ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[Kyuzeth]

I'm just curious, has Rayquaza been considered for ranking changes and, if it has, what was the reasoning for it staying in A-?

Other than that, I don't really know if the Eons should be A+ or S-. There is a large gap between the two ranks and honestly, I cannot put a direct tier to them. They both have their own qualities and flaws that set them apart, but are they similar enough to always be ranked together or do their differences show a clear difference in viability in Ubers as well?

Latias

Latias
+ Solid 80/130 special bulk compounded by Soul Dew
+ 110 SAtk (boosted by Soul Dew) and Spe give it great offensive presence for supporting and defensive roles
+ Fantastic supporter with access to moves like Defog, Healing Wish and Screens
+ Can run bulky attacking sets with good longevity and power
+ Reliable recovery in Recover/Roost
- Defensive sets prone to being easily checked and being set-up/Taunt bait
- Vulnerable to Pursuit
- Has trouble breaking through some Pokémon

Latios

Latios
+ Amazing 130 SAtk bolstered by Soul Dew gives it the most raw special power in the game
+ 110 Speed outpaces several common threats
+ Works as a great offensive supporter with Defog; not only removes hazards, but guarantees slower opponent to stomach a DM
+ Has the option to run Dual Screen Memento to let boosting sweepers set up easily
+ Reliable recovery in Recover/Roost
- Pursuit mauls it
- Poorer bulk than Latias, much frailer overall
- Offensive sets are forced to sack either boosting, recovery or coverage

In the end, both have a lot of pros that earn them a really high ranking, but the question is whether these two Pokémon are really on the same level. Latias obviously has much better supporting capacity, but Latios can demolish nearly anything after setting up CM. Both are extremely vulnerable to Pursuit; Latias's support sets risk being Taunt bait, while Latios is kinda frail and easily disposed of by strong attackers.

 

[squidlick]

Finally, Smeargle was removed. Knew it wouldn't last much longer if Shuckle was gone.

Regarding Mega Mawile:

A MeVo that loses hard to PDon, can be beaten by the things it checks, and offers very little utility isn't a worthwhile use of a MeVo. Granted, a lot of the MeVos have something to watch out for when facing Don(offensive MegaMence without Refresh needs to watch out for Stone Edge/Lava Plume, Gengar loses its Ground immunity and will die to anything, Diancie gets rekd by PBlades, etc), but they all offer much higher utility and offensive prowess, and can actually fight back. Mega Mawile gets precisely NOTHING reliable(except Sucker Punch, and it's unreliable due to Donner's versatility; a misprediction means rocks on your side, free switch into another check, PDon using a boosting move, Thunder Wave, etc) to fight back against PDon while PDon smashes it with Blades/a Fire move. And of course, opportunity cost.

It shouldn't rise at all.

 

[Rarycaris]

Is there any reason Ditto is low ranked other than being "lazy"? This is Smogon -- we shouldn't be ranking Pokemon based on how skillful or original their sets are. I'm assuming there are other reasons why it's bad?

The top four Pokemon in the viability rankings are all primarily setup sweepers (except maybe PDon but setup sets are definitely used) -- beating them is Ditto's main niche. A Pokemon that beats half of S-rank 1v1 and actively deters using three of them in the first place doesn't seem like "it's only on this list because we're not allowed to remove it yet" material to me.

 

[QueenOfHax]

This post http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/creative-underrated-uber-sets-v3-no-gimmicks-plz.3517241/page-3#post-6032028 from the creative sets thread shows how M-Mawile is not deadweight against Primal Groudon, and is in fact quite effective at gaining momentum with Baton Pass when paired with Primal Kyogre (since P. Groudon WILL be forced out every time).
Watch the replay, because that's defintely not the performance I would expect from a D-ranked pokemon.

 

[Sweep]

Ditto is completely useless vs stall and bad vs balance and bulky offensive teams. Yes, it matches up well vs setup sweepers but that is it...due to its awful base hp stat it might not fare as well vs dpn and mence as you think. It is excellent vs a strong playstyle in Hyper Offense though, so that alone makes it an interesting option for counterstyling certain players, as well as the ladder.

 

[Bluwing]

Mega-Beedrill for C rank:

mega-beedrill first off is incredibly fast, beats every psychic type in the tier and has a solid niche in providing momentum extremely well as being probably the best offensive pursuit trapper in ubers atm. it has solid offensive presence, kinda subpar dual stab combo, but being able to scout with protect and being able to check the fairy and psychic types roaming in the tier with a super fast u-turn, makes it incredibly hard to play around.

 

[Minority]

Mega Beedrill is pretty much an inferior Scarf Genesect that wastes a mega slot and is unable to revenge Mega Mence. It can't Pursuit Lati well compared to other offensive and defensive Pursuit trappers because it is unable to switch into either of its attacks (it's also weaker than other Pursuit trappers while having less utility). I made an honest attempt to use it earlier in the meta and I just don't see how it has a justifiable niche over the aforementioned Pokemon which in their own right aren't that fantastic to begin with.

 

[gepesek]

I want to talk about this one:

Landorus to B rank: Recently i added Landorus to my team and works really well. Sheer Force+Life Orb Earth Power OHKO Primal Groudon, and combined with inmunity to Earthquake/Precipice Blades makes Lando a great check for him. Earth Power also destroy Aegislash,Dialga, Zekrom, Reshiram, Arceus Steel/Rock/Poison, Diance, Mega Mawile or deals amount of damage to anything that don't resist it. Slugde Wave hurts Geomancy Xerneas before the boost and Grass Knot can surprise aand KO a non invested Primal Kyogre, being Landoruss faster than all this pokemon mentioned above, maybe except Arceus. Stealth Rocks is also good option because even in Ubers Landorus create a lot of switches. On the other side, Landorus is totally walled by Lati@s, Lugia, Ho-Oh, Yveltal and Giratina, so it's a pokemon that you never will build a team around him, but can fit on any team that need a check for Primal Groudon, or any Steel type. That's why i propose Landorus for rank B, for the ability to defeat a great variety of dangerous pokemon in the metagame, but also beign destroyed for another great variety.

 

[Nayrz]

Update time! it seems things are quiet this week viability-wise but perhaps thats to do with the upl break, we might see some new stuff coming up now that its back on.

Change List:

Mawile-Mega: D >>> C

Baton Pass gives Mawile a way to turn its many unfavorable matchups into something salvageable. While using a mega slot simply for an offensive pivot screams opportunity cost, its a niche that can take it out of D rank at least.

Gliscor: B- >>> Unranked (pending QC approval)
Landorus-T: B- >>> Unranked (pending QC approval)
Whimsicott: C >>> Unranked (pending QC approval)

With their viability in the tier being fairly questionable, it was decided that until they are deemed viable for an analysis they are to be removed from the list.

Proposed Changes (aka needs more discussion first):

Landorus-I: Unranked >>> Ranked - Is it viable?
Mega Beedrill: Unranked >>> Ranked - ^

Replays are appreciated when proposing a mons tiering!

 

[tenefix]

I think that Lando-I has a small niche in being able to take on the same general threats as Arceus-Ground while not having to use your Arceus form (making it alright on offensive teams who want to use Ekiller/Ghostceus) so I think somewhere in C rank would be okay for it if it does become ranked, but it really is outclassed by Arceus-Ground in every way and B rank seems high for it.

 

[Fireburn]

Nayrz discussed the changes with me so I'll try to provide a bit more detailed reasoning:

Mega Mawile: Uh so I forgot it could learn Baton Pass lol. But that at least gives it something over Klefki, as it can pivot around Primal Groudon instead of just being completely useless against it. You can pair it with Primal Kyogre for fun results. Genesect can kind of do this too, but M-Maw is a much better direct switch into Dark-types which is something at least.

Landorus-I: I find it is rather strapped for moveslots and not quite strong enough for its Speed tier. You need Earth Power for STAB, HP Ice to not get set up on by Salamence, Knock Off to not be a complete dud against Lati@s and Lugia, and Rock Slide to not get eaten by Ho-Oh, leaving you without a free moveslot for stuff like U-turn, Sludge Wave, Focus Blast, Stealth Rock, etc. It also doesn't quite have enough power to dissuade common HO mons from setting up on it (Arceus tanks EP easy, Sludge Wave won't KO Geoxern after SR if you can even fit it...) and aside from its Ground immunity, Landorus-I has very limited switch-in opportunities. It's not bad per se, and I'll prolly test it more myself, but I'm not really convinced its viable yet.

Mega Beedrill: It's a worse version of Genesect for the most part. It might have a slightly stronger U-turn but the utter lack of bulk and opportunity cost of being a Mega doesn't really make it worth using. The tier isn't really short of Pursuit trappers (Deo-A, Tar, Zor, MMeta, MAero, Aegi) if you really need one.

 

[gepesek]

PomMan mentioned some things i forgot about in the post where I porposue Landorus I, like Lando outspeed the standard 330 speed Latias and knock off Soul Dew. It's right that in this tier Landorus I is a glass cannon, being able to survive 1 or sometimes 2 hits, but the brutal power of and STAB+SheerForce+Life Orb and impecable coverage to susprise the enemy with super effective hit, make's him a very viable choice . Also tenefix said one important thing, Landorus-I is like a mini Arceus-Ground, and since the main reason of Arceus-Ground rising are Primal Groudon and Landorus can demolish him too, this open a slot to use another Arceus form.

I still think

can be B- rank or C+ rank. If Landorus-T was B rank, and IMO isn't a good pokemon in ubers, why can't rise to there normal Landorus?
Hope to still talk about this !!

 

[Aberforth]

It really isn't B worthy, C+ at best. I'm interested in what things that aren't klefki fail to 2hko it as well, it is tanking one hit at best. But it does have some decent options that I do think it should at least be ranked.

 

[Magcargo]

I'm not experienced nor good at Ubers, but is there any reason as to why Genesect is ranked in B+ rank as opposed to B or B- Rank? Seems to me that this mon provides no more utility than Pokemon such as Scizor, Aegislash, and Jirachi, all of whom reside in B-Rank.

 

[Krauersaut]

I'm not experienced nor good at Ubers, but is there any reason as to why Genesect is ranked in B+ rank as opposed to B or B- Rank? Seems to me that this mon provides no more utility than Pokemon such as Scizor, Aegislash, and Jirachi, all of whom reside in B-Rank.

download, speed tier, extremespeed and explosion :)

on another note i think scizor should drop to at least c+ due to ita massive opportunity cost, its shit typing for oras, the existence of pdon and there ebeing mons that simply do its job better

 

[ApplepieFTW]

I find it very strange that we are considering ranking lando-i, but removing gliscor. Yeah gliscor is far from great, but not at all bad. I understand you have doubts regarding it and want to wait for analysis approval, but really if we're dying for stuff to rank shouldn't we keep lant and gliscor on the list? They sure as hell are much, MUCH better than mega-mawile. If you really want them gone so be it, but I'd like to propose gliscor for C+. Maybe this might not be accurate (worse than deserved), but it is more accurate than removing a viable pokemon (gliscor) and a very situational one (lant). I mean cmon, in c+ we have stuff like arceus-poison which isn't even viable but is just ranked because analysis+arceus form. Gliscor isnt great either, but at least it can do something. Lando-t for C-mid which does it even less justice than gliscor (c-mid is basically made up of shitmons that are ranked because they are ranked, lando is more viable than mega-mawile for example). Both being removed just isn't an accurate representation of their viability I think, especially when way worse stuff is also ranked; both pokemon are indeed viable.

 

[Nayrz]

I find it very strange that we are considering ranking lando-i, but removing gliscor. Yeah gliscor is far from great, but not at all bad. I understand you have doubts regarding it and want to wait for analysis approval, but really if we're dying for stuff to rank shouldn't we keep lant and gliscor on the list? They sure as hell are much, MUCH better than mega-mawile. If you really want them gone so be it, but I'd like to propose gliscor for C+. Maybe this might not be accurate, but it is more accurate than removing a viable pokemon (gliscor) and a very situational one (lant). I mean cmon, in c+ we have stuff like arceus-poison which isn't even viable but is just ranked because analysis+arceus form. Gliscor isnt great either, but at least it can do something. Lando-t for C-mid which does it even less justice than gliscor (c-mid is basically made up of shitmons that are ranked because they are ranked, lando is more viable than mega-mawile for example). Both being removed just isn't an accurate representation of their viability I think, especially when way worse stuff is also ranked; both pokemon are indeed viable.

It's the fact that the mons are uber that they must be ranked. Saying something is better than Mawile doesn't mean an awful lot because Mega Mawile is Uber, Landorus-T is not. If they are indeed viable then they will pass QC and end up here anyway - it just removes the question that some may pose when looking at the list and think "wait, why is that still there" (see: Whimsicott, or Tentacruel before it was removed) when its yet to be proved viable. It prevents random mons being placed and moving all around the place while users debate its viability in the first place, otherwise the thread becomes a shitstorm of everyone debating C rank at best shitmons. If you wanna get Gliscor (or any non-ubers mon) on the rankings then pass it by QC (if you ask me Gliscor does nothing significant in this meta and i asked people like Fireburn and dice before removing it, they said the same thing), and then the mon is required to be placed here. Its done a little differently from OU. For what its worth i think Landorus-T is currently passing anyway so its gonna get placed very shortly, and that's when i ask everyone where they think it should be placed (just like how you mentioned it for C which i'll keep in mind).

 

[Toshhy]

I'm just curious, has Rayquaza been considered for ranking changes and, if it has, what was the reasoning for it staying in A-?

Other than that, I don't really know if the Eons should be A+ or S-. There is a large gap between the two ranks and honestly, I cannot put a direct tier to them. They both have their own qualities and flaws that set them apart, but are they similar enough to always be ranked together or do their differences show a clear difference in viability in Ubers as well?

Latias

Latias
+ Solid 80/130 special bulk compounded by Soul Dew
+ 110 SAtk (boosted by Soul Dew) and Spe give it great offensive presence for supporting and defensive roles
+ Fantastic supporter with access to moves like Defog, Healing Wish and Screens
+ Can run bulky attacking sets with good longevity and power
+ Reliable recovery in Recover/Roost
- Defensive sets prone to being easily checked and being set-up/Taunt bait
- Vulnerable to Pursuit
- Has trouble breaking through some Pokémon

Latios

Latios
+ Amazing 130 SAtk bolstered by Soul Dew gives it the most raw special power in the game
+ 110 Speed outpaces several common threats
+ Works as a great offensive supporter with Defog; not only removes hazards, but guarantees slower opponent to stomach a DM
+ Has the option to run Dual Screen Memento to let boosting sweepers set up easily
+ Reliable recovery in Recover/Roost
- Pursuit mauls it
- Poorer bulk than Latias, much frailer overall
- Offensive sets are forced to sack either boosting, recovery or coverage

In the end, both have a lot of pros that earn them a really high ranking, but the question is whether these two Pokémon are really on the same level. Latias obviously has much better supporting capacity, but Latios can demolish nearly anything after setting up CM. Both are extremely vulnerable to Pursuit; Latias's support sets risk being Taunt bait, while Latios is kinda frail and easily disposed of by strong attackers.

Bc banded ray is so powerful. I was actually one of the first or the first ppl to realize this and other ppl i forgot who kept complaining that dd ray or sd ray is better or why locked yourself into a move or some shit like that.

Moreover, i think waterfall > vcreate on band and the analysis will probably change to reflect this when ppl see this fact.

On to thhe banded set, Dragon Ascent is unwallable even lugia dies. Pretty much if you get it in safety you get a kill. Also ppl dont and should use skarmory in uber bc it is bad like no joking. Also feerothorn dies to dragon ascent so vcreate is pretty much useless why not exchange it for a move that ohko the most common mon?

Moreover, as i also mention before darkceus is overrated and now ppl realize this also. I also feel like sciZor suck.

I think jirachi needs a raise for it ability to check a mutitude of threats including xern and the latis and having nice utility moves like sr and healinh wish and wish not to mention paraflinch.

Also Lugia suck. It has so much problem like if your opp has steel type what it going to do? If your stall type is weak to darkceus it is not a good stall team. If your stall type completey relies on status for damage it is not a good stall team. Good stall teams imo still have some offensive powess say one mon on the team capable of handling stuff stall mon cant.

 

[Prinz]

Landorus can put some work in certain match ups so yeah it may deserve a rank. Don't rank Mega Beedrill tho, it just sucks. Walled by PDon and other many things, weak to SR, dies to any priority.. I mean it isn't even that good in OU how it's supposed to be viable in Ubers tier.

 

[orch]

Landorus can put some work in certain match ups so yeah it may deserve a rank. Don't rank Mega Beedrill tho, it just sucks. Walled by PDon and other many things, weak to SR, dies to any priority.. I mean it isn't even that good in OU how it's supposed to be viable in Ubers tier.

Klefki isn't great in ou, yet its one of the best Pokemon in ubers.

Speaking of klefki, I think that its deserving of s- cuz its the 2nd best support Mon. Pdon is obviously the best. Klefki is absurdly splashable and dual status punishes virtually all switch ins and steels hate spikes. It can emergency check nearly all major threats and more. There's no Pokemon that can check xern AND mence and do so much for the team with support options. It can even stall break with HB ( dedicated ct/ niche option only). Keys also synergizes very well with mega mence defensively and offensively. Defensively, the typing gives perfect overlap of reistances and immunties and they serve as good switch ins for their own respective checks. Offensively, Spikes gives mence crucial ohkos and status particularly twave makes mence's match up vs offense far easier. Keys probably could belong in s I guess. Its a bar above latis and ho-oh for sure in terms of viability.

 

[Haruno]

Klefki isn't great in ou, yet its one of the best Pokemon in ubers.

Speaking of klefki, I think that its deserving of s- cuz its the 2nd best support Mon. Pdon is obviously the best. Klefki is absurdly splashable and dual status punishes virtually all switch ins and steels hate spikes. It can emergency check nearly all major threats and more. There's no Pokemon that can check xern AND mence and do so much for the team with support options. It can even stall break with HB ( dedicated ct/ niche option only). Keys also synergizes very well with mega mence defensively and offensively. Defensively, the typing gives perfect overlap of reistances and immunties and they serve as good switch ins for their own respective checks. Offensively, Spikes gives mence crucial ohkos and status particularly twave makes mence's match up vs offense far easier. Keys probably could belong in s I guess. Its a bar above latis and ho-oh for sure in terms of viability.

It's a liability against the entirety of the top 4. That fact alone should keep it out of S- unless we're considering parahax as a efficient means of checking which admittedly is true if you're a luck God but that generally isn't reliable.

Pdon = free switchin
Ekiller = para is almost beneficial since it can't get burned anymore
Xerneas = admittedly this is probably klefkis best matchup assuming non block geoxern AND even if it isn't then klefki still faints bar massive para hax. If it's non scarf/blockless geoxern then klefki is outright set up. though keys spikes on cm so I guess that somewhat cancels out.
Mence = carries refresh and/or EQ more often than not and it's really not that difficult for mence to find turns to refresh, and keys cannot safely switchin due to fear of Eq.

Moving alongside S rank, klefki is still food for ho oh and kyogre which is also a turn off since keys having so many common and prevalent threats stopping it isn't really good for S- rank. A+? Sure since it does provide utility but it's utility just simply isn't great enough for it to be S-

Edit: better than latis? Arguable but they do completely different roles and Latis are still technically more splashable. No way in hell is klefki more viable than ho oh though

 

[orch]

It's a liability against the entirety of the top 4. That fact alone should keep it out of S- unless we're considering parahax as a efficient means of checking which admittedly is true if you're a luck God but that generally isn't reliable.

