ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

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I seriously disagree with B+ Bronzong (it should be C at most) and dropping Klefki (it's fine where it is). Numerous people have expressed my thoughts about these pokemons succinctly and I liked these posts.

Mewtwo is an interesting mon. I agree that it doesn't offer much in terms of compression, however the speed that it offers is invaluable. MMY is one of few reliable check vs Darkrai (only twave really threatens mmy and that's rare as hell). The speed also allows Mewtwo to check boosted non-priority Arceus (think groundceus, etc). From my experience with MMY, the contribution varies depending on match ups. It can absolutely crush some teams to downright useless vs other. MMY's match up issues has changed significantly from XY. MMY struggles vs stall teams and is rather good vs balance (depending on sableye!)/offense now. However, MMY suffers from the opportunity cost of Mega. Mewtwo is rather similar to MMY for niches, with only notable difference of performing better on defogless/sand teams and outspeeding Gengar.

I think MMY deserves B- and Mewtwo deserves B.
 

Thugly Duckling

I play TCG now
I have a good mewtwo team that is 2-1 in seasonals right now. I won't actually showcase the team because I may use it in future games, but here are replays of the team in action and some points to why I think it should remain in the A subranks.


Vs Bughouse - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-256766131: This game didn't go all too well for me. Bughouse was running some questionable sets that did not suit his team such as 0 attacks Clefable, Knock Off Sableye, and Ice Beam Waterceus which my team greatly underestimated. Mewtwo's performance was exemplary in this match, as it pressured Bughouse's defogger and magic bouncer very well with Calm Mind alongside a spikes setter.

But it cannot go unnoticed in this replay that Life Orb Mewtwo would have been the superior set in this match. MMY came just short of taking out Lugia from the match (a feat which Life orb Mewtwo would have accomplished) and was unable to break through toxic+protect+wish Clefable because it came just short of power in order to eliminate this threat. Though aside from the point, Lugia must have had some clutch EVs because +1 Ice Beam's lowest role on Lugia is 65%, and after Stealth Rock damage and Leftovers recovery Lugia sat at 63.5%.

- +1 252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Lugia: 272-322 (65.3 - 77.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Had bughouse carried a standard Lugia, Mewtwo would have just steamrolled through his team. My team does not opt for Life Orb Mewtwo because Mewtwo Y's immunity to sleep offers such great utility against Darkrai which my team would otherwise have little counterplay against; the higher speed tier also helps keep Mega Gengar in check as the glue of my team, Waterceus, is vulnerable to it. For the reasons stated I do believe Mewtwo Y is more viable than Mewtwo because the marginal increase in speed and actual utility of a sleep immunity makes it useful, easier to fit onto teams, and worthwhile as a choice for a Mega. It should be placed at least a sub rank higher than Mewtwo.


Vs Haruno - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-261055124: Mewtwo had actually done nothing in this match, but in the matchup it did source a way of revenge killing SD Arceus had something gone wrong in my playmaking that allowed it to set up.

- 252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arceus-Ground: 226-268 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Generally, the ability to revenge kill a boosted non-espeed Arceus is a great quality to have. So if the Groundceus attempts to set up on anything specific to my team (bar Klefki, but in that case Giratina-O is there), Mewtwo will be able to revenge kill.


Vs Croven - http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-262518617: This stresses the point that Mewtwo is an exceptional revenge killer. Croven's team had nothing to take on fast Ice coverage and it successfully pinned down Ho-Oh because Mewtwo would have 2HKOed anything he would switched in. Taunt would have been helpful here to stop the Defog and keep his yveltal dead on a switchin to SR but Ice Beam still took care of the Latias and allowed Giratina-O to possibly pick it off with shadow sneak had it switched out and came in later. Mewtwo did revenge kill Arceus as explained above and below that it is able to.


Comparisons with similar Pokemon -- I won't try to argue that it is better at revenge killing Arceus Ground than something say Skymin is because it isn't. In 1v1 situations against unboosted SD Arceus (especially Ghost) Skymin is always better because of the mere type disadvantage Mewtwo has when facing it—Mewtwo is either forced to switch out on shadow force or KOed by Shadow Claw. If Ghostceus is in fact the rare Shadow Claw + Shadow Force set, Skymin is both better in the scenarios of Arc being boosted and unboosted; in the case of the former it can at least fish for two flinches and then seed flare. Though if your team is weak enough to SD ghostceus, Darkrai should be considered over both Mewtwo and Skymin. But nonetheless, both Mewtwo and Skymin acheive 2HKOs on 0 hp / 0 def Arceus:

- 252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 190-225 (49.8 - 59%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO

- 252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 207-243 (54.3 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

But what holds in the Mewtwo vs Skymin comparisons is that Mewtwo is a more reliable answer to Darkrai than Skymin in a 1v1 because the chances of landing a Focus Blast are greater than the chances of KOing with Seed Flare:

- 70% accuracy >
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 265-312 (93.9 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Even worse chances of stopping Darkrai with two Air Slash flinches. The only time you actually want Skymin instead of Mewtwo for checking Darkrai is when it is holding a Focus Sash. But how relevant is that set outside of like ladder?


In summation, all three of Darkrai, Skymin, and Mewtwo are used to stop defogs. Darkrai is most definitely the best of the three, hence why it is at such a high rank. Dark Void+Nasty plot is excellent and there is no sizable comparison within this tier that can pressure defoggers as well as it can. Skymin is by far the worst of the three. Its trump card and crutch in Air Slash flinches are successful only 60% of the time and the only relevant defogger it will always beat is Arceus Water because of super effective seed flare. Mewtwo on the other hand is overall very consistent at stopping defogs. Access to taunt is menacing to Lugia and Waterceus, and can leave Latis vulnerable as set up fodder. It is unfortunate that Mewtwo fails to stop Ghostceus's Defog and live to tell the tale, but as steelphoenix has mentioned Defog sets have diminished in usage to nigh nonexistence. Mewtwo also defeats the magic bouncers, however Mega Sableye can be of some trouble because Mewtwo will often have to make predictions in order to eliminate it; though, this is impressive:

- 252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 145-171 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO

I don't particularly think Fire Blast is Mewtwo's best coverage option but it does allow Mewtwo to beat Sab and also Klefki, and can't be disregarded. The point here is, Mewtwo can defeat hazard control cores.


CM wars with Arcs!!! Ghostceus is the best one, but Mewtwo beats all the other ones such as Rockceus and the rare Grasseus and Fairyceus because of Psystrike. Darkrai does have a similar function that can stop Arceus from boosting up by using Dark void and resorting to Nasty Plot in attempt to overwhelm the Arceus but this is really only /effective/ in practice if the Arc is Ghost, but this is aside the point.

- +1 8 SpA Silk Scarf Arceus Judgment vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Mewtwo Y: 130-154 (36.8 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Mewtwo has the speed and special defense to boost with CM on an Arceus that has already boosted, as shown here. If the Arceus uses Calm Mind the same turn that Mewtwo boosts, just boost alongside the Arceus until it attacks and then kill it with Psystrike. Beating CM arcs other than Ghost Arceus and the irrelevant Darkceus is a small niche but nonetheless a useful one.


Not going to mention Mmx because it seems that we are focusing on cleaning up the A ranks and Mewtwo X is irrelevant to this notion.

