ORAS UU Viability Ranking Thread

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dingbat

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I demand Justice all mons from those gens need to be moving or wearing a sombrero or at least
also to make this post less useless few changes that can be discussed
Doublade to B+: Worth a disscussion while its "claim to fame" this meta is checking Terrakion,Flying types like Crobat,Mega Aero are more a lot more common and will probably get even more common if terra leaves he is one of the best checks to flying types in the tier that don't need a mega since the only flying types he loses to is Mega Pidgeot due to heat wave and Maybe Fletch with a Burn although the fact its speciall bulk is soo terrible it can lose 1v1 even to mons who only have resisted moves vrs it.heck even myself is not 100% sold on this move.

I know this is like the most pointless thing ever but don't we techincally have to have Pinsir in D since all the "bad" UU mons need to be there if they are on the tier due to the VR Policy?
Pinsir is bound to either drop or go back to OU depending on if people decide to use that again or not.

It was the same deal with regular Altaria and Lopunny; those two were clearly not viable in this meta so I never ranked them when they were still UU, and Pinsir is on the same boat here.

It's to show the Pokemon who moved in the update.
At least I think.
Naw, I went to the 4th generation dex on Serebii and all the sprites were moving there lol
 
how is gligar still a- rank? it is nice on balance and defensive teams, and it checks some of the threats that came down. also with recovery, hazards, hazard removal and momentum, it really can do a good job. nominating gligar for a/a+ rank
 

Kink

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how is gligar still a- rank? it is nice on balance and defensive teams, and it checks some of the threats that came down. also with recovery, hazards, hazard removal and momentum, it really can do a good job. nominating gligar for a/a+ rank
nah, poor attack, mediocre HP (especially being knock off bait), and poor speed make this little guy not on par with the other A/A+s
 

CoolStoryBrobat

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So while the now-dwarfed Shaymin sits in A- rank, what is it about Serperior that puts it in S Rank? Not gonna throw a controversial Shaymin Vs. Serperior debate in your face because it's rather pointless, but I am gonna controversially nominate Serperior for A+ rather than S. While yes, it does outspeed all the other S Rank mons barring Mega Aerodactyl and OHKO 2 of them without a boost (and OHKOes Mence with +2 Dragon Pulse), I kinda feel that as great as it is, it's still one-dimensional as a mon overall, even when factoring the useful moves such as Substitute, Glare, Leech Seed, Taunt, and anything else I missed (mostly those ones). The definition for the category even says: These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and almost always brings a high reward. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are more than made up for by numerous positive traits.

All the mons up here, aside from just being able to sweep or check a significant portion of the meta, have the common trait of versatility; they all are capable of running a fair number of movesets, or at least interchange between several different moves within a set to accomplish different goals, meaning the opponent has to do some guesswork on what set you're using with these mons before trying to deal with it. Serperior kinda lacks that, due to a bare-bones movepool to really abuse with its Contrary set, relying only on Dragon Pulse, Hidden Power, and I guess Giga Drain if you're into that, if not one of its support moves, namely Glare, to work with.

...If this is the part where you're internally saying to yourself, "Did he not see the 'or can just do one extremely well' part then screw you because I wasn't done yet :\ While Serperior is really excellent at getting the ball rolling, and it just gets by having the moves it needs to get whatever kills it can once it gets a Leaf Storm or two off, it still is forced to use that first Leaf Storm before it can really do anything, and in most cases if Serperior ends up being pitted against a Pokemon that it relies on Dragon Pulse/Hidden Power to deal any kind of decent damage to (basically every single Grass resist in the tier, which we have a lot of btw), then it's going to have to switch out or end up doing pittance to said Pokemon until it gets a safe opportunity to use Leaf Storm.

