ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

[DoubleOD]

It is less about the inherent qualities Primal Groudon brings to the table but rather how staple its inclusion is upon any archetype, relative to every other Pokémon in the tier. This contrast is so stark that I could argue with greater ease for Primal Groudon to be placed in a rank above "S+" in a rank of its own (under Mega Rayquaza and above "S"). This is because it is just that much more necessary for any ORAS Ubers team, compared to the likes of Mega Salamence and Xerneas, to carry it, to the point where the slim dichotomy between the "S+" and "S" ranks may render the upper echelon of this list misleading to fresh eyes.

Putting Primal Groudon above S+ rank is absolutely ridiculous. It is more than possible to make a team that can't be improved by Primal Groudon (as I already have). I don't really care if Primal Groudon is S+ or at the top of S, as the difference is minimal and the latter would not offend me nearly as much as it would offend some of you. I would have more to say about this but then I would be warned for "mini-modding" or some other arbitrary rule. Needless to ay, SuperSixFighters gave a reasonable explanation as to why he believes Primal Groudon to be S and not S+. I've long held that Xerneas is still the best mon in this meta, but to each his own. Just because someone's opinion is different it doesn't mean their "understanding of the meta" is automatically poor.

(The fact that Ditto is still C- is an utter joke, but I've long given up any hope in fighting that battle)

 

[SuperSixFighters]

Putting Primal Groudon above S+ rank is absolutely ridiculous. It is more than possible to make a team that can't be improved by Primal Groudon (as I already have). I don't really care if Primal Groudon is S+ or at the top of S, as the difference is minimal and the latter would not offend me nearly as much as it would offend some of you. I would have more to say about this but then I would be warned for "mini-modding" or some other arbitrary rule. Needless to ay, SuperSixFighters gave a reasonable explanation as to why he believes Primal Groudon to be S and not S+. I've long held that Xerneas is still the best mon in this meta, but to each his own. Just because someone's opinion is different it doesn't mean their "understanding of the meta" is automatically poor.

(The fact that Ditto is still C- is an utter joke, but I've long given up any hope in fighting that battle)

:). Regarding Ditto, I once thought the same as you (I still think is around C rank tho) but I scrapped it after seeing how much of a dead weight it is vs stall.

 

[squidlick]

This is kinda a shot in the dark, I admit, but I am still anti-P-don (in S+). Even if everything I've said is bad, I really don't think there's this big barrier of Viability between it and xerneas/megamence.

Except that factually, there is.

Things about Primal Groudon that set it leagues above Xerneas and Mega Mence:

-The best user of Stealth Rock in the tier
-Blanket checks a huge amount of the tier and more importantly a consistent Geomancy Xerneas check
-Many ways to sweep, be it Rock Polish, Double Dance or Mixed Rock Polish; not only are all of these viable, but they can also spare the bulk to continue to function as a blanket check to things
-Highly customizable: can go bulky, offensive, or even a mix of the two, which ties into its myriad of viable sets and moves
-Outright amazing stats for what it does

Xerneas and Mence simply can't do all of this. Sure, Xerneas might be a threatening special sweeper, but it's dismantled with smart defensive play and priority(which is rampant). Sure, Mence might be a good sweeper as well, but there are many more ways to stop it compared to PDon(and Mence is a sweeper weak to Stealth Rock, whereas PDon is neutral). Both can run defensive sets, but neither reach the sheer utility that PDon brings; their defensive sets only check physical attackers well, whereas PDon can check a ton of stuff on both spectrums, as mentioned above, due to it's typing.

And if there wasn't this big barrier of viability between them, explain PDon's 70-80% usage rate in tandem with the points mentioned above. People use it because it's actually a metagame defining force, and nothing less than that. That's why your position is objectively wrong, and why it's in it's own tier.

 

[mags]

I 2 love a team that lacks a way 2 beat a stall team like yours DoubleOD !!!!!!! and I 2 love ditto because i love giving myself an excuse for losing because of how shitty it is!!!!!!! AND I 2 LOVE USING FERRO AS MY 1 AND ONLY POGRE CHECK BECAUESE +1 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 183-216 (51.9 - 61.3%)

i can throw pdon on ur team over literally any mon and it would become better,, yea there are teams that can work without them but eh pdon is usually 2 good to not be used.

