OU Analyses Discussion Thread

[skies]

Hey guys, what do you think of Pangoro getting an analysis? I've been running just a Choice Band set with Superpower / Knock Off / Earthquake / [Gunk Shot or Parting Shot] with Mold Breaker and it's incredibly difficult to switch into. It's certainly not the most viable thing in the world, but it's a heavy hitter and a useful pivot. It's also got //ok// bulk, it's actually not horrible, and two other useful abilities, along with enough Speed to Speed creep a lot of defensive stuff (I just run 252/252 because got to be as fast as possible). Possibly in the future? Or not at all? Or right now?

Here's the set:

Choice Band Panda
########
name: Choice Band Panda
move 1: Superpower
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Gunk Shot / Parting Shot
ability: Mold Breaker
item: Choice Band
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant

I began using this in OU because Hollywood posted a thing in NU about Superpower and I thought it sounded kinda cool, kinda crazy. I ended up testing it and it's 100% more useful than Drain Punch because of its raw power. For example:

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 178-210 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Pangoro Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 133-157 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Superpower is so much stronger, it doesn't even require Iron Fist (which nothing else on this set needs). Mold Breaker Earthquake is really helpful to smack Rotom-W as they switch in. Knock Off is really strong, even stronger than Bisharp's thanks to the Choice Band effect. Gunk Shot is neat to hit Clefable on the switch and Parting Shot is a great pivotal move in general.

QC thoughts?

 

[Martin]

Hey guys, what do you think of Pangoro getting an analysis? I've been running just a Choice Band set with Superpower / Knock Off / Earthquake / [Gunk Shot or Parting Shot] with Mold Breaker and it's incredibly difficult to switch into. It's certainly not the most viable thing in the world, but it's a heavy hitter and a useful pivot. It's also got //ok// bulk, it's actually not horrible, and two other useful abilities, along with enough Speed to Speed creep a lot of defensive stuff (I just run 252/252 because got to be as fast as possible). Possibly in the future? Or not at all? Or right now?

Here's the set:

Choice Band Panda
########
name: Choice Band Panda
move 1: Superpower
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Gunk Shot / Parting Shot
ability: Mold Breaker
item: Choice Band
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant

I began using this in OU because Hollywood posted a thing in NU about Superpower and I thought it sounded kinda cool, kinda crazy. I ended up testing it and it's 100% more useful than Drain Punch because of its raw power. For example:

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 178-210 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Pangoro Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 133-157 (39.8 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Superpower is so much stronger, it doesn't even require Iron Fist (which nothing else on this set needs). Mold Breaker Earthquake is really helpful to smack Rotom-W as they switch in. Knock Off is really strong, even stronger than Bisharp's thanks to the Choice Band effect. Gunk Shot is neat to hit Clefable on the switch and Parting Shot is a great pivotal move in general.

QC thoughts?

I'm not QC, but I think that there is little reason to run Band Panda on the basis that Choice Scarf is so much better, and that Pangoro is neither fast enough or bulky enough to run Choice Band effectively in OU. If Pangoro were to get an analysis, it would have to be this set IMO:

Choice Scarf
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Drain Punch / Superpower
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Ice Punch / Gunk Shot
move 4: Gunk Shot / Parting Shot
ability: Iron Fist / Scrappy
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

The spread and Jolly is kinda required as Pangoro can outpace timid Thundy-I and OHKO with an Iron Fist-boosted Ice Punch, assuming there is no full para, of course. CB Panda is bad in the tier ATM, and Scarf is only around C/D-rank ATM as it is due to its glaring flaws (low speed stat, middling bulk, lack of power booster, suceptibility to Will-O-Wisp and (Mega) Sableye etc.). I would say that it should get an analysis, but a badgeholder-only one as it is a tough one to do.

 

[I like donkeys]

Requesting Slurpuff to get an analysis

So here's the thing, Slurpuff gets drain punch now. I'm pretty sure i don't need to explain myself but i'll do it anyway. Now some of Slurpuff's old checks/counters such as Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Magnezone, and physically defensive Chansey (to some degree), 5 incredibly common Pokemon mind you, are crushed by drain punch. Not only that but there is a long list of Pokemon that Slurpuff will happily munch on thanks to drain punch, all the while regaining health and making it much more difficult to revenge kill.
We all know that Slurpuff basically fucks everything bar a select few defensive and offensive threats. So a few calcs on drain punch alone seems necessary enough:

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 358-422 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 308-364 (87.5 - 103.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Don't forget these are full on max defense spreads which these Pokemon rarely use so most of the time its an OHKO even without rocks

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 460-542 (141.9 - 167.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Slurpuff's main problem is that it's out-classed by and often compared to other unburden and belly drummers such as Hawlucha and Azumarill mainly because they don't require team support to the same extent that Slurpuff does. However what Slurpuff does have over Hawlucha and Azumarill is the level of hurt he can dish out. Sure Slurpuff can only set up once unlike the other two and has a harder time setting up, but by golly once he does set up all hell breaks loose. A lot of the time Haw and Azu will take out a couple of mons before being taken out, but Slurpuff can cleanly take out 3, 4, and sometimes even 5 mons before being taken out and by then it's pretty much game.

