-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
OU Analyses Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
What would you guys say to removing the Critdra set from Kingdra's analysis? It has absolutely 0 impact on the metagame, faces extreme competition as a water-type wallbreaker, and Kingdra would much rather be used on a rain team with its specs set.
Also, what do people think about krook? I've never considered using LO krook, and defensive krook is pretty bad rn without aegi and mawile. I'd remove it, personally.
Also, what do people think about krook? I've never considered using LO krook, and defensive krook is pretty bad rn without aegi and mawile. I'd remove it, personally.
Last edited:
eh, i made a team yesterday with defensive krook and got all the way up to 1432 before things went downhill. i think it does have competition from lando-t defensively, but fast Taunt is great with Intimidate, and Knock Off + Stealth Rock is still pretty good
offensive LO is just garbage though, I agree with it being removed
offensive LO is just garbage though, I agree with it being removed
I realize I don't post much anymore, but after seeing some RMTs where Scarf Landorus-T just barely outspeeds Mega Manectric and wondering where that trend came from..
Is there any reason as to why the spread in the Landorus-T analysis is 140 HP / 156 Atk / 212 Spd with an Adamant nature? Apart from the fact that Jolly Landorus-T pretty much gets every kill that it needs to get (Mega Gyarados and regular Gyarados with Superpower/Stone Edge after Stealth Rock respectively, Dragonite after Stealth Rock, Thundurus at full, 2HKO on Garchomp with Earthquake, 2HKO on Breloom with U-turn + Superpower or Superpower x2, you aren't 2HKOing most Mega Scizor either way, etc), the missing speed is crucial in so many matchups that I can't even begin to understand where that spread came from. Besides most DD Charizard (granted, these aren't too terribly common anymore but considering that a lot of offensive teams rely on their Choice Scarf user to revenge kill threats and considering how many setup opportunities Charizard gets against Pokemon such as Scizor, Heatran, Magnezone, Bisharp, Clefable and many, many more that's pretty damn important) it also outspeeds Timid/Jolly Mega Aerodactyl/Alakazam who are more than viable for their ability to not only outspeed Mega Manectric, but also Mega Evolve on Greninja and Lati@s in Alakazam's case without being forced to run Protect. Considering the massive threat level exerted by all three of those Pokemon, especially against offensive teams, and the relative unimportance of the extra power granted by an Adamant nature, I honestly see no reason to not run a Jolly nature. The extra bulk also seems rather... unnecessary, to say the least. While it gives you a solid check to Sand Excadrill, fact is that if Scarf Landorus-T is your sole Excadrill check you're probably going to lose against most well-built sand teams anyway. Not to mention that Landorus-T takes on Excadrill just fine unless you switch straight into Life Orb Iron Head. For those reasons, I'd like the standard spread to become 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spd with a Jolly nature. This allows you to not only outspeed pretty much every Charizard X after one boost (they need Jolly and a lot of investment to outspeed you at +1), as well as Jolly Gyarados at +1 and the occassional Choice Scarf Excadrill. Choice Scarf Excadrill is a terrible Pokemon, but the fact that it still exists and only requires 12 more EVs than breaking the pre-Scarf 300 Speed barrier for you to outspeed makes it seem more than worthwhile.
Also, remove all mentions of Hidden Power Ice because it's a terrible move. It 2HKOs Breloom, yes, but theres about 15 Pokemon that take on Breloom better than this not to mention that, as I mentioned before, you can easily 2HKO Breloom without HP Ice anyway if you so desire. It's not like Hidden Power Ice OHKOs Dragonite after SR or other Landorus either, and you'll have a hard time predicting the Gliscor. Either way, you're probably better off U-turning to something else regardless. After using it for a long time I also firmly believe that Superpower is superior to Knock Off in pretty much every situation, but I can accept that some teams would much rather have Knock Off for either Lati@s or Gengar (or to mess with items really), so I don't feel too strongly about reversing those two slashes.
Just my two cents.
oh and can we please remove the Dragon Pulse slash from Charizard-Y too, the dex puts it first because of the alphabetical order thing and that makes people think it might be good when it's complete garbage and shouldn't even be slashed (thanks to FLCL for letting me know!!)