Pdon = free switchin
Ekiller = para is almost beneficial since it can't get burned anymore
Xerneas = admittedly this is probably klefkis best matchup assuming non block geoxern AND even if it isn't then klefki still faints bar massive para hax. If it's non scarf/blockless geoxern then klefki is outright set up. though keys spikes on cm so I guess that somewhat cancels out.
Mence = carries refresh and/or EQ more often than not and it's really not that difficult for mence to find turns to refresh, and keys cannot safely switchin due to fear of Eq.

Moving alongside S rank, klefki is still food for ho oh and kyogre which is also a turn off since keys having so many common and prevalent threats stopping it isn't really good for S- rank. A+? Sure since it does provide utility but it's utility just simply isn't great enough for it to be S-

Edit: better than latis? Arguable but they do completely different roles and Latis are still technically more splashable. No way in hell is klefki more viable than ho oh though

yeah, klefki isn't the best mon vs 3 of top 4, however you have to recognize:

pdon absolutely hates switching into spikes and toxic. klefki's most spammable move happens to be spikes. pdon WILL get worn down quickly (5 turns at most) if you consider pdon as a "free switchin" lol. Fair enough about ekiller- however toxic+lo+spikes dmg can easily chip dmg ekiller to death with 1-2 sacs. and of course- klefki isn't a check for ekiller but ekiller is by no means a favorable switch in for klefki. block xern is rekt by twave then not play roughing, and you can always use heal block keys if you're really that paranoid about the one of worst geoxern set lol. mence has a dilemma - it cannot kill keys without being paralyzed, and this scenario is p much the same as xern.

of course- S/S- pokemon still struggles vs some threats, however klefki differentiate itself from other A+ by having answer for almost all switch ins and the answers benefits the team. pkyogre struggles vs pdon, yet we dont see it in A+. lati@s struggles vs random pokemon such as tyranitar and keys!, yet it's still S-. and, i think that you're seriously overestimating the amount of "common and prevalent threats" for klefki. only pdon, ho-oh, pogre, groundceus, and i guess, dialga are seriously threatening. that's all for S through A-. and they all still hate spikes/twave/toxic.

if we follow your logic for keeping keys out of S-, then we should examine ho-oh: (this is an imo that ho-oh is really overrated in viability rn) it still requires insane amount of support and sometimes, that's still not even enough. you can see this in steel vs problems spl game where steel effortlessly got sr against magic bounce and defog and annihilated ho-oh team. and top 4 is even worse match up for ho-oh compared to keys. ho-oh is a snackwrap for pdon, ekiller use stone edge now, xern beats ho-oh after sr no matter what and can run rock slide, and mence is one of best ho-oh check. ho-oh and kyogre are also great switch ins for ho-oh and threaten it out. Plus, there's tyranitar, excadrill, random stone edges, thunders, and tons of moves that just 2hkos ho-oh on switch in without sr. ho-oh is a solid A or maybe A+ mon. ive never understood this ho-oh hype. it definitely didn't get better from xy since the meta shift was really unfavorable for ho-oh. keys is clearly more splashable and viable than ho-oh.

 

[Haruno]

yeah, klefki isn't the best mon vs 3 of top 4, however you have to recognize:

pdon absolutely hates switching into spikes and toxic. klefki's most spammable move happens to be spikes. pdon WILL get worn down quickly (5 turns at most) if you consider pdon as a "free switchin" lol. Fair enough about ekiller- however toxic+lo+spikes dmg can easily chip dmg ekiller to death with 1-2 sacs. and of course- klefki isn't a check for ekiller but ekiller is by no means a favorable switch in for klefki. block xern is rekt by twave then not play roughing, and you can always use heal block keys if you're really that paranoid about the one of worst geoxern set lol. mence has a dilemma - it cannot kill keys without being paralyzed, and this scenario is p much the same as xern.

