
- Thread starter Nayrz
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Arceus-Dragon has the narrow utility of being able to do Arceus-Water's job but much worse. Specifically, it can switch into Sacred Fires like Arceus-Water, and isn't forced to run Ice Beam because Judgment OHKO's Mega-Mence. Judgment also makes it less of a liability against Mega Gengar.
Can we stop proposing everything under the sun for D-Rank? Would be nice if people could actually bother using the Pokemon before jumping to conclusions. Arceus-Dragon is clearly better than the other Arceus in D rank.
Can we stop proposing everything under the sun for D-Rank? Would be nice if people could actually bother using the Pokemon before jumping to conclusions. Arceus-Dragon is clearly better than the other Arceus in D rank.
I believe DoubleOD is onto something here; this new revelation means Arceus-Dragon could actually see a substantial bump in Rank. It is essentially an Arceus-Water (resists the Water and Fire attacks in the meta) that has the luxury of being able to go mono-STAB, which is an incredibly damn crucial trait for a support Arceus to claim.
Probably Arceus-Dragon's main flaws over Arceus-Water would be its vulnerability to a OHKO from Lati@s (while Arceus-Water can at least duke it out with non-CM variants) and being fodder for Klefki and Xerneas, not that Arceus-Water fares that much better against those two. With that said, it's still worth not giving PDon / MMence any incentive to switch in as well as keep any non-Scarf Zekrom at bay, plus Arceus-Dragon can at the very least surprise Xerneas with Thunder Wave or even Roar if you have massive nads.
Suddenly Arceus-Water seems like the outclassed one; who'd have seen this coming @_@
Probably Arceus-Dragon's main flaws over Arceus-Water would be its vulnerability to a OHKO from Lati@s (while Arceus-Water can at least duke it out with non-CM variants) and being fodder for Klefki and Xerneas, not that Arceus-Water fares that much better against those two. With that said, it's still worth not giving PDon / MMence any incentive to switch in as well as keep any non-Scarf Zekrom at bay, plus Arceus-Dragon can at the very least surprise Xerneas with Thunder Wave or even Roar if you have massive nads.
Suddenly Arceus-Water seems like the outclassed one; who'd have seen this coming @_@
Arceus-Water is definitely not outclassed. I had a streak where I used Arceus-Dragon for about 10 matches and I switched because I just became too weak to fairies - (Note that with special attacking Dragons like Lati, Dialga, etc. you aren't going to stay in with Arceus-Water either since Arc is physically defensive, but unlike Arceus-Dragon if Xerneas comes in and you just HAVE to get off a Defog so that your Ho-Oh or whatever can live whats coming next you can do that with Arceus-Water).
You could build a legitimate team around Arceus-Dragon and take down a very good player in a tournament match. That's why I believe it has a niche. However, you have to build around its shortcomings unlike Arceus-Water which is almost splashable at this point. I wouldn't feel comfortable running Arceus-Dragon with another fairy-weak Pokemon like Yveltal.
My argument was that it has enough of a niche to justify staying out of D rank and being allowed to run Judgment gives you a fourth move slot that can be used to experiment - Perish Song? Magic Coat? Roar? go for it. Want to run a coverage move to surprise something in a tournament match? Now you can.
You could build a legitimate team around Arceus-Dragon and take down a very good player in a tournament match. That's why I believe it has a niche. However, you have to build around its shortcomings unlike Arceus-Water which is almost splashable at this point. I wouldn't feel comfortable running Arceus-Dragon with another fairy-weak Pokemon like Yveltal.
My argument was that it has enough of a niche to justify staying out of D rank and being allowed to run Judgment gives you a fourth move slot that can be used to experiment - Perish Song? Magic Coat? Roar? go for it. Want to run a coverage move to surprise something in a tournament match? Now you can.
arceus-water is still better like 95% of the time tho lol. not sure where u reppin that it could ever outperform arceus-water @ punchshroom coz this dude is way more niche than u vibin. basically,
arceus-water covers: mence / ho-oh / water resist (kyogre v v soft check) / pdon soft check [v v v v v soft]
arceus-rock covers: mence (albeit worse) / ho-oh / ekiller [worse against pdon] / yveltal
arceus-dragon covers: mence / ogre [soft check]
arceus-fairy covers: mence / yveltal / lati@s [bad offensive typing]
arceus-ice covers: mence / yveltal
i prob missed a few of the biggies, but in general water definitely has the most useful defensive typing to cover the most dudes. HOWEVER, what i meant above was that arc-drag opens up ur build to being able to toss on a ogre. given that the redundancies in a kyogre + arc-water squad would impose too many defensive weaks, no squad with it would ever be able to be useful in a metagame which requires stringent compression. essentially, arc-water is typically your go-to arc-form if ur looking for a mence cover HOWEVER if you have ho-oh covered decently enough (2 checks.. one of which is probably 100% kyogre unless i'm blanking) then u can opt for arc-drag which has the benefit of having better offensive prowess than most non-normal and ghost arceus.