~

So with this evidence I've concluded about Mewtwo that it:

Pros
- Pressures hazard controlling cores exceptionally well with CM or Taunt alongside a hazards setter, with relevant set up opportunities against clerics and possesses the tools in coverage to push past different variants of these said cores (Fire blast to get past Mega Sab for example); Mega Sableye isn't as much of a liability to Mewtwo as currently thought to be by the community
- Is a versatile revenge killing threat with a niche of checking Calm Arceus formes that are not Ghost and Dark with CM of its own
- The above points plus compressing a sleep absorber and Darkrai check

Cons
- outclassed by Darkrai
- situationally worse than Skymin at checking non-espeed SD Arceus formes
- Takes up Mega
- Life Orb Mewtwo fulfills the same purposes of MMY without taking up the Mega slot, however cannot absorb sleep and check said CM Arceus formes as well
- Loses and gains some depending on the choice of Mewtwonite Y or Life Orb as an item


Mega Mewtwo Y should remain in A and Mewtwo should drop to A-. If a consensus is not reached that MMY is better than Mewtwo, both should drop to A-. Seeing that both Mewtwo Y and Mewtwo is the middle ground between Darkrai (best of the three Defog stoppers) and Skymin (worst of the three), it should never be in the same rank as Darkrai, but always higher than Skymin.

E: Didn't mention Gengar at all, which may have hurt the crux of my argument. But I believe Gar is more of a Defog punisher rather than a stop to it.
 
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I think that team becomes better with Ekiller > Waterceus, fast CB Ho-oh > Yveltal and protect/fblast/wisp/hex Gengar > Mewtwo.

Won't be going into much details but I simply this team's lack of a options vs bulkier teams is due to the usage of Yveltal and Mewtwo-Y. What do you actually do vs stall? Sableye walls the shit out of your only thing remotely close to a stallbreaker... And vs standard HO I can't see you having such a great match up either, again, mainly due to the shittyness of Yveltal. But the fact that Mewtwo-Y does absolutely nothing to force anything in the match ups your have problems in is exactly why I don't think it's better than B+.
 
There's been some great and interesting reads over the past week. Guess its time to update. Its good that people dont just settle for what is there and actually question if a mon is worthy of its rank.

Update List:

Ho-Oh: A+ >>> S
Primal Kyogre: A+ >>> B+
Lugia: A >>> A+
Klefki: A >>> A-
(Edit: Reverted due to support and the A- was kinda 50/50 anyways)
Mewtwo: A >>> A-
Mewtwo-Y: A >>> B+
Latias: A >>> B+
Mega Sableye: A- >>> A
Arceus-Dragon: C >>> B-
Bronzong: Unranked >> B-
Arceus-Dark: B+ >>> B-
Arceus-Ice: B- >>> C+
Arceus-Fairy: B >>> C+
Arceus-Ghost: A+ >>> A
Tentacruel: Unranked >>> C+
Mega Lopunny: C+ >>> C


Skarmory didn't move due to the majority agreement that Klefki provides more utility. If Klefki is A-, then Skarmory is B+.

Arceus-Fairy is a mon that i brought up to Sweep on IRC as a nom of my own and was agreed on - this mon is near impossible to build a solid team with. You cannot fit a Xerneas check beside it that doesn't either leave you open to Ho-Oh or Primal Groudon, or just about all the other mons that come in on Fairyceus. Primal Groudon can sort of do it, but is then required to be at a decent HP to handle Xerneas, leaving an simple win condition for your opponent - weaken groudon and win. Darkrai can OHKO it with +2 Sludge Bomb, meaning you have to find another way around it. Mega Gengar orgasms at team preview. It is strapped for moveslots - no Fire Blast and Steel-types just laugh and set hazards. Defog is very difficult to do, as that means no Toxic to prevent free Ho-Oh switches. It only really counters Yveltal and Mewtwo-X, owns Sableye, and checks Salamence + Mewtwo/Mewtwo-Y (might have missed something but you get the idea). These are things that teams with Groudon + a better Arceus forme + standard teammates can already do. The strain it puts on a build is too high to be worthy of any B rank.

Arceus-Ghost was also discussed on IRC and the general idea was that it could drop a little. It's still a decent mon (try out subcm with max spa and tspikes support! - Sweep)

Mega Kangkaskhan doesn't quite feel B+ worthy, so we decided to go with the safer option of it staying in B. Still a solid rank.

Mega Lucario hasn't been raised - it seems to be getting some overhype going on so its fine at B-.

Jirachi also hasn't gone up - Scarf isnt a reason that it should move up, its the reason its C+ in the first place.

I also wanna hear about the Gothitelle mention Kebabe talked about. Is it back? Is it viable? I have not heard much of this mon recently. We also can't rank it anyway until an ORAS analysis is done for it so keep that in mind.

Hoopa-Unbound is as of yet unproven in Ubers, that means it doesn't have a reason to make it worthy of a ranking on its own. Nasty Plot does a number vs stall on paper but has yet to be proven in a team as far as i'm aware. If it does happen to be banned from OU, then it will require an analysis and will be placed here. Nobody has tried to pass it by QC in the C&C forum yet so anyone that sees some good things in it and is willing to write its analysis is welcome to try.

Landorus-T will be ranked after the analysis is fully completed, as there is a bit of debate around its viability.

What are people's thoughts on Rayquaza and Dialga in the current meta? If we take what Hack brought up into account and continue to judge A rank based on "overall solid mons in the meta", does Ray and Dialga apply to this? I'll leave it as a discussion point.

Side note: if i was dumb and didn't notice an old sprite when changing the rankings (like if there are 2 of the same mon), send me a forum or irc pm over posting in here. thanks!
 
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I don't understand this simple thing:

Klefki: A >>> A-
Mewtwo: A >>> A-


Can you honestly say that Mewtwo fits on as many builds as Klefki? There shouldn't really be an argument. I'd just bump back Klefki to A for the reasons I stated in previous posts. Klefki is undisputably a "very solid mon in the meta".

Regarding Dialga:

SR opens Pdon slot but really though I don't get it. Why not just SR Pdon and a non shitty mon instead? I have always advocated that non SR primal groudon can only fit on more extreme playstyles (HO with SD/RP and stall with rest talk plume, and the occasional Ttar+Groudon+Exca overloads). Balance simply does not benefit as much compression wise. Dialga is shit, whichever way you twist and turn it. SR on it only allows it to have 3 moves- no status and you are just defog bait (even for latis at times), no fire blast is walled by steels, no stone edge and Ho-oh just eats you, no flash cannon and fairys suck etc. List goes on. Shuca Berry also forces a one time use item on a generally bulky mon who could have potentially been a decent Darkrai deterrent early game with Lum+Twave (as well as annoying any non para immune mon, especially defogers) or used something like LO/lefties to actually hurt things/reduce chip dmg impact. Even then, switching in to ground moves is a no-no for Dialga leaving it for the role of a blunt Salamence check/emergency answer to SD arceus/pdon. What I am basically saying is that Shuca Berry is a desperate attempt to merely cover its blatant flaws, not actually an attempt to be truly solid. Trying to go fully offensive with Dialga is just shooting yourself in the foot- you will always play from behind vs the standard HO unless you fit defog - which itself robs your offensive momentum and requires more defensive backbone - making your team not so very offensive all of a sudden. And I just explained balance's problems with using this mon. An example of this in practice is problem's team consisting of dialga/pdon/skymin/gengar/groundceus/ray. Against the standard HO you can't really do anything at all and the HO user can even afford some major errors. There is a game involving this particular match up but I don't want to wake the trolls...

