Metagame ORAS/XY PU (Serperior Banned)

[WildHope]

So are you saying other users of Toxic Spikes are broken? That thing like Nidorino using them are broken? I don't really think that banning a hazard is the route to go, this seems very similar to asking to ban Stealth Rock lol.

Thats why i say decent, having that put Garbo over edge, without it he is an average mon, than can have other use. The only problem with Garbo is than we dont have good removers for the hazard, im not a big fan of bans to moves, but in this case i can see it as an option, we think than Garbo is broken because he is a good mon with (T)Spikes, if other good mon with that move fall here we are going to have the same problem, if we only ban that move we dont need more bans.

But yeah, for now we dont have more mons with similar qualities, and because that my argument is hard to back up, i have no problems with a Garbodor ban either (and btw i dont thing than Roselia is suspect worthy, at least in the actual meta) i was just trying a different route than i feel a bit more healthy, but i guess than isnt something than can happen in this meta (useless we get a lot of users from nowhere, and i know than that isnt even possible).

I feel bad for being always in the pro ban, but i know than we need a suspect as soon as possible.

 

[g]

I really disagree with this for a few reasons. The main reasons that Garbodor is broken but Roselia isn't are that Roselia doesn't set up Toxic Spikes on nearly as many threats as Garbodor, and that Roselia only really fits on stall and balance, while Garbodor can function very effectively on all types of teams. Unlike Garbodor, Roselia can't do much to pressure defoggers and avalugg other than put them to sleep, which makes it much easier to remove Roselia's hazards, along with its lack of offensive presence in general. Roselia also isn't nearly as versatile as Garbodor, as it can only run defensive sets effectively. Where Garbodor shines the most is arguably on offensive teams, a place where Roselia simply can't perform well. I don't think anyone thinks hazard stall is broken either.

Regardless, even if Roselia was broken, that wouldn't mean that we would have to ban Toxic Spikes, as we could have just banned both Garbodor and Roselia. Move bans in general are really tough to justify, especially when the move is only broken on one Pokemon (or two, even if you count Roselia).

Anyway, Garbodor is pretty ridiculous, and I have yet to see any well rounded arguments for keeping it around. Unless anyone has any major arguments against suspecting it, I think it would be best to suspect Garbodor sometime in the very near future, as the sooner we can get this garbage out of the tier, the better.

I totally agree on wanting Garbodor to be suspected. The main reason is because it makes the metagame incredibly hazards centric (which is also the reason I voted dnb musharna because in a tier in which setting up hazards is this easy its not hard to pressure it). With Garbodor in the tier there is no reason not to use Spikes or Toxic Spikes. Secondly it fits in EVERY playstyle and provides a lot of utility to the team it is in such as beating and setting up layers against top threats such as Poliwrath, Scyther, Throh, any Grass-type and even Sneasel somewhat while being the opposite of passive with a moderately stromg STAB, decent coverage moves, and Haze to stop any setup. Thirdly hazards removing is not that effective against it. Against Garbodor only 2 Defoggers can switch in (Pelipper and Prinplup) and only one beats the Explosion set (Swanna). Pelipper isn't even a 100% reliable switch as Thunderbolt sets (which aren't even terrible tbf) destroy it with 36 SpA and Gunk Shot poisoning puts on it enormous pressure on defogging and Prinplup has no recovery outside of Rest.
Regarding spinner Avalugg can't break Misdreavus whatsoever (especially if Pain Spilt) or even Gourgeist if its healthy (as it can just burn and Synthesis up and Wartortle has no recovery outside of rest, is murederd by Tspikes etc.

 

[Anty]

First post as council member n_n.