 

[hyw]

Putting Primal Groudon above S+ rank is absolutely ridiculous. It is more than possible to make a team that can't be improved by Primal Groudon (as I already have). I don't really care if Primal Groudon is S+ or at the top of S, as the difference is minimal and the latter would not offend me nearly as much as it would offend some of you. I would have more to say about this but then I would be warned for "mini-modding" or some other arbitrary rule. Needless to ay, SuperSixFighters gave a reasonable explanation as to why he believes Primal Groudon to be S and not S+. I've long held that Xerneas is still the best mon in this meta, but to each his own. Just because someone's opinion is different it doesn't mean their "understanding of the meta" is automatically poor.

(The fact that Ditto is still C- is an utter joke, but I've long given up any hope in fighting that battle)

You kind of shot yourself in the foot there, bud. The fact that you can at best muster to squeeze just one half-decent team lacking Primal Groudon turns to prove not an ORAS Ubers team's unreliace to its implementation, but rather, its sheer degree of ubiquitousness in the dependency upon its inclusion.

 

[orch]

Let's talk about Ditto!

I think that Ditto should be promoted from bottom of C-. It's one of the most misunderstood pokemon in high lvl meta. It's not necessarily just a gimmicky ct vs ho.

Misconception that Ditto is bad vs Stall:
IDK why ppl say this. In reality, Ditto is one of the best stallbreaker in game. Ditto can easily come into whatever and infinitely rest/heal up your team with no PP drain. It'll take very long but you will win 99% games vs stall as Ditto if you patiently PP stalls everything.

The biggest issue for Ditto is balance. However, there has been a notable trend of using powerful wallbreakers in balance teams. So, you can easily exploit that and reverse-wall break. This isn't always true tho, and there's some absolutely awful match up for Ditto. But, I think that the current ORAS meta is the best meta possible for Ditto to succeed in.

 

[Q10jj34eeDnK]

Sorry everyone, I kinda suck at typing :(. Anyway, here's my backup on P-don:

• P-don to drop to S. I really don't think P-don is as good as people make out. Yes, it's versatile. But how many of its sets should be used? Rocks is good, yes, but not good enough to hold a whole rank above the rest of the meta. Things like Deoxys can set up rocks a lot more consistently, and since support P-don can only really run stabs, it falls prey to practically every levitating dragon/defogger or is forced to drop one for the more inconsistent stone edge. Also, sets like double dance and rock polish face this problem, alongside facing a lot of competition from half of the tier as a setup sweeper-doesnt DD do this better. I've probably judged it a little harsh here, and it is definitely a meta defining Mon, but is it really worth its own tier? Is it really a must on all teams? I vote no. Stall sets lack items and recovery, offensive lack coverage, almost every team runs a check to it anyway and so on. Good? Yes. Meta defining? Probably? Essential? No.

• Expanding on the above:

• P-don has good Def and Atk, yes. It has very good stats indeed. But it Arceus in S+ rank for its stats? No. These stats are further counteracted by the fact P-don has a decent at best movepool and must run a red orb too, which means it is crippled by Pseudo item loss from the start. Imagine how much potential it loses being item-less. In fact, I'd say that it one of its biggest holdbacks. I can't see much point in a stall Mon being "the greatest" without recovery, even from leftovers. If versatility means it can run a bunch of mediocre sets, doesn't that mean I can run band, sash or LO Terrakion? Choiced, item-less or Dark Plate Hoopa? Do people call these viable? No. So a stall Mon with 90 SPD and 100 HP is stronger than things like lugia who can, God forbid, recover actual HP? Yes, it has good def-but practically all mixed/special mons can wear it down and eventually defeat it. It this worth the title of Stall God? Things like Arceus and Sableye should have that name. Something else is P-dons middling movepool-what other Mon is forced to run mixed because it has no good physical fire-type stab? Even then, its stabs can't even hit many mons-looking at you, practically every defogger which switches in on P-don and gets a "free Defog"-especially Flygon, who also resists it's only other real coverage option, stone edge (inconsistent in its own right). Looking at you, Mega-Mence, who can get a free DD off if P-don doesn't run roar. And if it does? Welcome in loads more stuff thunder wave could stop. In a naturally fast tier, is 90 speed really that good-especially on a lead. Practically every taunter outspeeds-leaving P-don with its measly offensive moves, ready for a Giratina or the like to switch in and Defog. New threats like Whimsicott don't spell good, either as encore plus stun spore is an absolute pain to it. The things P-don checks have actually gone down in usage loads-so half of what it beats actually is almost irrelevant. On the other hand, every team and their mothers get solid G-don checks, which also happen to be strong mons in their own rights anyway. Finally, P-don has bad lead matchup. Darkrai? Sleep fodder. Deoxys? Taunt plus many hazards. Setup Sweepers? Pray you packed roar. Dozens of hazard setters exist-most of them getting refined sets to beat this Mon. It may once have been anti-meta, but the meta now seems to check it in every single way-Kyogre, Rayquaza and even Golduck can remove weather and defeat with water attacks. Itself, normal G-don (can't be used-some smal opportunity cost here), Grounceus and more have strong ground moves, flying dragons resist the best moves it can carry (and it can't really carry more than two attacks as it already needs the other slots to do its purpose and even then struggles) and the list goes on. Half of the stuff it is supposed to check-like Kyogre-have ways to deal with it anyway.

• P-don isn't bad. It's great. But it isn't a tier above everything else. So, really, why keep it there? Drop it to S today!

It's hard for me to say much about Primal Groudon without sounding like a broken record, so I'll just say this:

Do you know how many Pokemon would be higher on these viability rankings if Primal Groudon didn't exist?

 

[Steve Angello]

Lately I focused on OU, but in my heart I never quit Ubers. Thats why I want to discuss about adding a new Pokemon in this ranking. The pokemon I want to talk about is Froslass. People are spamming Cloyster and Excadrill lately and I was searching for an Anti-Lead. Orch, I guess Problems and me came to the conclusion that Froslass should work really well in the currant Metagame or in the near future.

Why does it work?
Arceus-Support doesn't run Max Speed anymore which is the dumbest thing I have ever seen, not being max speed is really stupid. The possibility to Taunt Cloyster, Excadrill and other stuff is really great as well. The Icy Wind + Shadow Ball combo works well vs Deoxys Leads and the last move should be Spikes. Often I can lay down around 2-3 Hazards because Froslass is really fast. It hits 350 speed. I can see, if people run more Froslass HO teams, the teams will be faster again. Another option over Shadow Ball could be Destiny Bond, which allows the user to trade 1 v 1 mon, which could be really great against Groudon leads. Froslass definitly deserves a spot in the rankings. I would probably say C+ / B-
Lets discuss :)

 

[zf]

Lately I focused on OU, but in my heart I never quit Ubers. Thats why I want to discuss about adding a new Pokemon in this ranking. The pokemon I want to talk about is Froslass. People are spamming Cloyster and Excadrill lately and I was searching for an Anti-Lead. Orch, I guess Problems and me came to the conclusion that Froslass should work really well in the currant Metagame or in the near future.

Why does it work?
Arceus-Support doesn't run Max Speed anymore which is the dumbest thing I have ever seen, not being max speed is really stupid. The possibility to Taunt Cloyster, Excadrill and other stuff is really great as well. The Icy Wind + Shadow Ball combo works well vs Deoxys Leads and the last move should be Spikes. Often I can lay down around 2-3 Hazards because Froslass is really fast. It hits 350 speed. I can see, if people run more Froslass HO teams, the teams will be faster again. Another option over Shadow Ball could be Destiny Bond, which allows the user to trade 1 v 1 mon, which could be really great against Groudon leads. Froslass definitly deserves a spot in the rankings. I would probably say C+ / B-
Lets discuss :)

Froslass should not be ranked.

Froslass's biggest problem in BW, Darkrai, is still a dominating presence in the ORAS metagame and is the sole reason why it isn't viable. To be an effective anti-lead against Deoxys-S, Froslass must lead against it; otherwise, Deo-S will get 2 layers of hazards and its job will be done. However, Darkrai, who will always be paired with Deo-S, can lead instead, instantly gaining momentum for your opponent. Even if you lead with something that threatens Darkrai, such as Mewtwo, this is not a winning situation for the Froslass user; Deo-S switches in and sets SR before dying and your opponent regains offensive momentum by bringing in one of the other threats on their team. No matter how you look at it, facing Deo-S offense will always be a lose-lose situation for the Froslass user and at best, a 50/50, depending on your choice of Darkrai anti-lead. This isn't even addressing the problems it has against Magic Bouncers, who stop it completely. Froslass is completely outclassed by Sash Deo-A in this role (who is pretty shit at it anyway). I'll explain why other slow anti-leads are viable below.

