ORAS UU Viability Rankings V4

[DiscoDucky]

Although certainly not anything that would constitute towards its viability, Power Herb + Solarbeam + Magician is pretty cute. It cleans up against some Waters after they've been significantly weakened. Magician allows you to further disrupt the team by stealing the Pokemon's item.

Again, not at all anything significantly damning, but it still somewhat shows that Dephox has some UU metagame relevance albeit a very small one.

 

[dodmen]

Changes:

Milotic: B to B+. If Porygon2 belongs here, then Milotic definitely belongs here as well.

Diancie: B- to B. Actually thought I did this earlier. Being able to shut down a very respectable number of threats and not being extremely passive due to Stealth Rock and good STABs mean it definitely deserves to be ranked higher than stuff like Arcanine and Aromatisse. It's not restricted to any particular playstyle either, although its SR set definitely fits best on balance.

Yanmega: B- to C. Metagame is extremely unkind to this; Zapdos, Florges, Aerodactyl, and Mamoswine are 4 of the most commonly used Pokemon right now, not much else to say.

Switched Roserade and Shaymin, I know Shaymin B+ to B was just recently nominated and I didn't do it, but that was my bad. Roserade's just better overall with all the extra utility it provides (with Sleep, Spikes, and Fairy resistance), whereas Shaymin is stuck relying on a low PP, 40% move that's resisted by some of the best Pokemon in the tier.

-----

Onto a few nominations, most of which have been brought up previously:

Zapdos: A to A+. I can see why this nomination was made, Zapdos is very good against bulky offense, or just offense in general. However, it does fall a bit short against anything bulkier with Pokemon like Reuniclus, Florges, and Snorlax. Specs can put dents in these with Volt Switch but that's also quite difficult to support, put on a team, and get onto the field. Regardless, I would like to see some more discussion on this nom.

Cresselia: B+ to A-. Leaning towards yes on this one. CM is very good, obviously the main thing that sets it apart from Reuniclus is its much higher bulk and ability to beat Sableye. It actually fits well on offensive teams as a catch-all check to dangerous threats like Aerodactyl, Salamence and co. while either providing TWave and Lunar Dance support, or threatening with CM. Also, it's hands down the best Pokemon to use on support-based hyper offense (weather, Trick Room, screens offense if that's still a thing) which I think should be factored into this nom.

Other nominations that were brought up:

Entei: A+ to S. Like we said last time, Entei simply isn't as defining for UU as the rest of the S rank is. There's no doubt that it's one of the best Pokemon in the tier, and this is reflected by its top position in A+, but most of us agree that it's just not at the same level as the other S rank mons.

Delphox: no, use Infernape.

Also, for the record, I reordered S to Hydreigon -> Aero -> Salamence -> Suicune.

 

[Tymano]

Hoopa B -> B-: I love Hoopa, but the meta is extremely unkind to it, as offense (which it heavily struggles against) is one of the best playstyles right now. It is also made much worse due to the rise of Pursuit trappers such as Krook and Aero due to Zam's drop, as it can be made into deadweight against teams with trappers. Plus there really isn't much reason to use this over Zam right now unless you wanted a harder hitting shadow ball and a spinblocker, but Chandelure performs the role of a hard-hitting spinblocker much better, as it can actually do more than drop to a pursuit against an offensive team.

Diancie is a cool mon and should go up more.

 

[Adaam]

Hoopa does not heavily struggle against offense, it finds more than enough opportunities to set up TR and wreck havoc. Pretty much any special attacker lacking Dark/Ghost coverage can be set up on or choice locked Fighting types/unboosted Cobalion. Krook didn't really rise due to Zam since it loses to pretty much any variant unless it's running Scarf but I haven't seen a sudden rise in ScarfKrooks, and Pursuit Aero has always been super popular, although I agree that Zam probably made it even more used.

Don't think the Zam comparison is really fair since it offers a Fighting immunity + great SpD to check a bunch of nuisances for offense like the Nidos, Sceptile, Zapdos, ScarfShao, Reuniclus, Cresselia (!) etc and STAB Shadow Ball + 15 more base SpA make it infinitely harder to switch into. The extra SpA really goes a long way: M-Aero can't even switch in with Rocks up since it just dies to Psyshock, and it has a much easier time breaking fat shit like Florges, Suicune, Swampert, and even Umbreon. It's spinblocking ability like you mentioned is actually really nice for offense since it can stop Tentacruel easily (unless Knock Off) and doesn't take too much from M-Stoise besides Dark Pulse. NP also sets it apart which straight up beats any bulky build in existence.

It's flaws keep it below stuff like Chandy and Zam but you're really underselling how good it can be.