A lot has already been said, especcially on how over centralising and how good spikes/tspikes are. A main reason i think garbodor should be banned (and a main reason spikes/tspikes are so effective) are because of garbo itself. Firstly, it has decent bulk and a good physically defensive typing to be able to set up spikes on nearly all physical attackers; it is one of the best answer to subpunch poliwrath as it does not fear a toxic, and can switch into plenty of other attackers like throh, dodrio, etc. It even checks the two shell smashers. Specially defensive sets are also really good, as they can check dangerous offensive pokemon like serperior which stall otherwise has to run body slam on licki to beat it. Aftermath is incredibly frustrating with rocky helmet, allowing it to set up several spikes/tspikes and pokes and still deal damage. It can also block set up sweepers with haze or threaten with gunk shot.
Overall garbodor can check the majority of attackers in the pu meta and use them as spikes fodder. Note that isnt just what makes it broken; also about how amazing spikes are in this meta, how limited certain teams are to beat hazards (dont give me the avalugg crap, misdreavus is the best blocker and laughs in its face), and lastly, how centralising and unhealthy for the meta it is).

There is no point in banning single hazards, as the reason they are so good is garbodor.

 

[Choice Banned]

So how do you think Leafeon will fare in the changed PU meta?

 

[WhiteDMist]

UPDATE:

Alright, with so many Council members that feel Garbodor is overcentralizing, it's time for our next suspect test! This suspect test will last for 2 weeks. We will be adding a few people to the Temporary Council, so remember to make insightful posts (especially about Garbodor), be active in #pu and the PU Room, and play with Garbodor often. If you feel there are other possible suspects, feel free to discuss and nominate them as well!

Discuss away guys!

 

[Grim]

I guess I will start the discussion. :]

Having used Garbodor a lot and peaking #4 with it, I feel like Garbodor deserves a ban. It provides excellent utility to all kinds of teams in PU with its combination of Spikes, Toxic Spikes, offensive presence, decent bulk, and decent defensive typing.

Now this on its own would in my opinion not necessarily be broken, but there are only two usable users of Rapid Spin in PU. Avalugg and Wartortle. Avalugg is weak to Stealth Rocks and all types of spikes, and can not beat the best and standard spinblocker in the tier that is more or less always used together with it: Misdreavus. It laughs in Avalugg's face and can defeat it with the combination of Taunt + Will O Wisp, and can essentially switch in forever if using Pain Split. Wartortle can use Foresight for a guaranteed Rapid Spin, but is very easy to wear down with the Spikes and Toxic Spikes Garbodor lays down, as it has no recovery outside of Rest.
Now there is still the unblockable Defog, but when almost all Defoggers are weak to Electric (a lot of them even 4x) and Togetic straight up loses to Garbodor, the removal is not that hard to prevent with correct prediction. Electric-types also have acces to Volt Switch, allowing them to gain momentum and force the opponent to switch around even more and making them take hazard damage. Defiant and Competitive pokemon are also a thing.
Garbodor is not a momentum killer either, because it's a good pokemon in general that actually has good (for PU) Attack, and can force out common pokemon such as Poliwrath, Throh, Sneasel and Leafeon. It also has a wide movepool to surprise pokemon that would otherwise be able to force it out, like Seed Bomb for Carracosta and Barbaracle, and Thunderbolt for Pelipper and Swanna.

Of course it's not a perfect pokemon. It has no reliable recovery and likes a Rocky Helmet over Black Sludge, making it even easier to wear down. People also overprepare for it, making it harder for it to do its job; though this overpreparation also shows how deadly it is.

Basically: Garbodor is not a broken pokemon at it's own, but the circumstances in PU make it in my opinion banworthy.

 

[Mistress Remilia]

So, Garbodor is now being suspected, huh? Well, guess it's time to give my opinion about it.

First, Garbodor's role in itself and the fact that it fullfies its role very well, while being often used, somewhat forces to run a Defogger, or even a Spinner for teams that also uses lots of hazards.
At first, it doesn't seem like much of a problem, but here's the thing. In PU, there is 1 really good spinner, that gets completely wrecked by Garbodor's often seen partner: Misdreavus. And Watortle, who is very mediocre to begin with, and outside of the ability to spin with Foresight, offers nothing than set up for devastating mons. That means Hazard Teams will end up having problems for spinning most of the times, and it reduces teambuilding more than anything, like, get off mons like Regice that dies to multiples Hazard if they tend to switch in too often.

