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Origin Cave

Discussion in 'BW Other Teams' started by Santuga, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Santuga

    Santuga

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2011
    Messages:
    386
    Introduction

    After all the excitement about the new BW2 changes being settled down, we have finally some room to breathe and get back our beloved UnderUsed tier as it was before. With that thought on my mind, I decided to take a trip back to my origins and decided to make a team with Pokemon I really enjoyed using instead of picking top-tier threats and build teams around them, and so the name Origin Cave came up. So, as a result, I happened to come up with this team which I really enjoy using. I have been getting some positive results on the PO ladder (I really can't stand Showdown's laddering system as it is, for now) and at some point I reached top #20, but I lost due to hax the next match, got mad, quit PO and didn't check my ranking. As much as I'd like to not get haxed, I can't control it because this team is an autentical hax magnet. This team is nowhere near perfection and it probably needs some good advice to make it rise to the top, so I am counting with the help of you all, so make sure to make constructive arguments in order to improve!

    Team Glance


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    Teambuilding Process
    Show Hide


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    Shaymin has earned a special spot in my heart since HGSS OU and I can't help but bringing it to some of my teams whenever I have the chance to. Since this is a trip to my origins, I could not let my beloved partner out of the party.

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    I have always been a fan on the Fire / Water / Grass core, but this time it happened by pure accident. I've always put Scarf Darmanitan on the side due to its somewhat lackluster Speed, but since I was in charge of its analysis here on Smogon and I knew it packed a lot of power, I decided to give it a go. As such, I needed a Rapid Spinner, and since I don't like Hitmontop, I picked Blastoise, thus completing the Fire / Water / Grass core.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Since I had a very solid core, might as well start adding up some features and thinking about covering certain threats. Rhyperior is a multi-task member with four main functions: laying down Stealth Rock, checking Raikou, putting pressure on the opponent with its base 140 Attack and phazing away the opponent's team or get rid of a threat at that moment.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    I noticed my team's bulkiest Pokemon lacked reliable recovery and they were very susceptible to status conditions, do I decided to slap an Umbreon on the team. It's not a step back because Umbreon holds the team together and it helps to check other important threats like Chandelure.

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    Looking at those 5 soldiers, I didn't know what to add at first sight. Meanwhile I was looking at some of my older teams and I came across with a team that had a lead Empoleon set, and I immediatly thought Empoleon could be my clean up sweeper. It's not very used, it brings back some good memories and it works decently. I had finished my teambuilding process with a smile on my lips and eager to start laddering.

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    After doing a few experiment matches, Silvershadow234's changes came through for me and I decided to implement them. I have absolutely no regrets and what was a completely lost ranking due to lots of lost matches due to hax, is now back to an acceptable peak. A lot of threats to my team were covered with these changes and I'm glad with the outcome of the team.​


    Origin Cave


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    [​IMG]

    Cofagrigus (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mummy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Haze
    - Pain Split

    After constantly noticing and being told I needed something to combat Fighting-types, I surrendered and I decided to try out Cofagrigus. At first, I thought it would have been like taking a step back: I would lose my Rapid Spin support, my Water component of the core and the ability to Toxic some walls to wear them down easily if I took Blastoise out of the team. Much to my surprise, Cofagrigus, as shown in the picture, decided to show me the middle finger and prove its worth. To be completely honest, Cofagrigus doesn't give a shit about Heracross, Mienshao or Scrafty, since when they hit Cofagrigus, they lose their ability, making them that much easier to be stopped in conjunction with Will-O-Wisp. Cofagrigus also likes to party with Dragon Dance Kingdra, giving Kingdra the privilege to share Cofagrigus's brilliant smoke provided by the move Haze. Although it is seriously crippled by status, I have a way to work around it, so as long and it can stay healthy for another round with the help of Pain Split, Cofagrigus definetly earned a spot on my team. It also serves the purpose of being a Spinblocker and it can burn Hitmontop or Blastoise without caring about getting hit with a Toxic.


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    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Heracross (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Megahorn
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake

    Probably the best change BW2 provided was Moxie Heracross. If Heracross was already good with Guts (it still has its very good uses, don't get me wrong), with Moxie it makes Heracross probably the biggest threat in the tier at the moment, and it is no surprise that it reached #1 usage for this month. The best way to abuse the Attack boosts is to, obviously, back it up with more Speed, and the only way Heracross can raise its Speed is by holding a Choice Scarf. What was previously a Darmanitan that hits hard right off the bat is now a Heracross which enjoys coming in on any opportunity, get an easy KO and start wrecking with its double STAB moves after one or two boosts. Once you remove the likes of Gligar, Crobat, Cofagrigus and Zapdos, Heracross can come in, lock itself into one move and sweep the opponent. If you get stuck by a Pokemon that resists the move you are locked into, switch out and come back in. Repeat the process (...) profit. With the help of Cofagrigus to keep the Stealth Rock in their rightfull place, even Heracross's direct counters will be worn down slowly to the point where they can't take on it anymore. The only backside that holds Heracross in this tier is its mediocre Speed. It is easily revenge killed by every Choice Scarf user over base 85 Speed that lacks a super effective move. A lot of names come to my head: Victini, Darmanitan, Zapdos, Zoroark, Rotom-H and Yanmega with Speed Boost. However, these threats are taken care of the remaning member of my team. Although I lose my only Fire-type move in the team, the power and coverage Heracross provides are unvaluable, and therefore it earned a spot on my team.