Regarding Rayquaza:

Niche but okay mon, only fits on teams that opts for another mega than Salamence, I tried the dual flying tactic with my cloyster/scarf xern/ray/mence/pdon/darkceus build but it's simply inferior to much simpler flyspams involving ho-oh+mmence. It can use a charti berry set to be an effective one time stop to RP+stone edge pdon for more offensive teams, it has some solid priority, and its sash set is a great asset for smashpass. It's not very splashable but just as Mewtwo, it has a niche and belongs in A-.
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
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One cool thing about using Ray atm is that you can really take advantage of the fact that 56 Spe Arc-Water is becoming increasingly standard. I've been running Naive with Ascent+Draco and they roll 93.4%-110.8% when combined vs 248 HP / 204 Def Bold Arc-Water or to put it another way, always KOing after rocks or a round of Tox damage or whatever. This allows much more breathing room for something like a 3 atks RP Primal Groudon or a Salamence to overwhelm but on the other hand, when compared to the other mons in it's rank it doesn't fit or justify itself on nearly as many teams so maybe a move down to A- is fair. I wouldn't want to see it drop below that though, it's still one of the best mons imo for breaking early game to allow a sweeper to run through later. I'd also be interested to hear more about the Charti lure mentioned in this thread earlier, that's not something I've seen before.

252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Dragon Ascent vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Arceus-Water: 187-222 (42.2 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

40 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Water: 227-269 (51.2 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
kangaskhan to b+ please.This thing is a godsend for bulky offensive/offensive teams due to fake out.Priority is really valuable in a meta such as oras where checking threats solely with defensive synergy is downright impossible.It also is good vs bulky offensive/offensive teams due to its coverage,priority and its power.It has only 2-3 reliable defensive answers being sab,ghostceus and lugia (which loses to pup sets but its a niche set so ill discount it).

Dialga down to b+= It really does not offer much in this meta apart from checking mence. Using shuca berry makes it very easy to wear down. It suffers from horrendous 4mss. It is also outclassed as an sr user by p don which beats both bouncers and pressures defogers and also provides more defensive utility than dialga can even dream of. Dialga is also horrendous as a p ogre check as well as a p bad lati check too.

rayquaza remaining in a- = As hack said this thing has a few cool niches.It can be a soft rp don check by carrying charti berry,Sash is cool for smashpass,provides priority for offense which is always nice and can also do cool stuff like antilead deo-s and can also run stuff like lum berry to antilead drai.

Lopunny to c-= Urgh this mon is just bad. Cant fit on any playstyle except on ho and even on ho its horrible as its set up bait for dangerous sweepers like mence. Sure it can antilead drai and h wish but so can shaymin-sky.If you run ice punch to counteract mence you might as well run another fighting type as h wish is the only niche it has over other fighting types.

also rayquaza's shiny sprite is black so it deffo deserves to be in a-.
 
I don't understand this simple thing:

Klefki: A >>> A-
Mewtwo: A >>> A-


Can you honestly say that Mewtwo fits on as many builds as Klefki? There shouldn't really be an argument. I'd just bump back Klefki to A for the reasons I stated in previous posts. Klefki is undisputably a "very solid mon in the meta".
Judging from the early support on this post and 50/50 support between A- and mid A on the past posts I moved Klefki back to A. Completely agree regarding Dialga and Ray, speaking of which we should probably give ray a small revamp/edit or just add the Charti set with some mentions of Water coverage throughout the analysis... i'll look into that.
 
No Dialga should never drop below A-. As a player who builds a lot of teams I can assure by my experience that the Shuca Berry variant is a great pokemon on BOs and HOs.
1) Releases Primal Groudon from SR duties so he can break stall
2) Nice typing and provides defensive synergy since it can work as a Primal Kyogre check, Mega Salamence check even Primal Groudon and Ekiller Check.
3) Is a good SR user against both Magic Bouncers and is good vs Water Arceus Defog.

It's good vs stall and HO and releases Primal Groudon. Dialga should stay in A-.


Edit: I strongly disagree with some changes specially Latias and Kyogre I will renominate soon.
 
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Agree and disagree with Dab in the same post. Oh gee.

Kang should be B+. Underrated wallbreaker and priority fake outs can literally win you games that you should otherwise lose. Its downside is its lack of recovery so it has to be played intelligently, but people just don't prepare for this thing anymore. PuP _is_ a good set. Make no mistake about it. But then you are guessing between Crunch and Sucker Punch which is no fun against Gengar. [Fake Out/PuP/Return/Crunch seems fine to me ... how many mons in our meta that are fast ONLY run 4 attacks these days? Seems like everything has a non-attacking move]

Mega-Lopunny is not C-. It has the problem of being frail and a victim of priority - unlike OU a really FAST mon without priority doesn't work nearly as well in Ubers - however, it should remain in C. It's key usage is that it can BOP Mega-Sableye due to Scrappy. Very matchup dependent but yes you should be able to fit Ice Punch on it if you insist. Taking out an A-rank Pokemon that is absolutely central to stall IS a niche no matter what way you look at it. We're nominating for C rank here not S.
 
Primal Kyogre: Like seriously B+ ? what are you guys trying to do by fucking up the viability rankings ? making the tier look bad because you don't like it ?
I don't want to talk about offensive Primal Kyogre who is average but defensive Primal Kyogre with Rest and Sleep Talk is really bulky and can easily take hits while being able to fire hits at the same time.
1) Hard hitter(0 SpA Primal Kyogre Scald vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus in Heavy Rain: 186-220 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO)
2) Status absorber versus bulky builds and Darkrai.
3) Free switch in on many Pokemon on stalls and balance builds including Arceus Formes, Lugia, Aegislash and many others.
4) Pressure on Ho-Oh: any Ho-Oh user will think twice before spamming Sacred Fire When Primal Kyogre is around which will diminish the offensive impact of Ho-Oh and increase the pressure on the Ho-Oh user.
5) Check to opposing Kyogres, Giratina-O even Mewtwo and Offensive Pokemon of all kind(+2 252 Atk Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Primal Kyogre: 286-337 (70.7 - 83.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
6) It's weak to Primal Groudon Switch-ins but then again Ice Beam or Toxic can be used to weaken it and open up for something else later.

It has too much utility, mixed bulk and fire power to be in B+. People who got it dropped are comparing it to previous Gens Kyogre which is totally irrelevant here and It's no coincidence that people who nominated it are better and more invested in previous gens than this one.
Anything below A for Primal Kyogre would NOT represent it's Viability in ORAS Ubers.

Latias:
B+ ? Seriously ? while Latios is A ? that's so poor on many levels.
Checks lots of Pokemon like both Primals while having enough speed and fire power to revenge kill others. It also has access to Defog and a solid way to recover health.
I don't see why it was dropped to B+. That's very poor since the only flaw I can see is being weak to Steel types.
It's one of the first Defog choices when you running an offensive Arceus form if you want bulk and it really has lots of usage in tours and outside.
Again, Latias to A or A-, anything else would be wrong on many levels specially for new people looking at the viability ranking.

Arceus Fairy: Checks Salamence, Rayquaza and Primal Groudon while not being weak to Primal Groudon like Arceus Rock. Unlike other Arceus forms who are abused by Xerneas to set up, it can hit it for great damage on the turn it sets up on. Yes it's weak to Ho-oh and Mega Gengar. There's also an Arceus opportunity cost but it doesn't belong to low niche Pokemon like the ones in C so B- at least.