it's one of the cooler niche mons but it's by no means revolutionary
arceus-water covers: mence / ho-oh / water resist (kyogre v v soft check) / pdon soft check [v v v v v soft]
arceus-rock covers: mence (albeit worse) / ho-oh / ekiller [worse against pdon] / yveltal
arceus-dragon covers: mence / ogre [soft check]
arceus-fairy covers: mence / yveltal / lati@s [bad offensive typing]
arceus-ice covers: mence / yveltal
i prob missed a few of the biggies, but in general water definitely has the most useful defensive typing to cover the most dudes. HOWEVER, what i meant above was that arc-drag opens up ur build to being able to toss on a ogre. given that the redundancies in a kyogre + arc-water squad would impose too many defensive weaks, no squad with it would ever be able to be useful in a metagame which requires stringent compression. essentially, arc-water is typically your go-to arc-form if ur looking for a mence cover HOWEVER if you have ho-oh covered decently enough (2 checks.. one of which is probably 100% kyogre unless i'm blanking) then u can opt for arc-drag which has the benefit of having better offensive prowess than most non-normal and ghost arceus.
it's one of the cooler niche mons but it's by no means revolutionary
hang on what
So basically Arc-Drag checks much of the same things Arc-Water does, but sacrifices defensive presence, aka matchups against faster Fairies and Dragons, in favor of better offensive presence (Zekrom cannot even revenge Arc-Drag without a Scarf, SD PDon is checked far better, Gengar doesn't directly waltz in). Admittedly I see that isn't as useful on a support Arceus, but it's something.
I completely fail to see how Arceus-Dragon does not fare as well against what Arceus-Water checks; heck, Arc-Drag outright does better against PDon because it isn't stuck with unSTAB Ice Beam against it, which is relevant against Swords Dance PDon. I admit the big downside to Arc-Drag is that it opens up the team to Fairies and that I exaggerated on Arc-Water being outclassed, but considering Arc-Water is just as much setup fodder for GeoXern and Klefki (if not carrying Judgement) as Arc-Dragon is, the Fairy weakness only really comes into play against immediate Fairy attackers like Mega Diancie and Scarf Xerneas, and I mentioned earlier that Arc-Drag is also vulnerable to Lati@s. Otherwise, Draco Plate STAB Judgement is much harder for foes to take advantage of than unSTAB Ice Beam, not to mention Arc-Drag isn't forced to lug around Toxic and can afford other moves.
So basically Arc-Drag checks much of the same things Arc-Water does, but sacrifices defensive presence, aka matchups against faster Fairies and Dragons, in favor of better offensive presence (Zekrom cannot even revenge Arc-Drag without a Scarf, SD PDon is checked far better, Gengar doesn't directly waltz in). Admittedly I see that isn't as useful on a support Arceus, but it's something.
Arceus-Water is still better because it isn't 100 % bait for Mega Diancie (it is actually a good check to this with judgment, which it runs on fat teams). Diancie is very hard for bulky teams to cover and usually Arceus-Water is actually the best check to it on most teams.
Klefki and Xern are similar issues, now you can't chip dmg with judg and xern is almost 100 % free with standard geo+aroma (or if it doesn't have that then you have toxic the switch).
SD Pdon is only relevant to the argument if it's the SD+SR set. With judgment you could potentially weaken it a bit further and use your mega sableye fake out to possibly keep SR away for a prolonged time. SD+SR is rare but admittedly have seen some usage recently. If it's just a set up Pdon you should notice from team preview and use your offensive Pdon check instead.
Arceus-Dragon should need more testing before concluding how good it is, but as I said I can definitely see the niche it has.
PS: fwiw I still think Arceus-Dragon needs to run Judgment/Defog/Toxic/Recover, it's very hard to justify not using toxic on any special attacking Arceus just because of Ho-oh.
Klefki and Xern are similar issues, now you can't chip dmg with judg and xern is almost 100 % free with standard geo+aroma (or if it doesn't have that then you have toxic the switch).