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    Shaymin @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Seed Flare
    - Earth Power
    - Psychic
    - Synthesis

    God I don't even know how to start writing about this thing. Shaymin is extremely underrated in my opinion and it should not be underestimated. STAB Seed Flare has a 40% of lowering your opponent's Special Defense by 2 stages... You know what that means right? Even Special walls like Umbreon and Snorlax don't like stay in after the Special Defense drop, meaning I get a free hit on whatever they bring in next. Earth Power hits Registeel, Victini and Arcanine on the switch-in as well as taking care of Chandelure with ease. Psychic is listed over Hidden Power Fire / Ice to hit Crobat, Nidoking, Mienshao and Heracross for super effective damage. As for the last slot, the decision between Rest and Synthesis. In this team I prefer to run Synthesis because Shaymin causes a lot of switches and I can easily get a free turn to heal. If I run Synthesis, I can heal 50% of my health and be ready to strike the next turn, thus preventing my opponent from taking advantage of my sleeping condition and get a free turn to set up stat boosts or entry hazards. However, with Rest, even though Shaymin gets more health back, it is a sitting duck for one turn and I simply can't let that happen.


    [​IMG]

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    Empoleon (M) @ Petaya Berry
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Substitute
    - Agility

    The star of the show! Once the opponent's Choice Scarf users are removed, Empoleon can make use if its excellent typing to come in on the battlefield, force a switch, get a Substitute up, set up an Agility the turn they break my Substitute, repeat the process until the activation of the Petaya Berry and poof, you get yourself a killing machine. +1 Torrent boosted Surf coming off an Empoleon with max Special Attack destroys teams apart, and when you feel like Surf can't kill your opponent's Grass-type, you have Ice Beam at your disposal. Ice Beam is used over Grass Knot because Empoleon beats Water-types one on one due to its resistence to Water and good Special Defense, allowing it most times to strike twice while the opponent is desperate because they see their Water-type resistence go down only to break a mere Substitute. However, it might look appealing, but it is not all roses for Empoleon. The main problem is the lack of Speed, so you need to make sure Choice Scarf users above or equal to base 85 Speed with a boosting Speed nature are out of the game before using Empoleon, or at least you need to be sure you can OHKO the opponent's Choice Scarf user and sweep their team without a Substitute up. This might sound extremely hard to pull off, but remember. You have five other Pokemon on your team, there's always a way around!


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    Rhyperior (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Solid Rock
    EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Blast
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dragon Tail

    It is exactly as it looks. Bulky, powerful, strong, possessive. When Rhyperior is out, its job is to dominate the field and to what it wants with the opponent, pretty much like a puppet (obviously overreacting, but you get the message). Specially Defensive Rhyperior works better in play than on paper to be honest, most games Rhyperior only goes down due to critical hits. It is my primary check to Raikou, as it only takes about 40% from +1 Hidden Power Ice and completely annihilate Raikou in the process with Earthquake, its main STAB move and the most powerful move in the set. Rock Blast is prefered over Stone Edge because of the ability to break through Substitutes (Zapdos hello?) and break Focus Sash. Stealth Rock is an absolute must to this team in order to keep the pressure on my opponent when making its move while also turning 2HKOs into OHKOs. Dragon Tail is my second last resort move against set up sweepers and it lets me dent Flygon on the switch-in on a predicted Earthquake. Moreover, Dragon Tail lets me shuffle the opponent's team to rack up Stealth Rock damage while also dealing a good amount of damage due to Rhyperior's stellar Attack stat.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Umbreon (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Foul Play
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Heal Bell