Other thoughts on recent noms:

Cress to A- Agree. It's an ok check to Zam + Gyara (Psyshock breaks sub), but the CM set is so devastating in this meta. With a bit of speed it can creep stuff like Daunt and avoid getting smacked, or you can just run Colbur berry and watch as 90% of teams Cress checks die to Moonblast (someone brought up CM Colbur in this thread and it is so good). It's really easy to fit on any team as a wincon/support mon and should definitely rise.

Zapdos to A+ Also agree. It basically made SR Cobalion fall from existence and is a huge nuisance for BO as dodmen pointed out. I also wanna throw in Scarf Zappy into the ring since it seems to be used the least out of all sets, but it is a great offensive Gyarados check and has a niche over the Rotoms in pivoting into Fighting types pretty well. Even though Scarf makes it somewhat weak, after a Close Combat most can't take a Thunderbolt/V-Switch so they're forced out and you gain momentum. Also outspeed ScarfDra and tying +1 Mence is pretty nice, but not the main reason to use it.

Really fat stuff bother it but its ability to pivot out (or even run SubToxic) circumvents that and really makes Zapdos the premier Electric in UU, after Ampharos of course.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I don't think that Yanmega should've moved at all in the first place. Specs + Tinted Lens already does quite a bit to many defensive teams out there. Of the four Pokemon dodmen mentioned, only one (Florges) could switch in safely into the Timid Specs variants for 36-40% damage. Yanmega dumps a significant amount of pain against Balance. Furthermore, Yanmega has a base 95 Speed. Although it's not the fastest in the tier, it does outpace some relevant elements in the tier (Krook, Hera, Croak). Furthermore, it should be noted that Timid Bug Buzz 2HKOs Fat Zapdos.

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 222-262 (57.9 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Out of all of the Pokemon in S and A ranks, only Cobalion can safely switch into a Bug Buzz (which is the most spammable STAB imo) by typing. It's definitely not the best option in the tier, but I personally see Yanmega's benefits fall more in line with Pokemon such as Espeon, Galv, etc.

 

[The Heartless Dictator]

Yeah, I really don't see why Yanmega dropped as well. Not to be rude to you dodmen, but that argument for dropping it was pretty poor to me personally. Yanmega has some definable niches compared to the other mons in C+, since we don't have any Pokemon in this tier that have access to both Speed Boost and Tinted Lens which are really good for their respective play styles. Tinted Lens mega is a friggin monster to switch into since STAB Bug Buzz off of Specs will do really good damage to the Pokemon you just listed that are pretty relevant (Barring Florges).

I mean, Yanmega obviously has its flaws, that's why it was B- to begin with, but dropping it merely because these 4 certain mons are relevant right now doesn't make Yanmega any less of a threat.

 

[Saria]

Yeah it hits hard, but you are ignoring all the cons, which are the reasons why Yanmega is so uncommon, unreliable and barely viable. If hitting hard alone was enough to make something high in the viability ranking Haxorus would be S.

The x4 SR weakness is massive. It requires Defog and Rapid Spin support, which is a huge deal for the kind of teams that would run Specs Yanmega, and cannot play around anything if you aren't capable of removing hazards. The worst part is that Yanmega synergies very poorly with the spin/defog users that "guarantee" hazard removal (Crobat, Mence, Zapdos, Blastoise)

95 Speed isn't impressive by any means and the Speed Boost set is really fucking bad at cleaning even late game, even regular Sharpedo is better. Slower than Beedrill, Alakazam, Aerodactyl, Zapdos, Crobat, Sceptile, Absol, Salamence, Infernape, Azelf, Haxorus, Mienshao, Hydreigon, Cobalion, Heliolisk, Sharpedo (doesn't even need Speed Boost) Shaymin, Whimsicott, less common stuff like Mega Houndoom and Tornadus, and literally every single Choice Scarf user. It does outspeed a bunch of other stuff, but in most cases it isn't strong enough to 1v1 them before going down (Nidoqueen, Suicune, Entei, Gyarados, Gardevoir, etc), can't reliably switch into them (Toxicroak, Heracross, Krookodile, Mamoswine, Blastoise, Roserade etc (this is when the rock weakness is important)) or straight up gets walled,

116 Special Attack using a 90 base power move is nothing in the UU tier. Not even the Specs boost is enough to make it good when you compare it with other hard hitters in the tier, especially because most of them can afford running LO

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 180-213 (52.7 - 62.4%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 175-207 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 238-281 (69.7 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 218-257 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 195-230 (57.1 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 220-259 (64.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 239-282 (70 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Haxorus Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 286-337 (83.8 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 187-222 (54.8 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery [calc done without the water type]
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Suicune: 219-258 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery [calc done without the water type]

Yes it barely outdamages LO Alakazam, which isn't a good thing when you consider the reasons why people run Alakazam and how Yanmega is bad at all of them. That's not even 1/4 of the Pokemon that do significantly more damage and note how I didn't mention a single setup sweeper. Tinted Lens makes Bug Buzz safer than all of them, which is a good pro for Yanmega, but it doesn't add the raw power to break through walls or OHKO relatively bulky stuff (Nido, Suicune, etc).