Then, there's defoggers, that are all weak to less commons, yet effective partners: Electrics Types.
In fact, all effective defoggers are weak to Electric moves, which again, can limit your teambuilding, knowing you may not be able to have Hazard Controls.

Overall, Garbodor + Misdreavus + Electric Type end up allowing most teams to have perfect hazard control, which is, how to say that, pretty broken? n_n
At the moment, any unaware player would say:
" It's okay if Garbodor in itself is weak, isn't it? "

Well, yes. But the thing is, GARBODOR ISN'T WEAK AT ALL.
As i'm sure you all know, Poison type is a very decent defensive typing, and Garbodor's good bulk allows him to switch in a variety of moves w/out taking much damage.
" But it's probably weak, isn't it? "
Hahahaha you're probably joking.
95 Atk is very good for Garbodor, and he gets a fairly decent movepool, having a very powerful STAB in Gunk Shot, Offensive Recovery as well with Drain Punch, and it can even run some specials moves like T-Bolt to lure the 2 main defoggers: Pelipper & Swanna ( Even if i haven't seen swanna for quite a while, did you? )

Its main flaw is the lack of recovery, which can be solved by having ANOTHER partner such as Lickilicky to send you big wishes.
As you can see, i've been talking about partners of Garbodor all the time, and that's the thing that makes Garbodor so ban worthy imo.
It limits the opponent's teambuilding, but it limits your teambuilding as well, which make the PU more predictable, and way less interesting.

Garbodor isn't that broken in itself, it's just how the tier is made that make it so broken, BAN IT.

 

[Ary]

I'm not sure about anyway to write this that doesn't make it seem like I'm writing a shitty High School essay and apparently nobody else does either. So ummm... yeah , Garb is umm trash? It's only good because of the circumstances it exists in, the lack of any good spinners and the hard to break or just offensively powerful spinblockers. Avalugg isn't handling haunter and wartortle isn't beating missy 1v1 & vice-versa or some shit. It's only CENTRALIZING because it has an offensive presence while being a relatively defensive mon w/ access to hazards. Poison is a nice defensive and offensive typing in this tier, lets it fuck w/ grass types & fairies and also beat throh while having enough bulk to take on other physical attackers and whittle them w/ helmet & aftermath I mean usually gunk and then residual is enough to get a kill on a lot of things and it's access to psplit means it isn't afraid of shit like crothroh. Where was I going with this? Oh yeah umm it's an otherwise unremarkable mon and the circumstances it exists in are what make it good.

It limits teambuilding only in the sense that you need hazard removal, i don't know why people wouldn't run hazard removal in the first place so I don't really see that as anything really, he has terrible 4mss i don't know how anyone can fit shit like tbolt or seed bomb on him, you'd be sacrificing utility for the sole purpose of hitting something you don't really need to.

So how do you think Leafeon will fare in the changed PU meta?

If garb goes than sun takes over pu is p much what happens.

 

[Grim]

It limits teambuilding only in the sense that you need hazard removal, i don't know why people wouldn't run hazard removal in the first place so I don't really see that as anything really, he has terrible 4mss i don't know how anyone can fit shit like tbolt or seed bomb on him, you'd be sacrificing utility for the sole purpose of hitting something you don't really need to.

I don't agree with what you say here. Hazard removal is very hard to fit on PU teams, because more or less all viable hazard removers have to compete for a teamslot, and other removers simply fail to do their job (Avalugg loses to spinblockers, Wartortle is worn down, Togetic loses from Garbodor). When you already have a SubPunch Poliwrath, you don't want to add a Swanna (the only viable offensive Defogger) too, because that stacks weaknesses.
It has no 4MSS at all. Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Gunk Shot is all you really need. The fourth moveslot is customizable to whatever your team likes. You aren't sacrificing any utility by using Thunderbolt, Seed Bomb, Drain Punch, Rock Blast, or Haze in the fourth moveslot. This versatility only makes it more dangerous.