On the other hand I guess this isn't as big an issue since nearly every team carries a bulky Water-type which Serperior "sets up" on for free, it's still got a hefty number of checks, and unlike the other S Rank Pokemon, which can pick and choose whether some Pokemon even check them, Serperior doesn't have as much liberty to do so with its options, (unless you insist on using King UU's bulky Serperior or his Scarf set...) and is fairly one-dimensional. It's really good at cleaning and its offensive presence is nothing to take lightly, but in a tier where you got stuff like Mega Aggron, Crobat, Yanmega, Entei, Heracross, Hydreigon, Mega Beedrill, so on and so forth, all of which are respectable Serperior checks, in A+ rank and below, I see no reason why Serperior should be above them.

TL;DR: Serperior for A+; it's still a very good Pokemon but it's held back by its lack of versatility, which lends to it being more predictable and easier to check than the other S Rank Pokemon.
 

Adaam

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On the other hand I guess this isn't as big an issue since nearly every team carries a bulky Water-type which Serperior "sets up" on for free, it's still got a hefty number of checks, and unlike the other S Rank Pokemon, which can pick and choose whether some Pokemon even check them, Serperior doesn't have as much liberty to do so with its options, (unless you insist on using King UU's bulky Serperior or his Scarf set...) and is fairly one-dimensional. It's really good at cleaning and its offensive presence is nothing to take lightly, but in a tier where you got stuff like Mega Aggron, Crobat, Yanmega, Entei, Heracross, Hydreigon, Mega Beedrill, so on and so forth, all of which are respectable Serperior checks, in A+ rank and below, I see no reason why Serperior should be above them.

TL;DR: Serperior for A+; it's still a very good Pokemon but it's held back by its lack of versatility, which lends to it being more predictable and easier to check than the other S Rank Pokemon.
The problem with those checks you listed is that most of them die or are hit extremely hard by Serp at +2, and Serp outspeeds them all except Crobat, Beedrill, and Scarf Hydreigon. Nobody in their right mind would bring Serp in vs MAggron, Entei, Yanmega etc. Like you said, it has plenty of things it forces switches on like bulky waters (Suicune, for example), and while many things can take a neutral Leaf Storm on the switch, most of its checks then get outsped and hit really hard by one of its coverage moves. Unfortunately I can't give calcs so maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure Aggron, Roserade, Yanmega, Heracross, and Shaymin wouldn't want to take a +2 HP Fire, Hydreigon gets hit by D Pulse, and even things like Entei can be crippled by a boosted D Pulse after Rocks. I do agree that Crobat and Beedrill shit all over it, though.

Plus, I would argue that Suicune is even more one dimensional. Pretty much every Suicune is CroCune, so you already know an opponent's Pokemon's set if you see they have Suicune. Its completely walled also by Vaporeon, Heliolisk and Toxicroak, and it has much more safe switch ins like Roserade, Mega Amph, Shaymin, and even Serp. If that stays S, Serp should too
 
The problem with those checks you listed is that most of them die or are hit extremely hard by Serp at +2, and Serp outspeeds them all except Crobat, Beedrill, and Scarf Hydreigon. Nobody in their right mind would bring Serp in vs MAggron, Entei, Yanmega etc. Like you said, it has plenty of things it forces switches on like bulky waters (Suicune, for example), and while many things can take a neutral Leaf Storm on the switch, most of its checks then get outsped and hit really hard by one of its coverage moves. Unfortunately I can't give calcs so maybe I'm wrong, but I'm sure Aggron, Roserade, Yanmega, Heracross, and Shaymin wouldn't want to take a +2 HP Fire, Hydreigon gets hit by D Pulse, and even things like Entei can be crippled by a boosted D Pulse after Rocks. I do agree that Crobat and Beedrill shit all over it, though.

Plus, I would argue that Suicune is even more one dimensional. Pretty much every Suicune is CroCune, so you already know an opponent's Pokemon's set if you see they have Suicune. Its completely walled also by Vaporeon, Heliolisk and Toxicroak, and it has much more safe switch ins like Roserade, Mega Amph, Shaymin, and even Serp. If that stays S, Serp should too
Suicine is not one dimensial at all. Offensive calm mind and Life orb + tailwind that take advantage of suicines coverage (ice beam, extrasensory) have been used to great effect in tournaments although crocune is the most common set.
 

