Metagame ORAS/XY PU (Serperior Banned)

[Anty]

This is a terrible argument imo, very rarely have I ever seen Musharna use more than 5 PP on Moonlight, and a lot of the time the person overused Moonlight. It does not need all 8 PP to effectively do its job, the fact that it can take hits so well limits the amount of times that it has to actually use Moonlight. If its a super long drawn out battle or Stall Fest, than yes that 8 PP might come into play, but at that point in the game you are just PP stalling anyways lol. This line is no where near good enough to argue for a not ban imo.

Those are my thoughts on the non-ban points, feel free to refute them ^.^

The suspect is proving if a pokemon is broken rather than arguing if the pokemon is not not broken, especcially when you where only disagree with the 'worst' arguement. Yes i did nitpick. I will asses the pro-ban points (this isnt aimed directly at mont):

• It's such a good catch-all check to random Pokemon.

This doesn't really sound like a strong point, but i do see what it means and it is true that it has the ability to switch into a ton of pokemon. This isnt exactly only to musharna, poliwrath does that as well, whilst walling the two best offensive mons in the tier, sneasel and costa (don't nitpick about hp grass pls). I do realise musharna has moonlight which is much more reliable than rest-talk, but does only have 8 pp (hue). The amount it switches into is also healthy for meta, being a last ditch check to physical attackers that run the tier (it still dislikes to switch into many, as an example, tauros cant 2hko normally, you cant ignore factors such as hazards and previous damage. It also has to be careful switching in, if you try and get in on a poliwrath, you might be toxic'd, which could ruin a possible sweep. There are more examples, but in the end this point just suggests it is a good physical wall.

• Little can OHKO it, let alone 2HKO it.

Ill compare this to an anty-ban point:

• Most types of teams have at least Pokemon that can handle it, so it doesn't limit teambuilding.

Although the pro-ban point is correct, the anty-ban point kind of covers it; there are common ways to deal with it. Standard pokes can beat it. Yes, sneasel doesnt OHKO, but living hits are common traits of walls and mush wont always be at 100% also moves like swords dance can stop mush from trying to moonlight t1 to take the stronger hit. Yes, the sneasel player has to predict, but they have the offensive momentum and advantage. Other stuff like marowak can switch in, knock off can do about 70% then eq does a solid 50%, you are immune to thunder wave as well. Marowak is one of the best offensive stealth rocks so its not a rare mon.@ Galbia has already made a good point about it:
"Even if musharna is at full health every teamstyle has its ways of beating it with stall teams having Haze and Taunt users (and dark types LOL), balanced teams having all sorts of mid-late game sweepers that can beat it even if it is at +1 like Bouffalant, Sneasel, Scyther, Carracosta + Taunt Misdreavus/Subdisable Haunter+ Random phazers/status/whatever and offensive teams have offensive pressure from any kind of special attacker, entry hazards, and the setup sweepers above."

• Can set up pretty easily against most of the tier, and even pass the boosts.

I feel the setting up part is more the focus here, not only because baton pass is another point, but also because i feel its the main pro ban point. This is true, but i don't think mush does this to the extent that it is broken. Firstly, in the previous paragraph i have mentioned, and quoted galbia, about checks that fit into offensive teams. They pretty much have one of these (shoot me i generalised), but seriously, they are not hard to fit into a team in order to check mush. All teams should have checks to every threat, its fine replacing a mon on your team to another one who can check a top tier poke. Getting 6-0'd to musharna, just as getting 6-0'd by deddene, shows bad team building. (i also forgot to mention pokes which defence has to beat it. Not only do they have phaser, which stop BP and self sweeping, also pokes like Bastiodon flat out wall it)

• It's sheer versatility allows it to work for any kind of team. It fulfills so many roles its ridiculous. Some of the roles it fills can even stack on the same set.

I strongly disagree with this point. 'Versitily', it isn't hard to scout whether it has thunder wave or calm mind, its not like charizard who you sometimes have to sac a poke to scout if its mega-x or mega-y (don't nitpick this either, there are flaws in this comparison). It wont fit into any roll its so fat. Roles, hmm, they all are physically bulky, but the other roles are baton passer and sweeper. That doesn't really stack on the same set.

• Baton Pass alone allows it to do many things, from passing boosts, to pivoting into teammates, to escaping its checks and counters.

I don't think this is a very ban-able offence. Pivot'ing has always been good for walls to help punish switch ins, for example look at bw2 celebii, who ran baton pass just so it didn't get trapped by ttar. As a boost passer, i find togetic to be much more threatening, who also has enough opportunities to set up, but i'm much more afraid of a +2 spatk zebstrika than i am of a +1spa +1spdef zebstrika. Every mon can switch out of their checks and counters with a predicted double switch, you just have to be more careful

• It doesn't rely too much on its teammates or support to beat its checks and counters, and it has its own answers to them as well.

This is frankly not true. Your going to find it hard breaking through bastiodon/klang/wormadam-t, let a loan not getting revenge kill'd by pokemon such as marowak/sneasel. This is not true for any pokemon. I also don't think that needing team support should be held against it either.


I also feel like i have addressed the anty-ban points in my post. Although i went for a pretty anti approach there, the pro-ban arguments are legit and i can see why people think that it is broken, i just don't think the arguments are strong enough to justify a ban

 

[Ares]

Imma refute your points.

The suspect is proving if a pokemon is broken rather than arguing if the pokemon is not not broken, especcially when you where only disagree with the 'worst' arguement. Yes i did nitpick. I will asses the pro-ban points (this isnt aimed directly at mont):

Ummm, did you read the rest of my post? Cause I disagreed with more than just that one line that seems to be tacked on at the end of every anti-ban argument. Also I have clearly said in previous points why I believe Musharna was ban worthy, that post was directed at anti-ban arguments and my thoughts on them.

This doesn't really sound like a strong point, but i do see what it means and it is true that it has the ability to switch into a ton of pokemon. This isnt exactly only to musharna, poliwrath does that as well, whilst walling the two best offensive mons in the tier, sneasel and costa (don't nitpick about hp grass pls). I do realise musharna has moonlight which is much more reliable than rest-talk, but does only have 8 pp (hue). The amount it switches into is also healthy for meta, being a last ditch check to physical attackers that run the tier (it still dislikes to switch into many, as an example, tauros cant 2hko normally, you cant ignore factors such as hazards and previous damage. It also has to be careful switching in, if you try and get in on a poliwrath, you might be toxic'd, which could ruin a possible sweep. There are more examples, but in the end this point just suggests it is a good physical wall.