You are focusing on the small amount of offensive checks dodmen mentioned, but seemingly ignore the 50 others that exist in the tier or the fat shit not called Florges that don't die to Bug Buzz. Also, what kind of balance team doesn't run Florges, Snorlax, Porygon2 or softer checks like Empoleon, Mandibuzz, and still is slow enough to be actually threatened by Yanmega? You also seem to forget it's complete ass against offense, including the speed boost set except super late game after the rest of your team weakened the foe's team (still ass compared with more reliable cleaners, including regular Sharpedo 6_6), and stall gladly takes a piss weak "hard hitter" over something scary like Taunt Hydreigon.

tl;dr: Shit typing, needs too much dedicated team support to be usable, not fast nor strong by UU standards. It's only niche is being able to click Bug Buzz without thinking too much, which doesn't mean much when there are Pokemon that do its job better and without requiring any kind of support.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Yanmega only has good match up versus very specific sets of balance, and that's medicore at best. It doesn't punch holes in defensive teams because they're going to be running Blissey which just does not give a fuck about Yanmega. Doing 17% after leftover recovery is really shitty. So that's defensive teams, but they don't only have Blissey. Porygon and Florges are two annoyances as well,

252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 112-133 (29.9 - 35.5%) -- 30.4% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 138-164 (38.3 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Snorlax is also annoying and affordable to run on balance team.

On offense it's different, speed boost often struggles to clean even late game, like, all steel types have to be within HP ground range, from a pokemon with 116 special attack, that's pretty shit. Tinted lens of offense seems redundant, why wallbreaker an offensive team?

 

[Ramses]

Zapdos to A+: I can see this happening. It's literally the best and most splashable of Electrics in the tier. It's incredibly versatile in what it can actually do, which ranges from Offensive, Defensive, Specs, Scarf, SubToxic, even a hot Agility Pass set. It checks quite a few big threats of the tier extremely well such as Cobalion, Heracross, Mienshao, etc, it pretty much necessitates a singular move (Stone Edge) to be used just to not give it any free turns. It's understandable that it falls a little short when facing against the more bulkier threats in the tier, but I believe it was underestimated a bit since it can actually take a mean chunk off most things that come in on it when concerning it's LO set which is subjectively it's best set.

Cresselia to A-: Definitely. It's bulk is incredibly obscene and if you don't have the correct means of stopping it before it can setup you've literally lost the match before it's really started. It just doesn't die to anything you throw at it unless it monstrously strong or hits it SE. As Adaam. said it's biggest perk over other defensive Calm Mind users is it's access to Moonblast which just obliterates it's checks. It's also really splashable since the wide range of threats it checks and it functionality as a potent sweeper makes it a definite A- mon. Also the part about a "mediocre defensive typing" is sorta wrong. When you've got Arceus level bulk you're typing doesn't really matter and it even takes SE hits fairly well to the point where a single boost offsets its damage completely.

I'd like to know everyone's opinion on Bronzong to B+. I may be mistaken by this, but Bronzong is quite possibly one of the best defensive Stealth Rock setters in the tier bar Swampert and Nidoqueen. It's excellent mixed bulk allows it to check so much in the tier in a single slot and it's just incredible. Obviously the two aforementioned setters also check a plethora of threats in their own right, but Bronzong's Leviate reinforces that it doesn't fold under pressure due to hazards and in today's metagame Spikes are everywhere which is a large influence on what defensive stealth rock setters have the capacity to check. It's no secret that Bronzong (and the other setters) doesn't have reliable recovery which furthers it's susceptibility to hazards and being worn down, especially since it functions as a nice catch-all on the teams it is placed on, but it's very self sufficient in the current metagame as the trends further allocate themselves in it's favor, which I sum up to be the strong going presence of Mega Aerodacty, Salamence, Florges, Mega Sceptile, Whimsicott, Nidoqueen, etc. all in a single nifty slot. Nothing can really do that while retaining the utility it offers is simply unmatched by anything.