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I mostly agree with CSB - Serp is really good, but it is fairly restricted in its role because of the necessity of a boost. It would be great to use that speed to be a revenge killer, for example, but it can't actually revenge kill things like dragon types despite running Dragon Pulse and sometimes even HP Ice because even those SE moves will barely do squat without a Leaf Storm first (LO Dragon Pulse won't even KO Haxorus, with its underwhelming 76/70 special defense, without a boost). It's great when you can come in on a water or ground type, and get a boost no matter what the opponent does, but it's mega-predictable.

Not arguing that Serp hasn't become one of the most prominent threats in UU right now, just that most teams can check it with smart playing. Chances are stall teams already have good switch-ins, and offensive teams already have solid offensive checks, without having to seriously rearrange their teams. Balance is screwed over the hardest, but considering how popular Crobat and MAero are on balance teams, even they often have decent answers.

I will note that the new meta has actually helped Serp, though - Scarfrachi being gone is a huge relief, it can revenge non Scarf/RP Terrakion, and all three of the new big drops tend to punish Goodra, so the physical Sap Sipper Goodra sets that tended to totally shut down Serp are a lot less viable. While Scarfmence provides a new solid offensive check that kind of takes Jirachi's place in checking Serp, non-Scarfed versions get outsped and KO'd by a +2 Dragon Pulse.

EDIT: And, of course, because everyone loves ironic punishments, shortly after making this post my semi-stall team with no dedicated Serperior checks was completely swept by a Serp: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-208767285. Insert sad trombone noise here.
 
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I have to disagree with CSB in that I think Serp should remain in S - in fact, if you want my honest opinion, I think it's actually broken. Firstly, serp is not as one dimensional as people say. Obviously Leaf Storm is going to be on every set, but it has three other moveslots it can fill with a variety of support and coverage options, that can make it actually quite unpredictable in some situations. The threat of serp means any decent player will switch out their bulky water once serp comes in. This switch is always pretty obvious, so the serp player can act accordingly. It can paralyse bat on the switch while also forcing it to take rocks damage, for example. It's also worth mentioning that 4 of the 7 checks CSB mentioned are rocks weak (and I can add ScarfMence and Scarf Rotom-H), meaning serp can just lure these pokemon, switch, and come back to terrorise the team again later. I have noticed good players on the ladder employing this strategy.

Some of its 'checks' aren't even very good checks. Scarf Hydrei fails to OHKO with Fire Blast and gets bopped by Dragon Pulse for example. Same with Scarf Mence. Maybe they can weaken it for a revenge killer but even then serp can just switch, and all of the good sets run leftovers for passive recovery. People seem to have been using bat's existence as a reason to suggest serp isn't broken, but I have been using bat to check it recently and it's actually not that good. Aside from the obvious glare crippling it, serp can just switch to something like krook which basically has a paralysed bat at its mercy and can pursuit or knock off, weakening bat significantly for the next time serp comes in. Ofc that's a very specific situation but you can see what a bit of support can do. In other situations I've seen Glare + HP Ice which destroys bat completely. So serp is actually able to pick whether bat beats it or not.

The snake's versatility can be seen in how many sets have arisen since its introduction. It pretty much always runs Leaf Storm and Dragon Pulse, but in the last two slots it can run any combination of Glare, Taunt, Synthesis, HP Fire, HP Ice, Sub, Leech Seed and Giga Drain. It can mess with its checks using these support moves. Taunt Synthesis obliterates stall. (I speak from first hand experience here.) Glare cripples bat hard, and I've seen HP Ice to beat it more thoroughly. Sub Seed is great for wearing out incoming Rotom-H and Aggron-M. People have started to realise keeping serp alive for longer is better as it is actually capable of wearing down most of its checks with the right moves (granted, not all at once, but this still means you need more than check to beat it reliably.) Once the checks are gone it just cleans unless it can be revenge killed. Don't forget it has 75/95/95 bulk so it is by no means frail.

tl;dr The snake actually has enough versatility to make it dangerous. It does have checks but it has enough options to be able to pick and choose what beats it, meaning you may have to run more than one check. Thoroughly deserving of its S(erperior) rank imo.
 