Is there any reason as to why the spread in the Landorus-T analysis is 140 HP / 156 Atk / 212 Spd with an Adamant nature? Apart from the fact that Jolly Landorus-T pretty much gets every kill that it needs to get (Mega Gyarados and regular Gyarados with Superpower/Stone Edge after Stealth Rock respectively, Dragonite after Stealth Rock, Thundurus at full, 2HKO on Garchomp with Earthquake, 2HKO on Breloom with U-turn + Superpower or Superpower x2, you aren't 2HKOing most Mega Scizor either way, etc), the missing speed is crucial in so many matchups that I can't even begin to understand where that spread came from. Besides most DD Charizard (granted, these aren't too terribly common anymore but considering that a lot of offensive teams rely on their Choice Scarf user to revenge kill threats and considering how many setup opportunities Charizard gets against Pokemon such as Scizor, Heatran, Magnezone, Bisharp, Clefable and many, many more that's pretty damn important) it also outspeeds Timid/Jolly Mega Aerodactyl/Alakazam who are more than viable for their ability to not only outspeed Mega Manectric, but also Mega Evolve on Greninja and Lati@s in Alakazam's case without being forced to run Protect. Considering the massive threat level exerted by all three of those Pokemon, especially against offensive teams, and the relative unimportance of the extra power granted by an Adamant nature, I honestly see no reason to not run a Jolly nature. The extra bulk also seems rather... unnecessary, to say the least. While it gives you a solid check to Sand Excadrill, fact is that if Scarf Landorus-T is your sole Excadrill check you're probably going to lose against most well-built sand teams anyway. Not to mention that Landorus-T takes on Excadrill just fine unless you switch straight into Life Orb Iron Head. For those reasons, I'd like the standard spread to become 24 HP / 252 Atk / 232 Spd with a Jolly nature. This allows you to not only outspeed pretty much every Charizard X after one boost (they need Jolly and a lot of investment to outspeed you at +1), as well as Jolly Gyarados at +1 and the occassional Choice Scarf Excadrill. Choice Scarf Excadrill is a terrible Pokemon, but the fact that it still exists and only requires 12 more EVs than breaking the pre-Scarf 300 Speed barrier for you to outspeed makes it seem more than worthwhile.
Also, remove all mentions of Hidden Power Ice because it's a terrible move. It 2HKOs Breloom, yes, but theres about 15 Pokemon that take on Breloom better than this not to mention that, as I mentioned before, you can easily 2HKO Breloom without HP Ice anyway if you so desire. It's not like Hidden Power Ice OHKOs Dragonite after SR or other Landorus either, and you'll have a hard time predicting the Gliscor. Either way, you're probably better off U-turning to something else regardless. After using it for a long time I also firmly believe that Superpower is superior to Knock Off in pretty much every situation, but I can accept that some teams would much rather have Knock Off for either Lati@s or Gengar (or to mess with items really), so I don't feel too strongly about reversing those two slashes.
Just my two cents.
oh and can we please remove the Dragon Pulse slash from Charizard-Y too, the dex puts it first because of the alphabetical order thing and that makes people think it might be good when it's complete garbage and shouldn't even be slashed (thanks to FLCL for letting me know!!)
Last edited:
Yeah Krookodile isn't really worth the slot nowadays. It doesn't have Aegislash to check anymore, so that niche is gone, and with Mega Mawile gone the offensive set has no niche right now. It's also manhandled by a lot of common Fairy- and Fighting-types in this metagame, so it struggles overall, and it's severely outclassed by Hippowdon, Gliscor, Landorus-T, and Mandibuzz for its bulky duties. It doesn't really have a niche anymore so I agree with removing its analysis.
CritDra was never really that good, just a pretty silly gimmick and nothing more.
Also, all of the current Landorus-T spreads for each of its sets are pretty bad, though I'm sure someone's got the dibs to revamp it iirc so yeah.
CritDra was never really that good, just a pretty silly gimmick and nothing more.