Mewtwo-Y: Unlike Regular Mewtwo it can soft check Darkrai with Insomnia and is faster which makes it avoid the speed ties with other Mewtwo and Mega Gengar. It's also Specially bulky which makes it handle Defog Pokemon like Latis and Arceus Forms with Taunt better. I usually use it many times and specially on Toxic Spikes teams. It has equal viability to regular Mewtwo so A-.

Rayquaza: Only Pokemon able to OHKO Primal Groudon in Harsh sunlight and who force it out 100% of the time. LO 252+ Dragon Accent is so strong it 2HKO's anything in the tier even the bulkiest Pokemon and it also has access to Draco Meteor for Giratina-O who try to Defog. It has a very strong Priority too and has decent bulk and speed to provide utility and no It's not an inferior Mega Salamence since it has priority and OHKO Groudon while Salamence fails to do so.
Rayquaza for A+ since it's very good at the role it's given. It has been excessively used in tours too.
 
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Thugly Duckling

I play TCG now
With the A ranks for the most part cleansed I will nominate and demote several mons throughout the B+ through C- rankings because that portion of the list is an utter mess, with several touches on the currently discussed A ranks.

~

A Rank

This rank is reserved for Pokemon that may have great offensive or defensive capabilities. They tend to be the first to be considered for certain roles, but may need some support to function well.


A-
  • Stay in A-
    Dialga: For the most part I agree with TRout because it does free Groudon from SR setting in order to use a stallbreaker set which does synergy with Dialga because it can defeat MSab and Diancie to set up rocks and pressures Defoggers such as Waterceus with Toxic. All of this is included with being a Mega Salamence check and a Kyogre check that it has always been. It is overall a reliable utility mon with specific niches so it places perfectly in A-. I do dislike that many mons such as Ho-Oh and Groudceus get free turns on it but nonetheless it sets rocks reliably and makes it a valued asset to balanced teams.
  • Stay in A-
    : I do agree with Hack and others that it is a niche mon that gives offense a check to RP don with stone edge when holding charti Berry. Mixed sets running Naive tear down defensive threats such as Arceus Water making it good versus balance and stall, and against offensive it can limit suicide leads to one hazard. An analysis revamp may warrant a raise in viability, imo.

B Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that have decent offensive or defensive capabilities. B rank Pokemon are typically chosen for their specific roles, but need certain degrees of support and/or suffer from higher opportunity costs.

B+
  • B+ >>> A-
    Diancie-Mega: It is a magic bouncer and holds great utility to balance and stall as a given. Diancie is slightly outclassed by Mega Sableye because of its better typing and reliable recovery, but Diancie defines itself by the ability to check birds exceptionally well with good speed and STAB options. It's unrecognizingly a great stealth rock setter that can control hazards on both sides of the spectrum and can Toxic Defoggers; it can even afford to run Heal Bell if your team cannot fit a cleric elsewhere. It has flexible EVs in most cases, able to go with full out offense or can siphon power and speed for bulk which allows it to check Darkrai with a SpD spread or Ho-Oh and salamence with Def investment. It does suffer opportunity cost from being a mega and 4mss but there isn't a mon in the tier that gives a teambuilder as many options as to free Groudon from SR duties, cleric, magic bounce, spread status, and check Ho-Oh.
  • B+ >>> B
    Excadrill: I do not like the idea of Excadrill and Ttar being in the same rank because this mon has a specific role on a single playstyle that requires Ttar, while Ttar is far more splashable overall as a pursuit trapper, Stealth Rock setter, and Mence check in one.
  • Kyogre-Primal: Before giving my thoughts on the recent drop I'd like to hear TRout's opinion and thoughts on it. I do disagree with the drop though. Agreeing with trout
  • Latias: Same as above, but I think Healing Wish is being vastly disregarded in determining its niche in the metagame and is the only reason why it should be considered for a higher rank.
  • B+ >>> C
    Mewtwo-Mega-X: This is a long overdue demotion but short and sweet it's possibly the worst offensive Mega you can choose because it has no way of getting past Mega Sableye cores and has a mediocre typing that leaves it checked by common Fairy and Ghost types. It does have a niche of destroying steel types and functioning as an EKiller check on offense when properly invested, but it is vastly outclassed by other physical attackers and will never be your first choice for a soft check to EKiller nor means of eliminating Steels.
B
  • B >>> C+
    Aegislash: Aegis is an interesting mon. It's a blanket check to psychics and checks Fairy types like Xerneas well which frees up Groudon's slot that is used for Roar, and also can Pursuit trap gengar. But it disappointingly fits only on stall builds (which I have seen it do successfully on only one stall team) and is largely outclassed by Klefki on balance because it can't set spikes, or check everything reliant on its speed with priority Thunder Wave. As explained in Hack's entry into the Teambuilding Competition, Aegislash's saving niche is in the stall vs stall matchup where it stands out as a toxic spammer that pressures clerics with Iron Head + the above stated traits. Balance can attempt to use this mon to be exxxxxtra secure against GeoXern, but it is a liability against offense because it is simply food to Dark-types and is set up fodder for insert threat after checking GeoXern, traits which are not present to Klefki. Fortunately it is a standalone Pokemon and fulfills its roles with minimal support, but requires a defensive backbone to be usable at all.
  • B >>> C+ or C
    Clefable: It is largely an inferior Blissey that will make your stall team a bit weak to CM POgre but stronger against CM Arceus and Yveltal. For a cleric and wishpasser it isn't anything special—it has average stats that are not enough to supplement its ability Unaware and falls short on being able to check all of GeoXern / Arceus / and Yveltal because of low defenses and 4mss in which case you want to be running Protect / wish / toxic / moonblast / Heal Bell. Forgoing protect means you won't stand a chance against GeoXern; losing Moonblast means Yvealtal can Taunt and overpower with O-wing; going without toxic means you cannot do much at all to CM Arceus and become a free switch in for Groudon and Ho-Oh, and not running Heal Bell means your stall team will lose to toxic spam lol. Blissey always has room for toxic, softboiled, heal bell, snatch or wish, and has the option to run Shed shell. Clefable's only niche is making your team slightly better against some boosting sweepers such as EKiller and also running a very subpar CM set that can countersweep Xerneas and CM arcs and check Yveltal all at once by forgoing the ability to wishpass (as seen in Sweep's Momo stall).
  • B >>> C+
    Groudon: It's the cornerstone of classic sun and a physical check if I ever seen one. It's only niche is checking Pdon / EKiller / Mence once or twice in a match and providing 5 turn sun for Blaziken / Ho-Oh or both. There is little to no reason to ever use it outside this playstyle and unless this is the case using PDon is always the superior option.