 

[WildHope]

Also, most of the time i dont see the need of a Spin Blocker, you can kill Ava/War (and also Prin/Lumi) by pure residual damage between TS, and sometimes SR or Rocky Helment.
Then you only have to take care of the Water/Flying trio.
If you opponent cannot fit a good hazard removal is pretty much a gg from team preview in most cases.

If garb goes than sun takes over pu is p much what happens.

Then we ban Leafeon/Heat Rock or whatever is broken, we dont keep broken shit to check broken mons. And i dont even thing than Sun is broken now or then anyway.

 

[Ary]

.
Then we ban Leafeon/Heat Rock or whatever is broken, we dont keep broken shit to check broken mons. And i dont even thing than Sun is broken now or then anyway.

I never said that, he asked how Leafeon will fare in the changed meta, w/out garb sun does what it does much easier. Since garb itself checks 3 of sun's mons, and can suicide to weaken any other ones.

I don't agree with what you say here. Hazard removal is very hard to fit on PU teams, because more or less all viable hazard removers have to compete for a teamslot, and other removers simply fail to do their job (Avalugg loses to spinblockers, Wartortle is worn down, Togetic loses from Garbodor). When you already have a SubPunch Poliwrath, you don't want to add a Swanna (the only viable offensive Defogger) too, because that stacks weaknesses.
It has no 4MSS at all. Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Gunk Shot is all you really need. The fourth moveslot is customizable to whatever your team likes. You aren't sacrificing any utility by using Thunderbolt, Seed Bomb, Drain Punch, Rock Blast, or Haze in the fourth moveslot. This versatility only makes it more dangerous.

Garb kind of needs psplit to function in a lot of situations, w/out it you get whittled easily, if you remove psplit for another option you're limiting your own ability to set up, so when it comes to garb you either choose longevity or the option to hit a semi-relevant threat to garb that can be covered by teammates. And being able to add efficient removal is just a matter of knowing how to build nobody would put poliwrath and swanna on the same team w/ out something to mitigate their shared weaknesses like metang which also covers rock support and can take on garb 1v1.

 

[Magnemite]

I never said that, he asked how Leafeon will fare in the changed meta, w/out garb sun does what it does much easier. Since garb itself checks 3 of sun's mons, and can suicide to weaken any other ones.



Garb kind of needs psplit to function in a lot of situations, w/out it you get whittled easily, if you remove psplit for another option you're limiting your own ability to set up, so when it comes to garb you either choose longevity or the option to hit a semi-relevant threat to garb that can be covered by teammates. And being able to add efficient removal is just a matter of knowing how to build nobody would put poliwrath and swanna on the same team w/ out something to mitigate their shared weaknesses like metang which also covers rock support and can take on garb 1v1.

Garbodor absolutely does not need pain split, i've been using haze in the last slot and i've been able to consistently get up one of each spike in most games without even running a spinblocker in many cases. sure, garbodor gets worn down, but rocky helmet and aftermath mean that in wearing it down you just wear yourself down in trying to do so. i don't really get why people think garbodor needs to stick around forever; as long as it gets up a couple of layers and checks a few things, which it can do with incredible ease, it has done its job.

also hazard removal is absolutely not easy to fit onto most teams, if you think that then you've got to be kidding yourself. unless you plan on using swanna on every single offensive team you make, you're going to be weak to garbodor at some point, and this is compounded by the fact that swanna isn't even an amazing pokemon. hazards are much harder to remove in PU than in any other tier, yet this hasn't stopped things like froslass and deoxys-d from being banned with overwhelming majorities even in tiers with hazard removers that are also top tier mons by themselves.

 

[WildHope]

I never said that, he asked how Leafeon will fare in the changed meta, w/out garb sun does what it does much easier. Since garb itself checks 3 of sun's mons, and can suicide to weaken any other ones.



Garb kind of needs psplit to function in a lot of situations, w/out it you get whittled easily, if you remove psplit for another option you're limiting your own ability to set up, so when it comes to garb you either choose longevity or the option to hit a semi-relevant threat to garb that can be covered by teammates. And being able to add efficient removal is just a matter of knowing how to build nobody would put poliwrath and swanna on the same team w/ out something to mitigate their shared weaknesses like metang which also covers rock support and can take on garb 1v1.