 

[retrowaves]

Cresselia: B+ to A-: Agreed. to be honest, I find it awkward that a mon that checks at least 60% of the tier just by their amazing base hp/def/spdef is still stuck at B+. Besides having a great movepool with moonblast, ice beam, dual screens and thunder wave, it can destroy teams that aren't prepared for it with the calm mind set, and even offensive teams can have trouble with it if it carries substitute as their 4th move. People who aren't prepared for Cresselia, for example, use their dark type mons to check it. Check how much damage the most used dark types take from moonblast:

0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Krookodile: 146-172 (44.1 - 51.9%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 236-280 (72.6 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(after one calm mind : 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 240 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 174-211 (39.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery)
0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye: 114-136 (37.5 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(after one calm mind : +1 0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Sableye: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

That is, implying the cresselia is cm, and not the thunder wave variant, because if that's the case Hydreigon doesn't even switch into it. Imo, such a splashable mon should deserve higher than B+. There are only two things Cresselia really doesn't like, though(besides dark type stab users): status, and taunt users, so they must be careful around things like toxic + taunt sableye/mandibuzz.

 

[ManOfMany]

Hi, I would like to reiterate the Delphox nomination.

Not satisfied at all with the answer given to: "just use Infernape." This is poor reasoning, because really, Delphox is not the same pokemon as special Infernape. Delphox has definite advantages over it. The first is a solid and unique two STAB combination. Infernape does not have this- Grass Knot is not STAB and is therefore far less spammable than Psychic, and Focus Blast is Focus Blast. But Delphox's combination of Psychic + Fire Blast makes it harder to switch into cause it can use either STAB to revenge kill threats. Psychic STAB + Fire Blast is all Delphox really needs to threaten every single pokemon in the UU game except for Slowking. Meanwhile, special Infernape gets checked by a lot of common pokemon- Salamence, Gyarados, Chandelure, Dragalge- without running a specific coverage move for them. However Delphox gets past these threats easily with a 2HKO by Psychic. Delphox is a more threatening immediate attacker than Infernape because of both its higher SpA (114 vs 104), and its dual STABs. However, despite lacking Nasty Plot, Delphox is just as hard to wall with a fat special wall because of unique moves at its disposal. I am currently running a Specs Delphox on a balance team. Not only does it hit absurdly hard, all switch-ins to either STAB move are easily crippled by Trick. The fourth move I am running is Dazzling Gleam to hit Hydreigon. It has been working really well because it is so easy to spam your STAB moves with such few pokemon that can resist both. I also tried out LO + CM, who can break through stuff like Florges and not be revenge killed by any special attacker, though it gets worn down a bit too easily with LO damage. I'm sure Scarf is also viable- nice dual STABs, good power, and Trick. And also, for the people saying Delphox is outclassed by other Psychic-Types, you use it primarily for its Fire typing, not psychic typing. Meaning it can absorb wisp and break through a ton of steels or fat Dark pokemon they wouldn't usually be able to, such as Escav and Umbreon. Anyway by that same logic, special Infernape itself as well as all slower special attackers would be outclassed by Alakazam if typing wasn't a factor. Delphox also has decent special bulk and can take a few special hits that Ape can't, such as from Whimsicott or Florges. Overall, Delphox isn't the best pokemon in the metagame. It's weak to rocks, kind of hard to fit onto a team, and weak to faster pursuit users. However, I think it has enough for a C ranking.

End it out with some mediocre replays (I didn't save everything unfortunately. Had this nice game vs TSR where I crippled his Zapdos with Specs and had the possibility to OHKO 4 out of 6 mons on his team):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-362438604- could spam Specs Fire Blast freely, because the fire resist Dragalge, was scared of switching in
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-362446073- Was able to wear down Suicune by spamming STAB psychic

 

[Ranbu No Melody]

I agree with ManOfMany mainly because Delphox have a better matchup versus Fire switch ins, and cripples with Trick what it can't beat usually

calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psychic vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 344-408 (95.2 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psychic vs. 188 HP / 0 SpD Dragalge: 338-398 (106.2 - 125.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 178-210 (44 - 51.9%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 148-174 (37.6 - 44.2%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery<resist
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Psychic vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 178-211 (51.5 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
mainly considering Hydreigon as example of what can't switch on Infernape, but can on Delphox
252 SpA Choice Specs Delphox Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 134-158 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

forgive any errors, it's about 1 AM and i'm almost sleeping, just showing some calcs in favor of Delphox

 

[Revelation]

Is there not much benefit to using Psyshock over Psychic on Delphox?

 

[Saria]

Delphox is a better Specs user than Infernape, that's k because Infernape is a terrible Specs user anyway and never runs that item. That's like hyping up Slowking because it's a better CM + Slack Off user than Infernape, ie: pointless and completely meaningless.

Special Infernape runs LO, so lacking a move like Psychic is kinda irrelevant with its coverage and Nasty Plot. If you want to just spam moves you have Choice Band Infernape, which runs Close Combat and Uturn, both are more spamable than anything Delphox has. Infernape has better typing better movepool, more speed, Uturn, priority, ability to break throught most of its checks and unpredictability, Delphox has Psychic?_?