Also, all of the current Landorus-T spreads for each of its sets are pretty bad, though I'm sure someone's got the dibs to revamp it iirc so yeah.
both venu spreads should be changed, just want feedback real quick in case somebody has something else in mind.
for the offensive set: 192 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 60 Spe modest, which is rlly pretty much the standard spread. hits 210 which creeps cune, daunt would be listed as the reason for the exact number because daunt is 209.
for the defensive set: 248 HP / 116 Def / 48 SpD / 96 Spe bold. speed is for jolly azu (which is kinda rare but it's worth it as otherwise you lose to a flinch which is dumb as fuck or if venu is weakened etc, you want the insurance basically), daunt (which is gaining a bit of popularity recently and lethal vs these defensive teams that venu is on), and cune (i will creep another ev or so to outspeed rotoms to punish them if they try and vswitch out, can't put this in the analysis tho). spdef avoids the 2hko from ninja ice beam 99.6% of the time after rocks to which is kinda useful considering fewer are packing esens so then you actually beat them. def is for handling physical stuff blegh you know what i mean. it definitely helps to have that bulk, i wouldn't really go without it.
CrashinBoomBang is it really? lol. that definitely needs to be fixed. i run that exact spread but with def > hp cuz you only really take hits from physical things, there's no reason to have extra special bulk. i'll implement this right away.
for the offensive set: 192 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 60 Spe modest, which is rlly pretty much the standard spread. hits 210 which creeps cune, daunt would be listed as the reason for the exact number because daunt is 209.
for the defensive set: 248 HP / 116 Def / 48 SpD / 96 Spe bold. speed is for jolly azu (which is kinda rare but it's worth it as otherwise you lose to a flinch which is dumb as fuck or if venu is weakened etc, you want the insurance basically), daunt (which is gaining a bit of popularity recently and lethal vs these defensive teams that venu is on), and cune (i will creep another ev or so to outspeed rotoms to punish them if they try and vswitch out, can't put this in the analysis tho). spdef avoids the 2hko from ninja ice beam 99.6% of the time after rocks to which is kinda useful considering fewer are packing esens so then you actually beat them. def is for handling physical stuff blegh you know what i mean. it definitely helps to have that bulk, i wouldn't really go without it.
CrashinBoomBang is it really? lol. that definitely needs to be fixed. i run that exact spread but with def > hp cuz you only really take hits from physical things, there's no reason to have extra special bulk. i'll implement this right away.
Last edited:
yea that spread is rlly important tho
Alright, cool. I'll definitely use that spread - it's certainly much better than the one on the current analysis.
A couple of minor suggestions:
- Shed Shell should be slashed as an item on both of Skarmory's current sets due to the increased usage of magnezone.
- Leftovers should be slashed / mentioned in Set Details on Bulky SD Scizor, as its a viable on teams that want to use Bulky SD Scizor, but already have a pokemon occupying their Mega Slot.
I believe in that it is the writer's responsibility to keep their previously done analyses up to date. That being said the team options section for my completed Stallbreaker Talonflame analysis could be improved. Here is an updated version of it taken from http://www.smogon.com/dex/xy/pokemon/talonflame with changes in blue:
Do any QC members have any issues or suggestion regarding these changes?
Entry hazard removal from Excadrill, Latias, Latios, and Starmie is greatly appreciated as they can check various threats for Talonflame and have good defensive synergy. Latias's Healing Wish also can give Talonflame a second chance at stallbreaking if a stray Toxic hits it. Keep in mind when teambuilding that if you pick Latias, Latios, or Starmie as your Defogger or Spinner, like Talonflame either one is easily checked by Tyranitar. Pokemon that resist Electric- and Water-type attacks such as Amoonguss, Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, and Raikou are good teammates. Even though Talonflame can stall out some of Heatran's specially defensive sets, it is highly recommended that you run a Heatran check such as Keldeo, Terrakion, or Garchomp alongside it. Stealth Rock support is extremely helpful due to the amount of switches Talonflame forces, so Pokemon such as Hippowdon and Landorus-T make good teammates.
Do any QC members have any issues or suggestion regarding these changes?