So while the now-dwarfed Shaymin sits in A- rank, what is it about Serperior that puts it in S Rank? Not gonna throw a controversial Shaymin Vs. Serperior debate in your face because it's rather pointless, but I am gonna controversially nominate Serperior for A+ rather than S. While yes, it does outspeed all the other S Rank mons barring Mega Aerodactyl and OHKO 2 of them without a boost (and OHKOes Mence with +2 Dragon Pulse), I kinda feel that as great as it is, it's still one-dimensional as a mon overall, even when factoring the useful moves such as Substitute, Glare, Leech Seed, Taunt, and anything else I missed (mostly those ones). The definition for the category even says: These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and almost always brings a high reward. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are more than made up for by numerous positive traits.

All the mons up here, aside from just being able to sweep or check a significant portion of the meta, have the common trait of versatility; they all are capable of running a fair number of movesets, or at least interchange between several different moves within a set to accomplish different goals, meaning the opponent has to do some guesswork on what set you're using with these mons before trying to deal with it. Serperior kinda lacks that, due to a bare-bones movepool to really abuse with its Contrary set, relying only on Dragon Pulse, Hidden Power, and I guess Giga Drain if you're into that, if not one of its support moves, namely Glare, to work with.

...If this is the part where you're internally saying to yourself, "Did he not see the 'or can just do one extremely well' part then screw you because I wasn't done yet :\ While Serperior is really excellent at getting the ball rolling, and it just gets by having the moves it needs to get whatever kills it can once it gets a Leaf Storm or two off, it still is forced to use that first Leaf Storm before it can really do anything, and in most cases if Serperior ends up being pitted against a Pokemon that it relies on Dragon Pulse/Hidden Power to deal any kind of decent damage to (basically every single Grass resist in the tier, which we have a lot of btw), then it's going to have to switch out or end up doing pittance to said Pokemon until it gets a safe opportunity to use Leaf Storm.

On the other hand I guess this isn't as big an issue since nearly every team carries a bulky Water-type which Serperior "sets up" on for free, it's still got a hefty number of checks, and unlike the other S Rank Pokemon, which can pick and choose whether some Pokemon even check them, Serperior doesn't have as much liberty to do so with its options, (unless you insist on using King UU's bulky Serperior or his Scarf set...) and is fairly one-dimensional. It's really good at cleaning and its offensive presence is nothing to take lightly, but in a tier where you got stuff like Mega Aggron, Crobat, Yanmega, Entei, Heracross, Hydreigon, Mega Beedrill, so on and so forth, all of which are respectable Serperior checks, in A+ rank and below, I see no reason why Serperior should be above them.

TL;DR: Serperior for A+; it's still a very good Pokemon but it's held back by its lack of versatility, which lends to it being more predictable and easier to check than the other S Rank Pokemon.
i disagree. serperior can run defensive if it wants, offensive, and it has nice coverage. and switching out is possible. i used a defensive serperior set with leaf storm/sub/glare/synthesis, and it can just get behind a sub and leaf storm away. yes it has some checks/counters, but the rest of the team can help it get past those. if it was a+, it would be probably the best a+. its probs the worst s but it kinda deserves s. ill put a replay later.
 
i disagree. serperior can run defensive if it wants, offensive, and it has nice coverage. and switching out is possible. i used a defensive serperior set with leaf storm/sub/glare/synthesis, and it can just get behind a sub and leaf storm away. yes it has some checks/counters, but the rest of the team can help it get past those. if it was a+, it would be probably the best a+. its probs the worst s but it kinda deserves s. ill put a replay later.
I disagree with having glare. Put in dragon pulse and you won't have pokemon like Goodra force a switch out.
 