If you truly believe Specs is the reason why it should be used over Infernape, then compare it with the real Specs users of the tier: Hydra, Kyurem, Chandelure, Dragalge, Porygon-Z and even Heliolisk. Note that it is 11, 16, 21 and 31 points weaker than Hydra, Kyurem, PZ and Chandelure respectively and with worse STABs, so I fail to see the "hits absurdly hard" part. If you want a fire type nuke you have Entei, CB Ape, Chandelure or Darmanitan (which is ass). If you want a fire type setup sweeper you have Infernape and Houndoom. And if you really want a super niche garbage fire type you have Camerupt.

The only things going for Delphox are a shitty uncommon type (Victini gets carried by its insane movepool and overall good stats, not the ass typing) and STAB Psychic. It's not even Exploud levels of garbage, it's a tier lower.

 

[dodmen]

Hi, I would like to reiterate the Delphox nomination.

Not satisfied at all with the answer given to: "just use Infernape." This is poor reasoning, because really, Delphox is not the same pokemon as special Infernape. Delphox has definite advantages over it. The first is a solid and unique two STAB combination. Infernape does not have this- Grass Knot is not STAB and is therefore far less spammable than Psychic, and Focus Blast is Focus Blast. But Delphox's combination of Psychic + Fire Blast makes it harder to switch into cause it can use either STAB to revenge kill threats. Psychic STAB + Fire Blast is all Delphox really needs to threaten every single pokemon in the UU game except for Slowking. Meanwhile, special Infernape gets checked by a lot of common pokemon- Salamence, Gyarados, Chandelure, Dragalge- without running a specific coverage move for them. However Delphox gets past these threats easily with a 2HKO by Psychic. Delphox is a more threatening immediate attacker than Infernape because of both its higher SpA (114 vs 104), and its dual STABs. However, despite lacking Nasty Plot, Delphox is just as hard to wall with a fat special wall because of unique moves at its disposal. I am currently running a Specs Delphox on a balance team. Not only does it hit absurdly hard, all switch-ins to either STAB move are easily crippled by Trick. The fourth move I am running is Dazzling Gleam to hit Hydreigon. It has been working really well because it is so easy to spam your STAB moves with such few pokemon that can resist both. I also tried out LO + CM, who can break through stuff like Florges and not be revenge killed by any special attacker, though it gets worn down a bit too easily with LO damage. I'm sure Scarf is also viable- nice dual STABs, good power, and Trick. And also, for the people saying Delphox is outclassed by other Psychic-Types, you use it primarily for its Fire typing, not psychic typing. Meaning it can absorb wisp and break through a ton of steels or fat Dark pokemon they wouldn't usually be able to, such as Escav and Umbreon. Anyway by that same logic, special Infernape itself as well as all slower special attackers would be outclassed by Alakazam if typing wasn't a factor. Delphox also has decent special bulk and can take a few special hits that Ape can't, such as from Whimsicott or Florges. Overall, Delphox isn't the best pokemon in the metagame. It's weak to rocks, kind of hard to fit onto a team, and weak to faster pursuit users. However, I think it has enough for a C ranking.

End it out with some mediocre replays (I didn't save everything unfortunately. Had this nice game vs TSR where I crippled his Zapdos with Specs and had the possibility to OHKO 4 out of 6 mons on his team):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-362438604- could spam Specs Fire Blast freely, because the fire resist Dragalge, was scared of switching in
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-362446073- Was able to wear down Suicune by spamming STAB psychic

Dude, STAB Psychic is not enough to make Delphox worth using. Every other Fire type has so much more going for it. I can't watch your replays, but I guarantee that Infernape would have been able to just kill the Zapdos with +2 Fire Blast rather than "crippling it with Specs" (???). By the way, out of those Infernape checks you listed: Gyarados and Salamence get destroyed by +2 attacks after rocks, and Chandelure is destroyed by the most common Infernape partners. They all check Infernape but guess what, they also check Delphox too. Also Scarf Delphox? Have fun using a Scarfer weak to rocks, lacking Uturn, and that isn't even strong enough to kill shit like Mega Aero or Salamence after rocks. It's outperformed by every other scarf mon in every way.

At this point, the reason I respond with "just use Infernape" is because I simply don't want to write paragraphs for all the garbage that you and your friends nominate, like Stunfisk, Scyther, Floatzel, Mega Audino, Delphox, Tauros, Emboar, Charizard, Sigilyph....some of these multiple times after being directly rejected in the first place.