The point suggests that it is a physical wall that can wall the majority of the tier. Your point of that it is healthy for the meta to have something that switches into everything is misled imo. I want you to compare it to the Spiritomb NU meta and the current NU meta. Spiritomb was one of the best Pokemon in NU for the fact that it could check pretty much the entire tier in some way or another, once it left so many more Pokemon were given a chance to shine and the meta actually became more healthy after it left. I think the same could be said for Musharna, except I think Musharna is more ban worthy than tomb was, that once Musharna leaves the meta will be a lot healthier and give a lot more a chance to shine in PU.

Although the pro-ban point is correct, the anty-ban point kind of covers it; there are common ways to deal with it. Standard pokes can beat it. Yes, sneasel doesnt OHKO, but living hits are common traits of walls and mush wont always be at 100% also moves like swords dance can stop mush from trying to moonlight t1 to take the stronger hit. Yes, the sneasel player has to predict, but they have the offensive momentum and advantage. Other stuff like marowak can switch in, knock off can do about 70% then eq does a solid 50%, you are immune to thunder wave as well. Marowak is one of the best offensive stealth rocks so its not a rare mon.@ Galbia has already made a good point about it:
"Even if musharna is at full health every teamstyle has its ways of beating it with stall teams having Haze and Taunt users (and dark types LOL), balanced teams having all sorts of mid-late game sweepers that can beat it even if it is at +1 like Bouffalant, Sneasel, Scyther, Carracosta + Taunt Misdreavus/Subdisable Haunter+ Random phazers/status/whatever and offensive teams have offensive pressure from any kind of special attacker, entry hazards, and the setup sweepers above."

Your point that there is stuff that every team can deal with Musharna can be applied to any suspect Pokemon ever lol. There are ways to deal with Musharna, no one is denying that, but it requires the player facing Musharna to play a lot better than the person using Musharna which is saying something. Also I dont think Musharna limits teambuilding because there is so little that actually counters Musharna. There are things that check Musharna and those things are already good so they go on peoples teams regardless.

Also want to say that "play good and keep offensive pressure on it" isnt a good way check as it can be applied to any Pokemon and requires you to "git gud".

I feel the setting up part is more the focus here, not only because baton pass is another point, but also because i feel its the main pro ban point. This is true, but i don't think mush does this to the extent that it is broken. Firstly, in the previous paragraph i have mentioned, and quoted galbia, about checks that fit into offensive teams. They pretty much have one of these (shoot me i generalised), but seriously, they are not hard to fit into a team in order to check mush. All teams should have checks to every threat, its fine replacing a mon on your team to another one who can check a top tier poke. Getting 6-0'd to musharna, just as getting 6-0'd by deddene, shows bad team building. (i also forgot to mention pokes which defence has to beat it. Not only do they have phaser, which stop BP and self sweeping, also pokes like Bastiodon flat out wall it)

I don't think this is a very ban-able offence. Pivot'ing has always been good for walls to help punish switch ins, for example look at bw2 celebii, who ran baton pass just so it didn't get trapped by ttar. As a boost passer, i find togetic to be much more threatening, who also has enough opportunities to set up, but i'm much more afraid of a +2 spatk zebstrika than i am of a +1spa +1spdef zebstrika. Every mon can switch out of their checks and counters with a predicted double switch, you just have to be more careful

(I combined a point about baton pass later on, right here because it seemed to fit better) Okay, so you seem to really be underselling Baton Pass on Musharna to me. Musharna can have a Calm Mind sweeper set with Baton Pass on it and yet early game it can still function as a physical wall / pivot coming in and taking a hit and then Baton Passing on the switch. And then late game when its ready to sweep it can come in and start setting up boosts, it pretty much is having 2 roles filled on one Pokemon. You also say that you can double switch and its the same thing, that is very misleading. If you predict wrong on a double switch and the opponent attacks you then your switch in just took a ton of damage or was KOed, while if you predict wrong and Baton Pass out with Musharna on a Pokemon it walls its w/e it just took 20% more damage that it can heal off at a later point in the game and your new switch in didnt take any damage at all because of Musharna's slow Baton Pass. On to your point about Togetic, yes Togetic can boost a lot faster and pass +2 faster, however the fact that Musharna can set up on just about everything and get to +6 +6 makes that a little bit irrelevant in my eyes. Phasers are always nice, but what happens when you are facing the opponents last Pokemon? you can't do jack to it. (Also I'm pretty sure Bastiodon is the only true flat out wall, so implying there are other pokes like it is misleading).

I strongly disagree with this point. 'Versitily', it isn't hard to scout whether it has thunder wave or calm mind, its not like charizard who you sometimes have to sac a poke to scout if its mega-x or mega-y (don't nitpick this either, there are flaws in this comparison). It wont fit into any roll its so fat. Roles, hmm, they all are physically bulky, but the other roles are baton passer and sweeper. That doesn't really stack on the same set.

Like I said above it could be one set and play like another for the early game, and actually Baton Pass, CM, Psyshock, Moonlight all fits on to one set and means it can play as a sweeper, pivot, and passer all on one set lol, so yes it does kind of stack.

This is frankly not true. Your going to find it hard breaking through bastiodon/klang/wormadam-t, let a loan not getting revenge kill'd by pokemon such as marowak/sneasel. This is not true for any pokemon. I also don't think that needing team support should be held against it either.

Well while it may be hard to break through Bastiodon and friends (wormadam trash is pretty desperate fren), it can still break through them with the right set. Getting revenge killed is also a different story, Musharna can just switch out or live a hit and get massive damage on something. It does require a little team support to beat certain things, but it requires a significant amount less than any other Pokemon in the tier.


(I feel like my thoughts might of been a bit jumbled in this post so sorry if the readability is poor lol, also earlier on I feel like it might of come across as harsh, that was not the intention. Feel free to come back with counter arguments Anty)

 

[Anty]

Imma refute your points.

