OU Analyses Discussion Thread

[Ajwf]

With Chesnaught, I'd like to suggest a more aggressive tank set.

Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Atk / 220 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch
- Spikes
- Leech Seed

If you have really fantastic memory, you'll remember I suggested this set about a year and a half ago, though it wasn't wanted because the primary benefit of it was you sacrificed a bit of bulk to destroy azumarill as a check-down. I'll give a few comparisons in relative power.

Vs Weak Attacks (or what you want to take)
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 46-55 (12.1 - 14.4%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chesnaught: 63-74 (16.5 - 19.4%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery

Vs Stronger Attacks (This one in particular isn't relevant but it's a good example)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chesnaught: 175-207 (46 - 54.4%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 130-154 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 46.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So you do sacrifice a good bit of physical bulk. However, you gain back a few major things:

36+ Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 374-444 (97.3 - 115.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (87.5 if you don't have it)
0 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 330-390 (85.9 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (31.3 without)

This set was made to OHKO Azumarill up to like 132 HP and outspeed Jolly max speed azumarill. I know this isn't common at all (it wasn't common when I made the set, either), but the set grabs outspeeds on pivot Rotom-W, allowing you to do this:

36+ Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 216-254 (71.2 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Once Rotom has any chip damage (2 SR switches basically), you knock him out. And the set's a pretty good lure at this since Rotom-W wants to go for a burn.

For both of the above attacks, your investment in HP means that recoil is about 20% max (76 HP max recoil is .2 of 380).

Did I mention this set speed creeps landorus-t's defensive set? It's really nice to be able to take him out before he rocks up or skirts away. When countering him, you're not exactly pumping out damage, but you're still around a 3hko after hazards.

36+ Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 121-144 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 91.5% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It also is really nice because you can get spikes down BEFORE they bring in their next mon. Just a little positive trade of damage that's always nice.

This spread also allows you to outspeed Specially defensive heatran (obviously you need to scout this one first) even if they're running 68 speed (is that a thing?).

36+ Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 186-222 (48.1 - 57.5%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is a slightly more rare situation (actually during Aegi days, this was absolutely huge since you ran EQ instead) but spdef heatran is a son of a bitch for a lot of slow teams. On either set, heatran cannot grab a kill:
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Chesnaught: 272-324 (71.5 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So you can attempt to trade through. You really shouldn't attempt this unless heatran comes in at 70% and you don't need Chesnaught any more (fear of burn). But mostly, if heatran has some chip damage down (which isn't uncommon), you can go for a nice burst.


This set is different from the actual tank set. It's an offensive tank that carries spikes to setup when you've generated enough pressure that you know your opponent has nothing better to do but switch. In this way, it circumvents one of Chesnaught's listed weaknesses (taunt). Use this set even in practice and I bet you you'll never be bothered by taunt. Your primary objective is just to blast attacks at shit that thinks it should be in against you and then set hazards if they can't come against you again.

Oh and the second threat of Mega Sableye?

36+ Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 118-139 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Get ANY chip damage onto Mega Sable and he's gone. 10-20% missing because you forced a switch earlier and Sable is straight up useless to guard you. This is compared to:

0 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 103-123 (33.8 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Where you need 20% min to take him out and 32% max missing to secure.


I think that the fact that this set does clear out Azumarill and Rotom-W so well after just a bit of damage is a draw enough to definitely consider it. You use him for the same primary reasons you'd use defensive chesnaught (Eq block, bisharp block, spiker), but in this case you add Azumarill and Rotom-W check along with offensive presence. He does lose a bit of bulk but in practice he's able to force more switches and allow more use for one turn leech seed trades. I've run Chesnaught on a great deal of teams since XY and this is the set I think I've used since after my first team. The defensive set just doesn't cut it for me, and whenever I see Chesnaught sitting at C- on a viability thread, I can't help but wonder if the set used isn't the issue.

I don't think this should be his primary set because it does require a bit more forethought and scouting to make sure your speed is actually where you think it is (rotom-w you need to check for a scarf first even if rare, heatran you need to check moveset to confirm/deny spdef spread). However, the reward to this set is, in my opinion, far higher. It depends on how high you value the outspeeds and extra power, but in particular the absolute knowledge that you can kill Azumarill regardless of set is huge.

 

[DennisEG]

I think that HP Bug should be removed. I don't actually see what it can do over HP Electric/Icy Wind. Bug has pretty bad coverage anyway.

I don't see a point with including LO in this set. The only reason I would use LO Keldeo is if it carries a utility move like Taunt or Toxic. Losing HP and power unnecessarily, especially for a mon with nice raw bulk for the choice of switching between your moves (that don't have even have great coverage) is really not worth it imo, and I think people can agree with this.

Im agree with almost you said except what i quote, in first place HP Bug should be slashed or at least mentioned in moves, as hits Starmie, Slowbro, Lati@s, and the most important thing despite being uncommon Celebi. All of those are common switch ins to Keld in comparison with HP Electric that hits another things but in a more puntual way such as Azu and Gyarados, keep in mind that this last mon are in risk of getting burn so are very uncommon switchins or last resort ones. That's why the order on the slashed section.