B-
  • B- >>> C
    Arceus-Dark: It's a hard check to Latis and Ghostceus but lost its niche of breaking stall because of snatch bliss and won't be doing so unless you are running an MGar to give the time to Fairy types. It doesn't set up ever against offense and balance has great answers such as Ho-Oh and Xerneas. Perish trap is a good set that kills things like Klefki and Ho-Oh and should be looked into more.
  • Arceus-Dragon: I don't quite get the hype for this right now but on paper it checks Mence and PDon so I won't question it unless proven that Waterceus outclasses it in most if not all situations.
  • Bronzong: I'd like to nom this Pokemon to B because it just seems a lot more viable than other things in B-. I lack any expertise on this mon because it is fairly new but I don't doubt somebody will nom it up in the near future.
  • B- >>> B
    Lucario-Mega: This may seem biased to nominate up because I wrote the revamp for it but it's seriously the only thing that can 6-0 stall atm because it has an immunity to toxic and a 4x resistance to SR, and stall has almost zero counterplay against it. It does have some utility against offense and balance with bullet punch allowing it to revenge Geomancy Xerneas, and it outclasses the other two Megas in Metagross and Scizor that can do this as well because it can actually do something against stall with SD and has an above average speed tier that aids in facing balance and bulky offense. It's certainly easier to fit onto teams than Blaziken and MMX so a raise is necessary.
  • B- >>> C+
    Metagross-Mega: Metagross is just a simple Pursuit trapper that eats up Latis and can check GeoXern. It lacks recovery and so in taking any chip damage switching into Fairy and Dragon type attacks (which it will have to) it will fail to check GeoXern. For those reasons it is largely outclassed by Scizor which sports reliable recovery and U-turn to pivot out of its checks.

C Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that serve specific niches in the metagame. C Rank Pokemon can be very reliant on team members for support just to minimize their flaws as well as to function. They may also suffer from large degrees of opportunity cost to the point of being outclassed in some areas.

C+
  • C+ >>> B-
    : It does the same think as Genesect which is pivoting out of bulky Fire types with U-Turn but with more bulk to switch into Latis better and to check GeoXern and has access to Healing Wish, so it should not be in the same rank as Genesect. I think support sets with SR+U-turn should be tested because on paper it can set hazards reliably on Latis and clerics, beats one of the Magic Bouncers, and pivots out of its checks with U-Turn and can possibly WishPass. (E: Either raise this or drop Genesect to C after talking with some auth in Ubers room)
  • C+ >>> D
    Kyurem-White: This rank is reserved for Pokemon that serve specific niches and may rely on teammates for support. This Pokemon has no niche and no combination within 5 team slots can cover the build flaws brought by Kyurem. Useless mon goes to the useless rank.
  • C+ >>> C-
    Slowbro-Mega: I never quite understood how this passed through QC but it did and apparently is viable. Off the bat it has amazing defense letting it check mega Mence and PDon, but it has little utility outside of that and it is horribly passive making it so Klefki can set spikes all over it, is prone to status, and not to mention it takes up a mega slot. I wouldn't ever use it over something like Water Arceus which can check the same things and also Defog.
C
  • C >>> C+
    Smeargle: C rank sort of implies it requires team support but this is hardly true at all. Smeargle justifies itself in being the reason SmashPass exists which is certainly a viable playstyle because the the combination of Mega Diancie and Primal Groudon have buffed it significantly.

~


Hopefully this post reflects the current metagame and meant something in cleaning up the lower ranks because they are a freakin mess lol. I urge that debatable mons like Clefable, Darkceus, Dragceus, Aegislash, and Bronzong be discussed because they have either become outclassed to a certain degree worthy of discussion or unexplored enough to not have a properly determined rank.


E: Going to try and get Goth through QC too, support arcs are becoming popular on balance and Klefki is as good as ever so Goth just seems to have a place in this tier again.
 
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Thugly Duckling
With the popularity of Klefki this rises as a hard hitter who is free switch in to it. while you talked about sand you forgot to talk about the Sash lead. Mold Breaker Toxic and Stealth Rock are Great vs Stall and make you directly take the advantage without any prediction. It's aslo good vs HO. It should stay in B+ since it has 2 viable sets with viable utility.
I wont protect it. I will let steelphoenix do so since he build with it a lot. For me it should be in B minimum though.
Counters Mewtwo and Latis and pursuit trap them. It also Counters Xerneas as well as Diancie and can absorb Toxic while having a solid protecting move to scout. Stay in B because it counters Pokemon high up the viability ranking while not being passive.
It checks Latis, Mewtwo and Yveltal as well as Darkrai. Some teams are really unprepared for it too offensively. It's aslo great vs anything not HO when paired with Gengar. Stay in B. This is a replay of Darren using my Darkceus Gengar team in POCL week 2 to back up my argument.
 
With the A ranks for the most part cleansed I will nominate and demote several mons throughout the B+ through C- rankings because that portion of the list is an utter mess, with several touches on the currently discussed A ranks.

~
A Rank

This rank is reserved for Pokemon that may have great offensive or defensive capabilities. They tend to be the first to be considered for certain roles, but may need some support to function well.


A-
  • Stay in A-
    Dialga: For the most part I agree with TRout because it does free Groudon from SR setting in order to use a stallbreaker set which does synergy with Dialga because it can defeat MSab and Diancie to set up rocks and pressures Defoggers such as Waterceus with Toxic. All of this is included with being a Mega Salamence check and a Kyogre check that it has always been. It is overall a reliable utility mon with specific niches so it places perfectly in A-. I do dislike that many mons such as Ho-Oh and Groudceus get free turns on it but nonetheless it sets rocks reliably and makes it a valued asset to balanced teams.
  • Stay in A-
    : I do agree with Hack and others that it is a niche mon that gives offense a check to RP don with stone edge when holding charti Berry. Mixed sets running Naive tear down defensive threats such as Arceus Water making it good versus balance and stall, and against offensive it can limit suicide leads to one hazard. An analysis revamp may warrant a raise in viability, imo.

B Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that have decent offensive or defensive capabilities. B rank Pokemon are typically chosen for their specific roles, but need certain degrees of support and/or suffer from higher opportunity costs.