Ummm, did you read the rest of my post? Cause I disagreed with more than just that one line that seems to be tacked on at the end of every anti-ban argument. Also I have clearly said in previous points why I believe Musharna was ban worthy, that post was directed at anti-ban arguments and my thoughts on them.

You disagreed with 2, and your second disagreement i also didnt feel was right. You say 3-4 pokemon, bastiodon/klang/sneasel/scyther/bouff/missy. They seem like a bit more than 3-4 for (these arent all btw).

The point suggests that it is a physical wall that can wall the majority of the tier. Your point of that it is healthy for the meta to have something that switches into everything is misled imo. I want you to compare it to the Spiritomb NU meta and the current NU meta. Spiritomb was one of the best Pokemon in NU for the fact that it could check pretty much the entire tier in some way or another, once it left so many more Pokemon were given a chance to shine and the meta actually became more healthy after it left. I think the same could be said for Musharna, except I think Musharna is more ban worthy than tomb was, that once Musharna leaves the meta will be a lot healthier and give a lot more a chance to shine in PU.

You kinda stretched my words a bit there. I said it can switch in, but it doesnt have to because it will get warn down to the point in which it can switch in. Not that it walls half the tier. I cant really say much more here, but i dont think that is a reason to ban (if you were implying that it is). Not only do you have no evidence that this is true, but the pokemon who get better will be the ones who are in the shadow of mush, like beheeyum, who is good anyway. Its not exactly a strong point 'ban x because y and z get better'.

(I combined a point about baton pass later on, right here because it seemed to fit better) Okay, so you seem to really be underselling Baton Pass on Musharna to me. Musharna can have a Calm Mind sweeper set with Baton Pass on it and yet early game it can still function as a physical wall / pivot coming in and taking a hit and then Baton Passing on the switch. And then late game when its ready to sweep it can come in and start setting up boosts, it pretty much is having 2 roles filled on one Pokemon. You also say that you can double switch and its the same thing, that is very misleading. If you predict wrong on a double switch and the opponent attacks you then your switch in just took a ton of damage or was KOed, while if you predict wrong and Baton Pass out with Musharna on a Pokemon it walls its w/e it just took 20% more damage that it can heal off at a later point in the game and your new switch in didnt take any damage at all because of Musharna's slow Baton Pass. On to your point about Togetic, yes Togetic can boost a lot faster and pass +2 faster, however the fact that Musharna can set up on just about everything and get to +6 +6 makes that a little bit irrelevant in my eyes. Phasers are always nice, but what happens when you are facing the opponents last Pokemon? you can't do jack to it. (Also I'm pretty sure Bastiodon is the only true flat out wall, so implying there are other pokes like it is misleading).

It can do all of those things yes, and so can baton pass roost beedrill but it is never going to happen. You simply lose the ability to punish switch ins who dislike thunder wave, or even a certain coverage move. Your not exactly going to give musharna time to boost a lot are you? If you have a defensive roselia (as an example)out, your not going to stay in fishing for a crit you will switch out into something who can deal with mush, either preventing it from passing more than one boosts or you will just roar it out. I also feel i wrote the double switching part badly so i can understand why you dont get my point. I was saying how baton pass pivoting is not broken, as if you look at the original point, it mentions how baton pass lets it evade its checks and counters, but double switching on obvious predictions also does that (im talking about other pokemon not just mush. Predicting is a thing with every pokemon, although you rely less by BP'ing with mush, it still doesnt make it broken). Mush isnt going to be sweeping with one coverage lol, any resist can keep it in check for a long time not to mention (if your aiming this point at defensive teams, the ones who have phasers) that defensive teams have things like haze to stop this or even toxic. Last poke sweepers are always a pain for stall to beat and they exist in every tier pretty much, if its curse lax or cm clef.

Like I said above it could be one set and play like another for the early game, and actually Baton Pass, CM, Psyshock, Moonlight all fits on to one set and means it can play as a sweeper, pivot, and passer all on one set lol, so yes it does kind of stack.

How can it do all of these in one set. Good luck in sweeping a team with mono coverage which doesnt affect the best attacker in the tier. Also there are other pokes which beat it anyway and have a ride in the park when its lacking twave or another coverage.

Well while it may be hard to break through Bastiodon and friends (wormadam trash is pretty desperate fren), it can still break through them with the right set. Getting revenge killed is also a different story, Musharna can just switch out or live a hit and get massive damage on something. It does require a little team support to beat certain things, but it requires a significant amount less than any other Pokemon in the tier.

I dont feel like there is anything to debate here, you again miss my point. You are not breaking through the pokes mentioned and trying to undermine me doesnt do anything either. All pokemon need team support, this doesnt make it any more or less broken.

I think we are both under/over hyping it slightly ngl and i really dont want this thread to turn into us just arguing tbh

 

[yikes]

Everyone a little while ago: "BAN MUSHARNA!"
Everyone now: "Maybe ban Musharna."
Everyone in the future: "DON'T BAN MUSHARNA!"
Me now: "MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MINDS!"

 

[BadPandaPancham]

So we have just 3 days left before we decide on new additions to the PU Council (both permanent and rotating) who will VOTE, so if you have stuff you want to say about Musharna, please post it ASAP. Remember, you don't get on Council JUST by talking about the Musharna suspect, but by participating in general discussion with good, well-thought out posts about the PU tier and being a good presence in #pu and/or the PU Room on Pokemon Showdown!

I've gone through the arguments and have compiled the best arguments for both side of the spectrum (as well as added some my own). Why did I bother, you may ask? I want everyone to LOOK AT ALL SIDES OF THE ISSUES before you cast your judgement. I know that many of you have your decisions set in stone already, but bans should not be taken lightly. Before we decide on anything, please try arguing for the other side of the spectrum; you might be surprised at what you can find. There are likely more arguments that can be added, so keep the discussion coming.

Pro Ban:

• It's such a good catch-all check to random Pokemon.
• Little can OHKO it, let alone 2HKO it.
• Can set up pretty easily against most of the tier, and even pass the boosts.
• It's sheer versatility allows it to work for any kind of team. It fulfills so many roles its ridiculous. Some of the roles it fills can even stack on the same set.
• Baton Pass alone allows it to do many things, from passing boosts, to pivoting into teammates, to escaping its checks and counters.
• It doesn't rely too much on its teammates or support to beat its checks and counters, and it has its own answers to them as well.