SD Pdon is only relevant to the argument if it's the SD+SR set. With judgment you could potentially weaken it a bit further and use your mega sableye fake out to possibly keep SR away for a prolonged time. SD+SR is rare but admittedly have seen some usage recently. If it's just a set up Pdon you should notice from team preview and use your offensive Pdon check instead.
Arceus-Dragon should need more testing before concluding how good it is, but as I said I can definitely see the niche it has.
PS: fwiw I still think Arceus-Dragon needs to run Judgment/Defog/Toxic/Recover, it's very hard to justify not using toxic on any special attacking Arceus just because of Ho-oh.
I wouldn't even consider Arc-Dragon if I could justify using Judgment Arc-Water, surely at that point the advantages of using Water > Dragon are so limited that it could be considered outclassed? You trade being able to check Quaza and Mence and being able to chip Don, all of which you most likely have covered if you've decided you want Judgment Arc-Water, whether that be through running Ice Beam Lugia or something like Beam+Judg Arc for the headache of trying to check Diancie.
I'd say a fairer comparison could be made on teams where you specifically need your Arc forme to be able to check Mence, non-SD Don, Ho-oh and to Defog also, not an uncommon scenario for balance. In this kind of scenario, Arc-Dragon does have both positives and negatives when compared to Arc-Water, in that it obviously doesn't get trapped by Gar, as easily, can break Ho-oh subs if you ever see that set(like an 80% chance to, you can run 44 SpA to guarantee) isn't bait for CM Lati or for Lati's to Defog on if it's worth trading no rocks for being hit with Tox at that point. On the other hand, you're going to become Fairy weak without the ability to chip Xern or Diancie, Stealth Rock Dialga is going to be a massive ass to play against etc. I think there are times when Arc-Dragon can potentially be justified over IB / Tox / Defog / Recover Arc-Water, but in general Water is more splashable, especially if you can justify running Judgment. That's just the feeling I've got from play testing it over today and yesterday.
I'd say a fairer comparison could be made on teams where you specifically need your Arc forme to be able to check Mence, non-SD Don, Ho-oh and to Defog also, not an uncommon scenario for balance. In this kind of scenario, Arc-Dragon does have both positives and negatives when compared to Arc-Water, in that it obviously doesn't get trapped by Gar, as easily, can break Ho-oh subs if you ever see that set(like an 80% chance to, you can run 44 SpA to guarantee) isn't bait for CM Lati or for Lati's to Defog on if it's worth trading no rocks for being hit with Tox at that point. On the other hand, you're going to become Fairy weak without the ability to chip Xern or Diancie, Stealth Rock Dialga is going to be a massive ass to play against etc. I think there are times when Arc-Dragon can potentially be justified over IB / Tox / Defog / Recover Arc-Water, but in general Water is more splashable, especially if you can justify running Judgment. That's just the feeling I've got from play testing it over today and yesterday.
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Times may change, discussions may be had, but the kyurem-w debate never ends. updating.
Update List:
Arceus-Water: A- >>> A
Arceus-Steel: C >>> C-
Arceus-Ground: A >>> A+
Arceus-Grass: C+ >>> C
Arceus-Fairy: B+ >>> B
Arceus-Dragon: gonna touch on this mon - so far it seems a niche has been found for it, but until some replays or a team of it has been showcased, theres no real justification for it to go anywhere...yet. revisiting it next update.
Genesect: B- >>> C+
Smeargle: Unranked >>> C (seems to be passing for an analysis)
Tyranitar: A- >>> B+
Mega Slowbro: Unranked >>> C+ (it passed for an analysis and i forgot to rank it)
Looking good. keep up the great discussion dudes.
Update List:
Arceus-Water: A- >>> A
Arceus-Steel: C >>> C-
Arceus-Ground: A >>> A+
Arceus-Grass: C+ >>> C
Arceus-Fairy: B+ >>> B
Arceus-Dragon: gonna touch on this mon - so far it seems a niche has been found for it, but until some replays or a team of it has been showcased, theres no real justification for it to go anywhere...yet. revisiting it next update.
Genesect: B- >>> C+
Smeargle: Unranked >>> C (seems to be passing for an analysis)
Tyranitar: A- >>> B+
Mega Slowbro: Unranked >>> C+ (it passed for an analysis and i forgot to rank it)
Looking good. keep up the great discussion dudes.
Alright, I'm here with an appeal for a recently demoted mon.