 

[Nightingales]

You know, I went and looked back over the mons and ran the calcs, and as dangerous as it really can be against certain teams that would otherwise stop Infernape, it doesn't do much. Yeah, it has trick, but other stuff can just hammer through with brute force. Besides, trick cripples once, and you're either lost without power or speed, neither of which are particularly good to lose. So I'm just going to retract my own nomination, though if other people want to by all means, go ahead.

E: said something not in good taste.

 

[Highways]

Delphox has it's own niche, but if you need a Special Specs / Scarf, Gardevoir is always better, with a Natural Coverage to Dark-Types, Trick and Healing Wish, and a overall better Movepool, and if you need a Special Fire-Type, you could run NP Infernape, how dodmen said. I changed my opinion :/

Talking about Zapdos and Cresselia, how everybody said, they're deserving a higher rank. Why did u didn't it now dodmen ;_;

 

[D Dancer]

You cant compare emboar to the trash that is charizard,tauros, floatzel and mega audino.

emboar is a very decent wallbreaker

 

[Hogg]

Can we please reserve this thread for talking about 'mons that are actually relevant to the metagame? I find it utterly ridiculous that your response to dod trying to move the discussion away from niche 'mons is to start an argument about Emboar.

 

[Take Azelfie]

C ---> C+/B-

Been using this quite a bit recently and it isn't bad in the slightest. It has an incredibly powerful Knock Off and Hammer which can desamate anything not resisted which is a really nice perk. Gunk Shot, with good prediction, can even be used to nuke Florges and the uncommon Aromatisse on the switch. It also has a special tool in Parting Shot which I have to say is absolutely fantastic. It is slow giving the incoming Pokemon a free switch and it has Memento properties without having to forfeit a team member. I have been using this on a team with CritDra and it gives my team a nice way to combat such Pokemon. It also can work really well with other Dragons since it is able to hit Fairies on the switch and this already mauls Steels. This makes it such more easier to just click Outrage.

 

[Hogg]

I find that the least pleasant thing in any given viability ranking, even more than people making bad posts about bad mons, is mods going like 'let's move it along'

if you have a substantial argument as to why emboar isn't really worth being ranked then fine, if you want the other side to make better posts then fine, but what is this ranking for if not discussing things that most people don't care that much about anyhow? either you take this seriously or you don't, right?

Except that this isn't actually a conversation about Emboar's relevancy to the UU tier or a petition to change its rank. This is someone getting their feelings hurt because dodmen lumped in a 'mon they like with a bunch of other overly niche 'mons. There has been no actual nomination to rank Emboar since it was dropped from the VR in the last major reorganization. Meanwhile there IS plenty to talk about otherwise, including the five recent changes to the VR, the seven or so proposed changes that have been brought up, and any new (and actually relevant) nominations.

So sorry you find it unpleasant but - let's move it along.

 

[EonX]

Cresselia: I can definitely get behind this. The bulk is incredibly good and she's able to beat most of the best Pokemon in the tier 1v1 with a CM + Moonlight 2 attacks set. (she can use Sub over Moonlight, but that healing is huge imo) Moonblast is probably the biggest move Cresselia gets, allowing her to pressure 2 of the best offensive Pokemon in the tier 1v1, Hydreigon (goodbye) and Salamence (needs a boost to kill, but Moonblast pressures it to where it can't reliably set up) Cress is at least a check to virtually any attacker that can't hit her for super effective damage and can use other sets outside of CM, such as a full-on supportive set with T-Wave to help wallbreakers and a Dual Screens Lunar Dance set to benefit offensive teams. She's one of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier and easily one of the top 3 defensive boosters in the tier (along with Suicune and Reuniclus) Very forgiving to use due to the high bulk Cress has and precise movepool she has. So yeah, raise to A-. Bulk is power. Bulk is real.

 

[DaSpoofy]

And if you really want a super niche garbage fire type you have Camerupt.

I really hate to nit pick your post, but I was shocked to hear this. Mega Camerupt has gotten a lot better with the last few months of drops. For one, Mega Camerupt can set up rocks on the tiers new favorite defogger, Zapdos, without risking anything besides a toxic. It also sets up rocks on fairy types which are more common than ever because of Hydreigon and Sableye. Speaking of Sableye, guess what pokemon does not get burnt, takes nothing from knock and foul play, and can deal heavy damage back? That's right; Mega Camerupt. I mean, look at this damage.
252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sableye: 262-309 (86.1 - 101.6%)
Zam dropping has also helped out Camerupt quite a bit, because Zam's counter(s) are countered by Mega Camerupt. Below is a modern showcased RMT that, I believe, reflects this current meta quite accurately. Let's see how Mega Camerupt matches up against it. Below is the set I will be using.

@

Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 236 HP / 252 SpA / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
Fire Blast
Earth Power
Stealth Rocks
Ancient Power

Camerupt-Mega
Beats 1v1: 3

Mega Sceptile, Doublade, Zapdos​

Counters: 2

Doublade, Zapdos​

Sets up Rocks: 3

Doublade, Zapdos, Florges​

2hkos: 5

Everything besides Florges​

Besides all the meta changes helping Camerupt out, there are still the obvious things that makes this mon great. Its a fire resist that sets up rocks. It discourages volt turn on both ends of the spectrum resisting u-turn and having immunity to electric attacks. Regular fairy, water, steel cores have trouble with Camerupt as their fire resists are 2hkoed by earth power. Camerupt is also a monster under TR if you happen to make a good tr team. I mean, considering all of this, the words "super niche garbage fire type" just don't seem to match up. By all means correct me if I'm wrong. I hope we have some discussion on this because I would love to see this thing rise to b- rank if possible. Just give it a chance.

 

[Mazz]

"Hey Pokemon X can 2HKO all of these threats, it's surprisingly good!"

No it isn't.

I don't like how hand-picked that evidence is; Swampert is never losing to a Mega Camerupt unless it switches in while severely unhealthy and will force Mega Camerupt out or will knock it out with an uninvested Scald. Any offensive Gyarados is only 2HKOed (after SR damage btw) if it switches in on one of those moves and immediately threatens it out with STAB Waterfall. Mega Sceptile and Doublade (if set up) are ripping massive chunks of HP away from Mega Camerupt before it even does anything (Doublade outspeeds by a healthy margin btw) and without any recovery, it's easy fodder for something else or it's forced out and is relegated to being sac'd somewhere else.

Outside of Shiba's team, take a look at the state of the metagame and justify using one of the slowest Fire-types in the game. Every team carries at least one Water-type, Mamoswine, Krookodile, Salamence, and Hydreigon have powerful attacks that are really going to put a hurt on Mega Camerupt. Alakazam cleanly 2HKOes it, Feraligatr and Crawdaunt slaughter it, most things it should be beating pack U-turn and won't stay in, Heracross forces it out, like there's no justification as to why Mega Camerupt should move up.

On paper it's great - it does 2HKO a lot of things. But so does Crawdaunt and look at how underwhelming it turned out to be. Crawdaunt at least has priority to make up for its lack of Speed, access to a very spammable Knock Off, and doesn't waste your Mega slot. Yes, Mega Camerupt is a powerful wallbreaker, but its ability to 2HKO a wide array of offensive and defensive threats is vastly overshadowed by its incredible lack of Speed and what using it takes away from your team: your Mega slot. Mega Camerupt is most likely C-Rank because it prevents you from running Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Swampert, Mega Blastoise, Mega Absol, etc. There are so many better Mega evolutions in UU that using Camerupt in that slot takes more away from your team than what it brings. Mega Camerupt is niche - it really only belongs on Trick Room teams where its Speed can be "patched up" and it can punch holes for its teammates.

Why would you ever want to use Mega Camerupt over the combination of Entei / NP Infernape and a different Mega Evolution? Unless you're absolutely strapped for teamslots I really don't see any use to it. In that sense, yeah it is pretty "garbage". It's outclassed by other Fire-types and uses up a unique teamslot that is 99.999% of the time better suited to more relevant threats.

 

[DaSpoofy]

"Hey Pokemon X can 2HKO all of these threats, it's surprisingly good!"

No it isn't.

I don't like how hand-picked that evidence is; Swampert is never losing to a Mega Camerupt unless it switches in while severely unhealthy and will force Mega Camerupt out or will knock it out with an uninvested Scald. Any offensive Gyarados is only 2HKOed (after SR damage btw) if it switches in on one of those moves and immediately threatens it out with STAB Waterfall. Mega Sceptile and Doublade (if set up) are ripping massive chunks of HP away from Mega Camerupt before it even does anything (Doublade outspeeds by a healthy margin btw) and without any recovery, it's easy fodder for something else or it's forced out and is relegated to being sac'd somewhere else.

Outside of Shiba's team, take a look at the state of the metagame and justify using one of the slowest Fire-types in the game. Every team carries at least one Water-type, Mamoswine, Krookodile, Salamence, and Hydreigon have powerful attacks that are really going to put a hurt on Mega Camerupt. Alakazam cleanly 2HKOes it, Feraligatr and Crawdaunt slaughter it, most things it should be beating pack U-turn and won't stay in, Heracross forces it out, like there's no justification as to why Mega Camerupt should move up.