Anti Ban:

• Most types of teams have at least Pokemon that can handle it, so it doesn't limit teambuilding.
• Not overcentralizing to the point where people run Pokemon that can only check/counter Musharna with no other purpose.
• Each of Musharna's sets can be checked by common Pokemon, and some even countered. Once you know its set, you know how to handle it (plus it helps that very few of Musharna's sets have immediate offensive power).
• Vulnerable to being worn down, so it relies a lot on Moonlight, which has limited PP.

You see the opposing points, so counter them if you are able. Remember, it's not the number of points/arguments, but the quality of them.

As I said in an earlier post, Musharna isn't outright broken. However, for what it does and how well you can play it (since most teams usually only have 1 or 2 checks/counters) you can easily remove a threat and remain an impenetrable Pokémon. It's also a really versatile mon. On the point

• Each of Musharna's sets can be checked by common Pokemon, and some even countered. Once you know its set, you know how to handle it (plus it helps that very few of Musharna's sets have immediate offensive power).

I don't exactly see that as big enough to take up a point. Not only will you have to have Mush out and play around it trying to predict it's set, as Mushy doesn't just come in turn 1. This also could easily give your team an advantage. Also, the list of viable/useful checks/counters is not that big at all, compared to great walls like Avalugg who still have quite a number of checks and counters

• Vulnerable to being worn down, so it relies a lot on Moonlight, which has limited PP.

Yes, it sdoes get whitled down since it's speed is bad so even when it sets up it will take hits, but I'm not sure how many people have run out of Moonlight PP with Mushy, because I haven't and I have played quite a few games with Mushy in order to take my stance on the test. It is most of the time a win condition. I fully agree with the first two antiban points as Musharna is checked by a number of decently common Pokémon, and hasn't been very over centralizing at all. A lot of it's checks do run other purposes on the team other than being there solely for Musharna. While I believe Musharna is still more ban worthy than not, there are some problems with the proban points.

• It's such a good catch-all check to random Pokemon.

This is true, but that's such a broad range that at the same time it's sort of inaccurate, assuming the opponent is using viable Pokémon of course. However, it is true that it can switch in and deal with so many common pokes that aren't the respective checks, and even a pivot Baton Pass is extremely good when your opponent still has a check/counter as it allows you to send in a mon to deal with them for free, or to deal with whatever mon they sent out/have out.

• Most types of teams have at least Pokemon that can handle it, so it doesn't limit teambuilding.

This is fairly true. Some of the more common Pokemon in PU are checks to Musharna. This includes mons like Scyther, Missy, Bastiodon, etc etc. They aren't run just for Musharna, they have a ton of other different uses and are overall great mons outside of being able to act as a check to Mushy, which only makes them better. So yes, for this I can say most of the time it does not limit teambuilding, but usually teams built always include some sort of answer to Musharna.

• Not overcentralizing to the point where people run Pokemon that can only check/counter Musharna with no other purpose.

I agree with this, it definitely is not overcentralizing, but that does not mean that it isn't too good for the tier and thus ban worthy. My response to this is the same as the response above. It's a true and valid response. Some pokemon people run like Zweilous though, are just there for Mush. That doesn't count the fact that there are a fair amount of already great checks to Musharna, but extremely little counters.

• It doesn't rely too much on its teammates or support to beat its checks and counters, and it has its own answers to them as well.

This really isn't all that true. While I support the proban, it does rely on a fair amount of team synergy and help to be able to successfully do whatever it wants to do such as set up and pass CM boosts, which it won't be able to do if a Scyther is sitting in the back waiting to get in on some Musharna action. It needs help to deal with its checks and counters definitely. Assuming a Mush is set up, it can deal with some of its checks such as Missy, but really it does need help for it as it doesn't really have answers unless you sacrifice a set move on Mushy (4MSS) and just scrap the fact that it has a highly diverse movepool and fills the role of multiple team members.

Looking at some of the points, I can see that there are more points on the side of the pro ban then the anti ban. Some points could be removed on both sides. I feel as if the last pro ban point should be removed, and on the anti ban list the Moonlight PP argument should be removed. I'm a bit skeptical about keeping the second last point on there too, but I can see how it's a more valid than most argument. I'd urge you to consider the fact that the pro-ban arguments point out how flexible and versatile Musharna is while acting as a great support, a great set-up sweeper (by sweeping itself or passing the boosts), and an amazing wall in general due to its great bulk. It checks most of the entire tier while being checked by only a small percentage, even if they are fairly common pokes. You also have to make sure you keep those checks alive and well to take on Musharna, as most aren't nearly as bulky and durable as Mushy. I do believe overall it is something to be seen as too good for the tier and is broken by a big enough majority to warrant a ban. I do not feel like it is over-centralizing though.

Feel free to criticize this post as I doubt everyone 100% agrees with me, or that I didn't make a slip-up or a poorly justified argument somewhere. Or just reply with something I could have added for one of the sides of the discussion (pro-ban or anti-ban).

 

[Ary]

Everyone a little while ago: "BAN MUSHARNA!"
Everyone now: "Maybe ban Musharna."
Everyone in the future: "DON'T BAN MUSHARNA!"
Me now: "MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MINDS!"

That's what is known as "bandwagoning" it's what people do when their initial opinion is uniformed or nonexistent and just parrot whoever they think seems the smartest.

 

[Dundies]

Just gonna make this short and sweet: the only true counters to Musharna are dark types and some pokemon who just hit like trucks.

 

[canno]

That's what is known as "bandwagoning" it's what people do when their initial opinion is uniformed or nonexistent and just parrot whoever they think seems the smartest.

more like banwagoning am i rite

 

[WildHope]

Some things than i need to say, but i doesnt have much time.

Bastiodon is a bad mon in this meta, is pasive as hell and more than half tier can break him, if we ban musha, we can check chatot with something better.
I does not want to use trash like wormadam only for Musha.
Misdreavus and Haunter are bad checks to musha, sub disable haunter can be countered with BP alone and Misdre cannot switch into CM.
I already talk enough about Scy and Snes.
Marowak must be the best answer for Musha.
For me is hard to take into acount Klang, because him was non-exist before the suspect, and even when i believe than is a good mon, is not a think than fit into every team.
Musha isnt supposed to sweep, she is broken because is a mon than does not need support to work and at the same time gives huge support. If you try to check musha with Klang or any other random steel than isnt Bast, i can just BP to something like Heatmor and have a full health mon than can be at +1 (if you try to switch into the CM) and i not only gain free momentum (you cannot even predict me, if you try, i BP to something else, no skill needed), but now i have good chance to make a hole in your team, because how easily is to make team around musha checks without even taking them into acount. You dont need to break Worm-T or Klang with musha, just BP to something than can make them run.


I does not like Musha right now, i feel than she is a brainless mon than isnt giving anything to the tier.

 

[Magnemite]

To me, the biggest question to ask with Musharna isn't whether or not it's broken (debatable, but I'm still leaning towards yes), but whether or not Musharna has a good influence on the PU metagame on top of that. The answer to this question is a resounding no. Musharna has very few viable checks, let alone counters, walls a ridiculous amount of the tier to the point where just slapping Musharna on a team will almost always make it better, and can easily cripple the few checks it has and just baton pass out unharmed. This makes teambuilding for it quite difficult and means that even when you do prepare for it it will still give you a ton of trouble. Having a Pokemon that you can just slap on any team and be covered for 75% of the meta all while having the best pivot or bulky sweeper in the tier just isn't healthy for any metagame, and PU isn't an exception. While Musharna isn't the most outright broken Pokemon ever, PU would be a far better tier without it, so it is more than banworthy in my eyes.

 

[WhiteDMist]

Update

OK, so it's been 2 weeks since this suspect period for Musharna has begun. We've discussed both sides of the issue, so now it's time for the Council to vote. I'm glad to announce that we have some new members as well! We are adding Montsegur to the PU Council, and we will also have a small Rotating Council. This Rotating Council will change every suspect test, and those members are very likely to become permanent members as well. Welcome Anty , The Leprechaun , and WildHope to the Rotating Council!

The voting process will be simple. Each Council member will have to PM me their vote with a short paragraph explaining their reasoning. They have 48 hours from this post to send me their votes.

 

[Anty]

Something that i have been noticing recently is that sand is getting popular. Sand is a very effective playstyle as Choice Band Stoutland is an amazing wall breaker and, with speed, can tear apart offense.


Looking at teams (from the sample teams forum) they are somewhat similar:

galbia's HO

Montsegur's Mixed

Sand teams are build to allow stoutland to ware down teams or sweep. This is obviously done with hippo, who sets sand, also stealth rocks. Interestingly, they both chose spikes stacking, as it allows stoutland to turn 2HKOs into OHKOs. You can see the split between HO vs Mixed as Galbia chose a suicide lead, Glalie, whilst monte uses a more survivable Pokemon, Garbodor. Note that when building a sand team, hazards are crucial:
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tauros: 255-301 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 225-265 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Lickilicky: 398-470 (93.8 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg: 112-133 (28.4 - 33.8%) -- 48.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, Leftovers recovery, and poison damage (every bit of chip damage helps in someway or another, ty monte for this calc)
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Avalugg: 144-169 (36.6 - 43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery

The teams are somewhat split then. It is hard to compare the next two members, as Galbia went for a way to block hazard control + a fellow wall breaker, whilst Monte chose hazard control + another wall. They both include a way to deal with set up sweepers (d bond Haunter and Dragon Tail Lickilicky respectively) and they both try to ware the opposing team down (Wallbreaker and hazard phazing + toxic respectively). Lastly they both chose a win condition, Serperior, who appreciates the opposing team being weakened, while also beating pesky rock types that annoy Stoutland and using some of stoutlands checks as set up fodder (gourgeist, carbink, tangela). These two teams do a great job at supporting stoutland and outlining sand as a whole

 

[FutureCat24]

Musharna with wish/heal beal/healing wish/yawn/trickroom and baton pass out of every situation is really frustrating and paired with a physically defensive wall with u-turn like vespiqueen it's a little too op. On my side (the battler), I find when i use musharna it takes away from my battling experience as it can basically switch out of anything that counters it and provides so much bulk (I say it's kinda like the weezing of pu,yes i say weezing because with stockpile... never mind that this is pu tier). Finally, Musharna really makes battling too easy, me as a competitive battler I like a good challenge.
I propose that we ban wish and baton pass being together in a team maybe with some other moves with baton pass.

 

[ryan]

js I told you fucks that Musharna broken and Sneasel wasn't.

 

[QueenOfLuvdiscs]

Musharna with wish/heal beal/healing wish/yawn/trickroom and baton pass out of every situation is really frustrating and paired with a physically defensive wall with u-turn like vespiqueen it's a little too op. On my side (the battler), I find when i use musharna it takes away from my battling experience as it can basically switch out of anything that counters it and provides so much bulk (I say it's kinda like the weezing of pu,yes i say weezing because with stockpile... never mind that this is pu tier). Finally, Musharna really makes battling too easy, me as a competitive battler I like a good challenge.
I propose that we ban wish and baton pass being together in a team maybe with some other moves with baton pass.

iplaytennislol and I feel sad about your proposal :[

 

[Magnemite]

js I told you fucks that Musharna broken and Sneasel wasn't.

While I still think Sneasel is kinda stupid, I do admit that part of why we thought it was so broken was because at that time the metagame was rather undeveloped because there wasn't a ladder and our playerbase was basically just the council and a few other people (at least when I first brought it up). The biggest reason why Sneasel was so much worse in that metagame is that at that we couldn't really play enough battles to try out more niche answers like Prinplup or Carbink (also, at that time like no one used Throh at all), so our perceptions of its pool of good checks and counters was a bit off.

 

[WhiteDMist]

UPDATE

Montsegur: Ban
WildHope: Ban
TRC: Ban
Anty: Do Not Ban
The Leprechaun: Do Not Ban
Peef Rimgar: Ban
Magnemite: Ban
galbia: Do Not Ban
scorpdestroyer: Do Not Ban (Abstain)
Robert Alfons: Ban
Detective Dell: Abstain (Do Not Ban)
WhiteDMist: Ban

7-5 in favor of a ban. It was a close one guys (you have no idea how close it was to being a tie). But in the end, Musharna is banned. I may post the explanations at a late time.

BL4

 

[Dell]

Here we have the council explanations surrounding Musharna's ban:
Montsegur: Ban

Hide

After having played with and against Musharna in PU for quite a while it has been apparent that it needs to go for a number of reasons. Chief among those reasons is the fact that there are very few Pokemon that can actually OHKO and 2HKO Musharna, this wouldn't be a problem normally; however, Musharna has access to reliable recovery in the form of Moonlight. This means that any damage Musharna receives throughout a match can just be healed off. The next reason is that Musharna has access to Baton Pass, and in combination with great defenses this allows Musharna to fulfill multiple roles on the same set. For instance if Musharna is running a set of Moonlight / Calm Mind / Psyshock / Baton Pass, it can come in early-game and play the role of a pivot checking physical Pokemon and using a slow Baton Pass to pivot into an appropriate check / counter, if it gets low on health it can always use Moonlight instead of Baton Pass. After any check to Musharna is sufficiently weakened Musharna can set up Calm Minds and then either sweep with Psyshock or can pass out any boosts it has gained to a teammate. With the same set Musharna can set up on over 85% of the meta, with its great defense and boosts to special defense with Calm Mind it is bulky enough to survive multiple hits. Any checks that Musharna has, it has a way to beat: Signal Beam can beat other Musharnas and Dark-types, Thunder Wave to cripple any offensive threats that can check it, and Musharna can always Baton Pass out into something to take advantage of any check. The only hard counter that the meta has seemed to come up with is Bastiodon, which cannot be run on any offensive teams and struggles to find a slot on balance teams. While its checks may be viable, and can be slapped on any team, there are so few of them that it becomes redundant. Since there are so few things that check Musharna, it makes it difficult to teambuild around, most teams just end up going with offensive pressure and good playing as a way to beat Musharna. I think I summed up most of my thoughts and reasoning behind why I believe Musharna should be banned (probably missed a few points). I believe that the meta overall will be much healthier if Musharna is banned from PU.

WildHope: Ban

Hide

She is an easy to use brainless mon, fit in any team of any playstyle, have some good checks but only a few can stop her true work, give support, i does not thing than she is a good sweeper, she is broken because of the support than she can give. CM Pass can choose between sweep by herself or give the boost to something better. She have some trouble with Roar-Toxic Bastiodon, or not, if you use something like Sub/Taunt SP Mr.Mime who is one of many mons than can take advantage of most Musha checks. The Pivot set can destroy many offensive threats who are supposed to check the CMPass set, like Sneasel and Scyther with just TW, and Marowak can be 2HKO by unboosted Psychic; Syncronize, meanwhile make she inmune to Toxic in most cases, useless if we talk about some of the few viable Steel-Types in the tier. And her slow BP can gives free momentum in any moment, macking impossible to double switch, and thanks to that some frail mons like Sneasel can enter without the need of prediction.

TRC: Ban

Hide

musharna isn't outwardly immediately offensively potent, leading it to be skimmed over earlier in pu among thoughts of potential suspects at the time, which were mainly limited to sneasel and barbaracle. opinions on the latter changed almost immediately, while in time the former was realised to be less offensively godly as was initially thought due to its frailty and that it basically lost to most bulky pokemon with any offensive presence. musharna is on a whole other level to the other pokemon in the tier. its bulk is tremendous, and no one is denying that. no one is also denying that there lacks pokemon in the tier that can do much damage to it, due to the rarity of dark-types, the overall weak-ness of ghost-types, and the lack of viable bug-types barring the obvious scyther and a few other nicher ones. what troubles these pokemon is that they are usually offensive and frail and are typically crippled by thunder wave or take a lot of damage from psychic (see scyther, haunter). the dark-types are better answers but that's basically sneasel and zweilous. sneasel doesn't even ko and can be stalled out of lo recoil with moonlight. musharna just has the general bulk to be an unpleasant pain to play against because you basically have to rely on stalling it out of moonlight's 8 pp while it thunder waves you and then psychics you to death (talking about general attackers here). its spread can be optimised to take on at least 75% of the tier. this is just the defensive pivot, the calm mind set is an extremely threatening sweeper on its own that can become impossible to break, and the calm mind + baton pass set is ridiculous due to musharna's own bulk, which allows easy passes to some of the most threatening special attackers in the tier including ninetales, simipour, and mr. mime. not to mention that typical non-offensive ways of dealing with musharna are either obvious and can be played around (trick, encore), or can be alleviated thanks to musharna's own movepool (toxic via heal bell). musharna's presence is limiting on the tier because the tier simply isn't equipped to handle it, so i am voting ban.

Anty: Do Not Ban

Hide

Musharna is not broken as the metagame has developed about in a way it is not broken. Teams are prepared for musharna, in the same way they are prepared for every (viable) mon in the tier, wether it is something as simple as toxic on avalugg dragon tail lickilicky, or something that punishes mush like Klang, or even a heavy hitter like marowak. Keep in mind those examples are just switch ins to musharna and they arent the only ones that can beat it. Another thing i keep hearing is that musharna can set up most of the meta. Realistically this is not the case. Common Pokemon do have ways to stop, whether passive ways or offensive pressure. There are plenty of ways to do this, whether its encore, with chatot and mr mime, pressure via boosting/power, like huntail and flareon, or just toxic/phasing, from piloswine/any defensive mon (not to menton taunt, haze, etc). These ways are mainly for calm mind sets (which is viewed to be the most 'broken' set), but some still beat defensive sets (or things like offensive hazards, stall can still toxic stall). I also haven't covered much on over centralisation; but all these mons/moves are completely viable with or without mush. Mush doesnt limit a team differently than any big threat does. I understand this is fairly focused but its on a very valid point.

The Leprechaun: Do Not Ban

Hide

I just feel that there are enough checks that are not only viable outside of beating musharna, but are really good in their own right. The idea that it's only checkable by dark types and other hard hitters is completely false and i outlined this in my main post in the thread. I was on the fence about the fact that musharna can always pivot out, predicting its checks to come in but this is not 100% reliable and shows that it can't function consistently without team support.

Peef Rimgar: Ban

Hide

Musharna needs to go, to put it frankly. While there exist many checks to it that do have competitive merit besides checking it, none of these checks can actually take it down without it doing something. Mushy can basically be thrown on any team as a last-hope check to so many offensive Pokemon and the ones it supposedly doesn't wall still fail to even 2HKO. I feel that the metagame will be much more fun and balanced without Mushy.