Genesect for B-
When played right, Genesect is the most reliable mon for revenge-killing Geoxern. With a max special defense and HP set as well as an assault vest it can survive through multiple moonblast and focus blast, returning with iron head and extremespeed. It also provides decent priority coverage for a team, taking out a mon that's on the ropes. Due to these factors, Genesect should be promoted back to B-, due to its ability to deal with one of the biggest threats in the meta as well as providing coverage for your team.
Genesect for B-
When played right, Genesect is the most reliable mon for revenge-killing Geoxern. With a max special defense and HP set as well as an assault vest it can survive through multiple moonblast and focus blast, returning with iron head and extremespeed. It also provides decent priority coverage for a team, taking out a mon that's on the ropes. Due to these factors, Genesect should be promoted back to B-, due to its ability to deal with one of the biggest threats in the meta as well as providing coverage for your team.
It is pretty much impossible to justify using Assault Vest Genesect over things like Klefki and Aegislash, which are more reliable answers to Geomancy Xerneas that contribute much more support to a team. AV Genesect requires significant bulk investment on top of Assault Vest to reliably switch in and tank +2 Focus Blast, and it hits like a kitten without offensive investment which makes it a sitting duck for most other Pokemon.
I agree that Genesect should be B-. But I believe it should be that way because of it's choice scarf set. It can run Shift Gear too if you want too. This pokemon can give chip damage through out the battle and even be a late game sweeper. It can run mixed too so it choose to take advantage of it's Download boost too. It has amazing coverage but suffers from Fire Types a lot. This pokemon is one of the best choice scarfers in the meta-game and is underrated. However it is weak to many great Pokemon such as Primal Groudon and is hurt by how standard +2 Xern out speeding Genesect is. This pokemon could work well with P-Don checks such as Arceus-Ground and defoggers so it can U-turn freely.
Also Tyranitar and Excadrill CANNOT BE IN THE SAME RANK. Excadrill typically relies on Tyranitar so we either to rise Tyranitar or bump down down Excadrill. I know Excadrill has a Choice Scarf set but that set is not even better than Genesect.
Also Tyranitar and Excadrill CANNOT BE IN THE SAME RANK. Excadrill typically relies on Tyranitar so we either to rise Tyranitar or bump down down Excadrill. I know Excadrill has a Choice Scarf set but that set is not even better than Genesect.
1) Genesect is if anything overrated in my opinion, its weak, very reliant on choice scarf, and has entirely too many pokemon that are very solid answers to it in my opinion, often two per team.
2) THERE ISN'T A CHOICE SCARF EXCADRILL SET! I am almost certainly the only guy who has ever used it that way, and for good reason. Also, excadrill isnt entirely reliant on tyranitar to do its job, it can outspeed and severely threaten a lot of balanced teams, and it also has a sash lead set that isn't bad either.
Edit for clarity, obviously excadrill does best with sand up, but it isn't just a waste of a monslot without ttar (if ttar dies earlier on in the game for example).
I honestly don't see the point of bronzong. I mean it's a xern check but doesn't do anything but sit there and set up rocks. It has no offensive pressure whatsoever outside of gyro ball and has not a whole lot of status moves either. For a wall in the uber tier it's rather limited in not having access to any recovery outside of rest and no thunder wave or will-o-wisp. Its defensive stats aren't even that great with having less bulk than a base 100 across the board.
If you need a hazard-setting xerneas check you're better off with pdon and jirachi, both of which can actually take two attacks from a xern at +2 and have thunder wave/roar to help out the team, next to being able to actually shut it down instead of doing 70% and then dying.
If you compare it to a mon like jirachi with a lot of the same tasks it loses out on bulk, a lot of speed, thunder wave, iron head flinch shenanigans, wish, u-turn, healing wish and versatility for what exactly? Doing 3% more to xerneas with gyro ball and checking arceus-ground lacking coverage?
I disagree with it being placed on B; if your team desperately needs an arceus-ground check you could place it on your team but I'd not place it around other mons that can actually wall a significant portion of the tier and have the status moves to back it up.
If you need a hazard-setting xerneas check you're better off with pdon and jirachi, both of which can actually take two attacks from a xern at +2 and have thunder wave/roar to help out the team, next to being able to actually shut it down instead of doing 70% and then dying.
If you compare it to a mon like jirachi with a lot of the same tasks it loses out on bulk, a lot of speed, thunder wave, iron head flinch shenanigans, wish, u-turn, healing wish and versatility for what exactly? Doing 3% more to xerneas with gyro ball and checking arceus-ground lacking coverage?
I disagree with it being placed on B; if your team desperately needs an arceus-ground check you could place it on your team but I'd not place it around other mons that can actually wall a significant portion of the tier and have the status moves to back it up.