B+
  • B+ >>> A-
    Diancie-Mega: It is a magic bouncer and holds great utility to balance and stall as a given. Diancie is slightly outclassed by Mega Sableye because of its better typing and reliable recovery, but Diancie defines itself by the ability to check birds exceptionally well with good speed and STAB options. It's unrecognizingly a great stealth rock setter that can control hazards on both sides of the spectrum and can Toxic Defoggers; it can even afford to run Heal Bell if your team cannot fit a cleric elsewhere. It has flexible EVs in most cases, able to go with full out offense or can siphon power and speed for bulk which allows it to check Darkrai with a SpD spread or Ho-Oh and salamence with Def investment. It does suffer opportunity cost from being a mega and 4mss but there isn't a mon in the tier that gives a teambuilder as many options as to free Groudon from SR duties, cleric, magic bounce, spread status, and check Ho-Oh.
  • B+ >>> B
    Excadrill: I do not like the idea of Excadrill and Ttar being in the same rank because this mon has a specific role on a single playstyle that requires Ttar, while Ttar is far more splashable overall as a pursuit trapper, Stealth Rock setter, and Mence check in one.
  • Kyogre-Primal: Before giving my thoughts on the recent drop I'd like to hear TRout's opinion and thoughts on it. I do disagree with the drop though. Agreeing with trout
  • Latias: Same as above, but I think Healing Wish is being vastly disregarded in determining its niche in the metagame and is the only reason why it should be considered for a higher rank.
  • B+ >>> C
    Mewtwo-Mega-X: This is a long overdue demotion but short and sweet it's possibly the worst offensive Mega you can choose because it has no way of getting past Mega Sableye cores and has a mediocre typing that leaves it checked by common Fairy and Ghost types. It does have a niche of destroying steel types and functioning as an EKiller check on offense when properly invested, but it is vastly outclassed by other physical attackers and will never be your first choice for a soft check to EKiller nor means of eliminating Steels.
B
  • B >>> C
    Aegislash: Aegis is an interesting mon. It's a blanket check to psychics and checks Fairy types like Xerneas well which frees up Groudon's slot that is used for Roar, and also can Pursuit trap gengar. But it disappointingly fits only on stall builds (which I have seen it do successfully on only one stall team) and is largely outclassed by Klefki on balance because it can't set spikes, or check everything reliant on its speed with priority Thunder Wave. As explained in Hack's entry into the Teambuilding Competition, Aegislash's saving niche is in the stall vs stall matchup where it stands out as a toxic spammer that pressures clerics with Iron Head + the above stated traits. Balance can attempt to use this mon to be exxxxxtra secure against GeoXern, but it is a liability against offense because it is simply food to Dark-types and is set up fodder for insert threat after checking GeoXern, traits which are not present to Klefki. Fortunately it is a standalone Pokemon and fulfills its roles with minimal support, but requires a defensive backbone to be usable at all.
  • B >>> C+ or C
    Clefable: It is largely an inferior Blissey that will make your stall team a bit weak to CM POgre but stronger against CM Arceus and Yveltal. For a cleric and wishpasser it isn't anything special—it has average stats that are not enough to supplement its ability Unaware and falls short on being able to check all of GeoXern / Arceus / and Yveltal because of low defenses and 4mss in which case you want to be running Protect / wish / toxic / moonblast / Heal Bell. Forgoing protect means you won't stand a chance against GeoXern; losing Moonblast means Yvealtal can Taunt and overpower with O-wing; going without toxic means you cannot do much at all to CM Arceus and become a free switch in for Groudon and Ho-Oh, and not running Heal Bell means your stall team will lose to toxic spam lol. Blissey always has room for toxic, softboiled, heal bell, snatch or wish, and has the option to run Shed shell. Clefable's only niche is making your team slightly better against some boosting sweepers such as EKiller and also running a very subpar CM set that can countersweep Xerneas and CM arcs and check Yveltal all at once by forgoing the ability to wishpass (as seen in Sweep's Momo stall).
  • B >>> C+
    Groudon: It's the cornerstone of classic sun and a physical check if I ever seen one. It's only niche is checking Pdon / EKiller / Mence once or twice in a match and providing 5 turn sun for Blaziken / Ho-Oh or both. There is little to no reason to ever use it outside this playstyle and unless this is the case using PDon is always the superior option.

B-
  • B- >>> C
    Arceus-Dark: It's a hard check to Latis and Ghostceus but lost its niche of breaking stall because of snatch bliss and won't be doing so unless you are running an MGar to give the time to Fairy types. It doesn't set up ever against offense and balance has great answers such as Ho-Oh and Xerneas. Perish trap is a good set that kills things like Klefki and Ho-Oh and should be looked into more.
  • Arceus-Dragon: I don't quite get the hype for this right now but on paper it checks Mence and PDon so I won't question it unless proven that Waterceus outclasses it in most if not all situations.
  • Bronzong: I'd like to nom this Pokemon to B because it just seems a lot more viable than other things in B-. I lack any expertise on this mon because it is fairly new but I don't doubt somebody will nom it up in the near future.
  • B- >>> B
    Lucario-Mega: This may seem biased to nominate up because I wrote the revamp for it but it's seriously the only thing that can 6-0 stall atm because it has an immunity to toxic and a 4x resistance to SR, and stall has almost zero counterplay against it. It does have some utility against offense and balance with bullet punch allowing it to revenge Geomancy Xerneas, and it outclasses the other two Megas in Metagross and Scizor that can do this as well because it can actually do something against stall with SD and has an above average speed tier that aids in facing balance and bulky offense. It's certainly easier to fit onto teams than Blaziken and MMX so a raise is necessary.
  • B- >>> C+
    Metagross-Mega: Metagross is just a simple Pursuit trapper that eats up Latis and can check GeoXern. It lacks recovery and so in taking any chip damage switching into Fairy and Dragon type attacks (which it will have to) it will fail to check GeoXern. For those reasons it is largely outclassed by Scizor which sports reliable recovery and U-turn to pivot out of its checks.

C Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that serve specific niches in the metagame. C Rank Pokemon can be very reliant on team members for support just to minimize their flaws as well as to function. They may also suffer from large degrees of opportunity cost to the point of being outclassed in some areas.

C+
  • C+ >>> B-
    : It does the same think as Genesect which is pivoting out of bulky Fire types with U-Turn but with more bulk to switch into Latis better and to check GeoXern and has access to Healing Wish, so it should not be in the same rank as Genesect. I think support sets with SR+U-turn should be tested because on paper it can set hazards reliably on Latis and clerics, beats one of the Magic Bouncers, and pivots out of its checks with U-Turn and can possibly WishPass.
  • C+ >>> D
    Kyurem-White: This rank is reserved for Pokemon that serve specific niches and may rely on teammates for support. This Pokemon has no niche and no combination within 5 team slots can cover the build flaws brought by Kyurem. Useless mon goes to the usesless rank.
  • C+ >>> C-
    Slowbro-Mega: I never quite understood how this passed through QC but it did and apparently is viable. Off the bat it has amazing defense letting it check mega Mence and PDon, but it has little utility outside of that and it is horribly passive making it so Klefki can set spikes all over it, is prone to status, and not to mention it takes up a mega slot. I wouldn't ever use it over something like Water Arceus which can check the same things and also Defog.
(
C
  • C >>> C+
    Smeargle: C rank sort of implies it requires team support but this is hardly true at all. Smeargle justifies itself in being the reason SmashPass exists which is certainly a viable playstyle because the the combination of Mega Diancie and Primal Groudon have buffed it significantly.

~


Hopefully this post meant something in cleaning up the lower ranks because they are a freakin mess lol. I urge that debatable mons like Clefable, Darkceus, Dragceus, Aegislash, and Bronzong be discussed because they have either become outclassed to a certain degree worthy of discussion or unexplored enough to not have a properly determined rank.


E: Going to try and get Goth through QC too, support arcs are becoming popular on balance and Klefki is as good as ever so Goth just seems to have a place in this tier again.
diancie mega to a-= completely agree its quite a good n underrated mon. While the offensive set is pretty mediocre the defensive set is pretty beastly as it can check ho-oh,yveltal,drai,mence much better than offensive set can dream of and can also run cool stuff like heal bell,sr,toxic etc.

excadrill to b= disagree as excadrill does quite a bit of stuff like hazard control,speed control,xern check and can also use air baloon to be a one time check to dd don which is huge and also antileads deo-s.

mewtwo mega x to c= strongly disagree as while mmx suffers from a few flaws (being walled by ghosts,having 4mss etc but it has many cool niches such as soft checking ekiller,checking d rai,fucks up sand and also does well against the standard ho.

arceus-dark to c= STRONGLY disagree. While darkceus has its fair share of flaws like being xern bait,ho-oh bait and being weak to ho it still fulfills a lot of cool niches like ghostceus check,latias/os check(prolly the best the tier has),can potentially check ekiller if u rly want,checks yveltal and also checks mmy and regular mewtwo so its a pretty solid mon. also its black so yeah

aegislash to c=disagree should drop to b- instead.it provides decent utility in checking latis,xern,helping in stall wars and also can check the mewtwo formes depending on the moveset and also check diancie.its main flaws are not being very splashable and being bait to don and burd but i still think its b- worthy.
 