The other point is LO, and yes there is a point of slash that. The point is simply more power to secure 2hko's and the ability of switch out moves; For example it had a high chance of 2hko slowbro with HP bug/HP electric while ebelt doesnt. As you said maybe would be more beneficial to run an utility move combined with LO but the true is you always would need the coverage move as Keldeo should be used to break teams immediatly rather than a passive way with Toxic, and you would use Taunt against switch ins of Keldeo which you risk being hit by a supper effective move; for example lets say you dont pack LO and you run Taunt, you scald a slowbro switch in and its low on health you can easily Taunt it as you predict a recovery move but still would have enough health to take another hit(because you run icy wind as coverage move) so it would be a 50/50 between him switch in or attack you. So this scenario would be ten times more easy if you run LO with HP bug/electric so you will have the upper hand on predict the switchin or him stay in and be 2hko.
An utility move is always nice and could be used and certain but rare cases, so is enough mention in other options as it is indeed a valid option but LO is almost mandatory unless you wanna surprise somebody with an Ebelt set.

 

[DennisEG]

Was checking the Talon analysis and i feel like the sets should be re-ordered to SpD > Bulky SD > Offensive SD > CB

 

[Martin]

Can we just unlist CB? The set is horrifically bad and it's just basically impossible to justify on any serious team nowadays.

 

[kumiko]

re: Chesnaught - Ajwf

I fail to see the justification for using this set over the standard; sure, outpacing or getting guaranteed kills on some select threats is nice, and outpacing / OHKOing Azumarill can be crucial for some teams, the immense drop off in bulk on Chesnaught completely changes the role of what it does. I don't see a way to find a way to justify this set on a team. What does it even beat? Landorus-T U-turns out and you can't even Spiky Shield it, Excadrill and Bisharp both can OHKO you with any form of chip + hazards, and without Spiky Shield you go from somewhat unreliable recovery to completely unreliable recovery. While I do think a faster spread / a spread with some attack could warrant a mention, I don't think this set has the team justifications to get a writeup.


re: Keldeo and Talonflame

I agree it should have some changes made, will talk over details with the QC team, thank you for bringing them up. CB is definitely not going to have a set on Talonflame anymore fwiw.

 

[Snoo]

Was checking the Talon analysis and i feel like the sets should be re-ordered to SpD > Bulky SD > Offensive SD > CB

Agreed.

I also feel that the CB set should be removed due to the fact that Talonflame can't get recovery being locked into one move, and weaken by Stealth Rock.

Also the Starmie's analysis should be re-ordered as well. Utility > Offensive. :]

 

[HailFall]

these are some things ive noticed before while looking at the analyses that i think should be changed

Tornadus-T
On torn-t's av set, i dont really think focus blast should be slashed with superpower and heat wave. Its said that it hits rotom "quite hard" but in reality it only does around 10% more than hurricane to it.

calcs

160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 70-83 (23.1 - 27.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
160 SpA Tornadus-T Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 102-121 (33.6 - 39.9%) -- 34.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It also mentions doing more damage to mega manectric (which it certainly does) but i'm not sure that alone is enough to warrant it being slashed there.

I also think the slashes in the second move should be re ordered like this: Heat Wave / Superpower / Focus Blast (if it is still slashed) as not inviting stuff like ferro and bulky mega zor in is always nice, and at least personally ive seen heat wave used significantly more often on AV variants. Torn should be u-turning on ttar regardless unless youre sure its not chople berry, and heatran is annoyed by losing its lefties.

As for torn's life orb set, i think the second move's slashes should be Superpower / Heat Wave / Focus Blast as the extra power behind those hurricanes makes it so stuff like ferrothorn is much less inclined to attempt to take advantage of you. I believe focus blast should stay on this set as the extra power from life orb lets it actually 2hko rotom-w on the switch, but it should still be slashed last as its more of a lure than anything else.

Scizor
On mega scizor's analysis for the bulky sd set, i see really no reason why not to invest 44 physdef evs to avoid the 2hko from mega lopunny's high jump kick, seeing as taking 28 evs out of attack doesnt do much of anything to begin with as the analysis says its just where the leftover EVs are put. i really think the standard spread should be changed to 248 HP / 16 Atk / 44 Def / 200 SpD or even just 248 HP / 60 Def / 200 SpD like the defog set. Like quite frankly running only 16 defense EVs seems, plainly put, inefficient.

Charizard
In the overview, it mentions tailwind on zardx which is no longer on any set or even mentioned in other options so this should probably be removed. In addition, similarly to the mega altaria analysis, the overview somewhat overhypes these mons as neither is quite as amazing as they used to be, the metagame being so prepared for them.

for zardy, the set details say "If using a Modest nature, a spread of 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe provides some bulk while still outspeeding neutral-natured maximum Speed Kyurem-B.". Theres literally zero reason not to run max speed and tie with other neutral natured base 100s like mega medicham and that bulk does next to nothing for you tbh. i really think this sentence should be removed.

Theres also the same spread with the set for SD zardx, which imo should just run max for the same reasons.

Another part of the set details for zardy i really dont like is this: "Note that Fire Blast is best used with a Timid nature and Flamethrower is best used with a Modest nature, as the high power of Fire Blast makes up for the decrease in power by not using a Special Attack-boosting nature; conversely, when using a Modest nature, Mega Charizard Y can afford to use a slightly weaker move." This is really not something i can get behind because besides the fact that running modest zardy isnt that great as it is, modest flamethrower is weaker than timid fire blast

calcs

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 160-190 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 144-171 (22.4 - 26.6%) -- 22.5% chance to 4HKO

I think people probably see the issue with this but yeah youre sacrificing both your speed tier and power for the sake of just not missing with fire blast. This is definitely not something i can get behind and as such i really think this should be removed from the description as well.

I think flamethrower should be unslashed on zardy as you miss out on some pretty important benchmarks with it such as OHKOing landorus-t after rocks 100% of the time, and having a 75% chance to ohko kyurem-b.

calcs

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T in Sun: 306-361 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T in Sun: 373-441 (97.6 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B in Sun: 309-364 (79 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B in Sun: 375-442 (95.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

I guess this isnt the biggest deal in the world but i consider those significant benchmarks at least so my view is it should be unslashed. this is probably the most subjective of my (idk what to call these.. requests? criticisms?), so this is just my opinion on the matter.

Finally, I think modest shouldn't be slashed on zardy because the extra speed on it with timid is really important to beat some common stuff right now like adamant medicham and hasty kyu-b (neither of which is fun to switch into so its unlikely you have something that really wants to come in on these mons). In addition to this, tying with other base 100s like mega gardevoir, manaphy, and victini is always important (we all know how dangerous it is to give manaphy free turns by switching), and a modest nature doesnt hit any particularly relevant power benchmarks as far as i'm aware.

Although these have a bad reputation for being seen quite a bit low ladder, ancient power and dragon pulse probably arent so terrible that they dont even deserve a mention in other options for zardy, as either can be run over roost to smack talonflame or latis on the switch respectively. Hidden power ice also isnt terrible as it lets you deal significant damage to altaria, latis, and dragonite.

Sceptile
On the all out attacker set on mega sceptile's analysis I really disagree with focus blast being slashed with hidden power fire. The justification given is that running it allows you to tie with mega beedrill, however this is hardly relevant enough to warrant a slash imo.

 

[bludz]

Scizor spread was something I talked to some guys about editing in CMS but ive been gauging what spread to use. I think 200 SpD is too much

Agree on TornT, Focus Blast is dookie. Same with Sceptile.

Disagree on the ZardY stuff personally

 

[Ajwf]

re: Chesnaught - Ajwf

I fail to see the justification for using this set over the standard; sure, outpacing or getting guaranteed kills on some select threats is nice, and outpacing / OHKOing Azumarill can be crucial for some teams, the immense drop off in bulk on Chesnaught completely changes the role of what it does. I don't see a way to find a way to justify this set on a team. What does it even beat? Landorus-T U-turns out and you can't even Spiky Shield it, Excadrill and Bisharp both can OHKO you with any form of chip + hazards, and without Spiky Shield you go from somewhat unreliable recovery to completely unreliable recovery. While I do think a faster spread / a spread with some attack could warrant a mention, I don't think this set has the team justifications to get a writeup.

I'm not sure if something is lost in translation here, but there's nothing true about that ohko part.

252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chesnaught: 164-192 (43.1 - 50.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

That's the absolute max I ever expect to take from Excadrill, and I don't ever see that damage. 38-46 is the non-ada set, and you OHKO back with drain punch.

Bisharp is even worse off to you:

252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chesnaught: 140-165 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

So no, they're not OHKOing you... Exca might be able to 2hko you, but that's rare (6% on rocks, 6% on lefties, and max roles both times to 50.5 on an ada set?)

The set isn't a wall. Nor is his max/max spread, neither do that well. His strength is in trading, as are most tanks. Spiky Shield is worthless and that's why it's barely worth mentioning as a slash on the primary set. Most tanks/stall mons don't run protect because you're just giving away more momentum.

To note you aren't concerned with killing Landorus (in much the same way Skarmory isn't concerned about killing Landorus), but the speed set also outspeed defensive variants. It can U-turn out if offensive but you're still doing your job. Neither set stops Lando from U-turning so this isn't a particular downside of the set. The potential outspeed was stated in the other thread for reasons that you could spike down before another mon is brought in or finish a low lando before it leaves.

Yes, I agree this set changes Chesnaught's role. I also see that it contradicts your last sentence (no justification for writeup) and also assert that trying to give chesnaught unlimited bulk forges him into a worse Skarmory. Look at what Skarmory and Chesnaught wall, and what they carry. Both are normally carrying spikes, are EQ checks (lando-t, Ches can take Garchomp to an extent), are capable Bisharp and Breloom switches (you do have to go counter on Skarm for Bisharp) and Exca/TTar switches. Both get railed by fire (which is mentioned because fire blast ttar, and both lose to TFlame) and Skarmory then takes over by beating Scizor-M (counter again, but you can win PP stall if not knock off), MHera, MPinsir, Jirachi and LO Weavile.

Of the above threats, Chesnaught will handle Bisharp and Breloom more effectively. Everything else, he loses to skarmory. If you don't believe me, go side by side with your spread and a defensive skarmory. Pick counter or Brave Bird (i'd take brave bird) and just check what in the list Chesnaught actually has to differentiate itself from skarm defensively. I'm not even starting with the special sided shit that skarm can block off, but I think from this it should be fairly obvious that Chesnaught's slow set is simply inferior to skarm defensively in literally every aspect outside two mons. And I'm not sure how much you value beating Loom and Bisharp, but tangrowth does that just as easily, trading spikes for Regen tanking and the ability to choose if it wants to tackle special threats. And really, you're kinda just outclassed by Ferrothorn in this set...

Changing Chesnaught's role from what is listed ("Defensive tank"? Try "Worse Skarmory") to something actually useful (An offensive tank with hazard capabilities) shouldn't be viewed as a downside. Chesnaught doesn't exactly get time to spike often anyways, unless you're fine letting him die for them. You get your options vs something like Ferrothorn, but even then you kinda want to drain punch so ferro doesn't 1-up you by getting rocks down as well. Let's be real: Chesnaught DOESN'T spike vs many full health offensive mons. The offensive set at least allows him to function when he doesn't have the chance to spike, and if you're complaining about the lost bulk, remember that roughly a quarter of the damage differential between bulk and speed naught can be made up in drain punch recovery difference. The offensive set will be taking out two of OU's best Water types in Rotom-W and Azumarill, gives you the chance to actually serve as a revenge killer to multiple slower mons (read: Clefable, Heatran, [TTar]) and can even get a 2hko on Sableye-M with the barest of chip damage.

There are several clear advantages to investing speed, even at the cost of some bulk (you sacrifice 0 relevant 3hko to 2hkos for this). I personally see the variations as far more than enough to justify why someone could be interested in a spread like this.

I guess I should really just ask what a defensive chesnaught actually does that makes you think the defensive set is better? Because all I see from that set is Skarmory is a better defensive Chesnaught and sometimes, so is Ferrothorn.

 

[kumiko]

First of all, the majority of your post fails to explain why your set is better than the one onsite; you dedicated one paragraph from your post to this and you failed to provide any logical reasoning. Chesnaught has no business being the Pokemon you picked for your team to handle any of those threats aside from Tyranitar, and with the defense you took away it has no room even being used as an answer to Excadrill or Bisharp. A large majority of people have started to run max speed support Heatran, or at least fast, to handle the threat that is offensive Mega Scizor. Clefable is more than capable of shrugging off the damage Chesnaught deals, even with your updated spread. You fail to provide any justication for giving this Pokemon a slot on a team, much less a separate write up.

You have insane tunnel vision. Excadrill is very commonly seen running Swords Dance and Bisharp exclusively uses Swords Dance (any other set is absolutely awful). While they don't outright kill, even with your spread, the amount of chip that is needed to kill it becomes incredibly easy to achieve when you remove all of the defensive investment Chesnaught can have. I never once said "Excadrill can do take out 100% of Chesnaught's HP guaranteed," I said with chip damage it could, obviously, kill after a Swords Dance. While you take into account that Mega Sableye is going to be chipped as a reason to use this set, you ignore the fact how difficult it is to chip Sableye in some scenarios and how ridiculously easy it's going to be to whittle your set. And yes, a reason to use the current Chesnaught set is to beat Excadrill and Bisharp; already something more than yours.

I've read your post and still fail to see what your set does over defensive; it becomes incredibly easy to wear down, it doesn't switch into anything, and it gets up one or two layers before dying? I think it's pretty safe to say the only things you're legitimately going to be luring with this set are zero speed Heatran (which is bad and not as common as you seem to imagine) and Rotom-W.

I think Chesnaught is a horrendous Pokemon and doesn't currently have a place in OU in the metagame, and we won't be giving analysis' to shit 'Mons, but we also won't be taking down any analysis that our contributors have worked on because that is unfair to them.

It would be appreciated if you would not ignore logical and highly likely scenarios that will occur while using that set and proceed to post calcs that hold little to no weight and then proceed to call me lazy.

 

[Tinberz]

Charizard
In the overview, it mentions tailwind on zardx which is no longer on any set or even mentioned in other options so this should probably be removed. In addition, similarly to the mega altaria analysis, the overview somewhat overhypes these mons as neither is quite as amazing as they used to be, the metagame being so prepared for them.

for zardy, the set details say "If using a Modest nature, a spread of 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe provides some bulk while still outspeeding neutral-natured maximum Speed Kyurem-B.". Theres literally zero reason not to run max speed and tie with other neutral natured base 100s like mega medicham and that bulk does next to nothing for you tbh. i really think this sentence should be removed.

Theres also the same spread with the set for SD zardx, which imo should just run max for the same reasons.

Another part of the set details for zardy i really dont like is this: "Note that Fire Blast is best used with a Timid nature and Flamethrower is best used with a Modest nature, as the high power of Fire Blast makes up for the decrease in power by not using a Special Attack-boosting nature; conversely, when using a Modest nature, Mega Charizard Y can afford to use a slightly weaker move." This is really not something i can get behind because besides the fact that running modest zardy isnt that great as it is, modest flamethrower is weaker than timid fire blast

calcs

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 160-190 (24.9 - 29.5%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 144-171 (22.4 - 26.6%) -- 22.5% chance to 4HKO

I think people probably see the issue with this but yeah youre sacrificing both your speed tier and power for the sake of just not missing with fire blast. This is definitely not something i can get behind and as such i really think this should be removed from the description as well.

I think flamethrower should be unslashed on zardy as you miss out on some pretty important benchmarks with it such as OHKOing landorus-t after rocks 100% of the time, and having a 75% chance to ohko kyurem-b.

calcs

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T in Sun: 306-361 (80.1 - 94.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T in Sun: 373-441 (97.6 - 115.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B in Sun: 309-364 (79 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B in Sun: 375-442 (95.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

I guess this isnt the biggest deal in the world but i consider those significant benchmarks at least so my view is it should be unslashed. this is probably the most subjective of my (idk what to call these.. requests? criticisms?), so this is just my opinion on the matter.

Finally, I think modest shouldn't be slashed on zardy because the extra speed on it with timid is really important to beat some common stuff right now like adamant medicham and hasty kyu-b (neither of which is fun to switch into so its unlikely you have something that really wants to come in on these mons). In addition to this, tying with other base 100s like mega gardevoir, manaphy, and victini is always important (we all know how dangerous it is to give manaphy free turns by switching), and a modest nature doesnt hit any particularly relevant power benchmarks as far as i'm aware.

Although these have a bad reputation for being seen quite a bit low ladder, ancient power and dragon pulse probably arent so terrible that they dont even deserve a mention in other options for zardy, as either can be run over roost to smack talonflame or latis on the switch respectively. Hidden power ice also isnt terrible as it lets you deal significant damage to altaria, latis, and dragonite.

Fire Blast vs Flamethrower
I do get what you mean about the Flamethrower part but what I want to talk about is the advantage of Flamethrower. What Flamethrower does > Fire Blast is really about the 'spammable' issue. I personally prefer to run Timid Zard Y (paranoia) and ofc I run Fire Blast. However, the disadvantage of this is that every time I want to click Fire Blast, I have to go through the probabilities in my head and think whether that is my best play.
The advantage of Flamethrower, though, is that you don't have to think twice to click that move (if you know it kills). You don't even have to be worried about getting PP Stalled out. Also, I doubt a Neutral speed nature even loses out on much. Neutral speed nature lets Positive Base 88s and above outspeed you. Basically Driller and above. However, most of the stuff there wouldn't even run Jolly. Adamant Drill is probably the most common Sand Driller and Jolly ones are usually Scarfed/Balloon so you know. Offensive Lando-T is one that you rarely see and you don't see KyuB often too so the speed drop isn't too much of a big deal. I think the spammability of Modest Flamethrower makes Modest Zard Y an option to consider.

Miscellaneous
Just wanna say that Ancient Power can be Roost-stalled by Talon so HP Rock is better.
An additional suggestion: Earthquake can be considered.

The rest of your stuff make a lot of sense.

 

[Ajwf]

Edit: this is long. Aside from the obvious, am editing in show/hide.

First of all, the majority of your post fails to explain why your set is better than the one onsite; you dedicated one paragraph from your post to this and you failed to provide any logical reasoning. Chesnaught has no business being the Pokemon you picked for your team to handle any of those threats aside from Tyranitar, and with the defense you took away it has no room even being used as an answer to Excadrill or Bisharp. A large majority of people have started to run max speed support Heatran, or at least fast, to handle the threat that is offensive Mega Scizor. Clefable is more than capable of shrugging off the damage Chesnaught deals, even with your updated spread. You fail to provide any justication for giving this Pokemon a slot on a team, much less a separate write up.

You have insane tunnel vision. Excadrill is very commonly seen running Swords Dance and Bisharp exclusively uses Swords Dance (any other set is absolutely awful). While they don't outright kill, even with your spread, the amount of chip that is needed to kill it becomes incredibly easy to achieve when you remove all of the defensive investment Chesnaught can have. I never once said "Excadrill can do take out 100% of Chesnaught's HP guaranteed," I said with chip damage it could, obviously, kill after a Swords Dance. While you take into account that Mega Sableye is going to be chipped as a reason to use this set, you ignore the fact how difficult it is to chip Sableye in some scenarios and how ridiculously easy it's going to be to whittle your set. And yes, a reason to use the current Chesnaught set is to beat Excadrill and Bisharp; already something more than yours.

I've read your post and still fail to see what your set does over defensive; it becomes incredibly easy to wear down, it doesn't switch into anything, and it gets up one or two layers before dying? I think it's pretty safe to say the only things you're legitimately going to be luring with this set are zero speed Heatran (which is bad and not as common as you seem to imagine) and Rotom-W.

I think Chesnaught is a horrendous Pokemon and doesn't currently have a place in OU in the metagame, and we won't be giving analysis' to shit 'Mons, but we also won't be taking down any analysis that our contributors have worked on because that is unfair to them.

It would be appreciated if you would not ignore logical and highly likely scenarios that will occur while using that set and proceed to post calcs that hold little to no weight and then proceed to call me lazy.

I editted my post before you posted for the exact reason that the wording (calling it lazy) came off as more offensive than I meant to come across. Yes most of my justification for Chesnaught was in the discussion thread (and not here further up the thread). I didn't feel like restating it because the thread doesn't get much activity and I figured anyone reading either thread would see that post by natural progression. My statement that Chesnaught is a worse defensive skarmory is mostly a counterpoint to you saying these two sets somehow aren't different enough in their roles. Maybe the fact that I've been so in love with what Chesnaught can do and the reason people haven't found much success with it is the set? Because with the amount of usage I've put into him on multiple different teams since ORAS began leads to one of two natural conclusions: This set is actually decent/good or I'm a really bad researcher. I strongly doubt the second because I've pulled multiple different teams with Chesnaught and found him to be consistently helpful where he's supposed to be (a Defensive Bisharp check, all encompassing Azumarill check, a lure for R-wash, a stop to most darks not named Weavile).

When you say Chesaught has no business handling any of the mons I mentioned, I take this as an argument against defensive spread. TDK, what I referred to is solely what Chesnaught takes offensively, or should take via typing. If defensively Chesnaught has no business there, I think you're proving my point because what I'm working for isn't a defensive set. Feel free to add to this list but let's just knock off the physical metagame:

List of BL/OU Physical mons. No mixed

Azumarill CB, Azumarill BD, Bisharp, Breloom, ZardX, Dnite, Excadrill, Chomp, Gliscor, Jirachi, Landorus-T, Loppunny-M, MMedi, MMetagross, MPinsir, MScizor, TFlame, Weavile, Diggersby, Gyara-M, MGallade, Hawlucha, Mhera, Scoli, Starraptor, CB Terrakion, Victini.

I'll color code them What Neither Can Handle, What Ches Exclusively Handles, What Skarm Exclusively Handles, and What Both Handle. Any set given two colors (Blue+Mon specific) would be saying that colored mon does noticeably better here. To "handle" in this scenario is to wall/stop with SR up, and assumes 1.) Full HP, 2.) You'd be looking for Ches/Skarm to cover this threat (optimal set). If you want to argue point 2, I'd point out 1 is an even larger favor for Chesnaught. This is purely defensive chesnaught.


I take liberty that a few (Azum's CB set, Dnite, meta, weavile [though I have used skarm as my only counter to it in the past]) are way closer to the letter than they should be. But I hope this still demonstrates what I'm trying to point out: Skarmory defensively is better, has spikes and does mostly similar things. It doesn't differentiate itself. My argument for the offensive tanking spread is 2-fold here (as also hinted in the other thread):

1.) Defensive Chesnaught isn't exactly good. It can't spike easily vs many of the above threats because the bulk isn't sufficient, invested or not.
2.) Running speed does not lose your covering of a mon that you already had, but picks you up a few mons when checking.

I think the second point is where you're getting caught up with my argument. This chesnaught spread is not meant to sit in and take a beating. The defensive one can't sit and take a beating, it just sits for a bit longer. I aimed for a more proactive set and took a middle ground between something like Conkeldurr and Tangrowth in form of tanking. I think what defensive chesnaught is meant to do is stretching too far towards being a wall. Chesnaught simply cannot do that, as I'm trying to show above. Yes, I'm not using defensive mons, where Chesnaught picks up more ins. But it's not like there's a sizable difference between my chesnaught set vs a ferro and a defensive chesnaught set vs a ferrothorn.

Foreword: Both sets beat Bisharp 70% of the time (iron head flinch). The difference is HP you come out with.

On Bisharp

I realize both run SD. I've used my set in practice for over a year now, if it didn't handle that, I'd have adjusted some of the speed to creep azumarill's general bd set and invest back into bulk. Bisharp at +2 is a 70% win for either one in any situation. If Iron Head Flinches, you lose.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 208-246 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It doesn't matter your investment. You OHKO back on either set and heal 136 HP (36%, but 42% w/lefties). With this set, you're somewhere at 70-80% left if you've won that. Mine goes lower, to 55-65%. Yes I understand there's a noticable bulk difference, but I want you to understand that the outcome is the same. Both sets win in this situation at a 70% rate, and if Bisharp doesn't boost, it'd be better for my set since he won't take the extra damage doubled out (technically, you don't want to risk the flinch either way so both sets kinda prefer to not risk the hax). Does it mean you have to play a bit safer? Sure. I have a leniency that's about half as much. But I'm also playing mine as an offensive tank, so if I see bisharp I'm going to save him for it. Whereas a defensive tank will be forced into more situations to have to be on the field taking chip damage. Yes it take 30% prior (just over) to be in range of a 2hko, but I think the issue of getting KO'd here would be equally as common.

For Exca: Offensive tank from full wins 66% to Def winning somewhere between 25-50%. I could be wrong about Defensive win% but it won't be higher. Obviously changes with damage. The rate is determined by 94% to survive the +2*70% chance to not flinch on power exca. After that, Exca either dies or dies finishing Chesnaught.

Rate on other is Flinch rate * flinch rate *50% for middle roles (high dead, low alive? I'm actually not certain since this requires both mons to role about 50% where one can role high and the other role low. Anyways. If they both do relative highs or relative middle ranges, Exca should die but so will Chesnaught.

On Excadrill

A +2 Excadrill actually has a chance to kill either set. My set has 2 conditions to win: The 6.3% OHKO max roll doesn't hit on adamant Excadrill and I either A.) Don't min roll or B.) have 10% damage done to excadrill. In those cases, the recoil damage makes sure Excadrill falls.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Chesnaught: 324-382 (85.2 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
36+ Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 290-344 (80.3 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Regardless, Excadrill will die facing off my Chesnaught set unless he rolls that high roll (or flinches, but situation destroys both sets). This is incredibly slim countering, but I think I need to include the fact that defensive chensaught by virtue finds itself in a similarly bad spot.

(Damage numbers actually relevant here, bear with them).
0 Atk Chesnaught Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 258-306 (71.4 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(258, 260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288, 290, 294, 296, 300, 306)

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 242-285 (63.6 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(242, 243, 247, 250, 251, 255, 257, 261, 263, 266, 269, 273, 274, 278, 281, 285)

So this is a bit long-winded but the issue here is Chesnaught needs to heal up enough to get to take the second hit if he can't KO. It should be noted that he can trade out with the same conditions as mine, but he dies in the process (10% prior or no min roll).

Exca deals 69% (median), which is 261 damage off Chesnaught. Chesnaught's total HP is 380, so you're left with 119. Chesnaught deals median back (Looks to be 77%). 278 damage dealt, heal is 139. Chesnaught has 258, which is 67%.

Obviously you can adjust this any way you want but that means that Excadrill has about a 50% chance to KO (and die to recoil? 20%+our 77% gives him one more hit, but die from recoil is pretty likely) given normal roles. High/low one side or the other, but needless to say it is shaky regardless of set. Factor the flinch rate and you kinda realize that most of the time you don't keep Chesnaught in once Exca SDs.

Alright so a bit side tracked.

The set's objective is to be a tanky damage dealer. The set gives it the ability to pick off mons that are otherwise a huge pain in the ass by outrunning them but also allow him to be used as a check to ground types and dark types. He's a tank in the truest since of the word: Relies on bulk and damage equally. What advantages does he have? He is the only defensive grass type to be able to guarantee Azumarill's bd set will not sweep you outside Leafstorm Celebi (Giga Drain does over 50, but not over 75%). He does have to check it, but he's also a one-size fits all Azumarill check, which makes him one of only two mons used by stall to do it (venu-mega being the other). Taking care of Rotom-W is not unique to stall but actually is rather annoying for a lot of defensive grass types not named Amoonguss to do. Tangrowth can, but gets burned and needs two hits to do it (maybe more, I forget if pain split is enough to stop the second giga from KO'ing. Regardless, Rotom-W still gets the chance to switch, have a burn on you and abuse Chansey's fatness with a pain split).

The spikes aren't used vs offensive teams, which is something I found true on bulky chesnaught (I have used 252/252 before, just not since Aegi left). This isn't the biggest loss because the teams that can stop him from having time to do it are also the ones that give you games fast enough where spikes generally aren't determining factors. Vs defensive teams, he's as much a guarantee as bulky ches is for spikes, if not a little more due to the added damage range to snipe at Sableye. My set just acknowledges the fact that it is nearly impossible to find time for Chesnaught to spike vs teams that can pressure you and saves them for a rainy day.

But lastly, vs slower teams this set is actually way better (so where Chesnaught actually does better in the first place, this maximizes that):

Slowbro and Clef calcs. TlDR Offensive stats do damage

36+ Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 163-193 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(outspeeds, so gets 2hits off as opposed to speed tie).
0 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 144-171 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(two turns, if you win second speed tie, damage difference is 10%, where I WILL kill from 74% (lefties), this set doesn't have a for-sure 2hko without max rolling).

I don't think the prior damage (or future, if you're forced to fodder) is too much to ask for to finish a clefable. It can't OHKO (gets to 60%) and you don't die to recoil. And most stall teams do have some issue with a potential CM Clef (since stall teams end up having a lot of SpA as opposed to physical attacks), a physical damage threat is actually really nice.

0 Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 186-222 (47.2 - 56.3%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
36+ Atk Chesnaught Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 210-248 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This one's about as important as the hits on Clef, maybe a bit more. You make sure you get that 2hko or even if he leaves, switchin takes the brunt and Slowbro is still down roughly 20% more HP than the last time he took the fight. While you can say most bros won't stay in, it's tempting to try psyshock +slack off vs the possibility of no woodhammer (and one that might not kill anyways).

So I'll quit at that. TL:DR Is basically:

Chesnaught should look to tank, not wall. Neither set is really good vs adamant Excadrill. Mine's much better vs slower teams, which is where Chesnaught would shine, but is worse vs heavier hitters. Still can handle them, but is played as a check rather than a counter (Which is probably more advantageous for Chesnaught since it's pretty slim on the counters to begin with).

If you aren't going to try it (and by this, I absolutely don't expect you to), I understand that we'll keep having this go in circles. But Chesnaught is best when he gets to trade in one or two turns and take out the threat, similar to any tank. And I think my set allows Chesnaught to perform that a bit better.

 

[Eclipse]

Some comments about Zapdos:

- Are the 68 Special Attack EV's necessary at all on Zapdos anymore? You really would always rather invest these EV's into your bulk given how uncommon Pinsir is.

- Zapdos doesn't really need to use T-bolt anymore, it really should use Discharge or Volt Switch as opposed to T-bolt as the utility of 30% para's or free momentum is too good to pass up on a defensive electric type such as Zapdos.

- Does the Specially Defensive set really need to be its own set? It's literally the same set with a variation in EV's which could just be listed in the Set Details for the main set (in which case, you would need to title the set "Defensive" as opposed to "Physically Defensive")

These are just some comments I had about its analysis that I've had problems with for awhile that I wanted to address, feel free to give your own feedback on these comments though.

 

[HailFall]

Some comments about Zapdos:

- Are the 68 Special Attack EV's necessary at all on Zapdos anymore? You really would always rather invest these EV's into your bulk given how uncommon Pinsir is.

- Zapdos doesn't really need to use T-bolt anymore, it really should use Discharge or Volt Switch as opposed to T-bolt as the utility of 30% para's or free momentum is too good to pass up on a defensive electric type such as Zapdos.

- Does the Specially Defensive set really need to be its own set? It's literally the same set with a variation in EV's which could just be listed in the Set Details for the main set (in which case, you would need to title the set "Defensive" as opposed to "Physically Defensive")

These are just some comments I had about its analysis that I've had problems with for awhile that I wanted to address, feel free to give your own feedback on these comments though.

I mean one of the main reasons to use zapdos is that it beats pinsir, so i would think that yes, you should be running the 68 special attack and tbolt. Not sure on the specially defensive set as i havent used it much at all.

 

[bludz]

Ajwf

QC team is not adding that set. When a QC leader (TDK) is telling you that your justification for a set is failing to provide solid logic showing understanding of how the game is played at a reasonable skill level, then maybe it's time to consider that he's right, instead of stubbornly refusing to believe you could possibly be wrong.

 

[DennisEG]

For the other hand im agree with the comment on Zard Y about running max speed even if you running Modest nature, tie with base 100 neutral speed pokemon is nice and could be really usefull. Calcing those 40 hp evs doesnt help with any relevant mon that Zard y check/handle/take attacks. I calc against Scizor and psyshock/tbolt Lati@s and neither cannot hko (even +2 bp scizor after rocks) zard y.

 

[Q10jj34eeDnK]

The first sentence of Slowking's overview:

"Despite being slightly overshadowed by Slowbro, Slowking holds its own by being able to check powerful special attackers that Slowbro cannot, as well as reliably countering Grass Knot Mega Metagross."

Similarly, Reuniclus's overview.

"is hopelessly walled by one of the most common and threatening Pokemon in the tier in Calm Mind Mega Sableye"

"is hopelessly walled by one of the most common and threatening Pokemon in the tier in Calm Mind Mega Sableye"

"is hopelessly walled by one of the most common and threatening Pokemon in the tier in Calm Mind Mega Sableye"

"is hopelessly walled by one of the most common and threatening Pokemon in the tier in Calm Mind Mega Sableye"

 

[Alfalfa]

Gyarados' analysis mentions a lot of Pokemon that really are not that relevant anymore in OU - specifically Sylveon, Conkeldurr, Mega Beedrill, Dragalge, and Chesnaught. The entire moveset of Dragon Dance M-Gyara needs to be rewritten to include relevant targets - in Waterfall's case, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, and Mega Diancie (if not running Earthquake, though Heatran and Clefable are relevant targets), Earthquake Volcanion (clean OHKO on offensive Volc), Ice Fang Tangrowth, and the c&c section needs to replace mons like Chesnaught with Tangrowth, Choice Scarf Kyurem-B with Mega Alakazam, etc.

 

[DennisEG]

Gyarados' analysis mentions a lot of Pokemon that really are not that relevant anymore in OU - specifically Sylveon, Conkeldurr, Mega Beedrill, Dragalge, and Chesnaught. The entire moveset of Dragon Dance M-Gyara needs to be rewritten to include relevant targets - in Waterfall's case, Landorus-T, Tyranitar, and Mega Diancie (if not running Earthquake, though Heatran and Clefable are relevant targets), Earthquake Volcanion (clean OHKO on offensive Volc), Ice Fang Tangrowth, and the c&c section needs to replace mons like Chesnaught with Tangrowth, Choice Scarf Kyurem-B with Mega Alakazam, etc.

I updated targets.

e: did both below

 

[Q10jj34eeDnK]

Oop, another thing.

Zygarde's analysis, in the usage tips of the SubCoil set.

"SubCoil Zygarde has an great advantage against defensive teams, setting up easily on Pokemon such as Mega Venusaur, Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, bulky Mega Scizor, and Heatran."

What an mistake!

 

[Alfalfa]

http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/togekiss/

This analysis mentions Mega Gallade as a prominent threat multiple times when it isn't. I get that this was written during early ORAS, but those days are gone now and Mega Gallade is far from being a top threat. Such should be corrected by removing mentions of Mega Gallade.

 

[Magcargo]

For Mega Heracross, I believe that Guts deserves an SD / moves mentions. With Guts, Mega Heracross is far less crippled by status moves such as scald and will-o-wisp and can function as a much more reliable check to Mega Sableye. I don't think it deserves a full slash due to Heracross losing to ton of key status users (I.e Talonflame) but it still deserves a mention for teams that can't fit a more reliable Mega Sableye check. Note: Guts Heracross should alway be using Megahorn to give base Heracross a reliable Bug STAB and reliably 2HKO Mega Sableye.

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

I think the Salamence analyses for OU should be removed from the site, as it's unranked on the Viability Rankings and it is hopelessly outclassed, even as a Defogger. Seriously, use Latios, who hits harder, or Latias if you wish to use something bulkier. Either way, both can afford to run Life Orb to have power and hit harder than Mence.

 

[Kutscher]

I think that we should remove choice specs from kyurem-b analyses, it's totally outclassed by specs kyurem, also i think that regular kyurem could get an OU analyses, i know its bad and a C- rank mon, but a lot of others C- mina have their own analyses, and a kyurem analyses have more sense than a specs kyube analyses.

 

[Q10jj34eeDnK]

Mega Glalie and Mega Camerupt still have OU analysis's

They're both not ranked on the viability rankings, and rightfully too