Magnemite: Ban

Hide

While it does posess several decent checks, doesn't hit that hard initially, and has trouble against things like toxic spikes, Musharna is simply too good for PU. It has no counters, and its few offensive checks risk a ton by switching in and don't even beat it one on one anyway. Musharna walls a huge portion of the tier, and while it doesn't make anything outright unviable, the sheer amount of Pokemon that Musharna can wall is just absurd. This wouldn't be as big of a deal if it wasn't for what Musharna can do in return to what it walls. Late-game, it's almost impossible to prevent the Calm Mind set from sweeping because it just doesn't die. Pivot sets give offensive teams a great switch-in for half the tier that can also bait in and cripple huge threats such as Sneasel, give momentum or pass boosts with Baton Pass, and just in general stick around forever. All of these traits make Musharna terribly unhealthy for the PU tier, which is why I am voting to ban Musharna.

galbia: Do Not Ban

Hide

Musharna is one of the strongest forces in the metagame as it has a lot of qualities. First of all is very very bulky, it can set up and win games by itself with Calm Mind (+Baton Pass) against unprepared teams.
It also has some flaws that can't be overlooked in its slowness, the fact that it is not strong without many boosts (also has bad coverage), and its vulnerability to offensive pressure and entry hazards because of its bad recovery move.
In reality, in an actual battle scenario Musharna is actually pretty simple to deal with as long as you prepare for it (and you should, as it is a top tier threat like Sneasel or Carracosta). Every team archetype has numerous ways to beat it with either setup sweepers, Taunt users or simply Dark-types and offensive pressure in general + Musharna is outsped by everything + entry hazards in this Spikes centered meta make it pretty easy to beat it even for Pokemon that are "mathematically" walled. Musharna is just a Pokemon capable of taking many hits and it is probably the best pivot (or Pokemon arguably) in the metagame and i don't think it makes PU less fun or that it is impossible to deal with. DO NOT BAN

scorpdestroyer: Do Not Ban

Hide

I'm a little on the fence on this one, so I'm voting dnb. The reason why it could be not broken is that it's not difficult to wear down with constant pressure or multiple layers of hazards and if it wants to keep coming in to check stuff and slow bp out or do whatever it does, it needs to play carefully.

Robert Alfons: Ban

Hide

Musharna's huge bulk and versatility make it a top tier threat on its own, but what really pushes it over the edge for me is how easily it covers up multiple roles on a team and basically is too good to pass up a lot of the time. Being able to wall a huge part of the meta while also being a setup sweeper that's incredibly hard to stop and only has one or two hard counters is ridiculous, it does not encourage good teambuilding and forces every team to carry at least two things that can 2HKO it or can beat it 1v1 (which is hard to do). Basically, it restricting the meta and basically being an easy way out for anyone to cover for a huge amount of top tier threats by simply slapping a Mushy on your team makes it too much to handle, and therefore I vote ban.

Detective Dell: Abstain (Do Not Ban)


WhiteDMist: Ban

Hide

This was a tough choice. The opposing arguments were on my mind because normally, these arguments would have been enough to make Musharna not banworthy. The main problems were that Musharna was not overcentralizing nor was it a strain on teambuilding. It wasn't overpowered, but it was versatile in terms of sheer options for both offense and support. What brought me to decide on Ban was the fact that Musharna was the fact that its Calm Mind Baton Pass set was so effective. Even mediocre Pokemon would benefit from being passed a Calm Mind or two, and the great Pokemon would just become so difficult (not impossible) to deal with. Another notable problem was the fact that it has so many options to support its team (physical wall and pivot, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, Toxic, Yawn) and/or go on the offensive (Calm Mind, Trick Room, Choice Specs); even worse, it is GOOD at ALL OF these roles. The sheer lack of opportunity cost for using Musharna on most types of teams is the main point that sways me over to vote BAN.

When I approached the suspect in question, I've never actually considered its versatility alone enough to really push for a ban. In fact, my abstaining stance has more to do with the fact that I believed that not enough ways to respond to it have been explored thus far. After various discussion from both sides, I can see advanced players adapting and changing their strategies to handle Musharna, given that certain playstyles were already capable of mitigating its effectiveness (Bastiodon stall, hazard offense, various weather offensive teams, etc.). The primary reason I would have considered voting for a ban is because of its very low opportunity cost; There was almost no reason to use it, and its presence encouraged bad (more accurately, careless) play by functioning as an extremely reliable and versatile pivot against the majority of the tier.

In regards to the decision made, this was a very close call indeed, and for a long time coming, this was a 50-50 in terms of an overall stance within the council. The main reasoning about this is because when you consider the arguments in opposition of Musharna's being banned, you'll realize that precedence has oftentimes established that such arguments would justify a Pokemon not being broken. Ultimately, as said before, it's overall versatility and sheer lack of opportunity cost were the primary reasons.

For now, I'm interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on what the metagame will look like without Musharna being around. How do you guys think that Pokemon that it was best known to check (Poliwrath, Tauros, Avalugg) would perform without it? Do you think that this ban would give certain playstyles more room to grow and prosper? Will this indirectly cause a nerf to threats that were viable largely because of their ability to check Musharna (various Steel-types)? Let us know what you're thinking.

Needless to say, this was a very controversial decision, and everyone's input on the matter is very much appreciated. Musharna's ban will be live on Showdown as soon as possible!

 

[Magnemite]

As I said in my vote paragraph, I don't think Musharna made much of anything unviable, it just turned them into liabilities in a lot of cases. However, two Pokemon in particular that were amazing before that are even better now are Poliwrath and Tauros. Whereas previously Sub-Punch Poliwrath was completely and utterly walled by Musharna, it now only really has Gourgeist to contend with, which doesn't like Toxic at all. Defensive sets will also improve, and the fact that Poliwrath is by far the best response to the two best Pokemon in the tier will make it even more of a defining force in the PU metagame. Meanwhile, Choice Scarf Tauros no longer has to worry about being walled by a very common Pokemon on non-hyper offense teams, making it very hard to deal with for all offensive teams lacking Misdreavus or Gourgeist-S. Life Orb Tauros will also be a huge threat to defensively-oriented teams for obvious reasons. Outside of defensive Misdreavus and random physically defensive Rock-types, not much can wall LO Tauros. Additionally, Pokemon that were a complete liability against Musharna, including Piloswine, Golem, and basically every other physical attacker lacking Knock Off are all more effective in general.

Other Psychic-types also hugely appreciate Musharna's absence. OTR and Specs Beheeyem now have quite a decent niche, and Pokemon such as Grumpig actually have a use now.

Bastiodon is really the only think that takes a huge hit with Musharna gone. While previously its absurd passive-ness could be excused because of the fact that it was the best counter to Musharna in the tier, its only major advantage over other defensive threats now is its ability to counter Chatot.

In general, I really look forward to playing PU without Musharna, as it is a very balanced and fun metagame. Well, at least until the week or so we'll have with all the ridiculous megas lol.

 

[Karane]

What's a reliable spin blocker in PU? using HO right now and I am finding missy garbage.

 

[trc]

Haunter works on HO, though it can sometimes be a bit frail, which is why I prefer Misdreavus on offense when I aim just to spinblock.

 

[Magnemite]

missy is not garbage :[

anyway one pokemon that i've wanted to try since musharna was banned is Beheeyem. At first I wasn't sure what to think about it, but when I built a team around it, it did really well in some battles but not too much in some others. the set i've been using:

Beheeyem (F) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Analytic
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Thunderbolt
- Signal Beam
- Trick

I could post a long list of calcs, but I only think I need to post two:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Camerupt: 385-454 (111.9 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (has a chance to OHKO without Analytic)

252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: 228-268 (53.7 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So yeah, this thing is the definition of a nuke. Previously, I would have rather used Specs Musharna because while it was weaker, it was ridiculously bulky, which brings me to why Beheeyem hasn't impressed me as much as these calcs would suggest. Beheeyem finds it very difficult to switch in on much of anything without being 2HKOed or close to it. It's also very slow (heck, it relies on being slow), so it can really struggle against a lot of teams. The moves on this set other than Psychic and Signal Beam aren't really that necessary, as you already 2HKO the premier special wall of the tier even without Stealth Rock (I guess you could get two low rolls and they could protect to get a bit of lefties but ehhh) so Trick isn't very useful. The only reason I even have Thunderbolt is because it was on the gen 5 NU analysis lol, it doesn't really hit anything that isn't already hit hard by Psychic. It can also run an OTR set which seems pretty decent, but I've only used specs. So while Beheeyem isn't that amazing, it's still pretty good, and it's something that should become a bit more popular in the post-Musharna metagame.

Also: Don't forget about the PU room on Pokemon Showdown or #pu on IRC! If you want to discuss PU with other players in real time, these two rooms are the best places to go!

 

[scorpdestroyer]

Togetic @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Defog / Fire Blast
- Roost

NastyPass Togetic is quite underrated. Now that CMPass Mush is gone this is probably one of the better bulky BP users. Togetic's typing and bulk is really good, and it can set up on shit like Tauros, Purugly, Tangela, Altaria, etc etc. It also gets a slow and bulky BP meaning your fast sweeper gets in for free most of the time. Defog is a really nice move. Generally I don't stay in long enough with Togetic to do a mini-sweep, so Defog is a nice move midgame for hazard control purposes. I also pair Togetic with stuff like Articuno and Simisear, so it's really useful to clear hazards and the pass. Fire Blast can be used too if your teammates are stuff like Ice- or Grass-types and the like, and you would prefer to get rid of Steel-types first as they generally like switching into Togetic, too.

Speed is for min Spe Golem but there's probably a better spread, idk

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-179916183 - I screwed around at the end but the point is that this shows that Togetic can set up on stuff and pass quite well.

 

[ryan]

Togetic @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Defog / Fire Blast
- Roost

NastyPass Togetic is quite underrated. Now that CMPass Mush is gone this is probably one of the better bulky BP users. Togetic's typing and bulk is really good, and it can set up on shit like Tauros, Purugly, Tangela, Altaria, etc etc. It also gets a slow and bulky BP meaning your fast sweeper gets in for free most of the time. Defog is a really nice move. Generally I don't stay in long enough with Togetic to do a mini-sweep, so Defog is a nice move midgame for hazard control purposes. I also pair Togetic with stuff like Articuno and Simisear, so it's really useful to clear hazards and the pass. Fire Blast can be used too if your teammates are stuff like Ice- or Grass-types and the like, and you would prefer to get rid of Steel-types first as they generally like switching into Togetic, too.

Speed is for min Spe Golem but there's probably a better spread, idk

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-179916183 - I screwed around at the end but the point is that this shows that Togetic can set up on stuff and pass quite well.

worth noting that it does considerably worse against Life Orb Tauros than the Scarf Tauros in the replay.

252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Climb vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 114-136 (36.4 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 130-153 (41.5 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

but yea in general Togetic is an excellent Pokemon. great typing, insane bulk, good movepool, etc.

 

[Magnemite]

Togetic @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Bold Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Defog / Fire Blast
- Roost

NastyPass Togetic is quite underrated. Now that CMPass Mush is gone this is probably one of the better bulky BP users. Togetic's typing and bulk is really good, and it can set up on shit like Tauros, Purugly, Tangela, Altaria, etc etc. It also gets a slow and bulky BP meaning your fast sweeper gets in for free most of the time. Defog is a really nice move. Generally I don't stay in long enough with Togetic to do a mini-sweep, so Defog is a nice move midgame for hazard control purposes. I also pair Togetic with stuff like Articuno and Simisear, so it's really useful to clear hazards and the pass. Fire Blast can be used too if your teammates are stuff like Ice- or Grass-types and the like, and you would prefer to get rid of Steel-types first as they generally like switching into Togetic, too.

Speed is for min Spe Golem but there's probably a better spread, idk

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-179916183 - I screwed around at the end but the point is that this shows that Togetic can set up on stuff and pass quite well.

lol that replay

but yeah nastypass togetic sets up on a ridiculous amount of stuff, particularly the omnipresent poliwrath. It also helps that some common answers to standard togetic, like putting toxic on mons that it walls like poliwrath, etc don't do anything to stop it from doing its job.