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Level 56

Faded memories
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis the 6th Grand Slam Winner
Mega-Diancie B+ >>> A-
Yeah I've been using Mega-Diancie in tour matches for a while now, and i believe it should move up to A-. It is blessed with nice speed n power, movepool and ability. It functions really well against stall/balance and also does fairly well against offense. On most stall teams, Waterceus is the only thing that can reliably switch in against Diancie, but the toxic set can deal with it. Once waterceus is poisoned, its quite hard for it to switch in next time against Diancie. Outside of this, Diancie easily threatens most of the common stuff such as mence, darkrai, ho-oh, rayquaza, klefki, Lati@s, Yveltal, Sableye etc. Its ability to check birds is great and it can also be used as a cleric on some teams. On smash pass teams, it works great as a stealth rock user and manages to keep its team safe from hazards. It has some weaknesses outside of all this, but It definately deserves to be in A-.

 

Thugly Duckling

I play TCG now
Re: Lord Outrage & DracoMaster Dab

Regarding Excadrill -- You are right, I did forget about the sash lead which may have been worth a mention, although I disagree that it is a reason to keep Exca in B+. On paper the sash lead seems cool and using toxic on Waterceus on the switch is cute but in the stall/balance matchup its sash can be broken by Sab's Fake Out and it can be subsequently burned by Sab which can be detrimental in it checking possible steels throughout the match. The ultimate flaw of lead Exca though is that it needs a defensive neck to function properly as a lead. For instance, Mence can simply lead against it and use it as setup fodder with Substitute or Refresh and is in general a mediocre lead because it applies very little pressure against most offensive threats such as Arceus, meaning you have to run defensive answers to these mons and leaves your 'offensive' team not as good offensively as intended to be. It doesn't have Taunt and cannot stop defogs and setup mons whatsoever which I feel makes it an inferior choice to mons like Deoxys-A, Deoxys-S, and even Forretress. It's largely a matchup reliant lead that is a niche choice if ever in order to cteam other leads. This Pokemon's niche lies on being the reason to run sand and because it has little splashability outside of this playstyle it cannot be any higher in rank than the Pokemon that makes sand exist: Ttar. In comparison to its overhyped lead set there really isn't much to compare—Sand Rush Excadrill threatens stall with Jolly Swords Dance to pose a threat against stall and balance, outspeeds GeoXern in sand, soft checks EKiller in sand, can run Air Balloon to check DD Groudon, and overall has more relevant reasons to be used over Mold Breaker Exca which basically funnels down to a mediocre lead that makes your team lose to turn 1 set up mons for the trade of being decent vs Deo leads and Magic bouncers. Besides setting hazards Sand Rush Excadrill poses an even greater threat to stall with Swords Dance than lead does, has an even better HO matchup because it outspeeds everything in sand, and has more niche utility such as running Air Balloon to give sand a check to DD donner which it can struggle against. Nonetheless its roles are confined to a single playstyle and would not exist without ttar, and must be in B.

Regarding mmx -- would like to hear what steelphoenix has to say about it too because he has some good shit to say. Though I will say now that because it poses no threat whatsoever against stall in comparison to other other Megas such as Lucario, Mence, and even MMY there is little to no reason to use it but does have a good matchup against HO and sand as stated by Dab. Though its flaws in being walled by Ghosts, checked by Fairy types, and 4mss are few in number the magnitude of these flaws are huge when put into perspective because it can't touch stall and well built balance at all.

Regarding Aegislash -- what both of you said is true but how are these qualities put into effect when it fits onto one good ORAS stall? The rankings are a reflection of how well Pokemon fit onto teams and Aegislash cannot do this without being entirely outclassed by Klefki on balanced builds, restricted to stall team(s), and irrelevant to offensive builds. It does have a valuable niche on stall for giving the team it works on extra security against Xerneas and company and pressures clerics, but again I stress it is not splashable whatsoever and C+ reflects this well.

Regarding Arceus-Dark -- TRout the replay you provided does little to support your argument. Had you given a replay where Arceus Dark's niches are actually applied I would be convinced perhaps even to the slightest but you only have made Darkceus seem like a mediocre Arceus form at at best because it requires very specific support from Mega Gengar which we all know is a difficult Pokemon to use well and takes up your mega. Being an average at best Arceus form that is food to Ho-Oh and set up fodder to Xerneas AND requiring a mega does not make it an appealing choice. Not only this, why the heck would I want to use an Arceus dark as my check to Darks? Mons that are much easier to fit such as Klefki and Xerneas do this much better + some more and don't suffer the opportunity cost of being an Arceus form. Dab stated that it is a check to Mewtwo but a terrible one at that because nearly all Mewtwo should be running focus blast (which does a crapton of damage to Darkceus btw) in order to break down Tyranitar stall. Perhaps C+ can be OK but I'm being nice to it even with that rank. Taking up an Arceus form is just very burdensome and requiring specific support from a mega makes it difficult to splash onto teams because in using it your mega and Arceus form slots are immediately exhausted.

~

It really needs to be taken into mind that a mon's niches cannot be applied unless the mon itself can actually be put into teams without entirely being outclassed by another Pokemon. A lot of these arguments i'm reading seem to forget just this and make for non-contributive posts because they miss the entire point of the thread which is to reflect which mons are the most usable and fit onto teams.
 
A-rank mons tend to be considered first for certain roles, according to definitions, and I don't see Kyogre being an A-rank just because of that fact. Even though it's a rather pointless definition in Ubers as traditional roles such as wallbreakers/stallbreakers/walls/tanks are too hard to quantify (what does a wallbreaker in particular do in ubers, hitting hard only implies it has good offensive stats, not that it breaks any walls for example), there is one thing that I am sure of and that is that Kyogre isn't exactly the best mon for what it does. Even Primal Groudon tends to be a better way to pressure Ho-oh in practice.

I can definitely see Latias back in A- though. It's still the best balance Defog mon for teams that don't want to run an Arceus for that duty, and I think there have been quite a few good squads with the mon.

Arceus-Fairy is probably C+ or B-, it's worse than Dragon so let the ranks reflect that.

Mewtwo-Y simply has too much opportunity cost. For offense the loss of Mega Salamence is especially big, and balanced teams enjoy Gengar's versatility more in most cases. I think it's fair to put MMY below regular Mewtwo as there has been more teams with the latter that are noteable.

Rayquaza isn't nearly as splashable as A+, as I said it is only viable when you run some kinda offense without Mega Salamence. It's a very one dimensional mon, just like Primal Kyogre.

In summary most of Outrage's suggestions make sense when you look at it from a perspective of "can this mon be great on a team once in a while?". Of course so, but the pattern is that these mons are simply too one dimensional to be splashable enough for higher ranks.

For thugly's suggestions, I obviously agree with Rayquaza. Additonally I agree with the Diancie, Exca, Clefable, Groudon for the reasons he stated.

Dialga is lower than A- for me, for the reasons I had in my previous post.

I think MMX to C is a bit harsh, but I agree it could probably drop 1-2 subranks.

Aegislash could probably be B- if you ask me. It has to be used on bulkier builds but hey, what's wrong with that?

Arceus-Dark is not to be bundled together with shit like Arceus-Fighting and the likes. It still potentially breaks stall because 16 pp snatch isn't a perfect solution. Ask Kebabe what he feels regarding this.

Lucario and Zong I have no opinions on.