Gonna edit this post with the Garchomp analysis later today, running a few final checks
You should post your own thread in the OU analysis subforum and I strongly advise you check out this thread, explaining the process an analysis goes through. To clarify, you shouldn't start with written paragraphs. Simply begin with bullet points and a skeleton. As the original writer of the Garchomp analysis, I can assure you that there will very likely be something that needs to be changed in terms of items, moves, move slashes, etc.--especially for a Pokemon that has as many sets as Chomper. Don't take this personally, as QC is largely a subjective process and there will always be at least a few small changes in every analysis. Good luck, and if you need any help with it, let me know.
Oh, okay, thanks a ton. I had no idea about this process and I thought it has to be run by a mod first before thread submission.
Knock off should receive a moves mention on Mega Pinsir's analysis (possibly a slash, but i'm not sure). Knock off cripples 2 of Mega Pinsir's primary counters, Doublade and Skarmory, (former crippled by the loss of bulk, latter loses shed shell and becomes vulnerable to zone/goth), still deals decent damage against some of Mega Pinsir's other switch-ins such as Rotom-W and Thundurus, and cripples Choice Scarf users aiming to revenge kill pinsir like Landorus-T and Garchomp (although you have to hit them on the switch to prevent them from actually revenge killing pinsir).
I second Magcargo's statement. Being able to lure in Skarmory and Shed Shell for Magnezone to trap it and remove it from the match makes Knock Off a very noteworthy move in Pinsir's repertoire.
Jukain So the original Lando-I analysis needs some work or a revamp. It has Sludge Wave slashed first over Knock Off and Stealth Rock as a 4th move so I think you get the idea just from me saying that. I know you worked on the RP Lando-I set so I wanted to bring that to your attention. Might want to slap HP Ice on the RP lando set in other options of sorts. Earth Power, Knock Off, HP Ice, RP is a pretty lethal set in the current metagame right now with some minor team support and you break a lot of teams especially those infested with the Latis and Lando-T right now. So yeah that's all I've noticed for now.
Knock Off is honestly a bad move on Pinsir. Sure, it hits Mew and Slowbro kinda hard and removes Skarms Shed Shell, but what else is it doing? Nothing. Youre giving up CC, which is an important move to be able to hit TTar, Heatran, Rock Types, Rotom, etc. Either that, or SD, which has to be paired with EQ cuz Knock Off and CC are illegal together. I realize that this set is taking off and all, but it really contradicts thw whole point of Pinsir. Not to mention that you have to switch out anyways, and you now have a mon that has a 4x rock weakness, a terrible defensive typing, and a relatively useless moveslot that has to RK something. That last part is key, because it prevents Pinsir from going his job, which is sweeping slower teams. Id give it OO at best. Besides, whats stopping you from running Knock Off on another mon that Skarm walls?
Eh, CC isn't all that important IMO. You only really miss out on Heatran and TTar and kinda Rotom, and if you have another way to beat those (which you should on the kind of team you use this set) then you can definitely afford it just for the ability to completely ruin any non-Rhyperior stall. Knock Off absolutely deserves a slash, it's been seeing tons of usage on MagneSir teams and for good reason.
I've also been toying around with an Adamant-natured MPinsir quite a bit, any thoughts on this? You do miss out on Lando-I, Garchomp, and Jolly Zards (the first one is pretty major, not so much the last 2 since most Garchomp are sashed or scarfed anyway and most Zards don't run +Speed), but the extra damage means you wear down your switchins so much harder, and at the end of the day,that's what you want Pinsir to do. For example, you actually KO Thundurus-I after rocks with Return+Quick Attack. You deal at least 75% damage to Rotom-W with +2 CC, which means it only needs to switch into rocks twice over the course of the match and it's done for. You also OHKO Slowbro at +2 after Rocks which is pretty major. You also do better against stuff that oustpeeds you anyway, an therefore, have a better time sweeping after teams with +2 Quick Attack. For instance, you guarantee an OHKO on Greninja, and can OHKO Latios after rocks or on turn LO damage. IMO an Adamant nature has enough advantages over a Jolly one to deserve a slash.