On paper it's great - it does 2HKO a lot of things. But so does Crawdaunt and look at how underwhelming it turned out to be. Crawdaunt at least has priority to make up for its lack of Speed, access to a very spammable Knock Off, and doesn't waste your Mega slot. Yes, Mega Camerupt is a powerful wallbreaker, but its ability to 2HKO a wide array of offensive and defensive threats is vastly overshadowed by its incredible lack of Speed and what using it takes away from your team: your Mega slot. Mega Camerupt is most likely C-Rank because it prevents you from running Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Swampert, Mega Blastoise, Mega Absol, etc. There are so many better Mega evolutions in UU that using Camerupt in that slot takes more away from your team than what it brings. Mega Camerupt is niche - it really only belongs on Trick Room teams where its Speed can be "patched up" and it can punch holes for its teammates.

Oh come on man! You open up your counter argument with a statement that was never once said, let alone suggested, in my argument. My post is unedited. You can go back and see that I never once even suggested that "Hey Pokemon X can 2HKO all of these threats, it's surprisingly good!"

Maybe it's just me, but if I were to discredit a post, I would go back to the introductory paragraph and pull the thesis out to try to counter that. My thesis was the second sentence of my first paragraph. "Mega Camerupt has gotten a lot better with the last few months of drops."

Going on, you say that you don't like how handpicked the evidence is... bro. Its one of three, up to date, showcased UU RMTs. I picked Shiba's because it had a Zapdos on it and it fit well with what I was saying, but it also has TWO WATER TYPES. If I was going to handpick the evidence, I would have gotten a Zapdos team from a uu room regular and suggested that "this is what the UU metagame looks like," but I didn't do that, because then is would look to be handpicked. This isn't luck. Go on back to the SPL replays and look at all the balance teams, don't they look pretty similiar to Shibas? Yes, there are water types, and as I said before, they can't switch in without taking a hell of a lot of damage. I'm not saying they don't KO with their water moves. Water types are counters, but a team isn't going to have no answers for such pokemon. Also, I posted the set that I was using and 252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 204-240 (61.6 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Also fireblast does (41.9 - 49.5%) in case someone was wondering. I'm not hiding anything.

Really quick, going back to the first paragraph. You suggested that doublade (if set up) "are ripping massive chunks of HP away from Mega Camerupt." Well I was going off of Shiba's RMT which uses gyro ball doublade. A normal doublade, however does outspeed and sets up sd as I switch into it. Lets look at the damage, +2 252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Camerupt: 191-225 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Yeah, for one, thats a dead doublade. Two, I still have ~40% health to tank a few moonblast and prevent volt switch. Also here's the mega sceptile leaf storm damage. (63.9 - 75.8%). I still have enough hp to come in on zapdos. I don't consider it a waste of a mega slot if it at least gets one kill and sets up rocks.

Second Paragraph: "Pokemon do damage to Mega camerupt, therefore there's no justification as to why Mega Camerupt should move up..." K. I'm just ganna let that one speak for itself.

On the third paragraph you open up with that stupid ass statement that I never said. I simply put that it 2hkos 5 pokemon on Shibas team. You then compare this offensive stealth rocker to Crawdaunt... Look buddy, I don't care that it 2hkos a lot of things. What I care about, is that these drops are changing things for Mega Camerupt. I explained these in the first paragraph of my argument if you want to go back and look. "Don't use this mega because there are other megas," is also a bad argument in my opinion. Camerupt is not like any other mega let alone pokemon in this tier. It's unique and not outclassed.

"it really only belongs on Trick Room teams where its Speed can be "patched up" and it can punch holes for its teammates." Wtf? I just showed you how well it matches up against a showcased team with 2 water types on it, and you say this? I'm pretty convinced at this point that you skipped my first paragraph. Is this why people think Camerupt is only a C rank pokemon? Because its only good on TR teams... AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Mazz you are a cool guy, but I could't leave this untouched because its just wrong. Hikari already liked your post so I assume that means he agrees with it and if I don't say anything, my nom would be fruitless. Yes, Hikari, I'm tagging you because I want a good explanation.

Last Statement

Why would you ever want to use Mega Camerupt over the combination of Entei / NP Infernape and a different Mega Evolution? Unless you're absolutely strapped for teamslots I really don't see any use to it. In that sense, yeah it is pretty "garbage". It's outclassed by other Fire-types and uses up a unique teamslot that is 99.999% of the time better suited to more relevant threats.

The answer to your first question is: Camerupt is immune to electric attacks, Camerupt sets up rocks on the tiers most popular defogger, Camerupt does not take 25% from stealth rocks, Camerupt is taking advantage of the current meta, Camerupt can 2hko your fire resists. You end with this exaggerated made up statistic, that I hope no one believes. Look people, I'm not fighting for an A rank position. Camerupt is way better than the rest of the C+ ranked mons. All I want, is b-. It is more than fair. I'm not looking for a way to show up the TL or a badged user like Mazz. I just want this nom to be taken seriously and not be driven off my a misconcepted counter post.