Glare doesn't always belong on Serperior, but to ignore it isn't a good idea. It's a very powerful move that can royally screw some of Serperior's counters. It's just an option Serperior has, so no, it's not one-dimensional. Yes, it CAN go full-bore offense, but it can also run bulk and stuff like Leech Seed and Glare. Contrary just means it is never ever ever passive.
 
There is no doubt in my mind that Serperior should stay S rank. There are just so few mons in the tier to check it with and it gets free switch ins against every single team because of the prevalence of bulky water types. Bulky waters are usually brought in to check heavy hitting fire types like Entei or Darmanitan. In order to keep these fire types in check you would need to keep the water types relatively healthy. This means that even if you have the balls to double into your Serperior check you can do it maybe once before your water type is overwhelmed. So with that I feel I can safely say that at some point in the game Serperior will at least get one free switch in and be able to use Leaf Storm. Since sacking a mon is usually not advised this means you'll have to switch out to a grass resist. Now unless this grass resist is either faster and can 1HKO or can wall Serperior then with just rocks on the field almost every resist is KOed by the next Leaf Storm or coverage move. The list of checks that can switch in more than once with general impunity that i came up with comes out to Crobat, Mega Pidgeot, SpDef Roserade, SpDef Amoongus, Golbat, Goodra, and Moltres. I may have missed some but basically with just rocks support Serperior has so few checks making it very constricting on teambuilding. Right now if you don't have 4x grass resist Serperior puts a ridiculous amount of pressure on the opposing player. Defintion of S rank in my opinion and probably should be banned along with Terrakion and Salamence.
 
agree serperior is easily an S rank mon, but disagree with it being broken.

S rank because STAB leaf storm is strong as shit after some boosts (a neutral STAB leaf storm is stronger than a super effective flamethrower), and serperior gets many free turns against bulky waters, grounds and some electric types, which are everywhere.

however, i don't think it's broken. first off, its offensive movepool is limited to grass, dragon pulse and hidden power. also, it's a very predictable mon; the only doubt you'll have is if it's gonna glare or leaf storm. it doesn't straight out 6-0 offense nor stall, as well. offensive teams have fire spammers, dragons, revenge killers, priority, u-turn, etc, which all can screw up serperior pretty badly. stallish teams often have crobat + cleric which is a combination that 100% stops serperior (stall should always use crobat anyways, otherwise SD hera just destroys it), as well as (toxic) spikes some times.

also omg FUCK terrakion, what a ridiculously broken mon, when is it getting banned?
 
can we honestly petition for terrakion to have his own rank or something, that shit is gay

serp is interesting as an s tier given that its the most predictable thing ever to exist, but honestly the raw power that it provides (not even unaware can stop it) is something that is greatly appreciated by anything. the ability to check bulky waters (which are on 99% of uu teams anyway so it's pretty much going to be great most of the time) is an asset to most teams

dont really see how its broken though, with crobat, megabee and megadactyl everyfuckingwhere, so offensive sets dont really get to sweep very easily. i guess the most people need to watch out for is glare, but it's not really too hard getting bat in with some slow u-turns.
 
can we honestly petition for terrakion to have his own rank or something, that shit is gay

serp is interesting as an s tier given that its the most predictable thing ever to exist, but honestly the raw power that it provides (not even unaware can stop it) is something that is greatly appreciated by anything. the ability to check bulky waters (which are on 99% of uu teams anyway so it's pretty much going to be great most of the time) is an asset to most teams

dont really see how its broken though, with crobat, megabee and megadactyl everyfuckingwhere, so offensive sets dont really get to sweep very easily. i guess the most people need to watch out for is glare, but it's not really too hard getting bat in with some slow u-turns.
not even a need for that anymore; serp and terra were just banned lol
best remove them from the list and get ready for mence domination
 
I'd remove Terrakion, but as Serperior is getting a public test, we can probably stick it in limbo or something for the time being. It might come back.
 
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