    Last but not least, comes Umbreon. If you asked me if Umbreon is any good before using this team, I would say no. However, my opinion changed and so will yours. Although it may seem like a sitting duck, it will prove you wrong. Wish is my way of recovering not only Umbreon's health, but also every single Pokemon on my team's health as well, making the opponent desperate when they see their efforts in vain fade away while the HP bar goes up. Protect is not only used to ensure I get the Wish on Umbreon, but it is a useful tool for scouting purposes, specially against Choice users, while letting me get one more turn of Leftovers which proves to be extremely crucial in certain situations. Heal Bell complements Umbreon's support role and it benefits my team as I can afford to take a status condition with my Blastoise or Rhyperior in order to get up my Stealth Rock, get a Rapid Spin off or get a quick phaze with either Roar or Dragon Tail. Heal Bell is also an amazing move to piss off the opponent, alongside with Umbreon's ability Synchronize. If I predict a Toxic coming in my way, I can easily switch to Umbroen, poison the opponent as well due to Synchronize and then heal myself with Heal Bell. As a result, it's the same as if the opponent used Toxic on itself. As for its only attacking move, Foul Play, it is not as bad as it seems. I find it more useful than Payback because the latter is too situational, and Foul Play has the nice feature of hitting harder the stronger the opponent is. This lets me have a answer to Snorlax, Rhyperior and Darmanitan while I am also healing myself up with Wish.


    Threat List

    Suicune completely shuts down my team once Shaymin is gone because I run Ice Beam over Grass Knot on Empoleon. My only hope is to force Suicune to use Rest and then phaze it out and let it for the end of the match where Empoleon already has its Petaya Berry and Torrent range activated while Suicune still has to burn two turns of sleep.

    Aftermath

    Any suggestions are welcome as long as they are constructive and have some thought into it! Changes will be presented in bold


    Currently changes:

    Defensive Cofagrigus over Blastoise
    Choice Scarf Heracross over Darmanitan


    Thank you for taking your time to read this thread and I am looking forward to read some feedback!

    Importable - Steal me (open)
    Cofagrigus (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mummy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Shadow Ball
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Haze
    - Pain Split

    Heracross (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Megahorn
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake

    Shaymin @ Life Orb
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Seed Flare
    - Earth Power
    - Psychic
    - Synthesis

    Empoleon (M) @ Petaya Berry
    Trait: Torrent
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Surf
    - Ice Beam
    - Substitute
    - Agility

    Rhyperior (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Solid Rock
    EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 SDef
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Rock Blast
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dragon Tail

    Umbreon (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Synchronize
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Foul Play
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Heal Bell


    A round of applause for:

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  2. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Messages:
    738
    Hi there. Congrats on the ladder peak on PO, but there are some weaknesses that I will try to help you with.

    First of all, youhave nothing that can reliably take a hit from Heracross. Darmanitan is far too frail, and Blastoise has no recovery method at all. He switches in on Umbreon for free as well. Rhyperior and Empoleon are easily taken out by Close Combat, while Shaymin is decimated by Megahorn. Another big threat is Flygon, since it outpaces Darmanitan and Empoleon with a Scarf, and Shaymin is your only EQ resist. Blastoise can take a hit, but has no recovery and a predicted U-turn into Shaymin is not going to be good. An offensive LO Flygon actually kills your team 1 by 1, and it can survive a Superpower from your Scarf Darmanitan with ease. You basically have to rely on winning the speed tie with Shaymin. Mienshao is another large threat-2HKOing your entire team with HJK. You have to rely on Darmanitan revenge killing, and thanks to his ability Mienshao can just switch back out again.

    To me, the weakest link in this team is Empoleon, since you explained in the teambuilding section that it was a bit of an add-on. To fix both the Heracross problem, the Mienshao problem and the Flygon problem somewhat, I recommend using Cofagrigus over Empoleon. You desperately need a fighting resistance, and Cofagrigus is easily one of the best. The OTR set is incredibly good in this metagame-countering many of the tier's top fighting types, and thanks to his amazing defence it can counter Flygon somewhat as well, and it can perform well as a late game sweeper. With Flygon's speed turned against it, you can now reliably kill with Blastoise(although running Ice Beam to secure the 1HKO over Ice Beam might help. It can still deal with Zapdos and Togekiss, and you have Darmanitan for Sableye and Shaymin for Slowbro so you don't lose too much). Cofagrigus's Mummy ability allows it to neuter Regenerator and Moxie as well. Instead of the OTR set though, you may prefer to run the defensive set. This will pair very nicely with Umbreon thanks to their natural typing and defensive synergy. Cofag really appreciates the Wishes that Umbreon passes too. This set would be more ideal for taking out Flygon thanks to it's improved physical bulk and Will-O-Wisp.