Smeargle = S
Bronzong = B
Of course he didn't really meant it. In my opinion Bronzong should be C since It has some niches and can be used in some competitive teams unlike some other mon. Stealth Rocks, TR Lead and Xern Check are common sets I would use so C works fine. Smeargle should also be C+ or C since its useless versus Magic Bounce. Well you can use it for smash pass tho.
Bronzong = B
Of course he didn't really meant it. In my opinion Bronzong should be C since It has some niches and can be used in some competitive teams unlike some other mon. Stealth Rocks, TR Lead and Xern Check are common sets I would use so C works fine. Smeargle should also be C+ or C since its useless versus Magic Bounce. Well you can use it for smash pass tho.
bronzong also takes hits from xern at +2, and in addition to that, checks primal groudon, rayquaza-mega, arceus-ground and salamence-mega, while have a plethora of move options configurable to any team it should find itself on, such as stealth rocks, trick room, gyro ball, explosion, toxic, confuse ray, hypnosis and gravity. compare it to a mon like jirachi... which is complete bait for the best pokemon in the metagame?
You know both overheat and fire punch OHKO bronzong, right? I would hardly call that a pdon check. Also, all useful moves in that list are also learned by jirachi except for hypnosis which is very shaky and explosion which does like 40% to anything not even invested in HP/def. Also I don't even know why you're bringing up Mega Ray. Normal rayquaza OHKO's bronzong easily with Vcreate. And salamence-mega's sub doesn't even get broken if it intimidated bronzong so it's only a check in the late-game and even then, what does bronzong even do? Toxic mence and get 2HKO'd by +1 return?
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 188-222 (55.6 - 65.6%)
4 Atk Bronzong Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 306-362 (77.8 - 92.1%)
Bronzong can check a xerneas that hasn't set up yet but not much else. Even moonblast+focus blast can kill bronzong if it lacks HP fire.
Careful not to overrate Bronzong. It can't check Fire move Primal Groudon, Rayquaza w/ V-create, or Refresh Salamence (max power Gyro Ball does 42% max to no bulk Mega Salamence so if it has Refresh you lose)
Bronzong also can't beat Xerneas at full HP by itself (Gyro maxes at 80% and you are 2HKOed by +2 Focus Blast or Moonblast + Focus Blast), though this is less of an issue than it was last gen since Primal Groudon makes it easier to fit a backup Xerneas check.
To Jirachi's credit, it can paralyze Primal Groudon with Body Slam or at least make use of U-turn to dance around it.
e: forgot Skill Swap is cute vs Mence too, thanks wreck
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where were you defending jirachi when i was doing it^ >:|
and by your logic, skarmory, yveltal and groundceus aren't pdon checks either, because overheat ohko's them too :O
don't oversell one shit mon to deface another lol
Actually, V-Create was used on about 28% of Rayquaza last month according to 1760 usage stats. Say what you will about whether or not that is optimal (probably not, if we're being honest with ourselves) but that's far from not existing.
And Skarm at least is only good against PDons without Fire-moves. SD sets 2HKO with Stone Edge after a boost easily. You don't use Skarm for PDon, you use it for Mence and SD Arceus formes.
Just bein a lil nitpicky.
~Fireburn
>:| and i don't get to keep my edits? ._.
~krauersaut
ok let's pretend rayquaza runs v-create LOL
and by your logic, skarmory, yveltal and groundceus aren't pdon checks either, because overheat ohko's them too :O
don't oversell one shit mon to deface another lol
Actually, V-Create was used on about 28% of Rayquaza last month according to 1760 usage stats. Say what you will about whether or not that is optimal (probably not, if we're being honest with ourselves) but that's far from not existing.
And Skarm at least is only good against PDons without Fire-moves. SD sets 2HKO with Stone Edge after a boost easily. You don't use Skarm for PDon, you use it for Mence and SD Arceus formes.
Just bein a lil nitpicky.
~Fireburn
>:| and i don't get to keep my edits? ._.
~krauersaut
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It may not be able to beat Salamence on its own, but it can definitely (or TR if that is your sorta thing) neuter it 'til it is forced out with Skill Swap. An Aerilate-less refresh mence is a lot less terrifying than one with Aerilate; just saying. Primal Groudon will require two checks regardless for the SD variants and the Fire-move variants, so Bronzong is just sharing the pain as any other Primal Groudon check does. My problem with Bronzong is that it doesn't do much in many situations and is the absolute biggest momentum robber (outside of Giratina-A) that I have ever played with.
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