Believe it or not puff can take priority hits surprisingly well barring the obvious bullet punch if you choose a more defensive spread too.

 

[skies]

I'm not QC, but I think that there is little reason to run Band Panda on the basis that Choice Scarf is so much better, and that Pangoro is neither fast enough or bulky enough to run Choice Band effectively in OU. If Pangoro were to get an analysis, it would have to be this set IMO:

Choice Scarf
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Drain Punch / Superpower
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Ice Punch / Gunk Shot
move 4: Gunk Shot / Parting Shot
ability: Iron Fist / Scrappy
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly

The spread and Jolly is kinda required as Pangoro can outpace timid Thundy-I and OHKO with an Iron Fist-boosted Ice Punch, assuming there is no full para, of course. CB Panda is bad in the tier ATM, and Scarf is only around C/D-rank ATM as it is due to its glaring flaws (low speed stat, middling bulk, lack of power booster, suceptibility to Will-O-Wisp and (Mega) Sableye etc.). I would say that it should get an analysis, but a badgeholder-only one as it is a tough one to do.

I really dislike Choice Scarf Pangoro in any tier honestly, especially in OU. I feel it lacks the power and sheer strength that Choice Band provides. You neglect to mention its Speed stat is just two points lower than Tyranitar, which can effectively run a Choice Band set. I'm not comparing the two in any way, but I feel like you're missing the brute power and //ok// Speed stat. It also isn't even able to revenge kill anything and it's somewhat weaker. When not running Choice Band:

252 Atk Pangoro Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 109-129 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 4.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pangoro Superpower vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 504-594 (78.5 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Just to list two things that show how much weaker it is when running Choice Scarf, it can't even OHKO Chansey with a base 120 power STAB move off of base 124 Attack. Yeah. I feel like you're also underestimating Pangoro's bulk quite a bit, it has the exact same Defense as Bisharp (when running through calcs, they're equivalent) and has a much better Special Defense stat than that of Bisharp. I do like Scrappy slash, however, as nailing Mega Sableye is pretty cool. So yeah. My thoughts on the whole Choice Scarf debate.

 

[AM]

If we're talking about Pangoro I just want to say it's not a necessity to run a scarf set and in all honesty Life Orb and Choice Band are very great options if not more viable due to its ability to wall-break much more efficiently while breaking such threats such as M-Sableye with ease. unfixable the set would be something along the lines of this btw.

Choice Band / Life Orb Attacker Pangoro
########
name: Choice Band Panda
move 1: Superpower / Drain Punch
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Gunk Shot
move 4: Parting Shot
ability: Scrappy
item: Choice Band / Life Orb
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant

There's not much reason to use Mold Breaker when Pangoros best trait is taking care of M-Sableye with Scrappy relatively easy with Band or Life Orb boosted Superpower. As far as where Pangoro would go it can fit on most builds outside of archetypes such as stall and it definitely isn't bad at all.

 

[Martin]

Ok. No to scarf then. Yeah, you've convinced me that it is worse than I thought it was.

If we're talking about Pangoro I just want to say it's not a necessity to run a scarf set and in all honesty Life Orb and Choice Band are very great options if not more viable due to its ability to wall-break much more efficiently while breaking such threats such as M-Sableye with ease. unfixable the set would be something along the lines of this btw.

Choice Band / Life Orb Attacker Pangoro
########
name: Choice Band Panda
move 1: Superpower / Drain Punch
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Gunk Shot
move 4: Parting Shot
ability: Scrappy
item: Choice Band / Life Orb
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant

There's not much reason to use Mold Breaker when Pangoros best trait is taking care of M-Sableye with Scrappy relatively easy with Band or Life Orb boosted Superpower. As far as where Pangoro would go it can fit on most builds outside of archetypes such as stall and it definitely isn't bad at all.

Just saying this, but Iron Fist with Ice Punch>Gunk Shot is also viable on Panda as it means that it isn't walled by Landorus-T.

 

[AM]

Ok. No to scarf then. Yeah, you've convinced me that it is worse than I thought it was.

Just saying this, but Iron Fist with Ice Punch>Gunk Shot is also viable on Panda as it means that it isn't walled by Landorus-T.

It wants Gunk Shot to break through Clefable and Azumarill. If Ice Punch goes anywhere it would be where Parting Shot is and even then that's pretty iffy when Parting Shot can just pivot out of Lando-T and go to an appropriate check/counter.

 

[skies]

If we're talking about Pangoro I just want to say it's not a necessity to run a scarf set and in all honesty Life Orb and Choice Band are very great options if not more viable due to its ability to wall-break much more efficiently while breaking such threats such as M-Sableye with ease. unfixable the set would be something along the lines of this btw.

Choice Band / Life Orb Attacker Pangoro
########
name: Choice Band Panda
move 1: Superpower / Drain Punch
move 2: Knock Off
move 3: Gunk Shot
move 4: Parting Shot
ability: Scrappy
item: Choice Band / Life Orb
evs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Adamant

There's not much reason to use Mold Breaker when Pangoros best trait is taking care of M-Sableye with Scrappy relatively easy with Band or Life Orb boosted Superpower. As far as where Pangoro would go it can fit on most builds outside of archetypes such as stall and it definitely isn't bad at all.

Hmm, I just enjoy Mold Breaker Earthquake because it has a ~56% chance to KO Rotom-W after SR, whereas Superpower will never OHKO even after rocks. But yeah, this set is good!

 

[AM]

Hmm, I just enjoy Mold Breaker Earthquake because it has a ~56% chance to KO Rotom-W after SR, whereas Superpower will never OHKO even after rocks. But yeah, this set is good!

You would need Jolly to outpace Rotom-W considering its standard spread hits the 219 benchmark while Adamant Pangoro would hit 215. I do see your point however I did want to point that out though as to consider the trade off with different natures.

 

[Alfalfa]

Requesting Slurpuff to get an analysis

So here's the thing, Slurpuff gets drain punch now. I'm pretty sure i don't need to explain myself but i'll do it anyway. Now some of Slurpuff's old checks/counters such as Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Heatran, Magnezone, and physically defensive Chansey (to some degree), 5 incredibly common Pokemon mind you, are crushed by drain punch. Not only that but there is a long list of Pokemon that Slurpuff will happily munch on thanks to drain punch, all the while regaining health and making it much more difficult to revenge kill.
We all know that Slurpuff basically fucks everything bar a select few defensive and offensive threats. So a few calcs on drain punch alone seems necessary enough:

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Heatran: 358-422 (92.9 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 308-364 (87.5 - 103.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Don't forget these are full on max defense spreads which these Pokemon rarely use so most of the time its an OHKO even without rocks

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 172 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 460-542 (141.9 - 167.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Slurpuff's main problem is that it's out-classed by and often compared to other unburden and belly drummers such as Hawlucha and Azumarill mainly because they don't require team support to the same extent that Slurpuff does. However what Slurpuff does have over Hawlucha and Azumarill is the level of hurt he can dish out. Sure Slurpuff can only set up once unlike the other two and has a harder time setting up, but by golly once he does set up all hell breaks loose. A lot of the time Haw and Azu will take out a couple of mons before being taken out, but Slurpuff can cleanly take out 3, 4, and sometimes even 5 mons before being taken out and by then it's pretty much game.

Believe it or not puff can take priority hits surprisingly well barring the obvious bullet punch if you choose a more defensive spread too.

Why would I use Slurpuff when I can use Azumarill, who hits a lot harder, and can still clean teams with a priority Aqua Jet? Sure, Belly Drum Azumarill is meant to clean, but it is not like Belly Drum Slurpuff is 6-0ing teams either. And just to show much stronger Azumarill is than Slurpuff:

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 360-424 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 259-305 (64.1 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 634-747 (156.9 - 184.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 177-209 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 100+ SpD Mega Scizor: 188-224 (54.8 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
48 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 218-258 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 433-511 (126.2 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Considering that both Skarmory and Slowbro are OU in usage, and that Jirachi is rising in usage, I think Slurpuff's lack of power is really significant, especially since it fails to acquire some key OHKOs. I will admit that Jirachi can outspeed and Paralyze Azumarill, but a +6 Aqua Jet does at least 78.7% damage to Specially Defensive Jirachi, meaning that with some hazard support, you can wear it down. Sure, Slurpuff has more speed, but Azumarill beats everything on offense aside from Venusaur, Celebi, and Talonflame fine. In my eyes, Slurpuff is still outclassed, and still not worth an analysis.

 

[havokchomp123]

I feel that pangoro's niche comes in parting shot, which allows it's teammates to switch in safely and setup. Sure it doesn't do damage like volt switch or U-turn, however it does have it's own unique uses for team support. Of course, that niche wasn't good enough for pangoro to get in OU. However, pangoro now has access to a ton of great moves, such as knock off, gunk shot, drain punch, and the elemental punches giving it the movepool it desperately needed. Of course, pangoro isn't perfect. It has pretty mediocre bulk overall and it has a very poor speed stat, even with a choice scarf. Of course, i myself havent had enough experience with pangoro to say for myself if it should get an analysis, but I will say that pangoro shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[Albacore]

I find it laughable that people are arguing for giving Pangoro an analysis, but people think Mega Steelix is inviable even though it very blatantly has a niche over Mega Aggron.

Could you please explain what MSteelix's niche is because I don't see it? The only reason I would even consider using it over MAggron is if I'm running it alongside Hippowdon and for whatever reason want more power over the ability to take hits, and since these two cover pretty much the same threats I would never do that. (especially since afaik MAggron is only good on stall and defensive redundancy on that playstyle is pretty bad, and on Stall taking hits>hitting stuff genrally)

 

[Josh Morales]

Could you please explain what MSteelix's niche is because I don't see it? The only reason I would even consider using it over MAggron is if I'm running it alongside Hippowdon and for whatever reason want more power over the ability to take hits, and since these two cover pretty much the same threats I would never do that. (especially since afaik MAggron is only good on stall and defensive redundancy on that playstyle is pretty bad, and on Stall taking hits>hitting stuff genrally)

So it seems people are on the fenxe about giving Mega Steelix an analysis, judging that it's not in the analysis reservation index. I really think it deserves an analysis. Sure, it's nearly completely defensively outclassed by Mega Aggron, but Mega Steelix nearly completely offensively outclasses Mega Aggron and I think that definitely gives it a niche on sand teams. It also has better Special Defense too c:

I briefly said it there, and yeah Mega Aggron is best on stall, but it's quite obvious that Mega Aggron completely defensively outclasses Mega Steelix. However, it should also be obvious that Mega Steelix nearly completely outclasses Mega Aggron when used on a sand team(balanced, bulky offensive, your choice) not a stall team, and thus presents its niche. Again, it's blatantly a mediocre Pokémon when used to its full extent, but it's by no means inviable. Just look at the definition of a D-rank Pokémon in the viability rankings thread.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are either usable but have no real niche, or are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it.

D-rank is nothing to write home about at all, don't get me wrong, but it at least means that it's viable in the OU metagame and that should be enough to warrant an analysis.

 

[I like donkeys]

Why would I use Slurpuff when I can use Azumarill, who hits a lot harder, and can still clean teams with a priority Aqua Jet? Sure, Belly Drum Azumarill is meant to clean, but it is not like Belly Drum Slurpuff is 6-0ing teams either. And just to show much stronger Azumarill is than Slurpuff:

+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 360-424 (107.7 - 126.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 259-305 (64.1 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 634-747 (156.9 - 184.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 177-209 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 100+ SpD Mega Scizor: 188-224 (54.8 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
48 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 218-258 (68.5 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Mega Scizor: 433-511 (126.2 - 148.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Considering that both Skarmory and Slowbro are OU in usage, and that Jirachi is rising in usage, I think Slurpuff's lack of power is really significant, especially since it fails to acquire some key OHKOs. I will admit that Jirachi can outspeed and Paralyze Azumarill, but a +6 Aqua Jet does at least 78.7% damage to Specially Defensive Jirachi, meaning that with some hazard support, you can wear it down. Sure, Slurpuff has more speed, but Azumarill beats everything on offense aside from Venusaur, Celebi, and Talonflame fine. In my eyes, Slurpuff is still outclassed, and still not worth an analysis.

Actually, I have 6-0ed a couple of GOOD teams in the past with Slurpuff. But yeah you cannot expect Slurpuff to 6-0 teams, that shit just doesn't happen.

Here are all the viable OU Pokemon that Azumarill loses to after a BD:

Breloom, other Azumarill (that are faster, but this is a rare case), healthy Greninja, Rotom-W, Dragonite, Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn (if you lack superpower), Skarmory, (Mega)Latios, Sableye, healthy Mew, banded Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos, most defensive users of unaware, Celebi, Chesnaught to some degree, Volcanion(?), healthy Megagross, Klefki, Empoleon, Toxicroak, Tentacruel, Mega Aggron, healthy Magnezone, Mega Sceptile, plus anything with sturdy or focus sash still intact and anything that can live an aqua jet and inflict a burn.
Not only that but there are plenty of others that can weaken Azumarill to the point where another Pokemon can come in after the prior one faints and KO Azumarill. ESPECIALLY if Azumarill has been damaged the turn it BDs. 26+ checks.

To be fair, BD Azumarill is meant to be a late-game cleaner not a setup sweeper, so most of these Pokemon are assumed to be at a low enough health to be in OHKO range of aqua jet. But still, that is a LOT of checks. And it limits BD Azumarill to be a late game cleaner most of the time.

Now let's look at all the things Slurpuff loses too after BD (pokemon in bold are guaranteed full stops to Slurpuff in most situations, but the others are kind-of checks but not really)
(Mega)Scizor, Megagross, Sand rush Excadrill in sand, Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Mega Slowbro (believe it or not Slurpuff has an okay chance to OHKO regular Slowbro after rocks), banded Talonflame, Thundurus (prankster T-wave), scarf keldeo, scarf Kyurem-B, Mega Venusaur, Klefki, Mega Aggron, Sableye (not if you run facade) defensive unaware user, any powerful attacker with focus sash or sturdy still intact, and some other scarfed pokemon. 14+ checks.

Well well well, look at at this, turns out there are LOADS more Pokemon that can stop Azumarill than can stop Slurpuff. Not only that but Slurpuff can beat some of these checks 1 on 1 if his HP is high enough (albeit this doesn't happen often since the check is usually switched in immediately, but still shit happens), and some of his checks can only beat him if equipping a certain item. The banning of Mega Mawile and Aegislash help Slurpuff out a lot.

Slurpuff has his downsides though. When compared to Azumarill, Slurpuff is incredibly one-dimensional and predictable, is weaker offensively and defensively, lacks priority, and is a pain to set up.
But that certainly shouldn't prevent it from receiving an analysis. Blissey is outclassed by Chansey but is still viable and has her uses over her younger sister. Magneton is outclassed by Magnezone but is still viable and has it's uses over Magnezone.
Being outclassed does not automatically make a Pokemon unviable, unless a single Pokemon is outclassed in EVERY POSSIBLE ASPECT by another single Pokemon, which is certainly not the case with Slurpuff.

EDIT: Slurpuff may end up D+ at best, but it won't be rejected.

 

[havokchomp123]

Mega steelix's niche really isn't all that spectacular imo. Sure it sand teams have their positives, rock types get a free assualt vest for 5-8 turns, sand force gives mega steellix a life orb for 5-8 turns, and the opponent gets damaged slightly for... 5-8 turns. You see where i'm going with this. I'm not saying that mega steelix is bad nor is it's niche but the problem is that sand teams have been severly nerfed thanks to the weather nerf. Plus mega aggron benefits from the sand storm as well because he get's a special defense boost unlike mega aggron. On top of that mega aggron has filter to weaken fire and ground type attacks, more support options in thunder wave, and less weaknesses than mega steelix. I'm not saying that mega steelix shouldn't get an analysis, but from what I've gathered I see no reason to use mega steelix over mega aggron.

 

[Josh Morales]

Mega steelix's niche really isn't all that spectacular imo.

I actually completely agree, but a viable niche in the OU metagame is a viable niche in the OU metagame and that should warrant an OU analysis.

Sure it sand teams have their positives, rock types get a free assualt vest for 5-8 turns, sand force gives mega steellix a life orb for 5-8 turns, and the opponent gets damaged slightly for... 5-8 turns. You see where i'm going with this.

If you're trying to indicate some kind of point, no I don't see where you're going with this because you did nothing more than list possible benefits of sand.

I'm not saying that mega steelix is bad nor is it's niche but the problem is that sand teams have been severly nerfed thanks to the weather nerf.

And they have been nerfed rightfully by Gamefreak, Sand Rush Excadrill with permanent sand is fucking terrible game design, as is related to Swift Swim+Drizzle being complex banned in 5th gen and Belly Drum Azumarill with Aqua Jet being broke as shit with infinite rain. Also have you ever played against a good player using a good sand team or rain team? Weather a more than viable team archetype in 6th generation OU, despite Hail and Sun being both nonexistent and within good reason. Speaking of that I hope Hail and Sun are buffed somehow next year in 7th gen somehow like maybe more effects granted to Fire-types in sun like idk maybe something random like 1/8 health regeneration each turn and for Ice-types they absolutely need 1.5 times damage boosted Ice-type attacks in the Hail and Ice-types also need a ability that's Hail equivalent to Swift Swim and Chlorophyll and a good 'mon to abuse, but I completely digress sorry ahah.

Plus mega aggron benefits from the sand storm as well because he get's a special defense boost unlike mega aggron.

Uhhhhh, this sentence makes no sense whatsoever in so many ways. I'm assuming you meant Aggron-M gets a SpD boost in the sand but Steelix-M doesn't, but that's not even true as I assume you are unaware of the fact that Mega Aggron loses its secondary Rock-typing that plagues normal Aggron. Heck, if Mega Aggron kept its secondary Rock-type, then we'd probably be arguing about whether or not Mega Aggron has a niche over Mega Steelix and not vice versa.

On top of that mega aggron has filter to weaken fire and ground type attacks, more support options in thunder wave, and less weaknesses than mega steelix.

I don't know if literally every single person somehow misreads what I've already repeated twice or if people are altogether not reading it, but I myself said Mega Aggron competely outclasses Mega Steelix defensively. However, you'd have to be insane to say Mega Steelix still is not a defensive behemoth. On top of that, you said Mega Aggron has "more support options in Thunder Wave," but that's literally one more support option, not more support options and I can't think of any viable support move that Aggron learns and Steelix does not based off of memory, although you can prove me wrong if I am.

I'm not saying that mega steelix shouldn't get an analysis, but from what I've gathered I see no reason to use mega steelix over mega aggron.

Well, I've presented all necessary information to show that there is a reason to use Mega Steelix over Mega Aggron, so now its up to you to be persuaded or not.

 

[havokchomp123]

I actually completely agree, but a viable niche in the OU metagame is a viable niche in the OU metagame and that should warrant an OU analysis.

If you're trying to indicate some kind of point, no I don't see where you're going with this because you did nothing more than list possible benefits of sand.

And they have been nerfed rightfully by Gamefreak, Sand Rush Excadrill with permanent sand is fucking terrible game design, as is related to Swift Swim+Drizzle being complex banned in 5th gen and Belly Drum Azumarill with Aqua Jet being broke as shit with infinite rain. Also have you ever played against a good player using a good sand team or rain team? Weather a more than viable team archetype in 6th generation OU, despite Hail and Sun being both nonexistent and within good reason. Speaking of that I hope Hail and Sun are buffed somehow next year in 7th gen somehow like maybe more effects granted to Fire-types in sun like idk maybe something random like 1/8 health regeneration each turn and for Ice-types they absolutely need 1.5 times damage boosted Ice-type attacks in the Hail and Ice-types also need a ability that's Hail equivalent to Swift Swim and Chlorophyll and a good 'mon to abuse, but I completely digress sorry ahah.

Uhhhhh, this sentence makes no sense whatsoever in so many ways. I'm assuming you meant Aggron-M gets a SpD boost in the sand but Steelix-M doesn't, but that's not even true as I assume you are unaware of the fact that Mega Aggron loses its secondary Rock-typing that plagues normal Aggron. Heck, if Mega Aggron kept its secondary Rock-type, then we'd probably be arguing about whether or not Mega Aggron has a niche over Mega Steelix and not vice versa.

I don't know if literally every single person somehow misreads what I've already repeated twice or if people are altogether not reading it, but I myself said Mega Aggron competely outclasses Mega Steelix defensively. However, you'd have to be insane to say Mega Steelix still is not a defensive behemoth. On top of that, you said Mega Aggron has "more support options in Thunder Wave," but that's literally one more support option, not more support options and I can't think of any viable support move that Aggron learns and Steelix does not based off of memory, although you can prove me wrong if I am.


Well, I've presented all necessary information to show that there is a reason to use Mega Steelix over Mega Aggron, so now its up to you to be persuaded or not.

A viable niche in the OU metagame doesn't instantly warrant an analysis imo. The niche needs to be not too situational so that the situations aren't few and far between.
I'm stating that all the benefits of sand only last for a certain number of turns, unlike in generation 5, indicating that weather teams are no where near as effective as they were in generation 5 and have been severely limited.
Yes I'm very thankful that weather was nerfed, but that still doesn't change the fact that many pokemon were severly nerfed as a result. The changes are for the better, but this nerf in weather has completely hindered mega stellixs ability, just like how it mega garchomps ability was nerfed too.
Ok I can't really defend what I said here. I guess I was in the mind set that mega aggron still had it's rock type when it mega evolved, which was just stupid mistake on my part. However, aggron's regular typing can be used to handle talonflame with more ease. It's just some food for thought.
Ugggh. Look we know that mega steelix is a huge defensive behemoth, but you know who else is a defensive behemoth, mega aggron. Mega steelix's main advantage is that it as more special defense than mega aggron. However, mega aggron has far less weaknesses than mega steelix along with a better defensive ability. And maybe mega aggron doesn't have more viable support options than mega steelix outside of thunder wave, mega steelix's support based options are all shared with mega aggron who still carries one more option for support.
I'm sorry but i'm not persuaded. Mega Steelix's niche just isn't enough to warrant it being used over mega aggron.

 

[Josh Morales]

Ugggh. Look we know that mega steelix is a huge defensive behemoth, but you know who else is a defensive behemoth, mega aggron.

I've actually already admitted that Mega Aggron completely outclasses Mega Steelix defensively.

Mega steelix's main advantage is that it as more special defense than mega aggron.

this isn't true at all... SpD MAggron doesn't even take that much more damage than SpD MSteelix and MAggron takes SE attacks better too

However, mega aggron has far less weaknesses

It's only one more

than mega steelix along with a better defensive ability.

Do I have to repeat myself again?

And maybe mega aggron doesn't have more viable support options than mega steelix outside of thunder wave, mega steelix's support based options are all shared with mega aggron who still carries one more option for support.

k

The niche needs to be not too situational so that the situations aren't few and far between.

That has to be the case because then its niche wouldn't be considered viable. Have you ever even played with a Tyranitar holding Smooth Stone? In a standard length battle against a standard team(~20 to 25 turns), it's not even remotely difficult to have sand up for the majority of the turns of the battle, if not all but a few turns entirely, and Mega Steelix's niche over Mega Aggron(completely offensively outclassing Mega Aggron in the sand) will present itself nearly every time it enters the battle. Not only that, but say it's a long ass game and your Tyranitar is dead, chances are so is Mega Steelix because just like Mega Aggron, Deo-D, and Goodra they're prone to being KO'd mid game because of the general nature of how they're played; take hits and do your job. And say it's a long ass game against a stall team, then chances are both your Tyranitar and Steelix are both alive. Even if you run out of sand and the battle drags on, Mega Steelix is still by no means deadweight or bad as it can still perform Mega Aggron's role relatively well.

I'm sorry but i'm not persuaded. Mega Steelix's niche just isn't enough to warrant it being used over mega aggron.

Persuading you doesn't even seem to be worth my time anyways since you're not QC and not in charge of approving Mega Steelix for an analysis. So let's just call it a truce, if you have any further rebuttal then either go back and read my previous posts again because you seem to haven't been doing that and so I keep needing to repeat myself, or if you still think you're right after thoroughly analyzing our debate then let's just accept that we are at an impasse.

---

mod edit: please keep it civil, there's no need for inflammatory language.

 

[Alfalfa]

Actually, I have 6-0ed a couple of GOOD teams in the past with Slurpuff. But yeah you cannot expect Slurpuff to 6-0 teams, that shit just doesn't happen.

Here are all the viable OU Pokemon that Azumarill loses to after a BD:

Breloom, other Azumarill (that are faster, but this is a rare case), healthy Greninja, Rotom-W, Dragonite, Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn (if you lack superpower), Skarmory, (Mega)Latios, Sableye, healthy Mew, banded Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, Zapdos, most defensive users of unaware, Celebi, Chesnaught to some degree, Volcanion(?), healthy Megagross, Klefki, Empoleon, Toxicroak, Tentacruel, Mega Aggron, healthy Magnezone, Mega Sceptile, plus anything with sturdy or focus sash still intact and anything that can live an aqua jet and inflict a burn.
Not only that but there are plenty of others that can weaken Azumarill to the point where another Pokemon can come in after the prior one faints and KO Azumarill. ESPECIALLY if Azumarill has been damaged the turn it BDs. 26+ checks.

To be fair, BD Azumarill is meant to be a late-game cleaner not a setup sweeper, so most of these Pokemon are assumed to be at a low enough health to be in OHKO range of aqua jet. But still, that is a LOT of checks. And it limits BD Azumarill to be a late game cleaner most of the time.

Now let's look at all the things Slurpuff loses too after BD (pokemon in bold are guaranteed full stops to Slurpuff in most situations, but the others are kind-of checks but not really)
(Mega)Scizor, Megagross, Sand rush Excadrill in sand, Skarmory, Mega Venusaur, Mega Slowbro (believe it or not Slurpuff has an okay chance to OHKO regular Slowbro after rocks), banded Talonflame, Thundurus (prankster T-wave), scarf keldeo, scarf Kyurem-B, Mega Venusaur, Klefki, Mega Aggron, Sableye (not if you run facade) defensive unaware user, any powerful attacker with focus sash or sturdy still intact, and some other scarfed pokemon. 14+ checks.

Well well well, look at at this, turns out there are LOADS more Pokemon that can stop Azumarill than can stop Slurpuff. Not only that but Slurpuff can beat some of these checks 1 on 1 if his HP is high enough (albeit this doesn't happen often since the check is usually switched in immediately, but still shit happens), and some of his checks can only beat him if equipping a certain item. The banning of Mega Mawile and Aegislash help Slurpuff out a lot.

Slurpuff has his downsides though. When compared to Azumarill, Slurpuff is incredibly one-dimensional and predictable, is weaker offensively and defensively, lacks priority, and is a pain to set up.
But that certainly shouldn't prevent it from receiving an analysis. Blissey is outclassed by Chansey but is still viable and has her uses over her younger sister. Magneton is outclassed by Magnezone but is still viable and has it's uses over Magnezone.
Being outclassed does not automatically make a Pokemon unviable, unless a single Pokemon is outclassed in EVERY POSSIBLE ASPECT by another single Pokemon, which is certainly not the case with Slurpuff.

EDIT: Slurpuff may end up D+ at best, but it won't be rejected.

Many of the threats you mentioned that can check Azumarill will be weakened when it cleans, or not even good checks at all:
*Choice Scarf Magnezone is cleanly OHKOd by a +6 Aqua Jet, and Specs Zone only needs 13% prior damage to be KOd
*Mega Aggron gets worn down really easily, so not being able to OHKO it after Stealth Rock is not that much of an issue
*Chesnaught gets outsped and OHKOd by a +6 Play Rough
*Dragonite cannot even do much to Azumarill without a Choice Band + ThunderPunch or Extremespeed
*Empoleon does not run enough speed to outrun Azumarill, and all standard OU sets get OHKOd by a +6 Play Rough
*Tentacruel can outspeed Azumarill and do a KO an Azumarill below 63% with Sludge Bomb, but otherwise it is getting OHKOd by a +6 Play Rough (physically defensive) after Stealth Rock
*Greninja gets worn down very easily, so saying it needs to be healthy is really just spinning the wheel in your favor
*Skarmory gets OHKOd by a +6 Waterfall. There is Sturdy, but all you need is Stealth Rock and you are good to go.
*Mew gets OHKOd by a +6 Play Rough after Stealth Rock even when Azumarill is burned
*Sableye gets outsped + outprioritized and OHKOd by a +6 Aqua Jet, Mega Sableye with Play Rough.

So basically, all that is left is Kyurem-B, Rotom-W, Ferrothorn, Talonflame, Mega Venusaur, Mega Metagross (which can still lose, since it is easy to wear down), Klefki (which is not always a consistent check because Azumarill can change its speed spreads around), Banded Talonflame, Zapdos, Celebi (which defensive variants cannot always KO Azu after Sitrus Berry), Toxicroak, and Mega Sceptile. Basically, you considered Pokemon that on paper have some quality that may possibly allow them to beat Belly Drum Azumarill, but when it comes to the calculations, most of them lose. In shorter terms, many of these Pokemon you claim check Azumarill lose to it anyways.

 

[Jukain]

The issue with Slurpuff is really that it can't set up. Like at all. I actually tried out Slurpuff like two weeks ago and that was the biggest thing I really came up with. It can't sweep or even threaten the opponent with any degree of consistency because it needs to set up to do anything and it sets up on like practically nothing. Even if it can sweep some unprepared teams it's just not usually worth it, especially with the popularity of Mega Metagross.

Josh Morales the problem I have with Mega Steelix is that it honestly struggles to find much effectiveness, even if you take Mega Aggron out of the picture. It struggles to switch in and is easily forced out by a lot of common Pokemon when it comes in, if you want me to be more specific I will but I'll generalize with like all of the common Water/Fire/Fighting/Ground-types in the tier. Furthermore, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Mega Slowbro, which are very common Pokemon, just come in every time and proceed not to care whatsoever. Gyarados sets up on it. I'd like to see a solid amount of replays of it performing effectively in-battle at a reasonably high level if you want to argue that this isn't the case.

 

[lalala45]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...ns-nor-aegislash.3519695/page-90#post-5831294

Maybe my post about mega steelix awhile back can help support Mega steelix for an analysis? Hopefully it can persuade you guys.

 

[Jukain]

One more thing. Please keep it civil or I'll start handing out infractions; there is no need to be inflammatory. Everyone is just trying to help and if you disagree with their opinion you will even get your point across more effectively if you calmly and rationally explain your position.

 

[Josh Morales]

Josh Morales the problem I have with Mega Steelix is that it honestly struggles to find much effectiveness, even if you take Mega Aggron out of the picture. It struggles to switch in and is easily forced out by a lot of common Pokemon when it comes in, if you want me to be more specific I will but I'll generalize with like all of the common Water/Fire/Fighting/Ground-types in the tier. Furthermore, Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Mega Slowbro, which are very common Pokemon, just come in every time and proceed not to care whatsoever. Gyarados sets up on it. I'd like to see a solid amount of replays of it performing effectively in-battle at a reasonably high level if you want to argue that this isn't the case.

Very well, I guess I will provide empirical evidence after all since it seems necessary. As a lover of theoretical physics I've always been a fan on proof through walls of equation haha. I guess it kinda translates to the fact that I also prefer arguing about these things primarily theoretically and using almost wholly logic and reason. But if experiential examples are necessary for you, I will compose some.

EDIT: I should also add that you say Lando-T beats Mega Steelix 1v1, but Landoge is actually only a check.

-1 252+ Atk Sand Force Steelix Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T in Sand: 247-292 (77.4 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 168-200 (47.4 - 56.4%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO


-1 252+ Atk Sand Force Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T in Sand: 141-166 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 144-170 (40.6 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Landoge can't reliably switch-in depending on Landoge's set and Mega Steelix using either Heavy Slam or Gyro Ball :]

Heavy Slam 2HKOs Scarf Doge too, but Gyro Ball has an OHKO chance if SR is up. Sand Force being activated is also not necessary to 2HKO Lando.

 

[skies]

Jukain it seems the general consensus was yes on Pangoro?

 

[AM]

This is super minor and sort of annoying so Idk if this is some normal thing to do but I wanted to call to your attention this detail.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cobalion.3522199/

140 HP / 112 Atk / 252 Spe = 504 EVs
Spreads for OU use 508 EVs

I think you get the idea.