Meh, Pain Split isnt that good, i was using Garbo a lot in the musha meta and some time before we all agree on his brokeness and i never use Pain Split on it. One layer of Toxic Spikes and/or Spikes are enough for Offensive teams, and you can kill every hazard remover pretty quick, even when Garbodor isnt that hard to whear down he life longer than any hazard removal and dont need recovery at all to set up hazards in some threats like Poli or Tangela who cannot touch you at all.

Also, if you want to use Sub Poli, you want something for TS, and if you dont want to share weakness, you only way is the passive iceberg or a Grounded Poison type (and become weak to every other hazard), we dont have many options for team build with this thing. Also, try to counter Garbo with Metang when he can just put Spikes everytime you try to switch into it and kill you with Rocky Helm alone.

 

[UltiMario]

I'll start with the note I kinda fell out of this meta after Mushy ban since I didn't like the meta changes, but before that I topped the ladder a few times and I think I have a few posts in one of these PU threads proving it. My look on the meta is gunna be a bit outdated but its probly still valid.

I've played a good number of tiers since I started playing in 2005, but out of every single tier I've ever played, and every single suspect I've seen, Garbodor might be one of the most hilariously poor suspect choices in the history of the game. Usually when there's a problematic Hazard Setter in a tier, it's usually for a few reasons, the most common of which are that it can block the Spinning/Defogging of its hazards or that the mon in question pushes the game into a direction where only 2 types of teams are very viable (one abusing that setter, one that counters that team type). Garbador not only does neither of those, but doesn't even get close. It's literally just the best Pokemon in the tier that learns Spikes, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't cause unremovable hazards and it doesn't cause severe damage to the metagame that limits team choices. Banning it is no better than banning Spikes, and effectively, that's all it accomplishes, which is why I find it hilarious that when someone mentions banning Spikes they get met with incredible amounts of backlash when all banning Garbador does is get rid of a balanced mon from the meta that also happens to learn Spikes.

The Pokemon isn't even good because it's a high quality mon, it's good because the Spinners and Defoggers are low quality in the tier (and the funny part is that they're not even that bad, they're just about as good as Garbodor is on a base level if you discounted their Hazards/Spinning). While this is somewhat irrelevant, it's additionally an incredibly volatile to ban because if a good Spinner or Defogger happens to drop from NU... Garbodor's quality drops dramatically. That really says a lot about it: it doesn't have its own merits to warrant a ban, and it's frankly kind of a joke that its getting suspected to begin with.

 

[Ares]

Banning it is no better than banning Spikes, and effectively, that's all it accomplishes, which is why I find it hilarious that when someone mentions banning Spikes they get met with incredible amounts of backlash when all banning Garbador does is get rid of a balanced mon from the meta that also happens to learn Spikes.

So I'll post my thoughts on Garbodor later, but for now I'm going to answer this. Smogon does not like having complex bans or having bans on moves (unless they are uncompetative). For instance if you ban spikes, that means you are banning spikes for every single Pokemon in the tier. Admitadly the list is quite small this far down the tiering system but would you say that spikes are banned on, Delibird, Glalie, Maractus, Quilladin, Roselia, and Whirlipede? Cause if you think they are broken on those mons then I can see how you could think that, but personally I dont see Pokemon like Delibird or Marcactus very good users of the move.

 

[Karane]

Why isn't Mega-glalie banned or even suspected? I'm surprised that a ban worthy mon in NU is still here..

 

[Magnemite]

Why isn't Mega-glalie banned or even suspected? I'm surprised that a ban worthy mon in NU is still here..

Because Mega Glalie's best counters in the game in Piloswine and Avalugg are both very common and very good in PU. While it pretty much obliterates everything else and has a couple niche ways of bypassing these two, we felt that it wasn't really broken enough to warrant suspecting when it was inevitably going to move up by usage eventually.

UltiMario I have no idea why you're calling us out for making a suspect decision in a metagame that you openly admit to not having played, but your post is indeed not reflective of the current metagame, and all of the council members except one supported a suspect test, which is pretty close to unanimous for a "hilariously poor suspect choice".

 

[Ary]

I'll start with the note I kinda fell out of this meta after Mushy ban since I didn't like the meta changes, but before that I topped the ladder a few times and I think I have a few posts in one of these PU threads proving it. My look on the meta is gunna be a bit outdated but its probly still valid.

I've played a good number of tiers since I started playing in 2005, but out of every single tier I've ever played, and every single suspect I've seen, Garbodor might be one of the most hilariously poor suspect choices in the history of the game. Usually when there's a problematic Hazard Setter in a tier, it's usually for a few reasons, the most common of which are that it can block the Spinning/Defogging of its hazards or that the mon in question pushes the game into a direction where only 2 types of teams are very viable (one abusing that setter, one that counters that team type). Garbador not only does neither of those, but doesn't even get close. It's literally just the best Pokemon in the tier that learns Spikes, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't cause unremovable hazards and it doesn't cause severe damage to the metagame that limits team choices. Banning it is no better than banning Spikes, and effectively, that's all it accomplishes, which is why I find it hilarious that when someone mentions banning Spikes they get met with incredible amounts of backlash when all banning Garbador does is get rid of a balanced mon from the meta that also happens to learn Spikes.

The Pokemon isn't even good because it's a high quality mon, it's good because the Spinners and Defoggers are low quality in the tier (and the funny part is that they're not even that bad, they're just about as good as Garbodor is on a base level if you discounted their Hazards/Spinning). While this is somewhat irrelevant, it's additionally an incredibly volatile to ban because if a good Spinner or Defogger happens to drop from NU... Garbodor's quality drops dramatically. That really says a lot about it: it doesn't have its own merits to warrant a ban, and it's frankly kind of a joke that its getting suspected to begin with.

Literally this.

Because Mega Glalie's best counters in the game in Piloswine and Avalugg are both very common and very good in PU. While it pretty much obliterates everything else and has a couple niche ways of bypassing these two, we felt that it wasn't really broken enough to warrant suspecting when it was inevitably going to move up by usage eventually.

I don't get why it and camerupt weren't just QB'd, they make the meta worse just by existing in it, if things like garbodor limiting teambuilding is such a massive problem why allow things like the megas to still exist in the tier, they just make the problem even worse.

 

[henry]

Because Mega Glalie's best counters in the game in Piloswine and Avalugg are both very common and very good in PU. While it pretty much obliterates everything else and has a couple niche ways of bypassing these two, we felt that it wasn't really broken enough to warrant suspecting when it was inevitably going to move up by usage eventually.

UltiMario I have no idea why you're calling us out for making a suspect decision in a metagame that you openly admit to not having played, but your post is indeed not reflective of the current metagame, and all of the council members except one supported a suspect test, which is pretty close to unanimous for a "hilariously poor suspect choice".

The point UltiMario was trying to make (which you completely ignored) was that the council members are wrong, not that the suspect test itself was not agreed upon by players (the council) that are clearly not as good at pokemon when compared to that of essentially every iteration of every other tier council ever.

 

[MZ]

Literally everything people have said earlier is why I think Garbodor should be banned. However, I don't see why people's arguments that Garbodor simply happens to be the best spiker makes it any less broken. Just because it's in circumstances that make it good doesn't mean that it's any less good, that's like saying that Poliwrath is only good because it beats top mons, therefore it's not really good. It's stupidly easy to prevent defog and has a lot of different viable options for the fourth moveslot (pain split is nowhere near required, I'd much rather use drain punch, T-bolt, or seed bomb), and the fact is that it's gonna spike on most of the tier with very few options to remove it.The other non-ban argument was that having spikes doesn't make a mon broken because spikes don't guarantee a win, but with all of the major walls outside of Pelipper being grounded, just one layer of spikes is enough to decimate any balance or stall team with a plethora of good mons like Tauros, Serperior, Leafeon, or Carracosta. It's basically in the same boat as Deo-S as being too good at what it does imo.

Tl;dr Spikes are really good rn, garbodor ensures 2 layers 99% of the time and makes wrecking balance/stall very easy, I'm pro-ban

 

[termi]

The point UltiMario was trying to make (which you completely ignored) was that the council members are wrong, not that the suspect test itself was not agreed upon by players (the council) that are clearly not as good at pokemon when compared to that of essentially every iteration of every other tier council ever.

Try harder lmao

So onward to good friend UltiMario's post:

I'll start with the note I kinda fell out of this meta after Mushy ban since I didn't like the meta changes, but before that I topped the ladder a few times and I think I have a few posts in one of these PU threads proving it. My look on the meta is gunna be a bit outdated but its probly still valid.

I've played a good number of tiers since I started playing in 2005, but out of every single tier I've ever played, and every single suspect I've seen, Garbodor might be one of the most hilariously poor suspect choices in the history of the game. Usually when there's a problematic Hazard Setter in a tier, it's usually for a few reasons, the most common of which are that it can block the Spinning/Defogging of its hazards or that the mon in question pushes the game into a direction where only 2 types of teams are very viable (one abusing that setter, one that counters that team type). Garbador not only does neither of those, but doesn't even get close. It's literally just the best Pokemon in the tier that learns Spikes, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't cause unremovable hazards and it doesn't cause severe damage to the metagame that limits team choices. Banning it is no better than banning Spikes, and effectively, that's all it accomplishes, which is why I find it hilarious that when someone mentions banning Spikes they get met with incredible amounts of backlash when all banning Garbador does is get rid of a balanced mon from the meta that also happens to learn Spikes.

The Pokemon isn't even good because it's a high quality mon, it's good because the Spinners and Defoggers are low quality in the tier (and the funny part is that they're not even that bad, they're just about as good as Garbodor is on a base level if you discounted their Hazards/Spinning). While this is somewhat irrelevant, it's additionally an incredibly volatile to ban because if a good Spinner or Defogger happens to drop from NU... Garbodor's quality drops dramatically. That really says a lot about it: it doesn't have its own merits to warrant a ban, and it's frankly kind of a joke that its getting suspected to begin with.

How to: miss the point.

The first thing that went wrong in this post is that you admit that you haven't played the meta in a good while, and yet you do feel like you have sufficient metagame knowledge to judge whether the thing currently being suspected is broken. Well, ok, let's assume you do know what's up and that "I haven't played the meta for months" does not mean "I do not know the meta.

The second thing that went wrong here is that you are trying to compare different Pokemon that were suspected in different tiers to the suspect at hand. Let's, for example, take Froslass, which was banned from RU this gen for being able to keep its hazards up with ease and then taking something down with it with a bit of luck. True, Garbodor does not have a Ghost typing, it does not have Taunt and it does not have Destiny Bond, but you forget that RU is not PU and the fact that their suspect has to meet these requirements to be broken on a support-based level does not mean that ours needs to meet the same criteria. Let's not forget that we don't have a whole lot of viable hazard removers (the only good offensive one is Swanna, for example) and that Garbodor is actually able to spin/defogblock if it wants to (Tbolt for Pelipper, Mantine and Swanna, Explosion for a one-time pseudo-spinblock, otherwise just slap a Misdreavus on your team to take care of Avalugg). It's also bulky, so it can actually set hazards multiple times during a battle rather than having one shot at it. Basically: don't try to compare this suspect to suspects in different tiers/different gens/with different factors that make it broken.

The third thing that went wrong here is that you went ahead and said that without Spikes Garbodor isn't good anymore. Well done champ! It's true! But the thing is, it does get Spikes! I could go ahead and ask "what if Froslass didn't learn Spikes?" and you'd answer that it'd drop to NU or PU because Spikes are its niche. Wouldn't Deoxys-D basically be a slightly worse Cresselia without access to its hazards? Wouldn't Scolipede have been fine in last gen's NU if it weren't for the fact that its access to Spikes + the awful spinners that resided in the tier made the entire tier centered around hazards? Isn't the same happening here? We can't compare Garbodor to other mons in other tiers by looking at their exact movepool and stats and going "but this thing's way worse", but we can draw a parallel between all these mons and Garbodor in the sense that if they lose their key move, they're suddenly not that scary anymore. And yet they were banned, because they learned that one key move.

The fourth thing that went wrong is that you said that banning Garbodor is no different from banning Spikes, which I won't go into any further because Magnemite covered that part real horrorshow and the same sort of argument has been held many times before in different tiers and the result has always been the same: banning the move is not necessary unless it is broken on every legal mon in the tier that gets it. This is simply not the case, we do have some hazard removers that suffice just fine and our other hazard setters are way worse than Garbodor. The only great Spikes setter I know of bar Garbodor is Roselia, which is a great mon but way less easy to fit on a team than Garbodor (which fits on every team pretty much) and a lot more predictable.

The final thing that went wrong is that you appear to think that if a mon is broken more due to the shape of the meta than because of its inherent qualities, it isn't actually broken, which is funny because when you suspect/ban something, you take a look at the way the Pokemon influences the entire tier rather than how it inherently can perform, because only in context does a ban make sense. Let's take BW2 NU again. Scolipede ended up being broken because the tier was shaped in such a way, that good hazard removal was hard to come by and therefore spikestacking HO had an inherent advantage over other playstyles. It wasn't broken in RU because in RU there were more spinners available. Suspect testing is almost entirely context. Your last point contributes nothing to the discussion and is also easily refuted by saying that if Kabutops or whatever would have dropped to NU last gen, Scolipede would have been fine and didn't have to be banned. If we ban it and the meta eventually shapes so that it becomes less friendly to it, then we retest it. If that doesn't happen, then good riddance.

I may not have convinced you that Garbodor is broken, but at the very least I have proven that Garbodor is not at all a ridiculous suspect candidate. Also, play the meta before posting thank you very much.

 

[Empress]

What does PU do for suspects? Do they have a council vote on them (like UU) or does the community vote on them (like OU)?

(If this is the wrong place for a question like this, I apologize)

 

[WhiteDMist]

What does PU do for suspects? Do they have a council vote on them (like UU) or does the community vote on them (like OU)?

(If this is the wrong place for a question like this, I apologize)

Council vote. We have a Permanent Council, and during each suspect test, we add in members to form a Temporary Council for that vote. In a way, it's a bit like both.

 

[WhiteDMist]

UPDATE

After some discussion between the Council, we have decided to add Glalite and Cameruptite to the suspect test! The time frame is still the same, but there's plenty of time still for the testing.

So some of you are wondering what the criteria is for getting a spot on the Temporary Council. The Council will be looking through this thread and keeping an eye on #pu and the PU Room on Pokemon Showdown for good contributors to the discussion, and especially for those who are good at focusing the discussions. Those who we deem are a good presence will be asked to provide a screenshot with a PU ladder alt showing that they have reached a basic ladder requirement. What is the requirement you ask?

REQUIREMENTS
Minimum of 50 battles
Glicko-1 score of 1750±50 or lower deviation (second number).
GXE score greater than 70

Not a difficult task, seeing as you still have 10 days to reach it. Already, most people in the top 100 on the ladder have reached it or are close. Remember, this requirement is ONLY for the people who are candidates for Temporary Council; do not send me or any of the PU Council screenshots if you haven't been asked to. Also, please do not ask whether we are considering you or not, it will only make us less inclined to pick you. As any member of the Council, Permanent or Temporary, will greatly influence the future of the metagame, we must make sure that the people in the Council are a good presence and understand the CURRENT metagame competently.

 

[termi]

I don't really play this metagame or follow it that closely but I have an issue with the current Garbodor suspect test. I don't understand how you can ban the literal 'Trash Heap Pokemon' from a tier where the pokemon are so bad that they stink. Garbodor should be like your logo, and I don't care if it's broken: it's way too ironic to ban.

ok thank u v. much 4 contributing we appreciate ur amazing insight into the matter and we will keep it in mind :]]]