While it is true that all Deo-S anti-leads that are slower than Darkrai have this problem, each one that is ranked has a trait which allows them to overcome it. Exca and Cloyster both have Rapid Spin, which allows their team to safely lead a Darkrai anti-lead vs Deo-S+Darkrai and opens up CB Ho-Oh a viable partner to absorb sleep. These mons also pressure bouncers well, with Mold Breaker and offensive pressure, respectively. Greninja (who is the worst of the bunch and most comparable to Froslass) at least can 2HKO/OHKO both Magic Bouncers and has 2 viable hazards to choose from, while still possessing the same fast Taunt and pseudo-spinblocking typing. Froslass literally has nothing going for it.

 

[Fireburn]

Froslass needs an analysis before it can be ranked bro

I have some misgivings about it though, namely the matchup vs things like Magic Bouncers (not enough offense to break em), Darkrai (lol), lead Excadrill (Rock Tomb), Tyranitar (limited to one hazard unlike all the other decent suicide spikers), max HP Deoxys-S (this is the new standard, Icy Wind + SBall does not KO), and Greninja (faster Taunt). Doesn't seem overly worthwhile to run over something like Greninja or another suicide spiker.

 

[Steve Angello]

Well your argument "Darkrai is very good vs it" doesn't fit here in my opinion. Cloyster and Excadrill both lose to it as well and your team does not only consist of Froslass. The thing is Cloyster and Excadrill get shut down by Froslass and you can always pair Froslass with like Scarf Xerneas. I obviously get your point and I think your point is kind off true but the Darkrai argument is wrong, because all leads have trouble with it.

oh true they need an analysis before haha sorry :p

 

[zf]

Well your argument "Darkrai is very good vs it" doesn't fit here in my opinion. Cloyster and Excadrill both lose to it as well and your team does not only consist of Froslass. The thing is Cloyster and Excadrill get shut down by Froslass and you can always pair Froslass with like Scarf Xerneas. I obviously get your point and I think your point is kind off true but the Darkrai argument is wrong, because all leads have trouble with it.

oh true they need an analysis before haha sorry :p

This exact point was answered in my previous post, shown below:

...While it is true that all Deo-S anti-leads that are slower than Darkrai have this problem, each one that is ranked has a trait which allows them to overcome it. Exca and Cloyster both have Rapid Spin, which allows their team to safely lead a Darkrai anti-lead vs Deo-S+Darkrai and opens up CB Ho-Oh a viable partner to absorb sleep. These mons also pressure bouncers well, with Mold Breaker and offensive pressure, respectively. Greninja (who is the worst of the bunch and most comparable to Froslass) at least can 2HKO/OHKO both Magic Bouncers and has 2 viable hazards to choose from, while still possessing the same fast Taunt and pseudo-spinblocking typing. Froslass literally has nothing going for it.

Spinner leads open up potential teammates (Ho-Oh) to take the sleep and can switch in on the turn Deo-S sets SR and spin it away, which makes it safe to actually lead something like Mewtwo vs a potential Darkrai lead. Froslass cannot do this because 1) it doesn't provide spin support and likes to stack hazards, meaning Ho-Oh is NOT a viable teammate and 2) cannot switch-in on Deo-S and still have the desired effect of at least trading evenly in the hazard/momentum game. Pairing Froslass with Scarf Xern is just asking to be destroyed by Ho-Oh balance, as you run 2 mons that let Ho-Oh in for free (and 1, Froslass, actually does nothing since it can't break Magic Bouncers). You're also ignoring the fact Froslass doesn't even reliably KO Deo-S with Icy Wind+Shadow Ball, as shown here:

calcs

252 SpA Froslass Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-S: 72-85 (23.6 - 27.9%) -- 87.4% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Froslass Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-S: 206-246 (67.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[hyw]

Makes for a trollish Destiny Bond-spam team but yeah that's about it topkek

 

[Maxgepic]

Hello all! My name's Max and I'm not new to this thread but I am new to the competitive scene and I have a question. I found out about this thread by going to the xy ubers option screen and clicking the ORAS Ubers viability rankings button which is how I came here but later I looked up ORAS ubers on google and found a completely different thread with things like an S- rank and the list in alphabetical order so what I wanna know is are there 2 diffrent threads or is one fake and one real? if its the latter then which one is real?

 

[baconbagon]

Hello all! My name's Max and I'm not new to this thread but I am new to the competitive scene and I have a question. I found out about this thread by going to the xy ubers option screen and clicking the ORAS Ubers viability rankings button which is how I came here but later I looked up ORAS ubers on google and found a completely different thread with things like an S- rank and the list in alphabetical order so what I wanna know is are there 2 diffrent threads or is one fake and one real? if its the latter then which one is real?

One thread is newer than the other. The one which you saw, with S-, was posted on Dec 3, 2014 and it now locked so that people cannot reply. This thread was created on the same day that the old one was locked.

 

[Maxgepic]

ok thanks for letting me know. I was just curious because this thread looks really fucked up interesting, well at least compared to the old thread.

EDIT: why was the old thread locked away? what did FIREBURN mean when he said OP was dead?

 

[Aberforth]

The person running the thead (updating it and moving mons around and guiding discussion) quit mons and smogon.

 

[Maxgepic]

Are you talking about PISTOLERO? I remember that guy from the old thread. pretty dope dude why did he quit though? was seeing PDon and MMence every game just that boring?

 

[Aberforth]

Personal stuff too, not my place to say.

 

[Maxgepic]

Ok that's fine I guess but really I just what to know what's going on with the current rankings? like what is Arceus-Water doing in A+ in a Primal Groudon meta and HOW is Arceus-Dragon considered more viable then Mewtwo?

 

[Jibaku]

Just because Primal Groudon is super common doesn't mean Water is a worthless type. Arceus-Water is a defesive behemoth that checks a number of physical attackers such as Ho-Oh, Mega Salamence, and Arceus-Ground to some extent. It also checks Swords Danceless Primal Groudon to an extent, stalling it out with Recover and Toxic. It can also act as a buffer against Primal Kyogre's Water STAB should it find a way into your Primal Groudon.

Arceus-Dragon is like Waterceus except it compresses the role of Water Judgment + Ice Beam into a convenient Dragon Judgment, opening up room for Defog. It does have some annoying weaknesses as a tradeoff, and doesn't synergize very well with other dragons.

 

[Maxgepic]

I'm aware that Arceus-Water can toxic Pdon but SD/Twave+SD still beats it and steel types like Aegislash and Ferrothorn still beat it. Also it has a small case of 4MSS because it wants ice beam not to get wrecked by refresh Mence but at the same time it NEEDS Judgment not to get wrecked by steels (have fun chiping away at them with ice beam) either way your going to die to smoething pretty nasty, I say it's A- at best. oh! did I forget to mention this thing only fits on stall?

Honestly can we just make the current viability rankings look like the old thread please? if you still think I'm insane then do yourself a favour and quickly remind yourself that Arceus-Dark's primary niche as a stall breaker is better then ever in a metagame where Primal Groudon is a fantastic offensive partner to it or that Genesect is a great momentoum grabber and an amazing check to the Latis.

EDIT: OH! forgot to mention that Arceus-Water can no longer check POrgre because both common Kyogre sets (CM+3 attacks,physical def resttalk) beat it.

 

[Aberforth]

Genesect is really poor cause its doing nothing to a whole heap of viable mons and just forces you to tank hits while not really offering much defensively for the metagame its in. Also, Arceus-Dark hasn't broken stall in months with stall running things like Snatch Blissey, Clefable and even stuff like TTar which can deal with it.

Also Arceus-Water is very usable on Balance as a defogger who actually beats most Primal Groudon sets, and practically guarantees that Rocks will not remain on the field, beating most Rock setters. Ferrothorn is uncommon, as is Aegislash, and given that it beats two of the most threatening breakers (Pdon and Ho-oh) its more than worth not being able to touch a rare steel type or two.

 

[squidlick]

I haven't seen a single Genesect on anything but low ladder.

I'm not high on the ladder myself, mind you(though I did get the pleasure of battling Hack by complete luck a few days ago), but Genesect doesn't do much in a meta game full of Bug/Steel resists.

 

[Maxgepic]

fuck! so my old post got removed...
either way in case you got the chance to quickly read that post before scraping it I think you'll be happy to know that I'm going to leave this thread and wait for any updates so I can laugh my ass off because of how fucked up it will look see how you get on without any PROPER understanding of the current metagame, I don't give 2 shits what you do to the current thread but to me and me alone my place lies in the old thread so BYE!