    Here are the Cofagrigus sets:


    Offensive Trick Room:
    Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mummy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 30 Def / 30 SAtk / 30 SDef / 0 Spd
    - Trick Room
    - Nasty Plot
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]

    Physically Defensive:
    Cofagrigus @ Leftovers
    Trait: Mummy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    - Pain Split
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Shadow Ball
    - Haze

    GL and I hope I helped. It's nice to have a UU team actually worth rating as well.
  3. DestinyUnknown

    DestinyUnknown in other words...
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Messages:
    1,436
    Hey Santuga, this is definitely a solid team, but as you have probably already noticed, it has quite a weakness to Fighting type pokemon, as nothing on your team resists their attacks, which means that Mienshao or Choice Scarf Heracross have an easy time sweeping your team. Silvershadow's suggestion of using Cofagrigus is definitely in the right way to fix this problem, but I think that Umbreon is the most replaceable pokemon on your team, because the special threats it checks are already stopped by other pokemon on your team. I believe Empoleon is more important as it gives you some kind of ''late game sweeper'' and a hard hitting pokemon that can break defensive teams along Shaymin (basically, without Empoleon you can't defeat stall / semi stall teams).

    As for other options to deal with Fighting type pokemon, Crobat seems very interesting, as it can act as a check to Fighting types while keeping the offensive pressure and giving you a check to offensive grass-types (like Shaymin) which could be tough to face without Umbreon. Finally, the last option for dealing with Fighting types would be using Victini instead of Darmanitan. I know this is fairly unreliable as far as covering the Fighting-type weakness, but it's something to consider if you really don't want to get rid of Umbreon.
  4. Santuga

    Santuga

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2011
    Messages:
    386
    I can't say I'm surprised with the mentioned changes xD

    First of all, thank you two for your rates, and you both raise some points I have already considered a tiny bit

    @Silvershadow234: I definetly agree that I have a weakness against Fighting-types, specially Mienshao, since Heracross is revenge killed by Darmanitan at any point of the game. As for Flygon, if it is Scarf (which is what most people seem to use), even Umbreon can beat it 1v1 with Wish + Foul Play and Shaymin also only takes about 40-ish percent from a Scarf U-turn. I am really considering to use Cofagrigus, probably the Defensive set, which pairs extremely well with Umbreon. The problem is: Empoleon is the Pokemon I most enjoy using in this team, and if I had to stay firm about not switching out something on the team, it would definetly be Empoleon!

    What I'm about to say it's directed to both Silvershadow234 and DestinyUnknown. I am seriously considering to replace Cofagrigus over something to combat my Fighting-type resistence. However, I am not willing to replace Empoleon and Umbreon lets me stay safe against special sweepers like Chandelure (it would run over my entire team with Fire Blast + Energy Ball + Shadow Ball) and it heals my entire team, so I really feel like I'm stuck here xD
  5. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Messages:
    738
    Try replacing Blastoise with Cofagrigus and then switch Darmanitan to a Scarf Heracross. If you swap Hera with Darm you have a much more reliable way of smashing Snorlax's face in, and you gain another fighting resist-and you can counter Scrafty much more easily. Suicune is damaged harder by Heracross than Darmanitan and Mienshao is also somewhat covered. Without Darm, you no longer need RS support, and Umbreon has Heal Bell for Toxic Spikes, while Shaymin has natural cure anyway. Toxic Spikes is only found on full stall teams anyway, and they will most likely be wary of setting them up(Heracross could have Guts). Spike-stacking teams are much rarer-but offensive spike-stacking teams lead with Froslass and Rhyperior shreds Froslass easily thanks to Rock Blast, while even if you did have Blastoise, Roserade would still be able to set them up when Blastoise comes in to spin them. It makes you slightly more Zapdos weak, but Umbreon and Rhyperior are still solid counters to it. A well predicted Heracross Stone Edge will weaken it severely as well-enough for Shaymin to KO with Psychic. If you wanted too, Guts could be a good option since Empoleon is your late-game sweeper, not Heracross and having a burn absorber would be nice for this team-since Rhyperior will hate it. Sableye seems to pose a large threat if Shaymin goes down, since it can stall out Rhyperior and Taunt and burn Umbreon to death. Darmanitan would have been your initial switch in, but Heracross can do this job just as well-and 2HKO's Zapdos with Close Combat as well as Suicune(so he kind of turns your Toxic Spikes weakness into a help against another weakness).

    Hera set:

    Heracross @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Guts
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Megahorn
    - Stone Edge
    - Earthquake
  6. Santuga

    Santuga

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2011
    Messages:
    386
    Ok, I can definetly see those changes working. Mienshao is going to be worn out every single time it comes in and the damage caused by Stealth Rock can be "half covered" by Wish on Umbreon. Although Heracross doesn't have the immediate power Darmanitan has, it has a last resort Ground-type resistent if I ever need to rely on it to take out Flygon. With this I also gained a Rapid Spin blocker. I will be using Moxie Heracross for now, I believe my Umbreon can work around the status conditions somewhat safely. Thank you very much for the rate!
  7. Silvershadow234

    Silvershadow234 :]]]]]
    is a Pre-Contributor
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2012
    Messages:
    738
    Happy to help-love the Cofagrigus pic by the way.
  8. Santuga

    Santuga

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2011
    Messages:
    386
    This man knows what to like xD

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