of course- S/S- pokemon still struggles vs some threats, however klefki differentiate itself from other A+ by having answer for almost all switch ins and the answers benefits the team. pkyogre struggles vs pdon, yet we dont see it in A+. lati@s struggles vs random pokemon such as tyranitar and keys!, yet it's still S-. and, i think that you're seriously overestimating the amount of "common and prevalent threats" for klefki. only pdon, ho-oh, pogre, groundceus, and i guess, dialga are seriously threatening. that's all for S through A-. and they all still hate spikes/twave/toxic.

if we follow your logic for keeping keys out of S-, then we should examine ho-oh: (this is an imo that ho-oh is really overrated in viability rn) it still requires insane amount of support and sometimes, that's still not even enough. you can see this in steel vs problems spl game where steel effortlessly got sr against magic bounce and defog and annihilated ho-oh team. and top 4 is even worse match up for ho-oh compared to keys. ho-oh is a snackwrap for pdon, ekiller use stone edge now, xern beats ho-oh after sr no matter what and can run rock slide, and mence is one of best ho-oh check. ho-oh and kyogre are also great switch ins for ho-oh and threaten it out. Plus, there's tyranitar, excadrill, random stone edges, thunders, and tons of moves that just 2hkos ho-oh on switch in without sr. ho-oh is a solid A or maybe A+ mon. ive never understood this ho-oh hype. it definitely didn't get better from xy since the meta shift was really unfavorable for ho-oh. keys is clearly more splashable and viable than ho-oh.

I don't see how toxic'ing a mon and being forced out immediately afterwards is considered "not set up bait" since it gives said mon a free turn

Also lol @ekiller being stopped after 1-2 sacks at that point EKILLER did its job.

Nice straw man about Ho oh though. But to say the least I can say that nothing really sets up on Ho oh for free except maybe King donner and rockceus.

Sorry my response is shit cuz I'm on a phone. I'll post a better/edited post when I get on a computer and can explain what's wrong with each point individually

 

[dice]

klefki and ho-oh both are crux mons on balanced teams due to the role they play in teamslot compression-- klefki can check lati@s, xerneas, darkrai, yveltal, etc. while supporting the team in laying spikes / toxic / twave. ho-oh can check xerneas (although not as well, needs secondary check that's also somewhat solid like klefki! or even ferrothorn) along with almost every cm arceus forme and is one of the hardest pokemon in the tier to check effectively without hazards. ho-oh is far more of a proactive pokemon which provides important compression while klefki is far more reactive. albeit, ho-oh necessitates more 'support' insofar as having a reliable defog user (and possibly magic bounce), it still causes hella pressure on the opposing team which klefki cannot boast. if anything, arceus having to run subobtimal coverage such as stone edge only manifests the dominance ho-oh has over the tier.

while ho-oh's hamartia arises in stealth rock, klefki's is far more difficult to handle: circumventing its nonexistent offensive presence, especially in a metagame containing the ubiquitous primal groudon, is quite difficult. with the introduction of two strikingly practicable magic bouncers in oras, ho-oh's flaws are much more easily mitigated. with its dominating offensive presence and defensive compression coupled, it certainly merits a higher ranking than klefki.

i cannot emphasize how important ho-oh's presence is for balanced teams-- i'm pretty well known for using ho-oh hella often because it is by far the best check to cm arceus in the game while maintaining offensive momentum.

tangentially, my personal opinion is that ho-oh is just a non shitty yveltal-- the xerneas coverage as opposed to the mewtwo coverage (which is hardly a justifiable pokemon) makes it superior in almost every respect; we all know xerneas is much harder to fit a check for than mewtwo which sucks!

although klefki is also fantastic in its own right, it is simply forced out by several pokemon. do keep in mind that magic bounce also relegated its utility somewhat since, even though it can threaten practically every defogger, it's SOL vs sableye and diancie (if it lacks flash cannon).

i believe both pokemon are ranked properly.

 

[shrang]

Can we just merge all the minus ranks (S-/A-/B-/C-) into the plus ranks below them? A+ is supposed to be the grade between A and S, so there isn't much of a point for an S-, for example.