I've also been toying around with an Adamant-natured MPinsir quite a bit, any thoughts on this? You do miss out on Lando-I, Garchomp, and Jolly Zards (the first one is pretty major, not so much the last 2 since most Garchomp are sashed or scarfed anyway and most Zards don't run +Speed), but the extra damage means you wear down your switchins so much harder, and at the end of the day,that's what you want Pinsir to do. For example, you actually KO Thundurus-I after rocks with Return+Quick Attack. You deal at least 75% damage to Rotom-W with +2 CC, which means it only needs to switch into rocks twice over the course of the match and it's done for. You also OHKO Slowbro at +2 after Rocks which is pretty major. You also do better against stuff that oustpeeds you anyway, an therefore, have a better time sweeping after teams with +2 Quick Attack. For instance, you guarantee an OHKO on Greninja, and can OHKO Latios after rocks or on turn LO damage. IMO an Adamant nature has enough advantages over a Jolly one to deserve a slash.
Autolosing to stuff like Timid M-Gard and all those things you mentioned is a pretty big deal imo. Sure you get some more power, but the fact that you now have to rely on the fact that they're using a neutral speed nature in some cases is really, just me personally at least, not a gamble I want to be taking. This logic you described is all assuming you made it to +2 in the first place and that you somehow worn down your opponents enough to actually make this happen. Getting potentially outpaced by something like Timid Zard Y or Lando-I is something I wouldn't want and if it was me I wouldn't even suggest it to new players due to the consequences of losing the speed game for a mon like M-Pinsir.
This Knock Off M-Pinsir is honestly a fad and CC is definitely important to maintain its wall breaking capabilities. At the very best it's last slash material and imo would just go on OO cause it's generally hitting only a couple of things that it would be useful on while CC covers much more useful ground.
Thunder Wave should be slashed with Fire Blast on SR Clefable. Without Thunder Wave, Clefable is set up bait or a free switch for Mega Charizard X, LO Gengar, any Heatran, especially offensive ones, Mew, Talonflame, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Venusaur, and Victini. Thunder Wave cripples many offensive switch-ins to Clefable and is much more spammable than Fire Blast, and not getting set up on by Mega Charizard X is huge for many offensive teams, not to mention not being a free switch in for LO Gengar, an extremely threatening Pokemon that is becoming more and more common. Also, Thunder Wave makes dealing with Pokemon that you barely wall easier, such as Jolly Mega Heracross for example, because instead of using Moonblast once and then dying, you can first use Thunder Wave and then spam Softboiled and wait for parahax to happen.
Gengar should have LO 3 Attacks + Taunt as a set, seeing as how it has been used to great success by some top players (looking at you, Hugo). What sets this set apart from the SubSplit set is that it beats CM Clef with SpD investment, and that it has a good chance of 2HKOing Mega Venusaur. Taunt also lets it hjnder slower stuff like Suicune from setting up on it, which is great.
Bulky SD Mega Scizor needs a revamp since Aegi's ban.
Personnaly I use the following spread : 248 HP / 100+ Atk / 116 Def / 44 SpD
Avoid 2HKO from LO Kyu-B and Adamant Excadrill, both after SR, and giving a jump point against Adamant Landorus-T (Jolly is better but Adamant is quite common). Most Heatran run some Spe EVs to avoid speed creeping fom Mega Scizor or outspeed Mega Venusaur and Suicune, so I don't think that speed creeping Heatran is useful.
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Mega Scizor: 126-149 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Mega Scizor: 127-150 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Mega Scizor: 135-159 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 133-157 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Personnaly I use the following spread : 248 HP / 100+ Atk / 116 Def / 44 SpD
Avoid 2HKO from LO Kyu-B and Adamant Excadrill, both after SR, and giving a jump point against Adamant Landorus-T (Jolly is better but Adamant is quite common). Most Heatran run some Spe EVs to avoid speed creeping fom Mega Scizor or outspeed Mega Venusaur and Suicune, so I don't think that speed creeping Heatran is useful.
252+ SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 44 SpD Mega Scizor: 126-149 (36.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Mega Scizor: 127-150 (37 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Mega Scizor: 135-159 (39.3 - 46.3%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 133-157 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock