ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread M3 (READ POST #823)

[atomicllamas]

Just a question: what's the rationale between Suicune being S and Florges not?

Not sure I'd trade walling the majority of the tier + Aromatherapy + higher SpA and SpD + More reliable recovery for Roar and Pressure. I'll make the case with some calcs later, right now I have some other shit I have to do.

I mean if you are gonna say that Florges walls the majority of the tier, (which I don't think is necessarily true), then Suicune is also walling the majority of the tier, given that, as Koko said its way bulkier, and its typing is pretty equally defensively viable. Also Scald has a shit ton of utility, so while Moonblast is technically hitting harder, I'd much rather switch into that than switch into a potential Scald burns, which makes Florges a lot more prone to giving free turns. This is especially true for Roar Suicune, which actually punishes set up if backed with any hazard support. That isn't to say Suicune is objectively better than Florges, the question you asked, is fundamentally flawed in that it assumes that Florges not being S rank and Suicune being S rank is somehow related, when they aren't even that similar in function aside from the fact that they both have Calm Mind and sometimes use it. The reality is Suicune is S rank and Florges is not, because Suicune more closely fits in with the description of S rank (less free turns given is very important in this sense). If you think Florges should be S rank, then you should argue that without posting useless comparisons to Suicune, a Pokemon which it faces no real competition with and is hardly comparable in terms of role in the tier.

My post got sniped by like 3 shitpost one liners, but that's the kinda response I'd expect to a post that is nothing more than a nonsensical comparison I guess \o/

 

[empire370]

Not sure I'd trade walling the majority of the tier + Aromatherapy + higher SpA and SpD + More reliable recovery for Roar and Pressure. I'll make the case with some calcs later, right now I have some other shit I have to do.

They don't even play the same role and suicune has much more things than florgres than roar and spa it had way better phys def for one and just like it's mentioned in previous post suicune is just as hard to take down as florgres it's completely unessary to say one mon is better than the other imo

 

[d2m]

I never said they played the same role, just that they were both defensive Pokemon in general. They wall different things, they have different support abilities, but when comparing pure power level (i.e. "How good at its job is this compared to one another?" Florges just appears to be better at its job of being a special tank and dragon/dark check than Suicune does of checking bulky attackers and fire types.

But I'll humor you guys, using the numbers from the standard Calm Mind set (252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA Bold).
Setup sweepers from A rank and above:
Feraligatr -
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Feraligatr: 127-150 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 220+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 278-329 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So, Moonblast always 2HKOs with LO recoil and he can't OHKO with a +1 Waterfall. Meaning if he tries to set up on Florges, he will get 1 attack off maximum, and you can easily swap out to whatever wall you'd normally use to take a big water hit.

Reuniclus - Sets up on Florges, but takes ~30% on the switch in to Moonblast.

Salamence -
Always OHKOs with SR, sometimes OHKOs without it. Iron Tail always fails to OHKO.

Suicune - Sets up on Florges unless Florges has already boosted once with CM, then she wins.

Mega Aerodactyl -
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 118-141 (39.2 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 248+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 253-298 (70.2 - 82.7%)

If he goes for Hone Claws or switches into Stealth Rock, he dies. Stone Edge fails to OHKO even after the boost.

Heracross -
OHKO'd with Stealth Rock, fails to OHKO with any move. Never gets a chance to SD.

Toxicroak -
He can't switch into a Moonblast twice and the NP set fails to even 2HKO through leftovers with Sludge Bomb. Gunk Shot does OHKO on the physical set, though accuracy still is the issue. Either way, he can never set up on her.

Curselax - Sets up on Florges.

Venomoth - Can switch in and set up on a Moon Blast, cannot set up on a Calm Mind, as +1 Moonblast 2HKOs after SR and Veno cannot OHKO with Sludge Bomb.

3/9 can set up on Florges, and all of those have plenty of other checks in the tier. Now let's list all the Pokemon on A rank or higher that are checked or walled by Florges:

Hydreigon - OHKO'd by Moonblast, fails to OHKO with Flash Cannon even with Specs.

Krookodile - Anything short of a CB Earthquake fails to 2HKO. Moonblast always OHKOs w/ SR and 50% of the time otherwise.

Mega Blastoise - Nothing he can muster does more than ~30%, Florges can set up CM easily.

Empoleon - Scald barely does an average of ~20% and even Flash Cannon fails to 2HKO without significant SpA investment and/or LO. Florges sets up on him.

Mandibuzz - Taunt prevents setup, but she's 2HKO'd 77% of the time through Leftovers by unboosted Moonblast and fails to do more than 10% with Knock Off or Foul Play.

Mienshao - Moonblast always OHKOs, Poison Jab 2HKOs. She counters choiced versions, but LO that predicts the switch will get her.

Porygon2 - Florges sets up on him, even through Toxic thanks to Aromatherapy.

Rotom-c - Even Specs Leaf Storm fails to 2HKO, she sets up on him.

Sharpedo - OHKO'd by Moonblast, fails to 2HKO with any move barring 2 max damage Waterfalls after SR.

Shaymin - Barring a Seed Flare SpD drop, Florges walls the set with Synthesis out PPstalling Seed Flare.

Slowking - Only the CM version with Psyshock ever has a chance of getting through Florges. Every other set is set up on.

Whimsicott - 2HKO'd by Moonblast and does virtually nothing with U-turn. Can Encore Calm Mind, but that's it.

Cresselia - Only CM/Psyshock set has a chance, and even that can be beaten by a CM war followed by a SpA drop from Moonblast.

Forretress - Gyro Ball 4HKOs, she's setup bait. Even Explosion only does ~45% max.

Froslass - She gets up her spikes but Florges 2HKOs.

Infernape - Nothing he can do 2HKOs even through rocks, and he's always 2HKO'd by Moonblast.

Kyurem - Short of specs Ice Beam usually 2HKOing into SR, she can set up on any other move and still live Ice Beam with Synthesis.

Sceptile - Moonblast OHKOs if he Mega Evolves, 2HKOs if he doesn't and he fails to 2HKO with anything.

Slurpluff - Does nothing to Florges without Belly Drum, Florges OHKOs after a Belly Drum.

Tangrowth - Setup bait for Florges unless he's some full Atk set with Power Whip.


Conclusion: Florges is a safe switch in to a vast portion of the metagame. Arguably, more than any other Pokemon. In addition, it negates status with Aromatherapy, potentially sets up to sweep with Calm Mind, and even dents the Pokemon that check it for at least 20% on the switch in. It's pretty much the ubiquitous defensive Pokemon that's a staple of balance and stall teams. This thing is a massive bitch, and it definitely deserves a slot among the best of the best. Florges A+ to S.

 

[LilOu]

But I'll humor you guys, using the numbers from the standard Calm Mind set (252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA Bold).

Standard CM Florges runs 252 HP / 252 Def, but i think you just made a typo, since your calcs show max def

Feraligatr -
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Feraligatr: 127-150 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 220+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 278-329 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So, Moonblast always 2HKOs with LO recoil and he can't OHKO with a +1 Waterfall. Meaning if he tries to set up on Florges, he will get 1 attack off maximum, and you can easily swap out to whatever wall you'd normally use to take a big water hit.

Gatr doesn't get LO recoil because of Sheer Force, and most Gatrs are SD nowadays, so Florges can't handle it.

Reuniclus - Sets up on Florges, but takes ~30% on the switch in to Moonblast.

Are you on Florges' side or not?

Salamence -
Always OHKOs with SR, sometimes OHKOs without it. Iron Tail always fails to OHKO.

Florges never KOes without rocks. Mence gets DD and OHKOes with Iron Tail, so you can't really come in with Florges vs. a DD mence, you need to be on the same turn it sets up if you want to win considering both are at 100%.

Suicune - Sets up on Florges unless Florges has already boosted once with CM, then she wins.

Suicune can come at +1 Florges and just start setting up too and will win the 1v1 thanks to Pressure (not considering crits). Also, if it's CM Roar, then it just wins the battle.

Mega Aerodactyl -
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 118-141 (39.2 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 248+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 253-298 (70.2 - 82.7%)

Actually, Hone Claws Roost Edgequake Mega Aero uses Florges as setup fodder.

Mega Blastoise - Nothing he can muster does more than ~30%, Florges can set up CM easily.

Hydro Pump 2HKOes after rocks and a lil bit of prior damage (which is not hard to achieve, as Florges likes to pivot a lot)

Empoleon - Scald barely does an average of ~20% and even Flash Cannon fails to 2HKO without significant SpA investment and/or LO. Florges sets up on him.

Standard Sdefensive Empoleon runs Roar.

Whimsicott - 2HKO'd by Moonblast and does virtually nothing with U-turn. Can Encore Calm Mind, but that's it.

Which is the entire point of using Encore on Whims, to prevent these setup sweepers to sweep.

Slurpluff - Does nothing to Florges without Belly Drum, Florges OHKOs after a Belly Drum.

Have you ever been in this scenario? Slurpuff does use Florges as setup fodder. Belly Drum+Sitrus Berry takes on Moonblast..

 

[Aquadext]

I never said they played the same role, just that they were both defensive Pokemon in general. They wall different things, they have different support abilities, but when comparing pure power level (i.e. "How good at its job is this compared to one another?" Florges just appears to be better at its job of being a special tank and dragon/dark check than Suicune does of checking bulky attackers and fire types.

I don't agree with how you define that "pure power level", but even then, Suicune does much better its job of checking physical attackers than Florges checking special attackers, thanks to a higher bulk.
Suicune eats choice-powered attacks, Florges doesn't.

 

[Wish9]

Conclusion: Florges is a safe switch in to a vast portion of the metagame. Arguably, more than any other Pokemon. In addition, it negates status with Aromatherapy, potentially sets up to sweep with Calm Mind, and even dents the Pokemon that check it for at least 20% on the switch in. It's pretty much the ubiquitous defensive Pokemon that's a staple of balance and stall teams. This thing is a massive bitch, and it definitely deserves a slot among the best of the best. Florges A+ to S.

Main problem that Florges has is while it technically can sweep, its lack of immediate offensive prowess and coverage moves limit it significantly and unlike other CM users such as Suicune and Reuniclus, it does not have anything for the majority of its checks which are mostly Steel types. As for your nomination of Florges being S Rank, I disagree. While Florges is a great overall UU Pokémon and is pretty much a staple on balanced and bulky offensive teams, its not really metagame defining. A+ is fine.

 

[Jaguar360]

I'm probably crazy for this, but I have 3 Pokemon that I've been wanting to nominate from unranked to C for a month that I just haven't had time to get to before. I used two of them in my Sept. Dark Horse, but that's not the only experience I have that make me feel that should be ranked. As a disclaimer, these are not just kneejerk reactions from me using a Pokemon and doing well with them; I gave some time after initially using them to see if they were as effective as the were before and they deliver. While we keep spending time trying to clear C rank, we really shouldn't be keeping viable mons from appearing on the rankings.

First up:
Emboar to C - Yes, I'm defending the pig again. It didn't deserve to be unranked in the first place, as its niche as a wallbreaker is very much defined and it does its job well. The main Pokemon people jump to compare this Pokemon to are other Fire type wallbreakers like Darmanitan, Infernape and Entei along with other regular wallbreakers like Pangoro and Tyrantrum. Emboar has a few things that separate it from these mons.

For one thing, the damage output. It hits so hard with Flare Blitz along with Superpower and Head Smash, that it oftentimes only has to pick between one or two moves to get a positive result. In my experience, Emboar tends to get about two kills per battle on average, which is definitely pretty good. This replay is a good example. Once Doublade gets knocked out, the entire team has no switchins to Head Smash. Even with LO knocked off in this replay, I barely have to predict for the Head Smash and Sucker Punch more or less guarantees a kill on Mega Beedrill. I'm not going to lie and say that Emboar gets a kill every game like here, for instance, but something always gets crippled if it is sent out. LO Darmanitan and Adamant LO Tyrantrum (which usually runs Jolly) outdamage LO Emboar's Flare Blitz with their respective immensely powerful STABs, but Darm lacks secondary STAB (or moves that are powerful enough to essentially serve as STAB like Emboar's Reckless Head Smash), is walled by plenty of bulky waters, lacks priority and has less defensive syngergy, while Tyrantrum is
vulnerable to burn, lacks priority and loses to Mega Aggron and bulky Water Grounds without a Choice Band, whereas Emboar can pretty much anything it wants on a single set, whether carrying Choice Band or Life Orb (FB + Grass Knot + Head Smash pretty much breaks through anything it needs, though Wild Charge makes breaking past Mola way easier and reliable).

Sucker Punch is another thing that's surprisingly big for it. Being able to outspeed and OHKO things like Mega Beedrill and Chandelure after SR or Spikes damage is a really good and underrated asset for a wallbreaker to have. Entei can accomplish similar feats with Extreme Speed, but, as a wallbreaker, it doesn't really do what Emboar does. Entei has trouble breaking through bulky Waters and Rock types even with burns no matter what it does while Emboar can break through whatever it wants and hits harder.

Emboar's recoil is obviously its biggest detriment, but when it's getting in about 3 hits per battle, that's actually really good since those hits are really impactful. If a reckless player like me gets good mileage from it each battle, the recoil can't harm it that much. Plus, Muscle Band and Expert Belt are great alternatives to Life Orb. Emboar's speed is also lower than the other wallbreakers I mentioned aside from Pangoro, but Sucker Punch + the sheer force of its attacks make that less of an issue than it is on paper. Rank this mon. It is a dangerous wallbreaker that needs to be noted by UU players.

Fun replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-276276577 - Who needs prediction anyway lol

There are more replays of Emboar in the next nomination which is:

Sneasel to C - This was the other DH mon and, unlike with Emboar, I had never used it before so I was quite surprised by its quality. It really feels like Sneasel is a standard UU Pokemon when I use it. The immediate comparison a physical Ice type with Ice Shard gets is to Mamoswine of course, so what makes Sneasel special?

The speed tier is really, really huge. Sneasel can easily go 1v1 with Pokemon like Hydreigon, Haxorus, Shaymin, Roserade and Nidoking and OHKO them with Icicle Crash before they move in scenarios where Mamo is stuck in an awkward position where Ice Shard won't kill and it can potenitally get OHKOed before it attacks. STAB Knock Off isn't bad either. Sneasel also has a niche as a naturally fast Pursuit user if the team doesn't need extra coverage for Steels with Sneasel's Low Kick.

Sneasel does have some crippling flaws like lack of power against defensive teams without Swords Dance (which it is too frail to run) and frailty, but the utility of Knock Off + its performance against Offense, as well as its ability to switch into resisted attacks on the special side well enough make these flaws not bad enough to make it unviable. A Dark type that can't beat Cresselia and Reuniclus very well isn't great though. Despite this, Sneasel seems to fit pretty conformtably in C rank.

Replays (feat. Emboar):

Hide

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-276035001 - Really good Sneasel showcase. Early on, it forces switches thanks to its speed an knocks off items, crippling the switchins, allowing Sneasel to clean effectively at the end
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-269461672 - Sneasel puts in a ton of work, and beats a Toxicroak where Mamo wouldn't have been able to
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-274080993 - Not a great showcase for Sneasel tbh, but Emboar does really well in this
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-276037110 - Emboar breaks Qwilfish over a couple of turns LO less, Sneasel almost cleans by itself, but fails by 4% and causes Seismitoad to get outstalled in the end :(

My postings on the Dark Horse also contain more commentary on Sneasel and Emboar as well as more replays.

Finally, to a mon I posted about in the Creative/Underrated sets thread:

Sceptile to C - While its Mega can eclipse it in most cases, the competition for the Mega slot is stiffer than ever in UU. That begs the question of why to use Sceptile over Roserade or Shaymin as offensive Grass types. Like with Sneasel, the speed is a crucial factor, as outspeeding the likes of Azelf, Heliolisk, Entei, Mega Houndoom, Whimsicott and the like is really important and makes it so that it's not forced out as much. With its Life Orb set, it can also lure Fairies that wall the traditional Mega Scept set with Iron Tail and use its good mixed coverage to beat various other Pokemon in the tier. A SubSD set with Unburden + Sitrus Berry or Ovegrow + Salac Berry functions similarly to Hawlucha and can sweep pretty efficiently, having a niche one of the few physical setup sweepers that can beat Quagsire and is good at using bulky Waters as setup fodder in general.

I lack replays atm since they were down at the time I posted these sets, but here is the link to the post, so that you can see the sets and descriptions. I just wanted to post this since it's been on my mind for a while.

That's all. Sorry for the long post.

 

[LRXC]

I'm probably crazy for this, but I have 3 Pokemon that I've been wanting to nominate from unranked to C for a month that I just haven't had time to get to before. I used two of them in my Sept. Dark Horse, but that's not the only experience I have that make me feel that should be ranked. As a disclaimer, these are not just kneejerk reactions from me using a Pokemon and doing well with them; I gave some time after initially using them to see if they were as effective as the were before and they deliver. While we keep spending time trying to clear C rank, we really shouldn't be keeping viable mons from appearing on the rankings.

First up:
Emboar to C - Yes, I'm defending the pig again. It didn't deserve to be unranked in the first place, as its niche as a wallbreaker is very much defined and it does its job well. The main Pokemon people jump to compare this Pokemon to are other Fire type wallbreakers like Darmanitan, Infernape and Entei along with other regular wallbreakers like Pangoro and Tyrantrum. Emboar has a few things that separate it from these mons.

For one thing, the damage output. It hits so hard with Flare Blitz along with Superpower and Head Smash, that it oftentimes only has to pick between one or two moves to get a positive result. In my experience, Emboar tends to get about two kills per battle on average, which is definitely pretty good. This replay is a good example. Once Doublade gets knocked out, the entire team has no switchins to Head Smash. Even with LO knocked off in this replay, I barely have to predict for the Head Smash and Sucker Punch more or less guarantees a kill on Mega Beedrill. I'm not going to lie and say that Emboar gets a kill every game like here, for instance, but something always gets crippled if it is sent out. LO Darmanitan and Adamant LO Tyrantrum (which usually runs Jolly) outdamage LO Emboar's Flare Blitz with their respective immensely powerful STABs, but Darm lacks secondary STAB (or moves that are powerful enough to essentially serve as STAB like Emboar's Reckless Head Smash), is walled by plenty of bulky waters, lacks priority and has less defensive syngergy, while Tyrantrum is
vulnerable to burn, lacks priority and loses to Mega Aggron and bulky Water Grounds without a Choice Band, whereas Emboar can pretty much anything it wants on a single set, whether carrying Choice Band or Life Orb (FB + Grass Knot + Head Smash pretty much breaks through anything it needs, though Wild Charge makes breaking past Mola way easier and reliable).

Sucker Punch is another thing that's surprisingly big for it. Being able to outspeed and OHKO things like Mega Beedrill and Chandelure after SR or Spikes damage is a really good and underrated asset for a wallbreaker to have. Entei can accomplish similar feats with Extreme Speed, but, as a wallbreaker, it doesn't really do what Emboar does. Entei has trouble breaking through bulky Waters and Rock types even with burns no matter what it does while Emboar can break through whatever it wants and hits harder.

Emboar's recoil is obviously its biggest detriment, but when it's getting in about 3 hits per battle, that's actually really good since those hits are really impactful. If a reckless player like me gets good mileage from it each battle, the recoil can't harm it that much. Plus, Muscle Band and Expert Belt are great alternatives to Life Orb. Emboar's speed is also lower than the other wallbreakers I mentioned aside from Pangoro, but Sucker Punch + the sheer force of its attacks make that less of an issue than it is on paper. Rank this mon. It is a dangerous wallbreaker that needs to be noted by UU players.

Fun replay: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-276276577 - Who needs prediction anyway lol

There are more replays of Emboar in the next nomination which is:

Sneasel to C - This was the other DH mon and, unlike with Emboar, I had never used it before so I was quite surprised by its quality. It really feels like Sneasel is a standard UU Pokemon when I use it. The immediate comparison a physical Ice type with Ice Shard gets is to Mamoswine of course, so what makes Sneasel special?

The speed tier is really, really huge. Sneasel can easily go 1v1 with Pokemon like Hydreigon, Haxorus, Shaymin, Roserade and Nidoking and OHKO them with Icicle Crash before they move in scenarios where Mamo is stuck in an awkward position where Ice Shard won't kill and it can potenitally get OHKOed before it attacks. STAB Knock Off isn't bad either. Sneasel also has a niche as a naturally fast Pursuit user if the team doesn't need extra coverage for Steels with Sneasel's Low Kick.

Sneasel does have some crippling flaws like lack of power against defensive teams without Swords Dance (which it is too frail to run) and frailty, but the utility of Knock Off + its performance against Offense, as well as its ability to switch into resisted attacks on the special side well enough make these flaws not bad enough to make it unviable. A Dark type that can't beat Cresselia and Reuniclus very well isn't great though. Despite this, Sneasel seems to fit pretty conformtably in C rank.

Replays (feat. Emboar):

Hide

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-276035001 - Really good Sneasel showcase. Early on, it forces switches thanks to its speed an knocks off items, crippling the switchins, allowing Sneasel to clean effectively at the end
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-269461672 - Sneasel puts in a ton of work, and beats a Toxicroak where Mamo wouldn't have been able to
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-274080993 - Not a great showcase for Sneasel tbh, but Emboar does really well in this
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-276037110 - Emboar breaks Qwilfish over a couple of turns LO less, Sneasel almost cleans by itself, but fails by 4% and causes Seismitoad to get outstalled in the end :(

My postings on the Dark Horse also contain more commentary on Sneasel and Emboar as well as more replays.

Finally, to a mon I posted about in the Creative/Underrated sets thread:

Sceptile to C - While its Mega can eclipse it in most cases, the competition for the Mega slot is stiffer than ever in UU. That begs the question of why to use Sceptile over Roserade or Shaymin as offensive Grass types. Like with Sneasel, the speed is a crucial factor, as outspeeding the likes of Azelf, Heliolisk, Entei, Mega Houndoom, Whimsicott and the like is really important and makes it so that it's not forced out as much. With its Life Orb set, it can also lure Fairies that wall the traditional Mega Scept set with Iron Tail and use its good mixed coverage to beat various other Pokemon in the tier. A SubSD set with Unburden + Sitrus Berry or Ovegrow + Salac Berry functions similarly to Hawlucha and can sweep pretty efficiently, having a niche one of the few physical setup sweepers that can beat Quagsire and is good at using bulky Waters as setup fodder in general.

I lack replays atm since they were down at the time I posted these sets, but here is the link to the post, so that you can see the sets and descriptions. I just wanted to post this since it's been on my mind for a while.

That's all. Sorry for the long post.

Wow nice post Jaguar360 I actually agree with Sceptile and Emboar to C rank! But however I dont agree with sneasel... =)

 

[Pinkin Lark]

I never said they played the same role, just that they were both defensive Pokemon in general. They wall different things, they have different support abilities, but when comparing pure power level (i.e. "How good at its job is this compared to one another?" Florges just appears to be better at its job of being a special tank and dragon/dark check than Suicune does of checking bulky attackers and fire types.

But I'll humor you guys, using the numbers from the standard Calm Mind set (252 HP/252 SpD/4 SpA Bold).
Setup sweepers from A rank and above:
Feraligatr -
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Feraligatr: 127-150 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 220+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 278-329 (77.2 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So, Moonblast always 2HKOs with LO recoil and he can't OHKO with a +1 Waterfall. Meaning if he tries to set up on Florges, he will get 1 attack off maximum, and you can easily swap out to whatever wall you'd normally use to take a big water hit.

Reuniclus - Sets up on Florges, but takes ~30% on the switch in to Moonblast.

Salamence -
Always OHKOs with SR, sometimes OHKOs without it. Iron Tail always fails to OHKO.

Suicune - Sets up on Florges unless Florges has already boosted once with CM, then she wins.

Mega Aerodactyl -
4 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 118-141 (39.2 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 248+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 253-298 (70.2 - 82.7%)

If he goes for Hone Claws or switches into Stealth Rock, he dies. Stone Edge fails to OHKO even after the boost.

Heracross -
OHKO'd with Stealth Rock, fails to OHKO with any move. Never gets a chance to SD.

Toxicroak -
He can't switch into a Moonblast twice and the NP set fails to even 2HKO through leftovers with Sludge Bomb. Gunk Shot does OHKO on the physical set, though accuracy still is the issue. Either way, he can never set up on her.

Curselax - Sets up on Florges.

Venomoth - Can switch in and set up on a Moon Blast, cannot set up on a Calm Mind, as +1 Moonblast 2HKOs after SR and Veno cannot OHKO with Sludge Bomb.

3/9 can set up on Florges, and all of those have plenty of other checks in the tier. Now let's list all the Pokemon on A rank or higher that are checked or walled by Florges:

Hydreigon - OHKO'd by Moonblast, fails to OHKO with Flash Cannon even with Specs.

Krookodile - Anything short of a CB Earthquake fails to 2HKO. Moonblast always OHKOs w/ SR and 50% of the time otherwise.

Mega Blastoise - Nothing he can muster does more than ~30%, Florges can set up CM easily.

Empoleon - Scald barely does an average of ~20% and even Flash Cannon fails to 2HKO without significant SpA investment and/or LO. Florges sets up on him.

Mandibuzz - Taunt prevents setup, but she's 2HKO'd 77% of the time through Leftovers by unboosted Moonblast and fails to do more than 10% with Knock Off or Foul Play.

Mienshao - Moonblast always OHKOs, Poison Jab 2HKOs. She counters choiced versions, but LO that predicts the switch will get her.

Porygon2 - Florges sets up on him, even through Toxic thanks to Aromatherapy.

Rotom-c - Even Specs Leaf Storm fails to 2HKO, she sets up on him.

Sharpedo - OHKO'd by Moonblast, fails to 2HKO with any move barring 2 max damage Waterfalls after SR.

Shaymin - Barring a Seed Flare SpD drop, Florges walls the set with Synthesis out PPstalling Seed Flare.

Slowking - Only the CM version with Psyshock ever has a chance of getting through Florges. Every other set is set up on.

Whimsicott - 2HKO'd by Moonblast and does virtually nothing with U-turn. Can Encore Calm Mind, but that's it.

Cresselia - Only CM/Psyshock set has a chance, and even that can be beaten by a CM war followed by a SpA drop from Moonblast.

Forretress - Gyro Ball 4HKOs, she's setup bait. Even Explosion only does ~45% max.

Froslass - She gets up her spikes but Florges 2HKOs.

Infernape - Nothing he can do 2HKOs even through rocks, and he's always 2HKO'd by Moonblast.

Kyurem - Short of specs Ice Beam usually 2HKOing into SR, she can set up on any other move and still live Ice Beam with Synthesis.

Sceptile - Moonblast OHKOs if he Mega Evolves, 2HKOs if he doesn't and he fails to 2HKO with anything.

Slurpluff - Does nothing to Florges without Belly Drum, Florges OHKOs after a Belly Drum.

Tangrowth - Setup bait for Florges unless he's some full Atk set with Power Whip.


Conclusion: Florges is a safe switch in to a vast portion of the metagame. Arguably, more than any other Pokemon. In addition, it negates status with Aromatherapy, potentially sets up to sweep with Calm Mind, and even dents the Pokemon that check it for at least 20% on the switch in. It's pretty much the ubiquitous defensive Pokemon that's a staple of balance and stall teams. This thing is a massive bitch, and it definitely deserves a slot among the best of the best. Florges A+ to S.

tl;dr - Florges beats most Dragon/Fighting/Dark types regardless, as well as shit that can't touch it like Heracross(guessing SD Facade bodies it tho). And sets up on more passive mons like P2. Arguments like "CM Florges beats Hydreigon" is probably about as weak as you can get.

Also:
- Suicune, Empoleon, and sometimes Stoise/MStoise(more the former) run Roar, as well as Mandi being able to run Whirlwind, easily phazing your setup attempts.
- I'm pretty sure there's 0 Slowking sets that don't run Psyshock, unless they REALLY want that 10 BP from Psychic and lose to special walls.
- There's no "can" about Whimsicott Encoring you into CM, it WILL Encore you, then go into suitable counter and kill you for free/force you out.
- Froslass either Taunts you and gets up free spikes then clicks Destiny Bond, or it just Taunts you and clicks Destiny Bond. Either way, it clicks Destiny Bond and you lose.
- Slurpuff is a terrible example, it can't beat much without the Drum boost. Same with Forry in a way, but no sane person is going to try to 1v1 a Florges with a Forretress.

Anyways, for Jaguar360's nominations, I agree with the Emboar for C. Thing is pure power. Only real drawbacks is the massive recoil, and a slight case of 4MSS. Speed isn't great either, but who cares when something is probably going to die. Don't really agree with normal Sceptile, as the mega pretty much does everything better(except taking Ice Shards). And I'm mixed on Sneasel, it provides a nice offensive typing and speed, but the classic "Why not Mamo" sort of comes into play tbh.

 

[Nightingales]

I've been using Sneasel, and the speed tier is really a huge deal. It's also one of the more effective revenge killers, because next to nothing outspeeds it and most of what does is weak to Ice Shard.

Agreeing with it to C.

 

[Malin]

Sneasel to C - This was the other DH mon and, unlike with Emboar, I had never used it before so I was quite surprised by its quality. It really feels like Sneasel is a standard UU Pokemon when I use it. The immediate comparison a physical Ice type with Ice Shard gets is to Mamoswine of course, so what makes Sneasel special?

The speed tier is really, really huge. Sneasel can easily go 1v1 with Pokemon like Hydreigon, Haxorus, Shaymin, Roserade and Nidoking and OHKO them with Icicle Crash before they move in scenarios where Mamo is stuck in an awkward position where Ice Shard won't kill and it can potenitally get OHKOed before it attacks. STAB Knock Off isn't bad either. Sneasel also has a niche as a naturally fast Pursuit user if the team doesn't need extra coverage for Steels with Sneasel's Low Kick.

Sneasel does have some crippling flaws like lack of power against defensive teams without Swords Dance (which it is too frail to run) and frailty, but the utility of Knock Off + its performance against Offense, as well as its ability to switch into resisted attacks on the special side well enough make these flaws not bad enough to make it unviable. A Dark type that can't beat Cresselia and Reuniclus very well isn't great though. Despite this, Sneasel seems to fit pretty conformtably in C rank.

Replays (feat. Emboar):

Hide

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-276035001 - Really good Sneasel showcase. Early on, it forces switches thanks to its speed an knocks off items, crippling the switchins, allowing Sneasel to clean effectively at the end
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-269461672 - Sneasel puts in a ton of work, and beats a Toxicroak where Mamo wouldn't have been able to
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-274080993 - Not a great showcase for Sneasel tbh, but Emboar does really well in this
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-276037110 - Emboar breaks Qwilfish over a couple of turns LO less, Sneasel almost cleans by itself, but fails by 4% and causes Seismitoad to get outstalled in the end :(

My postings on the Dark Horse also contain more commentary on Sneasel and Emboar as well as more replays.

I support this nomination. I was playing with Sneasel at the same time Jaguar360 was researching for Dark Horse and I definitely agree Sneasel has some hidden power to be discovered by UU. Altho Sneasel is not strong as his older brother, Dark/Ice is a fantastic offensive type and a base 115 Spe is no joke for UU patterns. STAB priority is always nice, especially when it takes chunks from some faster threats that could otherwise easily revenge kill Sneasel, like Aero, Bee or Sceptile Mega (this one a confortably KO)

I think Jaguar360 covered Sneasel very well, especially pointing out his performance against offense, that is definitely amazing. While base 90 Atk seems pitiful, backed up by a Life Orb, Sneasel hits as hard as Mega Absol! I really think Sneasel can somewhat compete for a team slot against the likes of MegaSol, which have a better ability in Magic Bounce, but makes use of a Mega Stone instead (and have a shit speed tier before mega evolving). They both have pitiful defenses as well, MegaSol's 65/60/60 and Sneasel's 55/55/75, so altho they have SD, none have an easy time setuping. Mega Absol does have some things going for it, especially since it can run a mixed set with Fire Blast, but sometimes you just want a dark type to use knock off and threat offense.

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Knock Off vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 97-114 (30.9 - 36.4%)
252 Atk Mega Absol Knock Off vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 102-120 (32.5 - 38.3%)

252 Atk Life Orb Sneasel Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 221-263 (68.2 - 81.1%)
252 Atk Mega Absol Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%)

Just to be clear, the only viable set Sneasel should be running is an All-Out Attacker like RU Sneasel uses.

Sneasel @ Life Orb
Ability: Pickpocket
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Low Kick/Pursuit

So yes, I think the combination of a high Speed stat + great dual STAB + STAB priority can be useful and as such Sneasel should be ranked.

 

[LRXC]

Okay, I am going to make another post on a mon that I think deserves to be in C-rank. Also before reading this, dont worry, it will Not be as long as my Accelgor post LOL, that was pretty over the top. I really think that Mega Banette deserves to be C-rank, as it is the only mega (Non counting Mega-Audino cause she really stinks) That isn't ranked in the viability rankings, and I actually think it can put in some work. So here it is!

Mega-Banette for C-rank!

Okay now, you may be thinking " This guy stinks! Why would you want to use him" And I will tell you why, prankster, and attack. Banette has an extremely high base attack, with a base 165 attack! Which makes him the best physical ghost type in UU, attack wise. He also has a very good move in Phantom Force, with a high base power and blowing through protects. His prankster is what really make him shine though, making him able to use a prankster will-o-wisp, prankster taunt, confuse ray, substitute, attract, cotton guard, pain split! And so much more! His base stats are also pretty good for having such high attack as well. He also makes use having the only priority destiny bond in the game, meaning at worst it takes down one mon with it, but it can usually take out 2! Mega bannette uses his prankster so well in the game, like maybe going with a substitute DISABLE set, or maybe getting a priority thunder wave, will-o-wisp to cripple physical attackers, and then set up with a COTTON GUARD. Maybe go for a pain split, and get Mega Banette some form of recovery. His prankster makes him have so many good options to choose from!

Now, for his attack. Banette doesnt have the best speed stat, with a base 75, but he has many priority moves that make use of it, like Sucker punch and Shadow sneak!, Which means Banette may be the only pokemon who can viably use all priority! Always going first! His Phantom Force also hits like a TRUCK

His pre mega abilities are also useful, including frisk and cursed body, Cursed body can eliminate a move that threatens Banette and your team, and frisk can reveal if maybe the oponett has a choice item, so you sucker punch or paralyze, or maybe leftovers so you know what kind of set they are running!

Okay, Banette is obviously not the best mon in the world, as it is easily worn down and is KIND OF niche, but honestly, with such a wide support movepool with prankster, and a ridiculously high base attack while also making use of that with priority, I think Mega-Banette should be C-rank.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Okay, I am going to make another post on a mon that I think deserves to be in C-rank. Also before reading this, dont worry, it will Not be as long as my Accelgor post LOL, that was pretty over the top. I really think that Mega Banette deserves to be C-rank, as it is the only mega (Non counting Mega-Audino cause she really stinks) That isn't ranked in the viability rankings, and I actually think it can put in some work. So here it is!

Mega-Banette for C-rank!

Okay now, you may be thinking " This guy stinks! Why would you want to use him" And I will tell you why, prankster, and attack. Banette has an extremely high base attack, with a base 165 attack! Which makes him the best physical ghost type in UU, attack wise. He also has a very good move in Shadow Force, with a high base power and blowing through protects. His prankster is what really make him shine though, making him able to use a prankster will-o-wisp, prankster taunt, confuse ray, substitute, attract, cotton guard, pain split! And so much more! His base stats are also pretty good for having such high attack as well. He also makes use having the only priority destiny bond in the game, meaning at worst it takes down one mon with it, but it can usually take out 2! Mega bannette uses his prankster so well in the game, like maybe going with a substitute DISABLE set, or maybe getting a priority thunder wave, will-o-wisp to cripple physical attackers, and then set up with a COTTON GUARD. Maybe go for a pain split, and get Mega Banette some form of recovery. His prankster makes him have so many good options to choose from!

Now, for his attack. Banette doesnt have the best speed stat, with a base 75, but he has many priority moves that make use of it, like Sucker punch and Shadow sneak!, Which means Banette may be the only pokemon who can viably use all priority! Always going first!

His pre mega abilities are also useful, including frisk and cursed body, Cursed body can eliminate a move that threatens Banette and your team, and frisk can reveal if maybe the oponett has a choice item, so you sucker punch or paralyze, or maybe leftovers so you know what kind of set they are running!

Okay, Banette is obviously not the best mon in the world, as it is easily worn down and is KIND OF niche, but honestly, with such a wide support movepool with prankster, and a ridiculously high base attack while also making use of that with priority, I think Mega-Banette should be C-rank.

First off, don't hate on my Mega Audino. All it needed to be great was Softboiled/Moonlight. GG Game Freak.

On topic: Didn't we used to actually have MBanette listed in C before? Pretty sure it dropped back then for a reason, and the situation hasn't really changed for it.

MBanette's got two big draws: Prankster and that lovely 165 base Attack. The latter is let down by a terrible movepool/STAB options. Phantom Force may be a decent power option, but it gives the opponent free switchins to any Dark/Normal in the game. Outside of that, the only real attacks it has is Sucker Punch/Knock Off(both Non-STAB), Shadow Sneak/Claw(both with rather poor BP), and Gunk Shot.

As for Prankster, it's a weak redeeming quality when you consider it is a mega. It does have a ton of options for use, but most every one of them is uber niche(Cotton Guard, Attract, etc.). I honestly think the only reason hes even RU is because of that Prio Dbond, which is punished by any form of Status; even Taunt isn't a complete safeguard with moves like Sludge Bomb, TSpikes, and Scald around.

Really, the biggest downside to MBanette is the fact it's going to take your Mega slot for something a Sableye could generally do(yes - Sable is OU, but the comparison still stands). Maybe if it got any form of Speed/Bulk boost on the Mega, it would have been good. But 64/75/83 isn't going to wall much, and 75 Spe is going to get beat by a LOT.

 

[LRXC]

First off, don't hate on my Mega Audino. All it needed to be great was Softboiled/Moonlight. GG Game Freak.

On topic: Didn't we used to actually have MBanette listed in C before? Pretty sure it dropped back then for a reason, and the situation hasn't really changed for it.

MBanette's got two big draws: Prankster and that lovely 165 base Attack. The latter is let down by a terrible movepool/STAB options. Phantom Force may be a decent power option, but it gives the opponent free switchins to any Dark/Normal in the game. Outside of that, the only real attacks it has is Sucker Punch/Knock Off(both Non-STAB), Shadow Sneak/Claw(both with rather poor BP), and Gunk Shot.

As for Prankster, it's a weak redeeming quality when you consider it is a mega. It does have a ton of options for use, but most every one of them is uber niche(Cotton Guard, Attract, etc.). I honestly think the only reason hes even RU is because of that Prio Dbond, which is punished by any form of Status; even Taunt isn't a complete safeguard with moves like Sludge Bomb, TSpikes, and Scald around.

Really, the biggest downside to MBanette is the fact it's going to take your Mega slot for something a Sableye could generally do(yes - Sable is OU, but the comparison still stands). Maybe if it got any form of Speed/Bulk boost on the Mega, it would have been good. But 64/75/83 isn't going to wall much, and 75 Spe is going to get beat by a LOT.

Yes all of that is true, but Its prankster is such a good ability, and can make it where he can wall attacks, with cotton guard, or even will-o-wisp. I just think it is worth a C-rank as it packs a punch with that high base attack.... So yeah... Also you never said if you think it should be C rank, do you think it should or could be? =)

 

[Shadestep]

i really don't like all the C-rank nominations going on at the moment, but w/e ill give it my two cents.

on paper M-Banette looks really good; high atk, godlike ability, good moves to abuse prankster, will-o spam, etc but in theory it never works. its mega stat boosts also do not make any sense, seeing as it is now supposed to be a physical attacker rather than a support mon (the fuck GF?), which it is really bad against. gunk shot and sucker punch are the only notable 'coverage' moves that are usable, and it is really just too slow to do anything with his Atk stat anyways.

taunt + dbond seems safer than it is. with scald, sludge bomb, and other secondary effect moves (like pinkin lark already stated), youre most likely fucked when it comes to spamming dbond, youre better off running sharpedo or froslass for that tbh.

seeing all the random super-mini-niche-thats-99%-outclassed mons in C-rank, i guess banette could find a spot there, but meh..

 

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Okay I'll post about this since I'm the one who asked for Mega Banette to get kicked off the list a while ago. My points from way back then still stand, as as far as I know, nothing really changed for it or made it better.

The basic problem with Mega Banette is that it frankly is never worth your Mega Slot. Its only even reasonable use is to use Prankster Destiny Bond and spread status, but in all honesty, I really don't think it's worth using my Mega Slot for something who solely serves to die to get a kill, and unlike other things like Froslass, Sharpedo, and Houndoom, it can't do anything else. More importantly is its high opportunity cost and low incentive and reward to use it over another Mega. By using Mega Banette, you are holding yourself back because you simply cannot use another one of the myriad of wonderful Megas we have in here, such as Aerodactyl, Blastoise, Aggron, you name it. Mega Banette is also really difficult to get going because its base form is both frail and slow, and is weak to Knock Off which is really common right now, plus the horrifying drawback of Prankster not activating on the first turn. Mega Banette also suffers because of its lack of an offensive movepool which means it really isn't threatening much with just something like Shadow Claw and weak moves like Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak, the former being easily played around and the latter being weak as hell. It's so easy to deal with with stuff like Umbreon and Hydreigon being common. Basically, the most Mega Banette ever does in battle because of this is throw a status move in, maybe get in one attack or two, then use Prankster Destiny Bond. That's also really easy to play around because opponents can either use Taunt on it or just switch out here and there till it drains the low PP. Also the popularity of poison and burn isn't helping it either.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Mega Banette has such a minimal effect on the battle for its cost of a Mega Slot. It's a very high risk and low reward Pokemon that also denies you the opportunity to use one of our many Megas such as Blastoise, Aerodactyl, and Ampharos. Its issues are especially apparent in UU considering we have so many Megas to use, which means justifying usage of Mega Banette is pretty difficult. Honestly, if I wanted a Ghost-type on my team that could do whatever Mega Banette does, I'd just pick up Chandelure, Mismagius, or Doublade (or something among those lines) and use another Mega. In short, Mega Banette really isn't worth it, and I don't think it deserves even C Rank for that matter because of how unrewarding it is.

 

[Mar1onette]

Okay I'll post about this since I'm the one who asked for Mega Banette to get kicked off the list a while ago. My points from way back then still stand, as as far as I know, nothing really changed for it or made it better.

Well I dont really care what happens to mega banette i will say that things have changed for it, slight things for it specifically. Smeargle, Hoopa-C, and Venomoth; Mega Banette benifites from all these pokes in some way, Smeargle it can stop completely with taunt, Venomoth mega banette can stop from setting up and can be a good revenge killed with shadow sneak for it, and hoopa-C mega banette is a decent check for it. As i said these aren't the biggest things in the world but these are some changes that have happened that affect mega banette in some way shape or form, I can see it getting D, maybe not C- but if it doesn't get either i won't be losing any sleep on it, but some things have made it a little "better".

Edit- Oops i forgot that UU Viability Ranking don't use D Rank like the other tiers do, sorry bout that Pinkin Lark my bad.

 

[Pinkin Lark]

Well I dont really care what happens to mega banette i will say that things have changed for it, slight things for it specifically. Smeargle, Hoopa-C, and Venomoth; Mega Banette benifites from all these pokes in some way, Smeargle it can stop completely with taunt, Venomoth mega banette can stop from setting up and can be a good revenge killed with shadow sneak for it, and hoopa-C mega banette is a decent check for it. As i said these aren't the biggest things in the world but these are some changes that have happened that affect mega banette in some way shape or form, I can see it getting D, maybe not C- but if it doesn't get either i won't be losing any sleep on it, but some things have made it a little "better".

Smeargle sees very low usage in UU, and even then, it is generally a turn 1 lead to get hazards up and die. Banette will be outsped turn 1 and get put to sleep if you're running anything but Insomnia and don't mega. Even then, they might just go straight for hazards to be safe. As for Veno/Hoopa: Hoopa will NEVER give you an opportunity to get in, barring a super obvious Focus Blast, and will simply switch out if you do come in if you aren't running Pursuit(which you really shouldn't, this is literally the only situation where it would force a switch); Veno will get +1 on the switchin/Mega turn and destroy you with Tinted Lens + STAB moves. None of these have helped it in any capacity.

As for your suggestion of D-rank for it: "Reserved for Pokemon that are still in the UnderUsed tier, but are, simply put, ineffective in this meta." MBanette isn't in the tier, which is why it isn't already there.

 

[Sam]

Hey so I know everyone means the best with their discussion but the moderation team has noticed a trend in this thread that we'd like to address.

Right now there's way too much focus on C-rank mons, arguing about semantics when in reality the definition of C-rank is intentionally defined pretty loosely to give the rankers a little more leeway. Looking at the last few pages, you can definitely notice that most of the discussion has been around C-rank stuff and we'd like to get away from that a little bit. An important part of the viability rankings is understanding where a mon fits in the tier and why it fits there, and this is also true for mons in the higher ranks. In fact, it's probably more important for those mons as they are the ones who shape the tier. There's a lot of newer posters in the thread and I think it would be great for them to get this kind of perspective from this thread. This may come off a little harsh, but I'm going to stop any discussion of anything involving C-rank right now. Focus on the higher ranks right now. Anything not following this will be deleted and repeated or egregious offenses will be infracted.

 

[Nightingales]

Aye-Aye, Ma'am. Or. Sir. The avatar is confusing.

Anyways, I'd like to seriously consider Moltres to A- here.

Now, we know Birdspam has always given the tier hell. It's one of the reasons why Mega Pidgeot was so broken. 100% accurate hurricanes aside. But now, there's next to no actual Flying offensive in the tier. There's only Three Flying types in A- or above; Salamence, Crobat, and Mega Aerodactyl. Salamence doesn't use it's secondary stab 90% of the time, Crobat's typically more of a bulky defogger rather than an offensive set, and Mega Aerodactyl... well, the thing is actually really good so I'm not gonna argue it.

But the thing is, nobody is prepared for Moltres. The Dual Stabs it brings just tears apart slower teams, and it can pretty easily break stallier things with Roost access. Plus it has Pressure so things that might try whittling it down can be stopped after a few moves, especially since it can run Will-O-Wisp. On top of that, nearly everything above it would absolutely hate to take a Hurricane or Fire Blast off it.

The issue with rocks is a bit concerning, but considering that it forces switches all over the place, it can pretty easily just roost it off.

So yeah, Fire Bird to A Minus.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

So not really a nom but is there any reason Venomoth is still A- and not B+? Maybe I just haven't seen it used properly but it seems to me that this mon is much less effective in this current meta than we had originally hyped it up to be, I would like to hear why its A- but it just doesn't seem to fit there for me honestly.

 

[Aquadext]

So after testing different teams and playing many (like a damn lot) games, I have a few nominations :

Sceptile-Mega --> A- to A : Sceptile right now is an underrated Pokemon and I find it hard to see why, as it really shines in the meta. Scarfers are rare, Beedrill and Crobat see less usage, special walls (bar Florges) are disappearing, Rotom-C is getting very popular, and Water-types are everywhere. While the special set is already very good, a physical SD set is effective as well, meaning the opponent often doesn't know what to send against Sceptile until the set is revealed. Definitely deserves A rank (also nailing +1 gatr is sweet)

Feraligatr --> S to A+ : I know many people are not agreeing with me on this one, but I think Feraligatr is not as threatening and meta-defining as it used to be. With the meta shifting towards bulky offense and defensive walls, Gatr has a really hard time setting up and getting the job done. It will often kill something, but many other setup sweepers can do that as well.

Umbreon --> B+ to A- : I brought this a few pages before but got ignored, so there it is again. Umbreon is great right now, walling many things, being able to run both defensive and specially defensive sets, passing large Wishes and being no setup fodder thanks to Foul Play.

Roserade --> B+ to A- : Roserade needs more love. Its specially defensive set is extremely effective, as it one of the few fast spikers/t-spikers of the tier. Thanks to its improved bulk and good typing, it can come on many common things, such as Swampert, Florges, Nidoqueen, and set hazards, put something to sleep or hit hard thanks to its high SpA. With Crobat being much more rare, it has a much easier time on the battlefield.

Jellicent --> B+ to A- : This big jelly is a beast. It beats so much common threats thanks to its awesome stallbreaking abilities and unique typing, such as Doublade, Cobalion, Reuniclus, Suicune, Swampert... and spinblockers are always nice. Really deserves to be used more.

Edit: oh well mb

 

[empire370]

So after testing different teams and playing many (like a damn lot) games, I have a few nominations :

Sceptile-Mega --> B+ to A- : Sceptile right now is an underrated Pokemon and I find it hard to see why, as it really shines in the meta. Scarfers are rare, Beedrill and Crobat see less usage, special walls (bar Florges) are disappearing, Rotom-C is getting very popular, and Water-types are everywhere. While the special set is already very good, a physical SD set is effective as well, meaning the opponent often doesn't know what to send against Sceptile until the set is revealed. Definitely deserves A- rank, even A+ imo but let's not go too fast. (also nailing +1 gatr is sweet)

Feraligatr --> S to A+ : I know many people are not agreeing with me on this one, but I think Feraligatr is not as threatening and meta-defining as it used to be. With the meta shifting towards bulky offense and defensive walls, Gatr has a really hard time setting up and getting the job done. It will often kill something, but many other setup sweepers can do that as well.

Umbreon --> B+ to A- : I brought this a few pages before but got ignored, so there it is again. Umbreon is great right now, walling many things, being able to run both defensive and specially defensive sets, passing large Wishes and being no setup fodder thanks to Foul Play.

Roserade --> B+ to A- : Roserade needs more love. Its specially defensive set is extremely effective, as it one of the few fast spikers/t-spikers of the tier. Thanks to its improved bulk and good typing, it can come on many common things, such as Swampert, Florges, Nidoqueen, and set hazards, put something to sleep or hit hard thanks to its high SpA. With Crobat being much more rare, it has a much easier time on the battlefield.

Jellicent --> B+ to A- : This big jelly is a beast. It beats so much common threats thanks to its awesome stallbreaking abilities and unique typing, such as Doublade, Cobalion, Reuniclus, Suicune, Swampert... and spinblockers are always nice. Really deserves to be used more.

mega sceptile was recently moved up to a-
I dont agree with moltres moving up and on the fence with roseade. moltres requires more support than other mons in a- to be effective and i feel that roseade is threatened by to many physical attackers that it cant switch into, but it is a cool entry hazard setter and is in a decent speed tier. I agree with jellicent going to a- it has good bulk and is an amazing fighting check. Also venomoth moved up to a- due to it being one of the most deadliest sweepers in the tier with acess to sleep powder it can come in on a slower mon put it to sleep and force it out and get a free quiver dance up, and it is able to make up for its horrid offensive typing with tinted lens. While its fraility is a big drawback due to entei or mega absol being able to come in and possibly ohko with prioty and even if its not koed it can be worn down with lo recoil, but i still think venomoth is currently on slurpuff and lucarios level so keep it a-

 

[DaSpoofy]

Anyways, I'd like to seriously consider Moltres to A- here.

Lets not
I have tested Moltres out in our current meta and is actually is very frustrating to use. Your appeal to rise for the lack of flying resists is not a bad one, but the fact that Moltres misses Hurricane half the time I click it is not a great feature. Both its main stabs lack 100% accuracy which means that nothing is certain with Moltres. Even Wilowisp misses on the Maerodactyl every once and a while. Sure I can opt for Flamethrower or even Overheat, but at that point I might as well run Chandelure. Chandelure also doesn't take 50% from stealth rocks. It has some nice qualities to boost it up all the way to B+ but it does indeed have many flaws that have to be made up for. B+ is great place for it at least until Flame Body gets released.

So not really a nom but is there any reason Venomoth is still A- and not B+? Maybe I just haven't seen it used properly but it seems to me that this mon is much less effective in this current meta than we had originally hyped it up to be, I would like to hear why its A- but it just doesn't seem to fit there for me honestly.

Venomoth is actually really good despite its low stats and lack of coverage. Venomoth has the typing to set up on a number of pokemon along with access to sleep powder. The main thing to keep in mind is the ability Tinted Lens which, as you may know, makes resists no longer resists. While people are preparing for the Mega Beedrill resist with stuff like Forretress and Gligar, they are unprepared for a bug type that can set up on their special walls and break through the bug resists.

 

[Arised]

Can I ask why Rotom-C is ranked higher than Rotom-H? Or even why Rotom-C is A? The first two things that come to mind is Rotom-H counters Mamo, Mega Abomasnow better than Rotom-C. Plus, Overheat in general has slightly better coverage in UU than Leaf Storm.