Mega Metagross should simply be unranked. It can't really contribute to any playstyle as far as I see it. It's most probable niche would be on balance but faces so much competition from Klefki. It has the same problems as Bronzong essentially (the lack of synergy with Dark checks makes your team either weak to those mons or Ho-oh/pdon) but with the lack of some nice traits like Levitate. For pursuit on balance, I even think Aegislash is more viable as it doesn't take away the opportunity to use some other (read: good) mega.

Jirachi I'm not so sure about. Sure is better than Metagross- Wish is a nice asset as well - I just haven't made any good teams with it. I'd have to abstain.

Kyurem-W is a shitty mon that I really couldn't care about less.

Mega Bro is something I'm working on rn so I gotta think more before I talk.

And yeah I can kinda agree with Smeargle as well.
 
I like Dialga, status + a solid Ho-Oh check is enough to forgo Stone Edge and Draco Meteor / Flash Cannon / Toxic or TWave (I prefer TWave to potentially annoy steels like Klefki) / Stealth Rock is a perfectly solid set. Your opponent won't blindly risk their Klefki / Ferrothorn to Fire Blast until they scout your entire set, and Shuca makes it a really good Mence check. I don't know why people use Shuca Dialga to 1-1 Groudon, especially when people are starting to creep the latter a fair amount, making such an endeavor risky. A- seems fine to me, but it's not the easiest Pokemon to fit and isn't versatile so I'm not viciously opposed to B+.

MM2X is fine, just really match-up reliant. It's very easy to justify over Mega Mence on HO to reliably check EKiller with a 144 defense spread (instead of potentially getting murdered by a +1 Stone Edge) while keeping Deo-S's hazards up with a really fast Taunt. It's completely useless against stall teams and hates Xerneas, but that's the risk you take when you use it.

Agreed with Hack on Mega Metagross, if it could do cool shit like seriously threaten Primal Groudon with Earthquake and OHKO Ho-Oh with Thunderpunch it might be cool. Sadly, it can't. Pursuit trapping a very exploitable Pokemon in Latias is no amazing feat, and there are other Pursuit trappers in this tier (and these can potentially trap Gengar as well instead of getting murdered by Shadow Ball or Hex). It also has 4MSS in the worst way. Unrank this please.

Excadrill got more usage in SPL than it deserved, but it's a pretty good mon. Life Orb can potentially break support Arceus in two hits and it is massively threatening to both Primal Groudon and Xerneas, two fairly decent Pokemon. It isn't total deadweight outside of Sand, although I obviously wouldn't use it without Tyranitar. Definitely B+ worthy IMO.


Some of you guys are acting like a B+ grade is terrible, when in reality it indicates a Pokemon that is effective in the metagame, but has glaring flaws. It's not like Latias and Primal Kyogre were put in C :/. Latias being weak to steels / HO / not being able to hard check hardly anything are all glaring weaknesses, and so long Primal Groudon exists Kyogre's life is gonna be tough. Kyogre can try to circumvent it
 

hyw

Banned deucer.
I would like to add to this discussion by saying that I am in 110% concurrence with Hack, Sweep, and perhaps others (I have not read every post here) regarding the ranking of Primal Kyogre. Primal Kyogre is, in my opinion, just as over-centralizing as Primal Groudon in ORAS but in an antithetical fashion; the two's abilities go hand-in-hand when concerning the viability of Pokémon in this tier in general. The reason that Primal Groudon is on 99% of teams can be largely attributed to the mere existence of Primal Kyogre, as it would otherwise be too overwhelming of a threat.

This is reflected in the changes I made to a team that I built in XY, which underwent major tweaks upon the arrival of ORAS. In XY, the team that I made consisted of the following: Deoxys-S, Groudon, Darkrai, Rayquaza, Xerneas, and Ekiller. My team-building process for this team reflects the over-centralization of Kyogre in XY as the team was built to abuse its prevalence. This was done by switching Groudon into Kyogre's move, letting it die as it leaves sun up on the field, then bringing in one of the four set-up sweepers to sweep. This is done whilst keeping Stealth Rocks on the field and wearing down the opponent's team before the sweeper is brought in. Credit for this tactic goes to alexwolf and Transcendent God Champion who came up with the idea of beating Kyogre by utilizing Groudon's sun in BW, and I believe orch can attest to the effectiveness of this team and tactic through the numerous games we have played in preparation for the currently on-going XY tournament.

However, the introduction of Desolate Land and Primordial Sea altered the landscape of the metagame entirely. Since the Sun brought by Drought fails to replace the Rain brought by Primordial Sea, I had to give my Groudon a Red Orb to turn the tables on Primal Kyogre. The fact that this team subsequently became the principle outline for standard hyper-offense proves the fact that while Primal Kyogre is a threat necessary to be reckoned with, the reality of Primal Groudon running rampant alongside it means that, one, Primal Kyogre has a difficult time doing its job, which leads to two, that it faces competition from Primal Groudon in checking threats. Due to the overvaluation of Primal Kyogre in ORAS by the Ubers community, there may be those who disagree with Primal Kyogre's ranking, but this post serves as a bolster to the drop in this Pokémon's ranking.
 
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i don't really agree

p-ogre in juxtaposition to mewtwos / ferro etc is so misleading. i get that u guys don't rly like it, but it's still a soft check to pdon / ho-oh and still poses a hella large threat... cmon..................... it's best used on offense tho. defensive is meh. a- at worst lol
 

Thugly Duckling

I play TCG now
Disagreeing with unranking Metagross because of the other 3 B rank steels that can soft check Xerneas it's the only one that can bait Ho-Oh and KO with Rock Slide. The team Fireburn used in SPL vs. Donkey showcases this well because when paired with mons such as ScarfXern and CM Lati@s it is worthwhile to use over Mega Scizor, Jirachi, and even Mega Lucario. For this reason only I didn't nominate it in my big post to be completely unranked... it is outclassed for the most part by Jirachi because that can wish and hold lefties and doesn't take up the mega but Metagross makes for a pretty solid Ho-Oh lure with a decent defensive typing and speed tier that is not a passive GeoXern check in comparison to WishRachi and MegaZor.
 
Mega Kangaskhan should be B+. I have found Mega Kangaskhan as one of the most powerful in this metagame.
It has access to Parental Bond which not only makes you attack twice but it allows status inflict on moves an increase in %.
Even though the general Mega Kangaskhan population does not use this, this move is really good and can really turn the tide in battle. I consider it a disappointment that nobody runs this on Mega Kangaskhan.
Body Slam
This move normally has a 30% to paralyze a foe but with Parental Bond it becomes 51%. This means that it is likely that you could paralyze your opponent. This means can prevent pokemon from sweeping your team.

Plus on top of that Mega Kangaskhan is already extremely diverse so it is possible you could mispredict a moveset and it totally come backs to haunt you.
Here is a list of common moves on Mega Kangaskhan in usage order.
Fake Out
Return/Frustration
Sucker Punch
Power-Up-Punch
Crunch
Earthquake
Low Kick
Ice Punch
Body Slam
Drain Punch
PuP Kanga can for example sweep quicker but is more prone to be countered by Steels and Ghosts.
My Kangaskhan with Fake Out, Body Slam, Earthquake, Sucker Punch is for example able to cover Steel and Rocks that are not Skarmory or Ferrothorn and can sometimes even Suckermore often due to the moveset of Kanga not being a clear PuP set.
I feel like the Low Ladder has blinded high ladder players into believing that Mega Kangaskhan is bad when in reality it is great. Many of the stronger moves such as Earthquake or Body Slam are not being used over moves such as Crunch for example.
 
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